Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel?

[georgephillip]

So, have we figured out yet that the OP is bullshit?

That there is a NET migration rate favorable to Israel?

Has anybody produced a 5- or 10-year pattern-analysis graph yet, with a focus on Jews only, showing...

2012 - Arrivals - Departures - Net gain or loss - Percent of population
2011 - Arrivals - Departures - Net gain or loss - Percent of population
2010 - Arrivals - Departures - Net gain or loss - Percent of Population
2009 - Arrivals - Departures - Net gain or loss - Percent of Population
2008 - Arrivals - Departures - Net gain or loss - Percent of Population
...
2003 - Arrivals - Departures - Net gain or loss - Percent of Population

...so that we may see whether there is truly a trend, and so that we may see whether the figure is truly statistically significant or not?

Didn't think so.

False alarm.

Much ado about nothing.

Kindly point out the words "net migration rate" in the OP or admit the insignificance of your latest false alarm.

"However, sober research showed that emigration has actually decreased during the last few years. Polls show that the majority of Israelis, including even a majority of Arab citizens, are satisfied with their economic situation – more than in most European nations."

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Go back and look at my Post No. 10 in this series...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/320058-why-are-so-many-jews-leaving-israel.html#post8037047

Net Migration Rate, measured over time, is the basis for judging whether your claim (so many Jews are leaving Israel) is accurate or not.

The example that I gave [ Arrivals - Departures = Net Migration Rate ] is the only metric that can give us an objective, unbiased portrayal of whether more Jews are coming or leaving [ Net Migration Rate ].

Given your failure to recognize that simple proofing tool, I take it that you did not do well in Math, in school.

Until you can demonstrate your claim factually and objectively, your claim will continue to be viewed for what it is - a false alarm.

Your inability to comprehend simple English apparently prevents you from discovering my OP mentioned absolutely nothing about Net Migration Rates while presenting a fairly simple question you overlooked (if you even bothered to read Avnery's article)

Why are so many Jews leaving Israel?

"Israel declares itself to be 'the State of the Jewish People'. Jews all over the world are considered de facto Israeli nationals. But if there is no basic difference between a Jew in Haifa and a Jew in Hamburg, why stay in Haifa when life in Hamburg seems to be so much better?"

What's your answer?

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[Kondor3]

"...What's your answer?..."

Oh, you don't want to deal in hard data; which supports a favorable Net Immigration Rate rather than a Net Emigation Rate...

You just want to zoom-in on the anti-Israeli soft-and-fuzzies served-up by an Israeli Peacenik and his badly-supported anecdotal Op-Ed piece about reasons why a shrinking number of Jews choose to leave their country...

It's horseshit, as it the media on which it's printed.

Typical Leftist-Globalist weak segue for more anti-Israel monkey-poo tossing...

I should have known that you would not want to talk about Net Migration Rates because that cancels-out much of what your boy has to say - as anything worth bothering over, anyway...

Silly me...

 

[georgephillip]

"...What's your answer?..."

Oh, you don't want to deal in hard data; which supports a favorable Net Immigration Rate rather than a Net Emigation Rate...

You just want to zoom-in on the anti-Israeli soft-and-fuzzies served-up by an Israeli Peacenik and his badly-supported anecdotal Op-Ed piece about reasons why a shrinking number of Jews choose to leave their country...

It's horseshit, as it the media on which it's printed.

Typical Leftist-Globalist weak segue for more anti-Israel monkey-poo tossing...

I should have known that you would not want to talk about Net Migration Rates because that cancels-out much of what your boy has to say - as anything worth bothering over, anyway...

Silly me...

So why are so many Jews leaving Israel, Silly?
Sucks to be stupid...

 

[Kondor3]

"...So why are so many Jews leaving Israel, Silly? Sucks to be stupid..."

In order for such a statement to be accepted as a truism...

1. one must first quantify 'so many' - what are these threshholds - how many Jews in a 'so many'?

2. one must first quantify that portion of the 'so many' whose motives are verifiably attributable to those cited by the author

3. one must first quantify that subset of the 'so many' as statistically significant vis a vis the population at large

4. one must first quantify the increase in the size of that subset of the 'so many' by making comparisons to the disaffected spanning several years or a decade or more, in order to undertake an objective trend analysis

I have not seen any of this from your boy, or you...

There is no other way to legitimize the claim...

Never mind factoring-in the really complicated stuff like simple Net Migration Rates, which may be too complex an addition to the mix, to avoid confusing tiny little minds...

Without (1) through (4), your boy's speculation is just so much hot air, anecdotal and entirely unreliable and partisan in nature, from a tiny sampling deck, and absolutely useless as a Broad Generalization...

A False Alarm...

It is, indeed, difficult for me to deal with my own occasional stupidity...

The handicaps under which YOU apparently labor in dealing with Statistical Validity and Trend Analysis are enough to make me shudder and want to send you a Condolence Card through the Mods here... poor soul.

 

[georgephillip]

"...So why are so many Jews leaving Israel, Silly? Sucks to be stupid..."

In order for such a statement to be accepted as a truism...

1. one must first quantify 'so many' - what are these threshholds - how many Jews in a 'so many'?

2. one must first quantify that portion of the 'so many' whose motives are verifiably attributable to those cited by the author

3. one must first quantify that subset of the 'so many' as statistically significant vis a vis the population at large

4. one must first quantify the increase in the size of that subset of the 'so many' by making comparisons to the disaffected spanning several years or a decade or more, in order to undertake an objective trend analysis

I have not seen any of this from your boy, or you...

There is no other way to legitimize the claim...

Never mind factoring-in the really complicated stuff like simple Net Migration Rates, which may be too complex an addition to the mix, to avoid confusing tiny little minds...

Without (1) through (4), your boy's speculation is just so much hot air, anecdotal and entirely unreliable and partisan in nature, from a tiny sampling deck, and absolutely useless as a Broad Generalization...

A False Alarm...

It is, indeed, difficult for me to deal with my own occasional stupidity...

The handicaps under which YOU apparently labor in dealing with Statistical Validity and Trend Analysis are enough to make me shudder and want to send you a Condolence Card through the Mods here... poor soul.

What "statement" are you imagining here?
I'm dealing with a question from the OP asking the following:
Why are so many Jews leaving Israel?
There's no need for any amateur-night statistical windmills or psudo-intellectual red herrings who don't hunt (mixed metaphorically speaking) Possibly, you should put aside your partisan bias and actually read Anvery's arguments:

"'Descenders' (Yordim) is the Hebrew term for emigrants. People coming to live in Israel are called 'ascenders' (Olim), a term akin to pilgrims. Probably the word has something to do with the fact that Jerusalem is located on a hill surrounded on all sides by valleys, so that you have to 'go up' to reach it. But of course there is an ideological Zionist connotation to the terms.

"Before the founding of our state and during its first few decades, we saw ourselves as a heroic society, struggling against great odds, fighting several wars. People leaving us were looked upon as deserters, like soldiers running away from their unit during a battle. Yitzhak Rabin called them 'trash'.

"What made the TV story so frightening was that it showed ordinary middle-class young Israeli families settling for good in Berlin, London and New Jersey. Some of their children were already speaking foreign languages, abandoning Hebrew. Terrible..."

"Until lately, 'descending' was mostly attributed to misfits, lower-class people and others who could not find their place in ordinary society. But here were normal, well-educated young couples, Israeli-born, speaking good Hebrew. Their general complaint – sounding rather like an apology – was that they could not “end the month” in Israel, that their middle-class salaries did not suffice for a decent living, because salaries are too low and prices too high. They singled out the prices of apartments. The price of an apartment in Tel Aviv is equivalent to 120 months’ average middle class income."

What do you suppose inspires "normal. well educated couples. Israeli born, speaking good Hebrew" to descend from Zion?

"THE SUDDEN disillusion caused Israelis to take a hard look at Israeli academia. It appears that our standards are slipping all along the line. Our universities are under-funded by the government, the number of professors and their quality decreasing. High-school students are slipping in their exams.

"Why?

"Immense funds are swallowed by the army, whose demands grow from year to year, though our security situation is improving all the time.

"Our eternal occupation of the Palestinian territories is a drain on our meager resources. So are the settlements, of course. Our government invests in them huge sums of money. The exact amounts are a state secret.

"In the long run, a small country with limited resources cannot sustain a huge army, as well as an occupation regime and hundreds of settlements, without depriving everything else. One single fighter plane costs more than a school or a hospital or a laboratory.

"BUT MY worry about emigration is not limited to material considerations.

"People do not leave for material reasons only. They may think that they are emigrating because life in Berlin is cheaper than in Tel Aviv, apartments easier to find, salaries higher. But it is not only the strength of the attraction of foreign lands that counts – it is also the strength or weakness of the bond to the homeland."

In simple concepts, so many Jews are leaving Israel because of the illegal Occupation of Palestine.

Feel free to continue manufacturing statistical straw men if you're still incapable of responding intelligently to the OP.

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

 

[ForeverYoung436]

"...So why are so many Jews leaving Israel, Silly? Sucks to be stupid..."

In order for such a statement to be accepted as a truism...

1. one must first quantify 'so many' - what are these threshholds - how many Jews in a 'so many'?

2. one must first quantify that portion of the 'so many' whose motives are verifiably attributable to those cited by the author

3. one must first quantify that subset of the 'so many' as statistically significant vis a vis the population at large

4. one must first quantify the increase in the size of that subset of the 'so many' by making comparisons to the disaffected spanning several years or a decade or more, in order to undertake an objective trend analysis

I have not seen any of this from your boy, or you...

There is no other way to legitimize the claim...

Never mind factoring-in the really complicated stuff like simple Net Migration Rates, which may be too complex an addition to the mix, to avoid confusing tiny little minds...

Without (1) through (4), your boy's speculation is just so much hot air, anecdotal and entirely unreliable and partisan in nature, from a tiny sampling deck, and absolutely useless as a Broad Generalization...

A False Alarm...

It is, indeed, difficult for me to deal with my own occasional stupidity...

The handicaps under which YOU apparently labor in dealing with Statistical Validity and Trend Analysis are enough to make me shudder and want to send you a Condolence Card through the Mods here... poor soul.

What "statement" are you imagining here?
I'm dealing with a question from the OP asking the following:
Why are so many Jews leaving Israel?
There's no need for any amateur-night statistical windmills or psudo-intellectual red herrings who don't hunt (mixed metaphorically speaking) Possibly, you should put aside your partisan bias and actually read Anvery's arguments:

"'Descenders' (Yordim) is the Hebrew term for emigrants. People coming to live in Israel are called 'ascenders' (Olim), a term akin to pilgrims. Probably the word has something to do with the fact that Jerusalem is located on a hill surrounded on all sides by valleys, so that you have to 'go up' to reach it. But of course there is an ideological Zionist connotation to the terms.

"Before the founding of our state and during its first few decades, we saw ourselves as a heroic society, struggling against great odds, fighting several wars. People leaving us were looked upon as deserters, like soldiers running away from their unit during a battle. Yitzhak Rabin called them 'trash'.

"What made the TV story so frightening was that it showed ordinary middle-class young Israeli families settling for good in Berlin, London and New Jersey. Some of their children were already speaking foreign languages, abandoning Hebrew. Terrible..."

"Until lately, 'descending' was mostly attributed to misfits, lower-class people and others who could not find their place in ordinary society. But here were normal, well-educated young couples, Israeli-born, speaking good Hebrew. Their general complaint – sounding rather like an apology – was that they could not “end the month” in Israel, that their middle-class salaries did not suffice for a decent living, because salaries are too low and prices too high. They singled out the prices of apartments. The price of an apartment in Tel Aviv is equivalent to 120 months’ average middle class income."

What do you suppose inspires "normal. well educated couples. Israeli born, speaking good Hebrew" to descend from Zion?

"THE SUDDEN disillusion caused Israelis to take a hard look at Israeli academia. It appears that our standards are slipping all along the line. Our universities are under-funded by the government, the number of professors and their quality decreasing. High-school students are slipping in their exams.

"Why?

"Immense funds are swallowed by the army, whose demands grow from year to year, though our security situation is improving all the time.

"Our eternal occupation of the Palestinian territories is a drain on our meager resources. So are the settlements, of course. Our government invests in them huge sums of money. The exact amounts are a state secret.

"In the long run, a small country with limited resources cannot sustain a huge army, as well as an occupation regime and hundreds of settlements, without depriving everything else. One single fighter plane costs more than a school or a hospital or a laboratory.

"BUT MY worry about emigration is not limited to material considerations.

"People do not leave for material reasons only. They may think that they are emigrating because life in Berlin is cheaper than in Tel Aviv, apartments easier to find, salaries higher. But it is not only the strength of the attraction of foreign lands that counts – it is also the strength or weakness of the bond to the homeland."

In simple concepts, so many Jews are leaving Israel because of the illegal Occupation of Palestine.

Feel free to continue manufacturing statistical straw men if you're still incapable of responding intelligently to the OP.

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Many Israelis do leave because they want to make more money someplace else, where they don't have to serve in the army or suffer terror. They are the ones who are brought up without Zionist values or are totally secular. That's why it's refreshing to see posters like Lipush on here.

 

[High_Gravity]

Some Jews leave, than some more from other places move in. Whats the problem here? is there some kind of pipe dream that all the Israelis are moving away?

 

[Kondor3]

"...Many Israelis do leave because they want to make more money someplace else, where they don't have to serve in the army or suffer terror. They are the ones who are brought up without Zionist values or are totally secular. That's why it's refreshing to see posters like Lipush on here."

And, as HG has pointed out, so long as there is no particular Net Loss with respect to Immigration, we are not looking at 'so many' after all, nor is the departure of those more self-centered ones likely to prove much of a loss to Israel herself, in the larger scheme of things...

 

[Kondor3]

"...In simple concepts, so many Jews are leaving Israel because of the illegal Occupation of Palestine. Feel free to continue manufacturing statistical straw men if you're still incapable of responding intelligently to the OP..."

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel because they object to Israel's handling of the Palestinian conflict...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel because of the economic situation...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel to escape military service...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel to find better-paying jobs elsewhere...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel to escape Palestinian rocket barrages and terror attacks...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel to join family permanently living elsewhere...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel to go to school elsewhere...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel to find a new start after going bust...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel because they're tired of the sand fleas...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel to find better pizza take-out places and Italian restaurants...

I'm sure there are Jews leaving Israel because it's Thursday and their mother is wearing a blue dress...

Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of reasons, and it seems likely that more leave for economic and career and educational and family and draft-dodging reasons than anything else...

There are certainly Jews who leave Israel because they object to Israel's part in the Palestinian conflict but we (your boy, or you) have no solid numbers on those...

So, until you can quantify your claim, it remains speculative and anecdotal and unproven, and an obvious excuse and and cheap segue for anti-Israeli propagandizing...

How many Jews in a 'so many'?

Or, in truth, is it only a relative handful, compared to total emigration or total population, and this whole thing is a False Alarm?

No straw-man tactics necessary...

It's the way the Real World works...

The truth of the matter is that you are tossing-out an anecdotal and arbitrary statement, derived from an op-ed piece, based upon a microscopically tiny personal sampling base, and expect it to be accepted as fact, without being challenged...

The Real World doesn't work like that...

You continue to dodge the Substantiation Challenge because you know damned well that you cannot substantiate your (or your boy's) claim...

You can't even come close...

Challenging the OP's premise of large-scale ('so many') emigration for that reason IS commenting intelligently upon it, not that you'd notice...

For me, it is enough to gladly concede (quite some time ago) that some Jews leave Israel because they object to their government's handling of the Palestinian conflict, while taking satisfaction that your claims are so specious and vague that the true numbers might be no different than the number of Jews leaving Israel in search of better pizza take-out joints...

A cheap propaganda sortie and about as sloppy as sloppy can get...

Pfffffttt...

 

[High_Gravity]

"...Many Israelis do leave because they want to make more money someplace else, where they don't have to serve in the army or suffer terror. They are the ones who are brought up without Zionist values or are totally secular. That's why it's refreshing to see posters like Lipush on here."

And, as HG has pointed out, so long as there is no particular Net Loss with respect to Immigration, we are not looking at 'so many' after all, nor is the departure of those more self-centered ones likely to prove much of a loss to Israel herself, in the larger scheme of things...

Israel is the only first world nation in the region so they attract new immigrants every day, the rest of those countries are shit holes.

 

[georgephillip]

In order for such a statement to be accepted as a truism...

1. one must first quantify 'so many' - what are these threshholds - how many Jews in a 'so many'?

2. one must first quantify that portion of the 'so many' whose motives are verifiably attributable to those cited by the author

3. one must first quantify that subset of the 'so many' as statistically significant vis a vis the population at large

4. one must first quantify the increase in the size of that subset of the 'so many' by making comparisons to the disaffected spanning several years or a decade or more, in order to undertake an objective trend analysis

I have not seen any of this from your boy, or you...

There is no other way to legitimize the claim...

Never mind factoring-in the really complicated stuff like simple Net Migration Rates, which may be too complex an addition to the mix, to avoid confusing tiny little minds...

Without (1) through (4), your boy's speculation is just so much hot air, anecdotal and entirely unreliable and partisan in nature, from a tiny sampling deck, and absolutely useless as a Broad Generalization...

A False Alarm...

It is, indeed, difficult for me to deal with my own occasional stupidity...

The handicaps under which YOU apparently labor in dealing with Statistical Validity and Trend Analysis are enough to make me shudder and want to send you a Condolence Card through the Mods here... poor soul.

What "statement" are you imagining here?
I'm dealing with a question from the OP asking the following:
Why are so many Jews leaving Israel?
There's no need for any amateur-night statistical windmills or psudo-intellectual red herrings who don't hunt (mixed metaphorically speaking) Possibly, you should put aside your partisan bias and actually read Anvery's arguments:

"'Descenders' (Yordim) is the Hebrew term for emigrants. People coming to live in Israel are called 'ascenders' (Olim), a term akin to pilgrims. Probably the word has something to do with the fact that Jerusalem is located on a hill surrounded on all sides by valleys, so that you have to 'go up' to reach it. But of course there is an ideological Zionist connotation to the terms.

"Before the founding of our state and during its first few decades, we saw ourselves as a heroic society, struggling against great odds, fighting several wars. People leaving us were looked upon as deserters, like soldiers running away from their unit during a battle. Yitzhak Rabin called them 'trash'.

"What made the TV story so frightening was that it showed ordinary middle-class young Israeli families settling for good in Berlin, London and New Jersey. Some of their children were already speaking foreign languages, abandoning Hebrew. Terrible..."

"Until lately, 'descending' was mostly attributed to misfits, lower-class people and others who could not find their place in ordinary society. But here were normal, well-educated young couples, Israeli-born, speaking good Hebrew. Their general complaint – sounding rather like an apology – was that they could not “end the month” in Israel, that their middle-class salaries did not suffice for a decent living, because salaries are too low and prices too high. They singled out the prices of apartments. The price of an apartment in Tel Aviv is equivalent to 120 months’ average middle class income."

What do you suppose inspires "normal. well educated couples. Israeli born, speaking good Hebrew" to descend from Zion?

"THE SUDDEN disillusion caused Israelis to take a hard look at Israeli academia. It appears that our standards are slipping all along the line. Our universities are under-funded by the government, the number of professors and their quality decreasing. High-school students are slipping in their exams.

"Why?

"Immense funds are swallowed by the army, whose demands grow from year to year, though our security situation is improving all the time.

"Our eternal occupation of the Palestinian territories is a drain on our meager resources. So are the settlements, of course. Our government invests in them huge sums of money. The exact amounts are a state secret.

"In the long run, a small country with limited resources cannot sustain a huge army, as well as an occupation regime and hundreds of settlements, without depriving everything else. One single fighter plane costs more than a school or a hospital or a laboratory.

"BUT MY worry about emigration is not limited to material considerations.

"People do not leave for material reasons only. They may think that they are emigrating because life in Berlin is cheaper than in Tel Aviv, apartments easier to find, salaries higher. But it is not only the strength of the attraction of foreign lands that counts – it is also the strength or weakness of the bond to the homeland."

In simple concepts, so many Jews are leaving Israel because of the illegal Occupation of Palestine.

Feel free to continue manufacturing statistical straw men if you're still incapable of responding intelligently to the OP.

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Many Israelis do leave because they want to make more money someplace else, where they don't have to serve in the army or suffer terror. They are the ones who are brought up without Zionist values or are totally secular. That's why it's refreshing to see posters like Lipush on here.

Is this among the "Zionist values" you mean?

"There can be no voluntary agreement between ourselves and the Palestine Arabs. Not now, nor in the prospective future. I say this with such conviction, not because I want to hurt the moderate Zionists. I do not believe that they will be hurt. Except for those who were born blind, they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting 'Palestine' from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish majority."

"The Iron Wall" | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[MHunterB]

Kindly point out the words "net migration rate" in the OP or admit the insignificance of your latest false alarm.

"However, sober research showed that emigration has actually decreased during the last few years. Polls show that the majority of Israelis, including even a majority of Arab citizens, are satisfied with their economic situation – more than in most European nations."

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Go back and look at my Post No. 10 in this series...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/320058-why-are-so-many-jews-leaving-israel.html#post8037047

Net Migration Rate, measured over time, is the basis for judging whether your claim (so many Jews are leaving Israel) is accurate or not.

The example that I gave [ Arrivals - Departures = Net Migration Rate ] is the only metric that can give us an objective, unbiased portrayal of whether more Jews are coming or leaving [ Net Migration Rate ].

Given your failure to recognize that simple proofing tool, I take it that you did not do well in Math, in school.

Until you can demonstrate your claim factually and objectively, your claim will continue to be viewed for what it is - a false alarm.

Your inability to comprehend simple English apparently prevents you from discovering my OP mentioned absolutely nothing about Net Migration Rates while presenting a fairly simple question you overlooked (if you even bothered to read Avnery's article)

Why are so many Jews leaving Israel?

"Israel declares itself to be 'the State of the Jewish People'. Jews all over the world are considered de facto Israeli nationals. But if there is no basic difference between a Jew in Haifa and a Jew in Hamburg, why stay in Haifa when life in Hamburg seems to be so much better?"

What's your answer?

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The sentence in bold is a falsehood. It does not accurately reflect the 'Right of Return' law - which of course is by no means limited to Israel.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Is this among the "Zionist values" you mean?..."

Cold, hard, farseeing and accurate pragmatism.

No pussyfooting around.

The goal is not exactly a secret, is it?

One subset of Israelis want it all.

One subset of Israelis want a piece of it.

In truth, the Israelis can have it all, any time they like.

Wouldn't take more than a few weeks of concentrated assault with high-tech systems to flush the remaining pockets and push the refugees across the borders.

The Israelis have had that capability for many years now, but refrain, for four reasons...

1. wanting to avoid another expensive Israeli-Arab war

2. wanting to avoid any short-to-medium -term negative effects from the rest of the world

3. the dominance of the 'we only want a piece of it' crowd within Israel

4. genuine humanitarian reasons

Given that all of Israel's Muslim-Arab neighbor-countries are in tatters - greatly weakened and in no position to go to war, for years, if not more, we can rule-out (1) for the moment as a dominant factor in Israeli thinking.

That leaves (2) and (3) and (4).

The Israelis have gone it alone before and aren't terribly afraid of (2).

That leaves (3) and (4).

You had better hope that the faction within Israel which only wants a piece, continues to be dominant in their collective thinking...

You had better hope that you do not push them so far that their pitiless faction gets the upper hand...

The Israelis hold all the cards in this one, so, it's their call...

There is a far better chance of the Israelis 'doing the right thing' in connection with sharing the land than there is with their Muslim-Arab counterparts...

Of course, a much smaller portion of the land belonged to the Jews in 1948 before this relationship calcified, but...

Victory on the battlefield has a marvelous way of sorting out all that old shit...

Methinks the Muslim-Arab Palestinians should have been looking to make the best of a bad situation and agreed to sharing the land, while there was still time to do it right, and save themselves years (decades) of negative consequences for such bad decision-making...

The Palestinians are now paying the price for their folly...

 

[georgephillip]

Go back and look at my Post No. 10 in this series...

http://www.usmessageboard.com/israel-and-palestine/320058-why-are-so-many-jews-leaving-israel.html#post8037047

Net Migration Rate, measured over time, is the basis for judging whether your claim (so many Jews are leaving Israel) is accurate or not.

The example that I gave [ Arrivals - Departures = Net Migration Rate ] is the only metric that can give us an objective, unbiased portrayal of whether more Jews are coming or leaving [ Net Migration Rate ].

Given your failure to recognize that simple proofing tool, I take it that you did not do well in Math, in school.

Until you can demonstrate your claim factually and objectively, your claim will continue to be viewed for what it is - a false alarm.

Your inability to comprehend simple English apparently prevents you from discovering my OP mentioned absolutely nothing about Net Migration Rates while presenting a fairly simple question you overlooked (if you even bothered to read Avnery's article)

Why are so many Jews leaving Israel?

"Israel declares itself to be 'the State of the Jewish People'. Jews all over the world are considered de facto Israeli nationals. But if there is no basic difference between a Jew in Haifa and a Jew in Hamburg, why stay in Haifa when life in Hamburg seems to be so much better?"

What's your answer?

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The sentence in bold is a falsehood. It does not accurately reflect the 'Right of Return' law - which of course is by no means limited to Israel.

Which of course means that while Jew and Arab can both become citizens of Israel the state itself is reserved solely for the Jewish nation from Haifa to Hamburg. Maybe that explains why the founding generation of the Jewish state thought twice about creating an Israeli nationality?

"14
The Israeli Citizenship Law (Nationality Law, 5712-1952)
11
: This law repealed the
Palestinian Citizenship Order
of 24
th
July 1925 under which the indigenous Palestinians
were granted the status of citizens
and
nationals in their country; it resulted in the
de facto
'denationalization' of this entire population. It is important to note t
hat the official English-
language version of the Citizenship Law carries the falsely
translated title “The Nationality
Law”, as if it were the legal basis for a nationality right, which it is not
.
12
15
After the denationalization of all Palestinians, Israeli law
proceeded on the basis that
citizenship and nationality would be two separate and distinct sta
tuses. Israel’s
discriminatory legal regime that distinguishes between citize
ns and nationals underpins its
land, residency, and housing policy both within Israel Proper as wel
l as the OPT. It is in
furtherance of its policy goal to create and maintain a Jewis
h majority that Israel has
implemented an apartheid regime and a policy of forced population transf
er of non-Jewish
nationals (Palestinian Arabs)."

http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/ngos/BADIL_Israel-CERD80.pdf

 

[docmauser1]

"14
The Israeli Citizenship Law (Nationality Law, 5712-1952)
11
: This law repealed the
Palestinian Citizenship Order
of 24
th
July 1925 under which the indigenous Palestinians
were granted the status of citizens
and
nationals in their country; it resulted in the
de facto
'denationalization' of this entire population. It is important to note t
hat the official English-
language version of the Citizenship Law carries the falsely
translated title “The Nationality
Law”, as if it were the legal basis for a nationality right, which it is not
.
12
15
After the denationalization of all Palestinians, Israeli law
proceeded on the basis that
citizenship and nationality would be two separate and distinct sta
tuses. Israel’s
discriminatory legal regime that distinguishes between citize
ns and nationals underpins its
land, residency, and housing policy both within Israel Proper as wel
l as the OPT. It is in
furtherance of its policy goal to create and maintain a Jewis
h majority that Israel has
implemented an apartheid regime and a policy of forced population transf
er of non-Jewish nationals (Palestinian Arabs)."http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrc/docs/ngos/BADIL_Israel-CERD80.pdf

Palistanian drivel from badil "ngo".

 

[georgephillip]

"One in three refugees in the world today is Palestinian. The majority of these refugees have no nationality because they were denationalised by Israel's Nationality Law in 1952 after they had fled or been expelled from their homeland in 1948.

"Israel has refused to allow the majority Palestinian refugees, being displaced in 1948, the right to return to their homes despite the passage of U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194 (III).

"Israel has also refused to allow the majority of Palestinians displaced in 1967 the right to return to their homes despite appeals from the International Committee of the Red Cross and despite calls from the UN Security Council.

"Since then Israel has manipulated the laws of occupation by transferring its civilian population into the territory it occupies whilst subjecting the indigenous Palestinian population to military law."

The Nationality of Denationalized Palestinians by Victor Kattan :: SSRN

 

[Kondor3]

"One in three refugees in the world today is Palestinian. The majority of these refugees have no nationality because they were denationalised by Israel's Nationality Law in 1952 after they had fled or been expelled from their homeland in 1948..."

1. They had last been citizens of Mandate Palestine.

2. They did not automatically become citizens of Israel on Independence Day, did they?

3. They had all become Jordanian Citizens when Jordan annexed the West Bank in 1950.

4. The 1952 Law (passed two years after they had become Jordanian Citizens) seems to have merely tied-up loose ends and closed future loopholes.

You can't take-away Israeli Citizenship from people who were never Israeli Citizens.

Jordanian occupation of the West Bank - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1967, despite pleas by Israel to remain neutral, on Day 2, Jordan attacked West Jerusalem and opened-up a whole can of whoop-ass; losing everything.

It left 1 million of its fellow citizens (Palestinian-Jordanians) to shift for themselves rather than making arrangements with Israel to deliver them safely into Jordanian hands.

Then again, the Jordanians had a change of heart anyway, and, by 1988, decided to cull the herd and to revoke the Jordanian Citizenship of some 40,000 Palestinians...

Palestinian refugee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It doesn't seem as though the Arabs play fair with their own kind, in matters of citizenship, so why-the-hell should their enemies, the Israelis?

That would be a complete breakdown of logic and pragmatism and common sense.

"...Israel has refused to allow the majority Palestinian refugees, being displaced in 1948, the right to return to their homes despite the passage of U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194 (III)..."

Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Yemen were all at-war with Israel at the time of the passage of UNR194.

Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Yemen all voted against it.

There was no reason for Israel to go along with a peace and reconciliation proposal which the other side was so visibly dead-set against.

Furthermore, Israel was not yet a member of the UN, and was not bound to abide by such an inoperative and one-sided proposal, either at the time, or afterwards.

If the Arabs wanted Israel to play along with UNR194, perhaps they should have voted for it, yes?

"...Israel has also refused to allow the majority of Palestinians displaced in 1967 the right to return to their homes despite appeals from the International Committee of the Red Cross and despite calls from the UN Security Council..."

Can't blame 'em a bit. Israel pleaded with Jordan to remain neutral. West Bank and East Jerusalem Palestinians were all Jordanian Citizens at the time. Jordan attacked. They lost, and paid the forfeit. They foolishly gave the Israelis the excuse they needed to take and keep that land and the Jordanians should have made provision for their fellow citizens (the Palestinians) to be repatriated back across Jordan's now-shrunken borders. They did not.

"...Since then Israel has manipulated the laws of occupation by transferring its civilian population into the territory it occupies whilst subjecting the indigenous Palestinian population to military law."

Bingo.

Damned effective, isn't it?

I'll bet the Jordanians and the Palestinians are wishing-to-hell they would have stayed out of it 1967, right about now, eh?

Too late now.

If they're Jordanian Citizens, then it's time for Jordan to step-up and arrange for them to be transferred to Jordanian territory.

Funded by some of that Arab Oil Money that has been so generous to the Palestinians in the past.

I'm sure the Israelis will be happy to help with logistics and funding and wergeld and compensation and all that, for these unfortunate Jordanian Citizens who were previously abandoned by their fellow countrymen and who would now be going home to Jordan.

After all, if the Kuwaitis can expel 200,000 Jordanian-Palestinians who were NOT shooting at them, in the wake of the Gulf War, just for siding with Saddam Hussein...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_expulsion_from_Kuwait

No one could fault the Israelis for more generously escorting their far-more-hostile and lethal Jordanian-Palestinian charges to the border and into the tender, loving hands of their brethren.

 

[LAfrique]

Uri Avnery suggests a Crusader connection in his brief article at Counterpunch:

"THOSE WHO are interested in the history of the Crusades ask themselves: what brought about the Crusaders’ downfall? Looking at the remnants of their proud fortresses all over the country, we wonder.

"The traditional answer is: their defeat in the battle of the Horns of Hattin, twin hills near the Lake of Galilee, in 1187, by the great Muslim Sultan Salah ad-Din (Saladin).

"However, the Crusader state lived on in Palestine and the surroundings for another hundred years.

"The most authoritative historian of the Crusades, the late Steven Runciman, gave a completely different answer: the Crusader kingdom collapsed because too many Crusaders returned to their ancestral homelands, while too few came to join the Crusaders. In the end, the last remnants were thrown into the sea (literally)."

Obviously the nuclear-fanged corporate controlled ethnocracy currently ruling all the land between the River and the sea isn't likely to suffer a similar fate; however, is it worth wondering why so many Jews who were born and educated in Israel currently prefer living in Hamburg to Haifa?

"This is not a subject anyone ever speaks of. But it is there. And it is bound to get worse.

"Jewish Israelis are already a minority in the country ruled by Israel, from the Mediterranean to the Jordan. The majority of subjects deprived of all rights is growing by the year. Oppression will necessarily grow. The image of Israel throughout the world will get worse. Pride in Israel will fade."

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Firstly, Judaism is a religion and Jews are not necessarily Israelites/Israelis. Israelites, dating to Biblical days, have always been nomads. The only hope for a homeland for dynasty Israel was in Genesis chapter 15: 18-21, which I now believe is nothing but man's manipulative attempt for land grab.

 

[Hossfly]

"One in three refugees in the world today is Palestinian. The majority of these refugees have no nationality because they were denationalised by Israel's Nationality Law in 1952 after they had fled or been expelled from their homeland in 1948.

"Israel has refused to allow the majority Palestinian refugees, being displaced in 1948, the right to return to their homes despite the passage of U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194 (III).

"Israel has also refused to allow the majority of Palestinians displaced in 1967 the right to return to their homes despite appeals from the International Committee of the Red Cross and despite calls from the UN Security Council.

"Since then Israel has manipulated the laws of occupation by transferring its civilian population into the territory it occupies whilst subjecting the indigenous Palestinian population to military law."

The Nationality of Denationalized Palestinians by Victor Kattan :: SSRN

Hmm, I wonder if some of the millions and millions of people from Europe displaced after World War II and also their children born in other countries not of their parents' birth consider themselves as refugees. What do you think, Georgie Boy? I think the viewers realize by now that with all your cut and paste jobs, you would love to see all these "Palestinians" who weren't even born in Israel arrive in hordes to take over the country from the Jews. Naturally you wouldn't call for the King of Jordan to step down for the "Palestinians" to rule even though Jordan is 78% of the Palestine Mandate which was handed over to the Hashemites of Saudi Arabia. Since the Hashemites are Muslims and not Jews, Georgie Boy is not concerned with them.

 

[Hossfly]

In order for such a statement to be accepted as a truism...

1. one must first quantify 'so many' - what are these threshholds - how many Jews in a 'so many'?

2. one must first quantify that portion of the 'so many' whose motives are verifiably attributable to those cited by the author

3. one must first quantify that subset of the 'so many' as statistically significant vis a vis the population at large

4. one must first quantify the increase in the size of that subset of the 'so many' by making comparisons to the disaffected spanning several years or a decade or more, in order to undertake an objective trend analysis

I have not seen any of this from your boy, or you...

There is no other way to legitimize the claim...

Never mind factoring-in the really complicated stuff like simple Net Migration Rates, which may be too complex an addition to the mix, to avoid confusing tiny little minds...

Without (1) through (4), your boy's speculation is just so much hot air, anecdotal and entirely unreliable and partisan in nature, from a tiny sampling deck, and absolutely useless as a Broad Generalization...

A False Alarm...

It is, indeed, difficult for me to deal with my own occasional stupidity...

The handicaps under which YOU apparently labor in dealing with Statistical Validity and Trend Analysis are enough to make me shudder and want to send you a Condolence Card through the Mods here... poor soul.

What "statement" are you imagining here?
I'm dealing with a question from the OP asking the following:
Why are so many Jews leaving Israel?
There's no need for any amateur-night statistical windmills or psudo-intellectual red herrings who don't hunt (mixed metaphorically speaking) Possibly, you should put aside your partisan bias and actually read Anvery's arguments:

"'Descenders' (Yordim) is the Hebrew term for emigrants. People coming to live in Israel are called 'ascenders' (Olim), a term akin to pilgrims. Probably the word has something to do with the fact that Jerusalem is located on a hill surrounded on all sides by valleys, so that you have to 'go up' to reach it. But of course there is an ideological Zionist connotation to the terms.

"Before the founding of our state and during its first few decades, we saw ourselves as a heroic society, struggling against great odds, fighting several wars. People leaving us were looked upon as deserters, like soldiers running away from their unit during a battle. Yitzhak Rabin called them 'trash'.

"What made the TV story so frightening was that it showed ordinary middle-class young Israeli families settling for good in Berlin, London and New Jersey. Some of their children were already speaking foreign languages, abandoning Hebrew. Terrible..."

"Until lately, 'descending' was mostly attributed to misfits, lower-class people and others who could not find their place in ordinary society. But here were normal, well-educated young couples, Israeli-born, speaking good Hebrew. Their general complaint – sounding rather like an apology – was that they could not “end the month” in Israel, that their middle-class salaries did not suffice for a decent living, because salaries are too low and prices too high. They singled out the prices of apartments. The price of an apartment in Tel Aviv is equivalent to 120 months’ average middle class income."

What do you suppose inspires "normal. well educated couples. Israeli born, speaking good Hebrew" to descend from Zion?

"THE SUDDEN disillusion caused Israelis to take a hard look at Israeli academia. It appears that our standards are slipping all along the line. Our universities are under-funded by the government, the number of professors and their quality decreasing. High-school students are slipping in their exams.

"Why?

"Immense funds are swallowed by the army, whose demands grow from year to year, though our security situation is improving all the time.

"Our eternal occupation of the Palestinian territories is a drain on our meager resources. So are the settlements, of course. Our government invests in them huge sums of money. The exact amounts are a state secret.

"In the long run, a small country with limited resources cannot sustain a huge army, as well as an occupation regime and hundreds of settlements, without depriving everything else. One single fighter plane costs more than a school or a hospital or a laboratory.

"BUT MY worry about emigration is not limited to material considerations.

"People do not leave for material reasons only. They may think that they are emigrating because life in Berlin is cheaper than in Tel Aviv, apartments easier to find, salaries higher. But it is not only the strength of the attraction of foreign lands that counts – it is also the strength or weakness of the bond to the homeland."

In simple concepts, so many Jews are leaving Israel because of the illegal Occupation of Palestine.

Feel free to continue manufacturing statistical straw men if you're still incapable of responding intelligently to the OP.

Why Are So Many Jews Leaving Israel? » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Many Israelis do leave because they want to make more money someplace else, where they don't have to serve in the army or suffer terror. They are the ones who are brought up without Zionist values or are totally secular. That's why it's refreshing to see posters like Lipush on here.

Georgie Boy can run on and on with this topic ad nauseam, but since he lives in a big city with much diversity, he has the opportunity to question many of these immigrants about the reasons they left their home countries. I think he will find that the various reasons they give will be about the same as the Israelis in his city will give him. Perhaps Georgie Boy would find this article interesting even though it doesn't come from one of his sites.

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