Why are Tea Partiers opposed to having a safety net?

[Ernie S.]

As many as it takes I guess.

So why has voluntary charity proven inadequate?

Because people have come to rely on government charity. Like any animal, a person will keep coming back to where they got a free meal.

I suppose some would. Seeing how people on welfare live, I would personally do everything in my power to escape it.

That is you. Unfortunately, many on welfare do not believe that. They seem to think I owe them a permanent vacation. I do not.

 

[Avatar4321]

Do you know anyone who would prefer welfare to a decent job? I don't. Maybe I'm lucky. I think the parasites in the system are less of a problem than the conditions that are causing the deterioration of the middle class.

Why do you think anyone is entitled to a "Decent" job? A job is a job. Even if it's unpleasant it's better than taking handouts.

 

[Avatar4321]

So why has voluntary charity proven inadequate?

Where has anyone demonstrated that voluntary charity proved to be inadequate?

Liberals keep saying this, but it's an article of faith among them. It's not a scientific proposition.

It's been a long thread and I'm not surprised you missed this. The Great Depression was the acid test for voluntary charity and it was inadequate.

No it wasnt. The government just assumed control anyway.

 

[JoeNormal]

Where has anyone demonstrated that voluntary charity proved to be inadequate?

Liberals keep saying this, but it's an article of faith among them. It's not a scientific proposition.

It's been a long thread and I'm not surprised you missed this. The Great Depression was the acid test for voluntary charity and it was inadequate.

No it wasnt. The government just assumed control anyway.

If my parents were still alive, you could tell them all about it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Do you know anyone who would prefer welfare to a decent job? I don't. Maybe I'm lucky. I think the parasites in the system are less of a problem than the conditions that are causing the deterioration of the middle class.

Yes. I work with welfare families all the time. And most prefer their government check to making the effort to work at a real job. By the time they buy the clothes they need, payfor transportation, pay taxes, and all the other expenses of working, they figure they come out just about as well with their government benefits.

Very few of us love our jobs enough to work without being paid to work. And if we can get paid pretty much the same whether we work or not, how many of us do you think would choose to work unless they really really loved their job?

Now, IF the government got smart and required recipiients of government charity to do community work for 30 or so hours a week--if they had to undergo the drug tests that are mandatory in much of private industry--in other words were required to merit that government check, I think that private industry job that paid better would start looking a lot better.

The real benefit would be kids that grew up seeing mom and/or dad getting up in the morning, getting cleaned up, making themselves presentable, and going to work to bring home a paycheck. That would be the greatest gift we could ever give those kids.

Have you had experience with former welfare recipients who were required to work or get into a training program? Most, 9 out of 10, develop a towering resentment at being forced to be a slave and work for money. Because they resent being forced to work against their will, they treat co-workers like shit, sabotage the company, and do everything they can to make themselves unacceptable. Then, when they get fired, they were treated unfairly by rich people who don't understand and can't sympathize. They are jusitifiably outraged victims.

Once in a while one will rise to the top and be grateful for the experience.

They didn't get that way all by themselves though. First they were ingrained with an entitlement mentality unitl all sense of pride and satisfaction of accomplishment in one's own ability and efforts was erased. Then yes, being 'forced to work' to receive a paycheck does trigger resentment and anger and resistance and probably destructiveness. (I haven't experience any sabotage, but I sure as heck have experienced the resistance.)

But what has to happen is tough love. They can suck it up and work for what they get--they will follow orders and peform their assigned duties to reasonable standards of quality--or they will be released from the program and will be on their own. And we have to make that stick. I think 99% will eventually come around.

 

[Avatar4321]

It's been a long thread and I'm not surprised you missed this. The Great Depression was the acid test for voluntary charity and it was inadequate.

No it wasnt. The government just assumed control anyway.

If my parents were still alive, you could tell them all about it.

I would.

 

[Pho_King]

If you don't have the money to pay it and you have medical equipment that requires electricity and that you require to stay alive - then I've no trouble with my tax dollars subsidizing your expense, or with the law requiring the electric monopoly do so (at ultimate expense to paying customers).





Well its gotta be eithe all or nothing, right? Either we're all 100% responsible for everyone else - or we're 0% responsible for everyone else. Its gotta be that way because anyway in between would just be way to complex and it would blow your tiny little brain to bits.

And that is what is known as your PERSONAL CHOICE to be that generous to someone or some cause or some situation....

it is NOT a responsibility of citizen X to pay for the responsibilities, debts, wants, needs, loans, or whatever of citizen Y... it is inherently against the concept of personal freedom, private property, and liberty...

You are just too brainwashed and idiotic (or quite frankly just one of the lazy) to accept that with freedoms come positives and negatives... and with your freedom to succeed comes the freedom to fail.. and it is ALL on you.... not everyone else and not a nanny state

Can you make a policy based argument at all or does EVERYTHING come down to pure idealogy for you people? It gets old after a while.


Let me make it a bit clearer to your limited understanding. If those in need can not get the help they need, their children are more likely to grow up to become criminals who can't hold down a job. When someone with no resources is facing death by starvation, they will steal food to live. If they steal it from your house, they will either be successful and you will have your home broken into - or you will shoot them dead and blood leaves a very, very nasty stain and the cops will be all up in your business


Have you ever been out of the country?

what does welfare have to do with that? Why do you think those families are in such need? And why do you think that need lasts generations? maybe its because they are not given enough...

liberals are idiots.

 

[Pho_King]

Why don't you tell me about the time the government came after you, guns loaded and hauled you away.

I take it that you're a small business owner? Here's an example of how a corporation will eventually harm you. One of my in-laws owned a video rental business at a time when that industry was exploding and he was lucky enough to be located in an area that was growing like crazy. Things were good for a while during the golden years when he was beneath the radar of Blockbuster and Hollywood Video. Then the big guys came in. Now, he does whatever odd jobs a man in his 70's can do and ekes out a living that's about 10% of what it was back in the day.

What was preventing your in-law from becoming onf of the bigger corporations providing video services to the community? Why exactly are blockbuster or hollywood videos bad for providing a better service to the community than your in-law did?

Im sure you are familiar with the current dvd business structure. Netflixs and RedBox nearly put Blockbuster out of business (Blockbuster has since changed their model to reflect the changing market). why? Because Netflix & RedBox provided a better services to customers. Of course, Netflix has fumbled on that and is losing business now. But business is dynamic. It's all about who can provide the best and cheapest goods or services to others.

In his case, I think he started believing that he had the Midas touch. His intial success was relatively easy, he figured the gravy train would keep rolling for him in one way or another. When he saw that the video business was starting to go to the big guys, he bought a hair cutting franchise which he was clearly not cut out for.

Yet you claimed it was BIG CORPORATIONS that did his business in. What a genius.

 

[JoeNormal]

What was preventing your in-law from becoming onf of the bigger corporations providing video services to the community? Why exactly are blockbuster or hollywood videos bad for providing a better service to the community than your in-law did?

Im sure you are familiar with the current dvd business structure. Netflixs and RedBox nearly put Blockbuster out of business (Blockbuster has since changed their model to reflect the changing market). why? Because Netflix & RedBox provided a better services to customers. Of course, Netflix has fumbled on that and is losing business now. But business is dynamic. It's all about who can provide the best and cheapest goods or services to others.

In his case, I think he started believing that he had the Midas touch. His intial success was relatively easy, he figured the gravy train would keep rolling for him in one way or another. When he saw that the video business was starting to go to the big guys, he bought a hair cutting franchise which he was clearly not cut out for.

Yet you claimed it was BIG CORPORATIONS that did his business in. What a genius.

His story is indicative of small businesses everywhere in America. I don't expect the status quo to remain in place in every industry forever but the corporations have agressively taken aim on nearly every business model a mom and pop could pull off.

The funny thing is, he also fits the profile of a Tea Partier. One of your common conceptions is that wealth and freedom are yours for the taking in this land where the streets are paved with gold. Nobody fails if they just work long and hard enough and the corporations just make life great for everybody (well, he might not believe that part so much any longer).

 

[JoeNormal]

No it wasnt. The government just assumed control anyway.

If my parents were still alive, you could tell them all about it.

I would.

They lived through it and I think they'd tell you that you're full of shit.

 

[Oddball]

Please explain why MY tax dollars should fund a road and highway for you?

the disucssion is not about highways, roads, or other services.

No one here has even suggested that there are no uses for state governments.

Do try and focus and comprehend what is being discussed.

Why should government fund toll free roads for all?

They do...They're funded by federal and state fuel taxes, which are paid by those who use them.

BTW, if you ride your bicycle and buy no fuel, you're using the roads for free.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

the disucssion is not about highways, roads, or other services.

No one here has even suggested that there are no uses for state governments.

Do try and focus and comprehend what is being discussed.

Why should government fund toll free roads for all?

They do...They're funded by federal and state fuel taxes, which are paid by those who use them.

BTW, if you ride your bicycle and buy no fuel, you're using the roads for free.

Actuallya significant portion of the funds spent on highways comes from sources OTHER than user fees.

See for yourself:
Table FA-5 - Highway Statistics 2009 - FHWA

You'll see that in 2009, the "Total Funds Administered By FHWA" included about 27% that came out of the general budget (NOT user fees)


So bicyclists who pay any income tax in fact are not getting the road for free.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

And that is what is known as your PERSONAL CHOICE to be that generous to someone or some cause or some situation....

it is NOT a responsibility of citizen X to pay for the responsibilities, debts, wants, needs, loans, or whatever of citizen Y... it is inherently against the concept of personal freedom, private property, and liberty...

You are just too brainwashed and idiotic (or quite frankly just one of the lazy) to accept that with freedoms come positives and negatives... and with your freedom to succeed comes the freedom to fail.. and it is ALL on you.... not everyone else and not a nanny state

Can you make a policy based argument at all or does EVERYTHING come down to pure idealogy for you people? It gets old after a while.


Let me make it a bit clearer to your limited understanding. If those in need can not get the help they need, their children are more likely to grow up to become criminals who can't hold down a job. When someone with no resources is facing death by starvation, they will steal food to live. If they steal it from your house, they will either be successful and you will have your home broken into - or you will shoot them dead and blood leaves a very, very nasty stain and the cops will be all up in your business


Have you ever been out of the country?

what does welfare have to do with that? Why do you think those families are in such need? And why do you think that need lasts generations? maybe its because they are not given enough...

liberals are idiots.

Do you honestly think the answer to those questions would fit on in a single message?

 

[Oddball]

Why should government fund toll free roads for all?

They do...They're funded by federal and state fuel taxes, which are paid by those who use them.

BTW, if you ride your bicycle and buy no fuel, you're using the roads for free.

Actuallya significant portion of the funds spent on highways comes from sources OTHER than user fees.

See for yourself:
Table FA-5 - Highway Statistics 2009 - FHWA

You'll see that in 2009, the "Total Funds Administered By FHWA" included about 27% that came out of the general budget (NOT user fees)


So bicyclists who pay any income tax in fact are not getting the road for free.

That's federal dollars...A significant amount of funding also comes from state fuel taxes.

Also, nearly all the amount that comes out of the federal general fund ends up thrown at urban mass transit scams, that too few people use to meet the costs of operation.

 

[DiamondDave]

And that is what is known as your PERSONAL CHOICE to be that generous to someone or some cause or some situation....

it is NOT a responsibility of citizen X to pay for the responsibilities, debts, wants, needs, loans, or whatever of citizen Y... it is inherently against the concept of personal freedom, private property, and liberty...

You are just too brainwashed and idiotic (or quite frankly just one of the lazy) to accept that with freedoms come positives and negatives... and with your freedom to succeed comes the freedom to fail.. and it is ALL on you.... not everyone else and not a nanny state

Can you make a policy based argument at all or does EVERYTHING come down to pure idealogy for you people? It gets old after a while.


Let me make it a bit clearer to your limited understanding. If those in need can not get the help they need, their children are more likely to grow up to become criminals who can't hold down a job. When someone with no resources is facing death by starvation, they will steal food to live. If they steal it from your house, they will either be successful and you will have your home broken into - or you will shoot them dead and blood leaves a very, very nasty stain and the cops will be all up in your business


Have you ever been out of the country?

what does welfare have to do with that? Why do you think those families are in such need? And why do you think that need lasts generations? maybe its because they are not given enough...

liberals are idiots.

He's a troll.. not just an idiot

 

[DiamondDave]

So why has voluntary charity proven inadequate?

Where has anyone demonstrated that voluntary charity proved to be inadequate?

Liberals keep saying this, but it's an article of faith among them. It's not a scientific proposition.

It helps them justify, within themselves, their greed hatred and envy

 

[Intense]

I am for voluntary safety nets... I fully support charity

But nobody owes you anything for your personal wants or needs.. you, as an adult, are responsible for your own upkeep, food, lodging, etc....

And how many soap box talking points are you going to try and string together in one mini-paragraph??

As many as it takes I guess.

So why has voluntary charity proven inadequate?

Has it??? If anything is inadequate, it might be more related to your Faith. Let me ask you..... What do you do personally to make a difference?

 

[MuadDib]

The state of omg..lol? Never heard of it. Must be a new state for teabaggers who like the socialism they get but hate the socialism others get.

LOL, you're a joke
Maybe you should look up what it is our Federal and State Goverments are SUPPOSE to do with OUR TAX DOLLARS..

Sure, just as soon as you tell me which state you live in that gets no federal highway funds.

 

[DiamondDave]

I am for voluntary safety nets... I fully support charity

But nobody owes you anything for your personal wants or needs.. you, as an adult, are responsible for your own upkeep, food, lodging, etc....

And how many soap box talking points are you going to try and string together in one mini-paragraph??

As many as it takes I guess.

So why has voluntary charity proven inadequate?

Has it??? If anything is inadequate, it might be more related to your Faith. Let me ask you..... What do you do personally to make a difference?

I think the answer is obvious.. Vote for those who would enact more confiscation to make himself feel charitable

 

[DiamondDave]

I kinda think this sums it up....

It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-righteous bullying laziness.

People need to be fed, medicated, educated, clothed, and sheltered, and if we’re compassionate we’ll help them, but you get no moral credit for forcing other people to do what you think is right. There is great joy in helping people, but no joy in doing it at gunpoint.
-Penn Jillette