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Who is David Chipman?

JoeB131

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I agree. All those little children needed to be murdered by the state!

They weren't murdered by the state.

They were murdered by their parents who believed a malignant narcissist was Jesus.

Look at how you love and worship Big Brother!

Not really the issue here. If the government had killed them, I'd be the first for holding people accountable. I do think that the leaders of the ATF and FBI should have been fired, and they were.

But we had THREE investigations... one led by John Danforth... all three concluded the Davidians committed mass suicide.

What do you call a Branch Davidian with a fire extinguisher?

A heretic.


Q: Why don't we have more prophets like David Koresh?

A: It's such a high stress job that burnout is almost inevitable.
 

struth

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Innocent people burning to death is funny to you?

Whackadoodle cultists killing themselves is fucking hilarious.

i don't think pointing out the massive blunder that was the Clinton Admin's handling of Waco, is making a martyr out of David Koresh. If anything, the complete f-up by the Dem in the Clinton Admin made him a martyr to some.

I would agree that the ATF and FBI handled this badly. (I don't blame Clinton or Reno, they were new on the job and deferred to the assumption that the FBI knew what it was doing.) They probably should have just waited for them to run out of food.

But at the end of the day, Koresh made the decision to open fire on federal agents (and he knew they were federal agents) and Koresh was the one who decided that mass suicide was preferable to him going to jail as a chomo.
I blame Clinton...he hired someone like Reno...who made a number of horrible mistakes even after this.

But if you want to blame the rank and file at the....Xiden's pick here was one of those guys
 

CrusaderFrank

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I agree. All those little children needed to be murdered by the state!

They weren't murdered by the state.

They were murdered by their parents who believed a malignant narcissist was Jesus.

Look at how you love and worship Big Brother!

Not really the issue here. If the government had killed them, I'd be the first for holding people accountable. I do think that the leaders of the ATF and FBI should have been fired, and they were.

But we had THREE investigations... one led by John Danforth... all three concluded the Davidians committed mass suicide.

What do you call a Branch Davidian with a fire extinguisher?

A heretic.


Q: Why don't we have more prophets like David Koresh?

A: It's such a high stress job that burnout is almost inevitable.
^ Nazi fucktard
 

JoeB131

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I blame Clinton...he hired someone like Reno...who made a number of horrible mistakes even after this.

But if you want to blame the rank and file at the....Xiden's pick here was one of those guys

Was he the guy who made the decisions?

Here's the thing. The FBI at that time really had no experience dealing with cults. To them, they figured that if they cut off the power and the water, eventually, they'd get tired and come out.

But the blame belongs on Koresh and his deluded followers, who did evolution a favor and removed themselves from the gene pool.
 

K9Buck

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But the blame belongs on Koresh and his deluded followers...

The authorities could have picked up Koresh on any of the numerous occasions that he went into town. They completely FUCKED it all up.

Why do you defend the government NO MATTER WHAT?
 

struth

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I blame Clinton...he hired someone like Reno...who made a number of horrible mistakes even after this.

But if you want to blame the rank and file at the....Xiden's pick here was one of those guys

Was he the guy who made the decisions?

Here's the thing. The FBI at that time really had no experience dealing with cults. To them, they figured that if they cut off the power and the water, eventually, they'd get tired and come out.

But the blame belongs on Koresh and his deluded followers, who did evolution a favor and removed themselves from the gene pool.
Well...yes...he made the choice to hire Reno....and yes Reno was the one signing off on things. Do I personally blame him for the on the ground things? Of course not...but I blame him for the bad hiring in Reno...or at least..keeping her around after the fact.

The Federal Govt had plenty experience handing these sort of issues before. He was a guyy willing to die for a cause...that's it....

I have no problem saying Koresh was a nut and his responsiblity for the issue. But that doesn't absolve the f-up by the Clinton Admin.
 

JoeB131

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The authorities could have picked up Koresh on any of the numerous occasions that he went into town. They completely FUCKED it all up.

Why do you defend the government NO MATTER WHAT?

The point wasn't just to arrest Koresh. The point was to get all the guns he and his followers had illegally modified and were selling on the gray market.

In any event, the ATF had a valid warrant. Koresh knew they were coming, and laid an ambush for them.

I've criticized the government a lot of times here when I've disagreed with them. This really wasn't one of them.

Well...yes...he made the choice to hire Reno....and yes Reno was the one signing off on things. Do I personally blame him for the on the ground things? Of course not...but I blame him for the bad hiring in Reno...or at least..keeping her around after the fact.

Except Reno was deferring to the FBI, and Clinton eventually fired the FBI Director.

The Federal Govt had plenty experience handing these sort of issues before. He was a guyy willing to die for a cause...that's it....

Uh, no, this was considerably different, in that you had the whole religious fanaticism thing baked into the pie. That was something the Feds really hadn't any experience with before. Usually, the FBI deals with things like cartels and organized crime where they can't wait to rat each other out.

I have no problem saying Koresh was a nut and his responsiblity for the issue. But that doesn't absolve the f-up by the Clinton Admin.

I'm just not seeing how this was going to turn out differently, that was the thing. Koresh was willing to murder his followers instead of going to prison. Clinton later regretted that he didn't just wait them out... but that path was also frought with peril. They probably would have committed mass suicide anyway.
 

struth

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The authorities could have picked up Koresh on any of the numerous occasions that he went into town. They completely FUCKED it all up.

Why do you defend the government NO MATTER WHAT?

The point wasn't just to arrest Koresh. The point was to get all the guns he and his followers had illegally modified and were selling on the gray market.

In any event, the ATF had a valid warrant. Koresh knew they were coming, and laid an ambush for them.

I've criticized the government a lot of times here when I've disagreed with them. This really wasn't one of them.

Well...yes...he made the choice to hire Reno....and yes Reno was the one signing off on things. Do I personally blame him for the on the ground things? Of course not...but I blame him for the bad hiring in Reno...or at least..keeping her around after the fact.

Except Reno was deferring to the FBI, and Clinton eventually fired the FBI Director.

The Federal Govt had plenty experience handing these sort of issues before. He was a guyy willing to die for a cause...that's it....

Uh, no, this was considerably different, in that you had the whole religious fanaticism thing baked into the pie. That was something the Feds really hadn't any experience with before. Usually, the FBI deals with things like cartels and organized crime where they can't wait to rat each other out.

I have no problem saying Koresh was a nut and his responsiblity for the issue. But that doesn't absolve the f-up by the Clinton Admin.

I'm just not seeing how this was going to turn out differently, that was the thing. Koresh was willing to murder his followers instead of going to prison. Clinton later regretted that he didn't just wait them out... but that path was also frought with peril. They probably would have committed mass suicide anyway.
1) well it was for a search warrant...it turns out based on some very faulty information
2) Clinton order in the military...Reno was the head of the FBI, and signed off on it all. Sessions was fired...largely due to William Barr, exposing ethical violations by Sessions.
3) nope not really...the Feds had been dealing with religious nuts for some time...way worse then these folks too...such as Islamic terrorist.
4) It could have turned out way differently, if the Clinton Admin had simply followed regular police procedure instead of trying to show a huge military force. This really was one of the key moments that lead to the militarization of law enforcement
 

K9Buck

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The point wasn't just to arrest Koresh.

Koresh was their leader. Had they taken him in town, everything else may have been peacefully resolved.

But there's no point in discussing this with you further because you're a dishonest, partisan, hack.
 

ColonelAngus

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Wow, still trying to make child-molesting cultists into martyrs? Really?

This is how the right wing went nuts.

You lefty faggots did not support the government sanctioned murder. How do you forget?
 

JoeB131

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1) well it was for a search warrant...it turns out based on some very faulty information

Not really. But even if it was, so what? That's an issue you argue in court, you don't argue it by shooting at Federal Agents.

2) Clinton order in the military...Reno was the head of the FBI, and signed off on it all. Sessions was fired...largely due to William Barr, exposing ethical violations by Sessions.

Uh, the military didn't take part in Waco, bud.

3) nope not really...the Feds had been dealing with religious nuts for some time...way worse then these folks too...such as Islamic terrorist.

Not really. The problem was the FBI had no one who understood millenialist movements. I'd even go so far to say that a lot of the stuff they did, like the Psy-Ops playing of animals being killed and loud music, was actually detrimental when dealing with people who were already crazy.


4) It could have turned out way differently, if the Clinton Admin had simply followed regular police procedure instead of trying to show a huge military force. This really was one of the key moments that lead to the militarization of law enforcement

Uh, you know what lead to the militarization of law enforcement.
The militarization of criminals.

The fucking NRA and gun industry and YES - guys like Koresh, selling military grade weapons to very bad people. That's why law enforcement needs tanks now...

What a fucking dumb ass. Speaking of dumb-asses.

Koresh was their leader. Had they taken him in town, everything else may have been peacefully resolved.

But there's no point in discussing this with you further because you're a dishonest, partisan, hack.

Again, I've argued both sides of this on my career as an internet pundit... the facts are just not on your side.

True, the ATF could have arrested Koresh on a trip into town... but the problem was, they were after the guns his supporters were modifying illegally, so they STILL had to get into that compound.
 

struth

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1) well it was for a search warrant...it turns out based on some very faulty information

Not really. But even if it was, so what? That's an issue you argue in court, you don't argue it by shooting at Federal Agents.

2) Clinton order in the military...Reno was the head of the FBI, and signed off on it all. Sessions was fired...largely due to William Barr, exposing ethical violations by Sessions.

Uh, the military didn't take part in Waco, bud.

3) nope not really...the Feds had been dealing with religious nuts for some time...way worse then these folks too...such as Islamic terrorist.

Not really. The problem was the FBI had no one who understood millenialist movements. I'd even go so far to say that a lot of the stuff they did, like the Psy-Ops playing of animals being killed and loud music, was actually detrimental when dealing with people who were already crazy.


4) It could have turned out way differently, if the Clinton Admin had simply followed regular police procedure instead of trying to show a huge military force. This really was one of the key moments that lead to the militarization of law enforcement

Uh, you know what lead to the militarization of law enforcement.
The militarization of criminals.

The fucking NRA and gun industry and YES - guys like Koresh, selling military grade weapons to very bad people. That's why law enforcement needs tanks now...

What a fucking dumb ass. Speaking of dumb-asses.

Koresh was their leader. Had they taken him in town, everything else may have been peacefully resolved.

But there's no point in discussing this with you further because you're a dishonest, partisan, hack.

Again, I've argued both sides of this on my career as an internet pundit... the facts are just not on your side.

True, the ATF could have arrested Koresh on a trip into town... but the problem was, they were after the guns his supporters were modifying illegally, so they STILL had to get into that compound.
1) I was just correcting your point that they were there to arrest him. I don't disagree
2) yes the military did The Waco Siege was the most controversial use of federal force in decades - We Are The Mighty " On April 19th, agents from the FBI and ATF, as well as troops from the U.S. Army and Texas National Guard, were authorized by Clinton to assault the compound. "
3) that's BS...they had been dealing with paramilitary groups for years...from KKK, Black Panthers, Islamic terrorist etc
4)The NRA never sold a firearm to anyone. This was the first major invent that lead to the militarization of policing.

I certainly don't disagree that he should have simply complied...but that's true of any search warrant or arrest...but often times folks don't...what we are dealing with a lot today, is directly related to how the Clinton Admin, and Congress at the time decided to go from policing, with law enforcement, to militaization.
 

JoeB131

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1) I was just correcting your point that they were there to arrest him. I don't disagree

I think your argument was confused. The target were the stockpiles of guns they had, not just Koresh himself.

2) yes the military did The Waco Siege was the most controversial use of federal force in decades - We Are The Mighty " On April 19th, agents from the FBI and ATF, as well as troops from the U.S. Army and Texas National Guard, were authorized by Clinton to assault the compound. "

The National Guard is authorized to participate in police actions, but they weren't the ones who stormed the compound... that was the FBI.

3) that's BS...they had been dealing with paramilitary groups for years...from KKK, Black Panthers, Islamic terrorist etc

None of which were end of the world Christian nuts like Koresh's bunch were.

The kind of people who would kill themselves and their children.

4)The NRA never sold a firearm to anyone. This was the first major invent that lead to the militarization of policing.

That's debateable... but the reason why the police have become militarized was because the crooks are.


We can thank people like Koresh for that. What Koresh was in trouble for was that he was selling AR-15's with kits to upgrade them to M16A2 rifles.

I certainly don't disagree that he should have simply complied...but that's true of any search warrant or arrest...but often times folks don't...what we are dealing with a lot today, is directly related to how the Clinton Admin, and Congress at the time decided to go from policing, with law enforcement, to militaization.

Actually, both parties have participated in it. I mean, I know you are still upset with Clinton for getting laid or whatever, but the ugly reality is - this has been going on for a long time, and both parties are responsible. The biggest problem was the Second Bush Administration allowing PD's to buy surplus military equipment as the War on Terror wound down.

1618169795738.png
 

Rigby5

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Wow, still trying to make child-molesting cultists into martyrs? Really?

This is how the right wing went nuts.

Child molesting is under local jurisdiction, not federal, and the point is not whether or not Koresh should be arrested, but why raid the ranch and murder all the children there?

There is lots of controversy over who and how the fire started, but it was not very smart for the BATF to cut their electrical power, forcing them to rely on kerosene lanterns, and then start knocking down walls at night with a tank recovery vehicle.
Pretty much bound to start a fire.
 

Rigby5

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1) well it was for a search warrant...it turns out based on some very faulty information

Not really. But even if it was, so what? That's an issue you argue in court, you don't argue it by shooting at Federal Agents.

2) Clinton order in the military...Reno was the head of the FBI, and signed off on it all. Sessions was fired...largely due to William Barr, exposing ethical violations by Sessions.

Uh, the military didn't take part in Waco, bud.

3) nope not really...the Feds had been dealing with religious nuts for some time...way worse then these folks too...such as Islamic terrorist.

Not really. The problem was the FBI had no one who understood millenialist movements. I'd even go so far to say that a lot of the stuff they did, like the Psy-Ops playing of animals being killed and loud music, was actually detrimental when dealing with people who were already crazy.


4) It could have turned out way differently, if the Clinton Admin had simply followed regular police procedure instead of trying to show a huge military force. This really was one of the key moments that lead to the militarization of law enforcement

Uh, you know what lead to the militarization of law enforcement.
The militarization of criminals.

The fucking NRA and gun industry and YES - guys like Koresh, selling military grade weapons to very bad people. That's why law enforcement needs tanks now...

What a fucking dumb ass. Speaking of dumb-asses.

Koresh was their leader. Had they taken him in town, everything else may have been peacefully resolved.

But there's no point in discussing this with you further because you're a dishonest, partisan, hack.

Again, I've argued both sides of this on my career as an internet pundit... the facts are just not on your side.

True, the ATF could have arrested Koresh on a trip into town... but the problem was, they were after the guns his supporters were modifying illegally, so they STILL had to get into that compound.

It is well recorded that the Branch Davidians did not fire first.
The BATF on the roof started the shooting first, and accidentally shot other BATF.
It is all on the video if you watch is in the right order.
You can tell when it is in the right order because then bullet holes in the wall next to and above the window, do not disappear magically.

The military DID take part in the siege of Waco.
The National Guard flew helicopters and provided tank recovery vehicles at the very least, because we saw them in the video.

And no, there is no evidence Koresh ever sold any illegal weapons. He was trying to make full auto AR-15s, and succeeded we think. But did not necessarily ever sell any, And since he had the required licenses, that would not be illegal anyway unless he did not do the required paperwork and pay up.

With the children there, it should never have been given to the BATF.
 

Rigby5

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1) well it was for a search warrant...it turns out based on some very faulty information

Not really. But even if it was, so what? That's an issue you argue in court, you don't argue it by shooting at Federal Agents.

2) Clinton order in the military...Reno was the head of the FBI, and signed off on it all. Sessions was fired...largely due to William Barr, exposing ethical violations by Sessions.

Uh, the military didn't take part in Waco, bud.

3) nope not really...the Feds had been dealing with religious nuts for some time...way worse then these folks too...such as Islamic terrorist.

Not really. The problem was the FBI had no one who understood millenialist movements. I'd even go so far to say that a lot of the stuff they did, like the Psy-Ops playing of animals being killed and loud music, was actually detrimental when dealing with people who were already crazy.


4) It could have turned out way differently, if the Clinton Admin had simply followed regular police procedure instead of trying to show a huge military force. This really was one of the key moments that lead to the militarization of law enforcement

Uh, you know what lead to the militarization of law enforcement.
The militarization of criminals.

The fucking NRA and gun industry and YES - guys like Koresh, selling military grade weapons to very bad people. That's why law enforcement needs tanks now...

What a fucking dumb ass. Speaking of dumb-asses.

Koresh was their leader. Had they taken him in town, everything else may have been peacefully resolved.

But there's no point in discussing this with you further because you're a dishonest, partisan, hack.

Again, I've argued both sides of this on my career as an internet pundit... the facts are just not on your side.

True, the ATF could have arrested Koresh on a trip into town... but the problem was, they were after the guns his supporters were modifying illegally, so they STILL had to get into that compound.
1) I was just correcting your point that they were there to arrest him. I don't disagree
2) yes the military did The Waco Siege was the most controversial use of federal force in decades - We Are The Mighty " On April 19th, agents from the FBI and ATF, as well as troops from the U.S. Army and Texas National Guard, were authorized by Clinton to assault the compound. "
3) that's BS...they had been dealing with paramilitary groups for years...from KKK, Black Panthers, Islamic terrorist etc
4)The NRA never sold a firearm to anyone. This was the first major invent that lead to the militarization of policing.

I certainly don't disagree that he should have simply complied...but that's true of any search warrant or arrest...but often times folks don't...what we are dealing with a lot today, is directly related to how the Clinton Admin, and Congress at the time decided to go from policing, with law enforcement, to militaization.

Watch the video of the BATF on the roof more carefully.
It looks like the BATF suddenly take fire from inside the second floor.
You see bullet holes in the wall left of the window.
But then later in the video they show BATF entering the window and there being no bullet holes.
That means the video is out of order, and the first BATF entered without opposition, but then the second group of BATF tried to enter by shooting first, and the BATF already inside returned their fire.
The Branch Davidians were not at all the ones who started the shooting.
 

JoeB131

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Child molesting is under local jurisdiction, not federal, and the point is not whether or not Koresh should be arrested, but why raid the ranch and murder all the children there?

Because the children were in danger being with these people. that was the point. The local sheriff was corrupted.

It is well recorded that the Branch Davidians did not fire first.
The BATF on the roof started the shooting first, and accidentally shot other BATF.
It is all on the video if you watch is in the right order.
You can tell when it is in the right order because then bullet holes in the wall next to and above the window, do not disappear magically.

Oh, noes, more crazy "Video Analysis". Uh, guy, we had three investigations of Waco, and they all found the same thing. The Davidians fired first. They knew these guys were ATF Agents and they broke out the guns.


You right wing fucks justify cops shooting kids playing with toys or reaching for cell phones as okay because "scary black people", but a bunch of fucked up inbred cultists stockpiling guns and molesting kids get all this consideration from you... because they're white?
 

bigrebnc1775

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Wow, still trying to make child-molesting cultists into martyrs? Really?

This is how the right wing went nuts.
Chipman lied no one fired on the texas national guard helicopters
 

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