who would support dropping liberal arts degrees to help colleges?

[Madeline]

i went to catholic schools on the west coast in the '90s and we diagrammed sentences.

i feel that language skills are what imparts much of math and science, and that these other studies suffer from shortcomings in literacy education.

not until university did math come down to teachers whose english was hardly intelligible and abstract equasions you'd be hard-pressed to draft word problems for.

"not until university did math come down to teachers whose english was hardly intelligible and abstract equasions you'd be hard-pressed to draft word problems for."



You ended the sentence with a preposition.

"was hardly intelligible"=> hardly was intelligible

What does "did math come down to" mean?

I think there are only 276 days left on my restraining order now. Can we plan that dinner for day 277? PLEASE? HUH? HUH? WHY WON"T YOU ANSWER ME????

ROFLMAO. I am so stealing that image, Samson. It's my new avatar.

 

[Madeline]

sentences can end in preps. that's a ridiculous rule.

i'll rehash..

when i was in highschool, math was easy. you could make word problems for virtually everything. in college, the role of english in math classes was dramatically reduced. some of the professor's english was difficult to understand. they had strong accents from exotic places. interestingly enough, the word problems were gone.

Southern Lady to NY Lady: Well, nice to meet you. Where're y'all from?

NY Lady to Southern Lady: I'm from where we don't end our sentences with a preposition.

Southern Lady tgo NY Lady: O, pardon me.

Where y'all from, BITCH?

LOL.

 

[Madeline]

in light of these roles, i don't believe education should be biased exclusively to job-worthiness.

Okay. How about job-worthiness as the primary means of testing for the need to continue, expand or contract a degree program?

I assume the non-job goals you see as valuable include things such as professorial writing, benefiting the community at large, etc.

I agree...but I also do not see where there would be any great tension between job and non-job related goals for colleges and universities.

 

[editec]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I'm of the opinion that every undergrad ought to get a BS BEFORE they specialize into other fields.

The last thing a democratic republic needs is highly trained specialists who don't have a clue how to be well informed thinking humans.

People like that become TOOLS for tyrants.

So anyone who does not hold a BS and at least one advanced degree is a "tool for tyrants"?

Pardon me whilst I barf. I believe I have accidentially swallowed some elist crap.

What you just wrote, and what I'd actually written really bear no relationship to each other.

Pardon me while I feel sorry for you.

 

[editec]

Seeing how many colleges now are facing steep budget issues, who would support mass dropping of liberal arts degree programs? Obviously some introduction liberal arts classes are needed for all majors, but the idea of getting a 4 year degree in liberal arts is just ridiculous and a waste of time. These programs are also a drag on the college as they bring in no research or other money and must be completely funded by tuition, which also drops during bad economic times. Unlike liberal arts programs, students and professors in math, science, and engineering actually make profits for the school through grants and commercialization of products in conjunction with local businesses.

I'm of the opinion that every undergrad ought to get a BS BEFORE they specialize into other fields.

The last thing a democratic republic needs is highly trained specialists who don't have a clue how to be well informed thinking humans.

People like that become TOOLS for tyrants.

i dont quite get it. a BSc in what, exactly? I thought you had to have a BSc/BA to study an advanced degree anyhow.

Good point.

I was addressing that sentiment here which seemed to think that all one needed was a TECHNICAL education.

I noted, for example, that in the same post one person was touting MATH, yet didn't apparently understand that a MATH major undergrad was actually getting a LIBERAL ARTS degree.

 

[Skull Pilot]

of course, were there no longer the curriculum to reference...

If liberal arts degrees were discontinued, I am sure one could find what used to be taught and what books used to be used in the very same free library.

While I am a huge fan of voracious reading, and encourage everyone to do so, I have to honestly say that I don't believe the learning acquired from attending class can be replaced by merely reading the coursebook.

Why not?

All a prof does is tell you what he thinks a book says. Sure he might be using sources from another book so all you have to do is read more than one book on a subject.

I don't understand the idea that if some prof stands in front of a class and tells you about something he read in a book that it somehow is more valuable than if you gathered that very same information yourself.

Actually, this sums up my point quite nicely:

[youtube]ymsHLkB8u3s[/youtube]

 

[Samson]

All a prof does is tell you what he thinks a book says. Sure he might be using sources from another book so all you have to do is read more than one book on a subject.

I don't understand the idea that if some prof stands in front of a class and tells you about something he read in a book that it somehow is more valuable than if you gathered that very same information yourself.

Actually, this sums up my point quite nicely:

[youtube]ymsHLkB8u3s[/youtube]

"A HAAVAAD BAAR!!"

You do realise that few people are as bright as the character Will Hunting?

But the point of the video is well taken: So-called "intelligence" is simply regurgitation without employing higher thinking skills of judgement, synthesis, evaluation. Few are capable of these skills. Even fewer with these skills can imbue others with them, and only a small fraction of these teach.

As a result, if you get Just ONE great prof in College/University, then he alone is worth the entire degree plan, and cost.

 

[geauxtohell]

Actually, this sums up my point quite nicely:

[youtube]ymsHLkB8u3s[/youtube]

And if you have a photographic memory/natural genius that allows you to learn Organic Chemistry in an afternoon, you could probably skip college and have just as much education as the average college grad.

For the other 99.9999999999999% of the public.

The point of that movie was that Matt Damon's character was an exception, not the norm. Ben Affleck's character was the norm and that's why he eventually told Damon he needed to get out of town and do something with himself.

Ah, comprehension.

 

[geauxtohell]

"A HAAVAAD BAAR!!"

You do realise that few people are as bright as the character Will Hunting?

But the point of the video is well taken: So-called "intelligence" is simply regurgitation without employing higher thinking skills of judgement, synthesis, evaluation. Few are capable of these skills. Even fewer with these skills can imbue others with them, and only a small fraction of these teach.

As a result, if you get Just ONE great prof in College/University, then he alone is worth the entire degree plan, and cost.

Are we talking about intelligence or education? Because it's impossible to get a medical education from over due library fines. You have to actually go to school and deal with actual patients and then do residency before you actually know enough to be dangerous.

Every thread on higher education get's flooded with people that say: "you don't have to go to college to be smart". Well, no shit. I grew up on a farm and worked with guys who barely finished High School and could fix any piece of machinery with duct tape and bailing wire.

They were smart dudes without the benefit of formal education.

That doesn't mean there is no benefit to formal education.

It just get's annoying when people want to make a blanket statement that college is a waste of time and money.

At the very least, statistically speaking, years of education has a positive correlation with income.

 

[Samson]

Actually, this sums up my point quite nicely:

[youtube]ymsHLkB8u3s[/youtube]

And if you have a photographic memory/natural genius that allows you to learn Organic Chemistry in an afternoon, you could probably skip college and have just as much education as the average college grad.

For the other 99.9999999999999% of the public.

The point of that movie was that Matt Damon's character was an exception, not the norm. Ben Affleck's character was the norm and that's why he eventually told Damon he needed to get out of town and do something with himself.

Ah, comprehension.

Um....but the point of the video was to show Will Hunting's Slap-Down of the Harvard Grad Student's smug regurgitation of whatever professor he'd heard last.

Self-Tought Janitor vs. Harvard Educated Parrot.

 

[geauxtohell]

Actually, this sums up my point quite nicely:

[youtube]ymsHLkB8u3s[/youtube]

And if you have a photographic memory/natural genius that allows you to learn Organic Chemistry in an afternoon, you could probably skip college and have just as much education as the average college grad.

For the other 99.9999999999999% of the public.

The point of that movie was that Matt Damon's character was an exception, not the norm. Ben Affleck's character was the norm and that's why he eventually told Damon he needed to get out of town and do something with himself.

Ah, comprehension.

Um....but the point of the video was to show Will Hunting's Slap-Down of the Harvard Grad Student's smug regurgitation of whatever professor he'd heard last.

Self-Tought Janitor vs. Harvard Educated Parrot.

It was a good scene.

 

[Samson]

Are we talking about intelligence or education? Because it's impossible to get a medical education from over due library fines. You have to actually go to school and deal with actual patients and then do residency before you actually know enough to be dangerous.

Every thread on higher education get's flooded with people that say: "you don't have to go to college to be smart". Well, no shit. I grew up on a farm and worked with guys who barely finished High School and could fix any piece of machinery with duct tape and bailing wire.

They were smart dudes without the benefit of formal education.

That doesn't mean there is no benefit to formal education.

It just get's annoying when people want to make a blanket statement that college is a waste of time and money.

At the very least, statistically speaking, years of education has a positive correlation with income.

See the OP.

The value of "education" in question is a BA in Liberal Arts (e.g. French Rainessance Poetry)

I for one, don't consider an MD a liberal arts degree.

 

[Skull Pilot]

All a prof does is tell you what he thinks a book says. Sure he might be using sources from another book so all you have to do is read more than one book on a subject.

I don't understand the idea that if some prof stands in front of a class and tells you about something he read in a book that it somehow is more valuable than if you gathered that very same information yourself.

Actually, this sums up my point quite nicely:

[youtube]ymsHLkB8u3s[/youtube]

"A HAAVAAD BAAR!!"

You do realise that few people are as bright as the character Will Hunting?

But the point of the video is well taken: So-called "intelligence" is simply regurgitation without employing higher thinking skills of judgement, synthesis, evaluation. Few are capable of these skills. Even fewer with these skills can imbue others with them, and only a small fraction of these teach.

As a result, if you get Just ONE great prof in College/University, then he alone is worth the entire degree plan, and cost.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that last bit.

I can imbue myself with any knowledge I so choose by availing myself of resources found on my own and not lectured to me by some prof whose only advantage over me is that he read a few more books and talked about those books more than the average Joe.

And one does not need an eidetic memory to learn as much or even more on a subject from the library as your average college puke learns in a lecture hall.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And if you have a photographic memory/natural genius that allows you to learn Organic Chemistry in an afternoon, you could probably skip college and have just as much education as the average college grad.

For the other 99.9999999999999% of the public.

The point of that movie was that Matt Damon's character was an exception, not the norm. Ben Affleck's character was the norm and that's why he eventually told Damon he needed to get out of town and do something with himself.

Ah, comprehension.

He was talking history not organic chemistry.

And BTW I do believe one could learn organic chemistry as well as any other undergrad from reading the books. Possibly the only thing missing that I see as a detriment would be the lab time.

But it's just so hard for you to admit that a person does not need to attend university to be just as and quite possibly more educated than some idiot who did nothing but memorize the answers a prof wanted to hear isn't it?

 

[Samson]

All a prof does is tell you what he thinks a book says. Sure he might be using sources from another book so all you have to do is read more than one book on a subject.

I don't understand the idea that if some prof stands in front of a class and tells you about something he read in a book that it somehow is more valuable than if you gathered that very same information yourself.

Actually, this sums up my point quite nicely:

[youtube]ymsHLkB8u3s[/youtube]

"A HAAVAAD BAAR!!"

You do realise that few people are as bright as the character Will Hunting?

But the point of the video is well taken: So-called "intelligence" is simply regurgitation without employing higher thinking skills of judgement, synthesis, evaluation. Few are capable of these skills. Even fewer with these skills can imbue others with them, and only a small fraction of these teach.

As a result, if you get Just ONE great prof in College/University, then he alone is worth the entire degree plan, and cost.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that last bit.

I can imbue myself with any knowledge I so choose by availing myself of resources found on my own and not lectured to me by some prof whose only advantage over me is that he read a few more books and talked about those books more than the average Joe.

And one does not need an eidetic memory to learn as much or even more on a subject from the library as your average college puke learns in a lecture hall.

I'm not arguing that you can learn information on your own.

What I'm argueing is that the value of a lecture is gained when your THINKING SKILLS improve. I admit that it is very rare to find a prof that can do this. I also admit that you might not find any prof that is any good at this. In fact, I'll even admit you may find individuals that can improve your thinking skills OUTSIDE formal education.

When you can better evaluate information.....

When you can better synthesise information.....

When you can better judge your own evaluation or synthesis for pros and cons....then you have gained skill that cannot be learned in a text.

 

[geauxtohell]

He was talking history not organic chemistry.

And at a later scene in the movie, he does his girlfriend's Organic Chemistry problems for her in a couple of hours.

And BTW I do believe one could learn organic chemistry as well as any other undergrad from reading the books. Possibly the only thing missing that I see as a detriment would be the lab time.

You've obviously never taken Organic Chemistry. I learned by going to every lecture, reading every page of the book, and doing every problem in the book. If I would have missed out on any of those three, I wouldn't have learned *basic* Organic Chemistry.

The real test of whether you knew what was going on were the hellacious exams prepared by the professor who taught the lecture. He was a great teacher, so if you did the work, you generally survived. You also were able to understand book text by going to lecture and listening to him explain it.

I don't know if you've ever read a basic science text book. The words don't exactly jump off the page at you.

But it's just so hard for you to admit that a person does not need to attend university to be just as and quite possibly more educated than some idiot who did nothing but memorize the answers a prof wanted to hear isn't it?

Because education is a formal process, just like military training.

 

[geauxtohell]

Are we talking about intelligence or education? Because it's impossible to get a medical education from over due library fines. You have to actually go to school and deal with actual patients and then do residency before you actually know enough to be dangerous.

Every thread on higher education get's flooded with people that say: "you don't have to go to college to be smart". Well, no shit. I grew up on a farm and worked with guys who barely finished High School and could fix any piece of machinery with duct tape and bailing wire.

They were smart dudes without the benefit of formal education.

That doesn't mean there is no benefit to formal education.

It just get's annoying when people want to make a blanket statement that college is a waste of time and money.

At the very least, statistically speaking, years of education has a positive correlation with income.

See the OP.

The value of "education" in question is a BA in Liberal Arts (e.g. French Rainessance Poetry)

I for one, don't consider an MD a liberal arts degree.

Yeah, I got all that and we both know that MD, DO, JD, etc are professional graduate level degrees.

My point was more towards the people who are determined that college is a useless process where everyone sits around in circles singing Kumbaya and never actually learns anything. You know, people that make posts like this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2247713-post173.html

 

[Samson]

Are we talking about intelligence or education? Because it's impossible to get a medical education from over due library fines. You have to actually go to school and deal with actual patients and then do residency before you actually know enough to be dangerous.

Every thread on higher education get's flooded with people that say: "you don't have to go to college to be smart". Well, no shit. I grew up on a farm and worked with guys who barely finished High School and could fix any piece of machinery with duct tape and bailing wire.

They were smart dudes without the benefit of formal education.

That doesn't mean there is no benefit to formal education.

It just get's annoying when people want to make a blanket statement that college is a waste of time and money.

At the very least, statistically speaking, years of education has a positive correlation with income.

See the OP.

The value of "education" in question is a BA in Liberal Arts (e.g. French Rainessance Poetry)

I for one, don't consider an MD a liberal arts degree.

Yeah, I got all that and we both know that MD, DO, JD, etc are professional graduate level degrees.

My point was more towards the people who are determined that college is a useless process where everyone sits around in circles singing Kumbaya and never actually learns anything. You know, people that make posts like this:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2247713-post173.html

Well, don't you agree, college CAN be useless?

When someone says they graduated from the University of Funny Walks, you automatically think "oh, great."

Even if they say they have a degree, you wonder "IN WHAT?"

Then you try not to chuckle if they say, "Elizabethan Literature," or "Interior Design," or "Political Science."

 

[eagleseven]

Because it's impossible to get a medical education from over due library fines.

Can you check out cadavers from the library?

 

[Samson]

Because it's impossible to get a medical education from over due library fines.

Can you check out cadavers from the library?

Still struggling with that necrophilla thing?