Who Are The Palestinians?

[MJB12741]

The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.

These articles are not from "team Palestine":

http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports

View attachment 33549
So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?
Israel did not deny the palestinians a right to live in Israel or even to have their own state side by side. Palestinians want the extermination of Israel and jews for the last two hundred years.
Of course palestinians are also related the egyptian, turks, iranians and cretans. Just because they come the same grouping does not mean they are the same as jews. They did not exist as a "people" but now claim to be indigenous while denying the origins of jews.
If you are trying to prove palestinians have origins in the middle east, of course. If you are trying to prove they are jews, no. If your trying to disprove the jews right to their homeland, no.
We are not talking tribes in brazil vs jews or jews vs south arficans. But there is not denying the jews have maintains their identity both culturally and genetically to the jews forced out by the romans or the jews that returned centuries ago or less than a hundred years ago.
The document basically says their share less than a 10% genetic markers, not that they are identical or indistinguishable.
Explain to the palestinians they should recognize Israels right to exist as a jewish state and that jews have as much right, if not more so, to their own state and identity.
The paper does not dispute egyptian or other middle eastern origins for the palestinians. It does not disprove that close to half those given the name of palestinians at the end of the mandate were immigrants from egypt, jordan, syria or elsewhere in the region.
It was an abstract hypotheses for considerations. A thought exercise common in college and in beginning a scientific study.
Palestinians try to claim that jews, be they sephardi, ashkenazi, lembi or bnei menashe, etc. have no history or religious ties to ancient or modern Israel. They deny the right of jews to live in the area Israel, WB or G.
That is not what the paper suggests.
Please explain how muslim palestinians are the only group to have a right to access the temple mount or pray in Jerusalem? Why did palestinians/jordanians destroy so many synagogues in Jerusalem and the WB? Why did they use them as stables and toilets? Why to they throw stones on the jews at the kotel? Why do they riot and set fires on the mount just because a non-muslim visits? Why do they run over infants at train stations? Why do they fire rockets at Jews? Why do they refuse to talk to jews about peace, coexistance or statehood for the palestinian people?
How does the 12 page abstract advance peace in the region for all parties?

"So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?​

There is no such things as "the Jews." There were native Jews and foreign Jews.

YEP! The native Jews were the indigenous Palestinians.

Along with other non Jews.

Correct. And not a single land theiving Muslim Palestinian like those of today.

 

[Coyote]

These articles are not from "team Palestine":

http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports

View attachment 33549
So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?
Israel did not deny the palestinians a right to live in Israel or even to have their own state side by side. Palestinians want the extermination of Israel and jews for the last two hundred years.
Of course palestinians are also related the egyptian, turks, iranians and cretans. Just because they come the same grouping does not mean they are the same as jews. They did not exist as a "people" but now claim to be indigenous while denying the origins of jews.
If you are trying to prove palestinians have origins in the middle east, of course. If you are trying to prove they are jews, no. If your trying to disprove the jews right to their homeland, no.
We are not talking tribes in brazil vs jews or jews vs south arficans. But there is not denying the jews have maintains their identity both culturally and genetically to the jews forced out by the romans or the jews that returned centuries ago or less than a hundred years ago.
The document basically says their share less than a 10% genetic markers, not that they are identical or indistinguishable.
Explain to the palestinians they should recognize Israels right to exist as a jewish state and that jews have as much right, if not more so, to their own state and identity.
The paper does not dispute egyptian or other middle eastern origins for the palestinians. It does not disprove that close to half those given the name of palestinians at the end of the mandate were immigrants from egypt, jordan, syria or elsewhere in the region.
It was an abstract hypotheses for considerations. A thought exercise common in college and in beginning a scientific study.
Palestinians try to claim that jews, be they sephardi, ashkenazi, lembi or bnei menashe, etc. have no history or religious ties to ancient or modern Israel. They deny the right of jews to live in the area Israel, WB or G.
That is not what the paper suggests.
Please explain how muslim palestinians are the only group to have a right to access the temple mount or pray in Jerusalem? Why did palestinians/jordanians destroy so many synagogues in Jerusalem and the WB? Why did they use them as stables and toilets? Why to they throw stones on the jews at the kotel? Why do they riot and set fires on the mount just because a non-muslim visits? Why do they run over infants at train stations? Why do they fire rockets at Jews? Why do they refuse to talk to jews about peace, coexistance or statehood for the palestinian people?
How does the 12 page abstract advance peace in the region for all parties?

"So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?​

There is no such things as "the Jews." There were native Jews and foreign Jews.

YEP! The native Jews were the indigenous Palestinians.

Along with other non Jews.

Correct. And not a single land theiving Muslim Palestinian like those of today.

Incorrect. Those you call "land thieving Muslim Palestinians" are closely related to those "land thieving" Jewish Palestinians.

 

[aris2chat]

Bought land is not stolen. Arabs and palestinians that owned land were willing enough to sell to jews. Abbas' change in the law regarding land sale would not be an issue if land was not still being sold to jews.
Money exchanged, deeds registered, this is not stolen. Abandoned for ten years or more and taxes paid, this is not stolen. State land developed and rented out by Israel is not stolen. Land taken by Jordan from jews and reclaimed now is not being stolen by jews, it was stolen from them. Land owned by jews in gaza that they were forced to leave and handed over to the palestinians was stolen.
In any country, land can be appropriated for public works, military, security, unpaid taxes, environmental reason and even confiscated because of criminal activity.
Fake deed printed in Beirut in the 70's and 80's were handed out to just about every family. This does not give them the right to claim the land or accuse Israel/jews of stealing the land.
I suggest most of the claims should be more carefully examined on an individual basis rather than blindly accepting the attacks and slurs of systematic stealing.
Even a threat of death under palestinian law has not stopped the sale of land.
Planting of saplings on unused land does not mean ownership of land. Regular cutting back of trees to increase the next harvest is not destruction of palestinian property by jews.
Just because a accusation is made does not mean it is always true, nor is the spreading of lies helpful to a negotiated peace process.

 

[Coyote]

Bought land is not stolen. Arabs and palestinians that owned land were willing enough to sell to jews. Abbas' change in the law regarding land sale would not be an issue if land was not still being sold to jews.
Money exchanged, deeds registered, this is not stolen. Abandoned for ten years or more and taxes paid, this is not stolen. State land developed and rented out by Israel is not stolen. Land taken by Jordan from jews and reclaimed now is not being stolen by jews, it was stolen from them. Land owned by jews in gaza that they were forced to leave and handed over to the palestinians was stolen.

Some is bought. Some is stolen. Regardless of who did the theft to whom - it is still theft is it not or is that fact that Jews lost land elsewhere justify it being done to the Palestinians?

In any country, land can be appropriated for public works, military, security, unpaid taxes, environmental reason and even confiscated because of criminal activity.
Fake deed printed in Beirut in the 70's and 80's were handed out to just about every family. This does not give them the right to claim the land or accuse Israel/jews of stealing the land.

True. However - is that land "appropriated" disproportionately from Palestinians?

I suggest most of the claims should be more carefully examined on an individual basis rather than blindly accepting the attacks and slurs of systematic stealing.
Even a threat of death under palestinian law has not stopped the sale of land.

I agree, they should be examined individualy. Does that include the frequent claims of "land theiving Palestinians" or "Palestinian squatters"? Or do you only apply it to the anti-Israeli propaganda? There has been property confiscated from Palestinians in unjust ways with laws that are not applied to Jewish citizens. Multiple sources support that and you can't keep claiming it's all propoganda.

Planting of saplings on unused land does not mean ownership of land. Regular cutting back of trees to increase the next harvest is not destruction of palestinian property by jews.
Just because a accusation is made does not mean it is always true, nor is the spreading of lies helpful to a negotiated peace process.

True, but it depends on who's trees are being cut.

Spreading lies is not helpful and that includes anti-Palestinian lies as well. Systemically denying both their rights to any claims or their rights to live there is not helpful.

 

[MJB12741]

Any hopes for peace between Israel & the Palestinians in our generation is long dead. So what are the children being taught for peace in their generation?

Palestinian TV Teaches Kids The Way to Jihad Street The Investigative Project on Terrorism

 

[aris2chat]

Bought land is not stolen. Arabs and palestinians that owned land were willing enough to sell to jews. Abbas' change in the law regarding land sale would not be an issue if land was not still being sold to jews.
Money exchanged, deeds registered, this is not stolen. Abandoned for ten years or more and taxes paid, this is not stolen. State land developed and rented out by Israel is not stolen. Land taken by Jordan from jews and reclaimed now is not being stolen by jews, it was stolen from them. Land owned by jews in gaza that they were forced to leave and handed over to the palestinians was stolen.

Some is bought. Some is stolen. Regardless of who did the theft to whom - it is still theft is it not or is that fact that Jews lost land elsewhere justify it being done to the Palestinians?

In any country, land can be appropriated for public works, military, security, unpaid taxes, environmental reason and even confiscated because of criminal activity.
Fake deed printed in Beirut in the 70's and 80's were handed out to just about every family. This does not give them the right to claim the land or accuse Israel/jews of stealing the land.

True. However - is that land "appropriated" disproportionately from Palestinians?

I suggest most of the claims should be more carefully examined on an individual basis rather than blindly accepting the attacks and slurs of systematic stealing.
Even a threat of death under palestinian law has not stopped the sale of land.

I agree, they should be examined individualy. Does that include the frequent claims of "land theiving Palestinians" or "Palestinian squatters"? Or do you only apply it to the anti-Israeli propaganda? There has been property confiscated from Palestinians in unjust ways with laws that are not applied to Jewish citizens. Multiple sources support that and you can't keep claiming it's all propoganda.

Planting of saplings on unused land does not mean ownership of land. Regular cutting back of trees to increase the next harvest is not destruction of palestinian property by jews.
Just because a accusation is made does not mean it is always true, nor is the spreading of lies helpful to a negotiated peace process.

True, but it depends on who's trees are being cut.

Spreading lies is not helpful and that includes anti-Palestinian lies as well. Systemically denying both their rights to any claims or their rights to live there is not helpful.

Is it right for Israel to have so many arab/palestinian citizens while palestinians outside of Israel demand a jew free state? If Israel were to force all the jews in the WB to give up their lives, homes and businesses to start over in Israel, should Israel kick out all the arab/palestinians/muslims out of Israel?
Israel does not kill people for selling their land in Israel to a non-jew, but the PA does. Even if half of "settlement" land was not previously owned by jews before '48 or bought from palestinians after '67, should all those jews who do own the land be forced to leave if they are willing to become palestinian citizens?
If palestinians are unwilling to make peace with Israel, should Israel give up the high ground vital their security? Israel pulled out of Gaza and it did not bring a more peaceful cooperative relationship. If palestinians won't even talk with Israel and prefer the , why should Israel

 

[Coyote]

Bought land is not stolen. Arabs and palestinians that owned land were willing enough to sell to jews. Abbas' change in the law regarding land sale would not be an issue if land was not still being sold to jews.
Money exchanged, deeds registered, this is not stolen. Abandoned for ten years or more and taxes paid, this is not stolen. State land developed and rented out by Israel is not stolen. Land taken by Jordan from jews and reclaimed now is not being stolen by jews, it was stolen from them. Land owned by jews in gaza that they were forced to leave and handed over to the palestinians was stolen.

Some is bought. Some is stolen. Regardless of who did the theft to whom - it is still theft is it not or is that fact that Jews lost land elsewhere justify it being done to the Palestinians?

In any country, land can be appropriated for public works, military, security, unpaid taxes, environmental reason and even confiscated because of criminal activity.
Fake deed printed in Beirut in the 70's and 80's were handed out to just about every family. This does not give them the right to claim the land or accuse Israel/jews of stealing the land.

True. However - is that land "appropriated" disproportionately from Palestinians?

I suggest most of the claims should be more carefully examined on an individual basis rather than blindly accepting the attacks and slurs of systematic stealing.
Even a threat of death under palestinian law has not stopped the sale of land.

I agree, they should be examined individualy. Does that include the frequent claims of "land theiving Palestinians" or "Palestinian squatters"? Or do you only apply it to the anti-Israeli propaganda? There has been property confiscated from Palestinians in unjust ways with laws that are not applied to Jewish citizens. Multiple sources support that and you can't keep claiming it's all propoganda.

Planting of saplings on unused land does not mean ownership of land. Regular cutting back of trees to increase the next harvest is not destruction of palestinian property by jews.
Just because a accusation is made does not mean it is always true, nor is the spreading of lies helpful to a negotiated peace process.

True, but it depends on who's trees are being cut.

Spreading lies is not helpful and that includes anti-Palestinian lies as well. Systemically denying both their rights to any claims or their rights to live there is not helpful.

Is it right for Israel to have so many arab/palestinian citizens while palestinians outside of Israel demand a jew free state?

They haven't demanded a "jew free state".

Who is spreading lies here? If it's based on Abbas' quote, then it's an outright lie.

If Israel were to force all the jews in the WB to give up their lives, homes and businesses to start over in Israel, should Israel kick out all the arab/palestinians/muslims out of Israel?

No.

The solution would be for those Israelis who remain in whatever portions of WB that is negotiated into a Palestinian states to have a choice. They can elect to stay in the new Palestinian state and become Palestinian citizens or elect to reject that and move to Israel. For those portions of the WB that become part of Israel - the Palestinians can have the same choice - stay and become Israeli citizens or move to Palestine. That seems fair to me.

Israel does not kill people for selling their land in Israel to a non-jew, but the PA does.

The PA? Or, individual Palestinians?

Even if half of "settlement" land was not previously owned by jews before '48 or bought from palestinians after '67, should all those jews who do own the land be forced to leave if they are willing to become palestinian citizens?

Do you mean if they are "unwilling" to become Palestinian citizens? In that case - it would have to be resolved in some manner through the process of negotiations and how is the rightful owner of the land. If they don't wish to become Palestinian citizens they could sell up and move.

If palestinians are unwilling to make peace with Israel, should Israel give up the high ground vital their security? Israel pulled out of Gaza and it did not bring a more peaceful cooperative relationship. If palestinians won't even talk with Israel and prefer the , why should Israel

No, I agree that Israel has to be secure (keeping the Golan Heights comes to mind here) - however, Israel has also stretched the justification of "security" to excessive limits.

 

[aris2chat]

Bought land is not stolen. Arabs and palestinians that owned land were willing enough to sell to jews. Abbas' change in the law regarding land sale would not be an issue if land was not still being sold to jews.
Money exchanged, deeds registered, this is not stolen. Abandoned for ten years or more and taxes paid, this is not stolen. State land developed and rented out by Israel is not stolen. Land taken by Jordan from jews and reclaimed now is not being stolen by jews, it was stolen from them. Land owned by jews in gaza that they were forced to leave and handed over to the palestinians was stolen.

Some is bought. Some is stolen. Regardless of who did the theft to whom - it is still theft is it not or is that fact that Jews lost land elsewhere justify it being done to the Palestinians?

In any country, land can be appropriated for public works, military, security, unpaid taxes, environmental reason and even confiscated because of criminal activity.
Fake deed printed in Beirut in the 70's and 80's were handed out to just about every family. This does not give them the right to claim the land or accuse Israel/jews of stealing the land.

True. However - is that land "appropriated" disproportionately from Palestinians?

I suggest most of the claims should be more carefully examined on an individual basis rather than blindly accepting the attacks and slurs of systematic stealing.
Even a threat of death under palestinian law has not stopped the sale of land.

I agree, they should be examined individualy. Does that include the frequent claims of "land theiving Palestinians" or "Palestinian squatters"? Or do you only apply it to the anti-Israeli propaganda? There has been property confiscated from Palestinians in unjust ways with laws that are not applied to Jewish citizens. Multiple sources support that and you can't keep claiming it's all propoganda.

Planting of saplings on unused land does not mean ownership of land. Regular cutting back of trees to increase the next harvest is not destruction of palestinian property by jews.
Just because a accusation is made does not mean it is always true, nor is the spreading of lies helpful to a negotiated peace process.

True, but it depends on who's trees are being cut.

Spreading lies is not helpful and that includes anti-Palestinian lies as well. Systemically denying both their rights to any claims or their rights to live there is not helpful.

Is it right for Israel to have so many arab/palestinian citizens while palestinians outside of Israel demand a jew free state?

They haven't demanded a "jew free state".

Who is spreading lies here? If it's based on Abbas' quote, then it's an outright lie.

If Israel were to force all the jews in the WB to give up their lives, homes and businesses to start over in Israel, should Israel kick out all the arab/palestinians/muslims out of Israel?

No.

The solution would be for those Israelis who remain in whatever portions of WB that is negotiated into a Palestinian states to have a choice. They can elect to stay in the new Palestinian state and become Palestinian citizens or elect to reject that and move to Israel. For those portions of the WB that become part of Israel - the Palestinians can have the same choice - stay and become Israeli citizens or move to Palestine. That seems fair to me.

Israel does not kill people for selling their land in Israel to a non-jew, but the PA does.

The PA? Or, individual Palestinians?

Even if half of "settlement" land was not previously owned by jews before '48 or bought from palestinians after '67, should all those jews who do own the land be forced to leave if they are willing to become palestinian citizens?

Do you mean if they are "unwilling" to become Palestinian citizens? In that case - it would have to be resolved in some manner through the process of negotiations and how is the rightful owner of the land. If they don't wish to become Palestinian citizens they could sell up and move.

If palestinians are unwilling to make peace with Israel, should Israel give up the high ground vital their security? Israel pulled out of Gaza and it did not bring a more peaceful cooperative relationship. If palestinians won't even talk with Israel and prefer the , why should Israel

No, I agree that Israel has to be secure (keeping the Golan Heights comes to mind here) - however, Israel has also stretched the justification of "security" to excessive limits.

You should listen to rallies, speeches and sermons over the last century in arab. Politicians, militia members, clerics, students and just the average Ali on the streets. Read the speeches from the UN, TV, radio and even the arab press.
I grew up listening how jews, Israelis and anyone that thinks Israel has a right to exist should be wiped off the face of the earth. I was targeted for not spouting the arab rhetoric. I've been verbally attack by rabid pro-Israelis for arguing certain point on behalf the the palestinians.
If you get rid of the language of hate I like to believe there is a chance for so existence, even friendship.
I even hid myself and tried to ignore what was happening in the middle east for years. I eventually found I could not live with my head buried. I still don't understand how anyone can think of themselves as moral individuals and support the hostilities in the region or elsewhere.
I'd like all sides to listen and try to understand other view point and make decisions on logic and not passions or lies passed down through generations.
I've seen the results of hate and violence both against Israel and in civil war. I don't think security and peace agreements can be taken casually when to do so could well mean genocide. I've also seen how differing faiths, politics, races and nations can work and live together in friendship.
I prefer the later.

If you don't feel safe you can not be happy or lead a productive life in general or within a family unit. Feeling safe is more importance that feeling loved. You can't freely give of yourself if you are always on edge or looking over your shoulder. So no I don't think stressing security can be limited. If you feel safe within a group you can openly discuss and examine all points of view. You can search and experiment for alternative and improvements. Even failures can be a be a positive learning process in a safe environment.

Do you really think security can be so easily dismissed? Why do nations have armies or make agreements with other nations. Why do you lock your door? Why do you look both was when crossing the road? Why do you get vaccines? Why do you teach kids not to talk to strangers or get in a strange car? Why do we have passwords on our computers? Why don't people jump out of airplanes without a parachute or go play sports without safety equipment? Why don't we ban seat belts and airbags or even car doors and bumpers? Do you truly live without thinking about safety, without concern for what the future will hold for your or the generations that follow? Why do we recycle? Why do we object to spilling poisonous chemicals in our water or soil? Why do we have firefighters or even smoke alarms?

Why should Israel take it's security for granted when billions of people surrounding them are calling for their extermination? When millions of jews were killed less than a century ago? When Israel has been involved in 15 wars in less than 70 years? When neighbors are firing rocket, bombing and killing it's citizens?

 

[Coyote]

Bought land is not stolen. Arabs and palestinians that owned land were willing enough to sell to jews. Abbas' change in the law regarding land sale would not be an issue if land was not still being sold to jews.
Money exchanged, deeds registered, this is not stolen. Abandoned for ten years or more and taxes paid, this is not stolen. State land developed and rented out by Israel is not stolen. Land taken by Jordan from jews and reclaimed now is not being stolen by jews, it was stolen from them. Land owned by jews in gaza that they were forced to leave and handed over to the palestinians was stolen.

Some is bought. Some is stolen. Regardless of who did the theft to whom - it is still theft is it not or is that fact that Jews lost land elsewhere justify it being done to the Palestinians?

In any country, land can be appropriated for public works, military, security, unpaid taxes, environmental reason and even confiscated because of criminal activity.
Fake deed printed in Beirut in the 70's and 80's were handed out to just about every family. This does not give them the right to claim the land or accuse Israel/jews of stealing the land.

True. However - is that land "appropriated" disproportionately from Palestinians?

I suggest most of the claims should be more carefully examined on an individual basis rather than blindly accepting the attacks and slurs of systematic stealing.
Even a threat of death under palestinian law has not stopped the sale of land.

I agree, they should be examined individualy. Does that include the frequent claims of "land theiving Palestinians" or "Palestinian squatters"? Or do you only apply it to the anti-Israeli propaganda? There has been property confiscated from Palestinians in unjust ways with laws that are not applied to Jewish citizens. Multiple sources support that and you can't keep claiming it's all propoganda.

Planting of saplings on unused land does not mean ownership of land. Regular cutting back of trees to increase the next harvest is not destruction of palestinian property by jews.
Just because a accusation is made does not mean it is always true, nor is the spreading of lies helpful to a negotiated peace process.

True, but it depends on who's trees are being cut.

Spreading lies is not helpful and that includes anti-Palestinian lies as well. Systemically denying both their rights to any claims or their rights to live there is not helpful.

Is it right for Israel to have so many arab/palestinian citizens while palestinians outside of Israel demand a jew free state?

They haven't demanded a "jew free state".

Who is spreading lies here? If it's based on Abbas' quote, then it's an outright lie.

If Israel were to force all the jews in the WB to give up their lives, homes and businesses to start over in Israel, should Israel kick out all the arab/palestinians/muslims out of Israel?

No.

The solution would be for those Israelis who remain in whatever portions of WB that is negotiated into a Palestinian states to have a choice. They can elect to stay in the new Palestinian state and become Palestinian citizens or elect to reject that and move to Israel. For those portions of the WB that become part of Israel - the Palestinians can have the same choice - stay and become Israeli citizens or move to Palestine. That seems fair to me.

Israel does not kill people for selling their land in Israel to a non-jew, but the PA does.

The PA? Or, individual Palestinians?

Even if half of "settlement" land was not previously owned by jews before '48 or bought from palestinians after '67, should all those jews who do own the land be forced to leave if they are willing to become palestinian citizens?

Do you mean if they are "unwilling" to become Palestinian citizens? In that case - it would have to be resolved in some manner through the process of negotiations and how is the rightful owner of the land. If they don't wish to become Palestinian citizens they could sell up and move.

If palestinians are unwilling to make peace with Israel, should Israel give up the high ground vital their security? Israel pulled out of Gaza and it did not bring a more peaceful cooperative relationship. If palestinians won't even talk with Israel and prefer the , why should Israel

No, I agree that Israel has to be secure (keeping the Golan Heights comes to mind here) - however, Israel has also stretched the justification of "security" to excessive limits.

You should listen to rallies, speeches and sermons over the last century in arab. Politicians, militia members, clerics, students and just the average Ali on the streets. Read the speeches from the UN, TV, radio and even the arab press.
I grew up listening how jews, Israelis and anyone that thinks Israel has a right to exist should be wiped off the face of the earth. I was targeted for not spouting the arab rhetoric. I've been verbally attack by rabid pro-Israelis for arguing certain point on behalf the the palestinians.
If you get rid of the language of hate I like to believe there is a chance for so existence, even friendship.
I even hid myself and tried to ignore what was happening in the middle east for years. I eventually found I could not live with my head buried. I still don't understand how anyone can think of themselves as moral individuals and support the hostilities in the region or elsewhere.
I'd like all sides to listen and try to understand other view point and make decisions on logic and not passions or lies passed down through generations.
I've seen the results of hate and violence both against Israel and in civil war. I don't think security and peace agreements can be taken casually when to do so could well mean genocide. I've also seen how differing faiths, politics, races and nations can work and live together in friendship.
I prefer the later.

If you don't feel safe you can not be happy or lead a productive life in general or within a family unit. Feeling safe is more importance that feeling loved. You can't freely give of yourself if you are always on edge or looking over your shoulder. So no I don't think stressing security can be limited. If you feel safe within a group you can openly discuss and examine all points of view. You can search and experiment for alternative and improvements. Even failures can be a be a positive learning process in a safe environment.

Do you really think security can be so easily dismissed? Why do nations have armies or make agreements with other nations. Why do you lock your door? Why do you look both was when crossing the road? Why do you get vaccines? Why do you teach kids not to talk to strangers or get in a strange car? Why do we have passwords on our computers? Why don't people jump out of airplanes without a parachute or go play sports without safety equipment? Why don't we ban seat belts and airbags or even car doors and bumpers? Do you truly live without thinking about safety, without concern for what the future will hold for your or the generations that follow? Why do we recycle? Why do we object to spilling poisonous chemicals in our water or soil? Why do we have firefighters or even smoke alarms?

Why should Israel take it's security for granted when billions of people surrounding them are calling for their extermination? When millions of jews were killed less than a century ago? When Israel has been involved in 15 wars in less than 70 years? When neighbors are firing rocket, bombing and killing it's citizens?

Aris...there is a lot of what you say that I agree with. When you talk about Israel's security - I already said - I agree with and understand that need. Israel can not compromise on it's national security and I gave as an example the Golan heights. I do understand that. I also don't criticize Israel for going after Hamas in Gaza this last time - no nation would tolerate rocket fire into it's territory.

But there are always two sides here. No one can thrive without feeling safe. No learning can occur without safety being met first. The funny thing is, I learned this in dog training. If minimal needs - most prime - safety and security - aren't met - nothing else matters. All I want to say here is that yes - safety and security are important but also is a sense of belonging. Of citizenship. Of being a people. Of having a home. Israeli's lack security. Palestinians lack both security and a home. Of the former - their actions bring it on themselves in many ways. Of the latter - this needs to be addressed.

On the language of hate? I agree. And the Palestinians are very guilty of that.

Let me ask you this Aris - what do you think of the ongoing policy of increased seperation of Palestinians and Jews? Do you think this is benificial to the process or harmful? I think it's harmful. I think when you have Palestinians who have never met a Jew and Jews who have never met a Palestinian - then it is becomes easy to buy into the rhetoric of hate. Because you don't know any REAL people as people. I think this has had a role in the deterioration of relations and the ease with which each side sees the other as subhuman.

Thank you for a very very good post!

 

[P F Tinmore]

I don't see any real difference between Arabs and Jews.The differences all seem to be Israel related. I think that the animosities are fueled by Israel's policies.

 

[aris2chat]

Bought land is not stolen. Arabs and palestinians that owned land were willing enough to sell to jews. Abbas' change in the law regarding land sale would not be an issue if land was not still being sold to jews.
Money exchanged, deeds registered, this is not stolen. Abandoned for ten years or more and taxes paid, this is not stolen. State land developed and rented out by Israel is not stolen. Land taken by Jordan from jews and reclaimed now is not being stolen by jews, it was stolen from them. Land owned by jews in gaza that they were forced to leave and handed over to the palestinians was stolen.

Some is bought. Some is stolen. Regardless of who did the theft to whom - it is still theft is it not or is that fact that Jews lost land elsewhere justify it being done to the Palestinians?

In any country, land can be appropriated for public works, military, security, unpaid taxes, environmental reason and even confiscated because of criminal activity.
Fake deed printed in Beirut in the 70's and 80's were handed out to just about every family. This does not give them the right to claim the land or accuse Israel/jews of stealing the land.

True. However - is that land "appropriated" disproportionately from Palestinians?

I suggest most of the claims should be more carefully examined on an individual basis rather than blindly accepting the attacks and slurs of systematic stealing.
Even a threat of death under palestinian law has not stopped the sale of land.

I agree, they should be examined individualy. Does that include the frequent claims of "land theiving Palestinians" or "Palestinian squatters"? Or do you only apply it to the anti-Israeli propaganda? There has been property confiscated from Palestinians in unjust ways with laws that are not applied to Jewish citizens. Multiple sources support that and you can't keep claiming it's all propoganda.

Planting of saplings on unused land does not mean ownership of land. Regular cutting back of trees to increase the next harvest is not destruction of palestinian property by jews.
Just because a accusation is made does not mean it is always true, nor is the spreading of lies helpful to a negotiated peace process.

True, but it depends on who's trees are being cut.

Spreading lies is not helpful and that includes anti-Palestinian lies as well. Systemically denying both their rights to any claims or their rights to live there is not helpful.

Is it right for Israel to have so many arab/palestinian citizens while palestinians outside of Israel demand a jew free state?

They haven't demanded a "jew free state".

Who is spreading lies here? If it's based on Abbas' quote, then it's an outright lie.

If Israel were to force all the jews in the WB to give up their lives, homes and businesses to start over in Israel, should Israel kick out all the arab/palestinians/muslims out of Israel?

No.

The solution would be for those Israelis who remain in whatever portions of WB that is negotiated into a Palestinian states to have a choice. They can elect to stay in the new Palestinian state and become Palestinian citizens or elect to reject that and move to Israel. For those portions of the WB that become part of Israel - the Palestinians can have the same choice - stay and become Israeli citizens or move to Palestine. That seems fair to me.

Israel does not kill people for selling their land in Israel to a non-jew, but the PA does.

The PA? Or, individual Palestinians?

Even if half of "settlement" land was not previously owned by jews before '48 or bought from palestinians after '67, should all those jews who do own the land be forced to leave if they are willing to become palestinian citizens?

Do you mean if they are "unwilling" to become Palestinian citizens? In that case - it would have to be resolved in some manner through the process of negotiations and how is the rightful owner of the land. If they don't wish to become Palestinian citizens they could sell up and move.

If palestinians are unwilling to make peace with Israel, should Israel give up the high ground vital their security? Israel pulled out of Gaza and it did not bring a more peaceful cooperative relationship. If palestinians won't even talk with Israel and prefer the , why should Israel

No, I agree that Israel has to be secure (keeping the Golan Heights comes to mind here) - however, Israel has also stretched the justification of "security" to excessive limits.

You should listen to rallies, speeches and sermons over the last century in arab. Politicians, militia members, clerics, students and just the average Ali on the streets. Read the speeches from the UN, TV, radio and even the arab press.
I grew up listening how jews, Israelis and anyone that thinks Israel has a right to exist should be wiped off the face of the earth. I was targeted for not spouting the arab rhetoric. I've been verbally attack by rabid pro-Israelis for arguing certain point on behalf the the palestinians.
If you get rid of the language of hate I like to believe there is a chance for so existence, even friendship.
I even hid myself and tried to ignore what was happening in the middle east for years. I eventually found I could not live with my head buried. I still don't understand how anyone can think of themselves as moral individuals and support the hostilities in the region or elsewhere.
I'd like all sides to listen and try to understand other view point and make decisions on logic and not passions or lies passed down through generations.
I've seen the results of hate and violence both against Israel and in civil war. I don't think security and peace agreements can be taken casually when to do so could well mean genocide. I've also seen how differing faiths, politics, races and nations can work and live together in friendship.
I prefer the later.

If you don't feel safe you can not be happy or lead a productive life in general or within a family unit. Feeling safe is more importance that feeling loved. You can't freely give of yourself if you are always on edge or looking over your shoulder. So no I don't think stressing security can be limited. If you feel safe within a group you can openly discuss and examine all points of view. You can search and experiment for alternative and improvements. Even failures can be a be a positive learning process in a safe environment.

Do you really think security can be so easily dismissed? Why do nations have armies or make agreements with other nations. Why do you lock your door? Why do you look both was when crossing the road? Why do you get vaccines? Why do you teach kids not to talk to strangers or get in a strange car? Why do we have passwords on our computers? Why don't people jump out of airplanes without a parachute or go play sports without safety equipment? Why don't we ban seat belts and airbags or even car doors and bumpers? Do you truly live without thinking about safety, without concern for what the future will hold for your or the generations that follow? Why do we recycle? Why do we object to spilling poisonous chemicals in our water or soil? Why do we have firefighters or even smoke alarms?

Why should Israel take it's security for granted when billions of people surrounding them are calling for their extermination? When millions of jews were killed less than a century ago? When Israel has been involved in 15 wars in less than 70 years? When neighbors are firing rocket, bombing and killing it's citizens?

Aris...there is a lot of what you say that I agree with. When you talk about Israel's security - I already said - I agree with and understand that need. Israel can not compromise on it's national security and I gave as an example the Golan heights. I do understand that. I also don't criticize Israel for going after Hamas in Gaza this last time - no nation would tolerate rocket fire into it's territory.

But there are always two sides here. No one can thrive without feeling safe. No learning can occur without safety being met first. The funny thing is, I learned this in dog training. If minimal needs - most prime - safety and security - aren't met - nothing else matters. All I want to say here is that yes - safety and security are important but also is a sense of belonging. Of citizenship. Of being a people. Of having a home. Israeli's lack security. Palestinians lack both security and a home. Of the former - their actions bring it on themselves in many ways. Of the latter - this needs to be addressed.

On the language of hate? I agree. And the Palestinians are very guilty of that.

Let me ask you this Aris - what do you think of the ongoing policy of increased seperation of Palestinians and Jews? Do you think this is benificial to the process or harmful? I think it's harmful. I think when you have Palestinians who have never met a Jew and Jews who have never met a Palestinian - then it is becomes easy to buy into the rhetoric of hate. Because you don't know any REAL people as people. I think this has had a role in the deterioration of relations and the ease with which each side sees the other as subhuman.

Thank you for a very very good post!

I perfer coexistance, mixing and blending of people with differences. The world is a melting pot, why not countries, towns or neighborhoods? Israel has people of all faiths, they are a mix of ancient and modern races semitic and non-semitic. I've never believed that a palestinians state, or either part of the PA should be racially or religiously pure. I think "settlements" good for coexisting. Israelis/jews bring with them a new century, new science, medicine, curiosity, discovery. I've seen too many in that part of the world living in primitive, even my middle east standards, culture.
Muslims come out the desert and at least in the cities they couldn't get enough of learning and philosophy. They, along with the jews translated greek literature. They preserved the knowledge of the ancients, before they rejected and destroyed it, There was a time when the cities had libraries, universities and even public services comparable to the modern day. I'd like to see a return to that kind of openness and exchange of ideas.

I might not have seen what life was like before WWI in what became the mandate but I've seen what life in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Arabia and beyond was like both from pictures and even the way life was like after WWII. I've traveled the world and seen how people existed without electric, radio, vehicles, sanitary water, or health care. I've seen people farming and raising live stock with bone and wood tools they crafted themselves. I remember the vast spaces of Jordan, Syria and Lebanon with little but desert or brush and the overcrowding of cities and shopping the markets that were little change in more than a millennium. The mandate would have been little different.

I know people can preserve the best of their heritage and culture without having to still live like it was centuries ago. I've lived in part of the US that are little change in more than four hundred years. There are people in Alaska and Montana that don't have plumbing, water or stoves indoors. I don't recommend it for more than a few weeks. I learned to hunt and fish for my food, I prefer a super market. I learned to treat many heath problems with the herbs in the back yard, but I know it is limited and for somethings modern medicine is better.

Israel and palestinians working together will be a benefit to each other on every level. I think with the right education and security that a one state might have been a better option. One country balanced between the races and religions working as one people. Unfortunately it is not really practical at this time or likely to be in the near future. Maybe after a century of peace .....

I know that a middle east with a disproportionate muslim majority that does not have political and moral protection and respect for all the minorities resorts to internal strife between the sects and does not progress as more open societies in the west. I dream, but I am also practical and know there will always be hate and jealousy within families, between neighbors and between nations. The garden is always greener. A small amount can be a good thing and stimulate competitiveness and challenge each other. There is not utopia, not everyone can be totally equal in everything. There will always be someone who makes a better pie or that comes up with better ideas. Smarter, faster, more creative or just people that are naturally kinder or even better looking. We are not meant to be clones with the same programing. Viva la difference!

 

[aris2chat]

I don't see any real difference between Arabs and Jews.The differences all seem to be Israel related. I think that the animosities are fueled by Israel's policies.

My father could tell from what part of town, what country of almost every person from the middle east. Even europeans he could tell what part of the country or city by the way the spoke and moved. It was not racist, it just was like recognizing someone had black hair or green eyes.
When you live around people in the middle east you know if they are syrian, iraqi, their religion, their education, their politics of even people you just met or that happen to be shopping in the same store.
I wish sometimes we were blind to the difference between people, but even in the US we know if someone is form the south or north east. We know a lot of their beliefs and politics by what they say or even how they carry themselves.
People in the middle east have a knack for noticing if strangers are like themselves or different. It just is. It does not have to be a good or bad thing unless it turns to hate or violence.

 

[MJB12741]

I don't see any real difference between Arabs and Jews.The differences all seem to be Israel related. I think that the animosities are fueled by Israel's policies.

Right on! I agree Israel is to blame for this ongoing conflict with their treatment of the Palestinians. Peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions to keep them in Israel. Never once have those Zionists in Israel even tried to free the Palestinians back to their indigenous homelands. Shame on Israel.

 

[Phoenall]

Israel never said it wanted to be muslim free. Israel does not want an influx of angry palestinians to be forced on them that would threaten the jewish homeland.

No..they did not say that but they sure are working hard to reduce the Muslim population aren't they? Why is it Israeli-Arab communities so seldom get building or expansion permits? How many new Israeli settlements have been built and how many Arab ones? Why is it citizenship is defined by ethnicity?

I actually agree that "right of return" is an impossible demand for Israel and I don't see it as an option. But still - historically - Israel actively particpated in driving non-Jewish Palestinians out of Israel and legislating to bar their return. How many did you say were allowed back...2000? Out of how many?

Palestinians want a jew free palestinian. It wants a jew free territory consisting of the whole mandate.

Actually what Abbas said (in discussing a Palestinian state) was: “In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo. That means no Israeli's. It means those who choose to stay become Palestinians. Somewhere it got morphed into "No Jews". At least I'm assuming this is the statement? It's the one that has been most brought up.

Israel is trying to be reasonable. It had a family reunification program for decades. At one point it was even willing to take back those arabs that had left, not the whole extended generations as well. It also offered for a time to take in 100,000 over a period of years to gradually integrate them, find housing and or jobs. Several options were put forward and later withdraw when there was no willingness to negotiate or compromise.
So yes I am being careful with the phrasing because Israel has shown they are not acting in a racist manner. Palestinians have proven to be highly racist not allowing jews to remain and become palestinian citizens, and this from Abbas.

Except that is not what Abbas said.

Hamas is not going to be persuaded if Abbas is not willing to try and consider the possibility.
Do you have a better way of determining which side is racist and which one is just being cautious under a dire threat?

Yes. Take an honest look at the treatment of people and see who's racist and who is not. There are a lot of inequities in Israel's system - the way Palestinians are treated in the judicial system and by the police and military for instance (particularly juviniles) and contrast that with how Israeli juviniles are treated. The permit system for expansion. Settlers throw stones at Palestinian children who have to pass in order to go to school. How is it handled? They go under military escort which might or might not show up. How are Palestinian stone throwers threated? Shot or arrested. So...there is racism there. It's not so pristine and clear cut as you would make it. Does that mean the Palestinians are not racist? I think many are as well and a culture based on a policy of complete seperation encourages that on both sides.

Why Does the State Department Endorse Palestinian Fight to Exclude Jews Commentary Magazine

I read this and no where is there an actual quote from Abbas about "no Jews". The issue of Jeruselum does however show that the issue is not that clear.

One of the radio shows I listen to on NPR had a piece on Jerusalem and the the issue of property in East Jerusalum. There is a lot of anger towards Jews buying property there as well as the feeling (justified) that there is an intentional government effort to reduce the resident Palestinian population and increase the Jewish population. There is a lack of transparency in the process of buying property and multiple layers of front-groups hiding the identity of the real purchasers so often, a Palestinian seller is led to think he is sellling to a Palestinian but in reality, it's a front for a Jewish developer. The dark side of this, of course is the Palestinian intolerance to Jews moving into that area and if a Palestinian is known to have sold to a Jew, he becomes a target for violence or death threats.

The Israeli government is also complicit in the process. Through use of the zoning process, they allot zones for Jewish purposes but withhold permits for Palestinians. The government also actively subsidizes Jewish projects and there are areas specifically designated for Jews only. They have also used the zoning process to redraw Jerusalem's municipal boundaries in such a way that they enlarge Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and exclude Palestinian areas from Jeruselums boundaries. When you consider the fact that Palestinians residing outside of Jerusalem can lose their Jerusalem residency status if they are gone 7 or more years (but NOT Jewish residents) -it paints a compellling picture of how demographics are being manipulated.

MIDEAST Israel Moves to Judaise East Jerusalem Inter Press Service

According to UN figures, in 2006 at least 1,360 Palestinians had their ID cards revoked. This was five times more than in 2005, and more than in any previous year since Israel began occupying East Jerusalem.

In 2003, the Citizenship and Entry into Israel law was enacted, which denies spouses from the occupied Palestinian territories, who are married to Israeli citizens or permanent residents (Jerusalem ID card holders), the right to acquire citizenship or residency status, and thus the opportunity to live with their partners in Israel and Jerusalem.

As a result, thousands of married couples are forced to live apart from one another.

In Israel, foreign spouses who are Jewish are automatically granted citizenship under Israel's Law of Return.

Furthermore, since 1982 the Israeli Interior Ministry has not permitted the registration of Palestinian children as Jerusalem residents if the child's father does not hold a Jerusalem ID card, even if the mother is a Jerusalem ID cardholder.​

East Jerusalem - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Until 1995, those who lived abroad for more than seven years or obtained residency or citizenship in another country were deemed liable to lose their residency status. In 1995, Israel began revoking permanent residency status from former Arab residents of Jerusalem who could not prove that their "center of life" was still in Jerusalem. This policy was rescinded four years later. In March 2000, the Minister of the Interior, Natan Sharansky, stated that the "quiet deportation" policy would cease, the prior policy would be restored, and Arab natives to Jerusalem would be able to regain residency[62] if they could prove that they have visited Israel at least once every three years. Since December 1995, permanent residency of more than 3,000 individuals "expired," leaving them with neither citizenship nor residency.[62] Despite changes in policy under Sharansky, in 2006 the number of former Arab Jerusalemites to lose their residency status was 1,363, a sixfold increase on the year before.[63] The loss of status is automatic and sometimes occurs without their knowledge.​

Israel also has severely curtailed it's "family reunification" to the point where it's disengenious to use that as an indication that there is no racism. Israeli communities are allowed to reject potential applicants based on ethnic or cultural characteristics thus encourging ever more isolation between the two groups. According to one poll - 42% of Israeli's had never met a Palestinian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/opinion/rula-jebreal-minority-life-in-israel.html?_r=0

In September, Israel’s Supreme Court dismissed a petition challenging the Admissions Committees Law, which allows communities to reject housing applicants based on “cultural and social suitability” — a legal pretext to deny residency to non-Jews. In practice, even before the law was passed, it was virtually impossible for a Palestinian to buy or rent a home in any majority-Jewish city.​

So when you look at this...who is racist? The Palestinians? The Israeli's? Both? Neither?

Israel Daily News Stream 0730 2013

Abbas Palestine will be Judenrein - Middle East - News - Arutz Sheva

Abbas No Jews in Palestinian State

Abbas 8217 Palestine No Jews Allowed

Each of these - it's the same deliberately contorted quote.

These all say the same thing:

Claim : Abbas: Palestinian state will be judenrein or Jew free.
Then right below it it shows the quote: "In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli -- civilian or soldier -- on our lands".
No Israeli's. In otherwords - they will all be, whatever they are - Palestinian citizens and there will be no foreign military presence or "settlers" who do not take on Palestinian citizenship.

It does NOT say "judenrein" nor does it say "jew free" - that is a dishonest and misleading claim attempting, through the use of the german term - to equate this and Abbas to Hitler and the Nazi's. Very dishonest in my opinion.

In doing so - is this also an attempt to incite hate?

Who is racist?

Who is RACIST look no further than the arab muslims, and here is the link that prove Abbas said no jews in Palestine

Abbas Arabs in Israel No Jews in Palestine Commentary Magazine


Abbas left no doubt about what his vision of peace entails:
“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo.

 

[Phoenall]

What "just solution that recognizes and respects the shared humanity and needs of both peoples" would you suggest for Israel with a people who duly elected Hamas to annihilate Israel off the face of the earth?

Give them a state and hold them accountable just as you would any other state.

WHERE should Israel "give them a state & hold them accountable" where they cannot continue to suuport Hamas to annihilate Israel?

Negotiate for parts of the West Bank as was originally invisioned. Keep in mind - Israel got it's state despite it's terrorist activities against the Brits and Arabs.

Once they have a state they have something to lose. They can b e held accountable as a state for aggression or terrorism and be held to the same sanctions as any other state.

And the Palestinians have their state despite their terrorist activities against the British, Jews, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Germany and the USA. So why aren't they held accountable now for their aggression and terrorism. They have nothing to lose as they have put nothing into their state since 1988. The UN should give them a deadline to prove their ability to govern themselves or withdraw their membership of the UN

What state?

The one they declared in 1988 and that the UN has accepted, I did not say that they had declared any land as Palestine because to do so would mean they would need to prove themselves capable of governing.

State of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The State of Palestine has claimed sovereignty over the West Bank and Gaza Strip,[16] and has designated Jerusalem as its capital,[ii][3][4] with partial control of those areas assumed in 1994 as the Palestinian Authority. Most of the areas claimed by the State of Palestine have been occupied by Israel since 1967 in the aftermath of the Six-Day War.[7] In 2012, the State of Palestine was granted non-member observer status by the United Nations (UN

 

[Phoenall]

New palestinian towns of Rawabi, Talet Nueima and Batir in the WB with another to be planned in the jordan valley. Jdeideh will be a new palestinians town in Israel. Rahat and Tel as-Sabi were built for the bedouin in the negev.
New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.

Rahat is a ghetto built to dump the Bedouins when Israel steals their land.

Evicting the Bedouin - Israel/Palestine

Ghettos don't usually win ISOCARP awards

http://www.restorationplanning.com/

What does that have to do with anything?

What bedouin live in horrid conditions and Israel is trying to get them to live in decent modern housing

ISRAEL, Bedouin Ghetto

And who built those ghettos, as it wasn't the Israelis was it. The Bedouin are squatting illegally on Israeli land so the Israelis have offered them a place to call their own in Israel, very easy to find out the truth if you look on the internet.

 

[Phoenall]

No the vast majority are illegal immigrants with less than 150 years occupancy in Palestine, the Jews have a common ancestry to the M.E. as shown by DNA testing of all the worlds Jews. The Jews who never left the land have a very close match to the Jews of Eastern Europe, Iran, Ethiopia, America and the UK. The arab muslims show a varied DNA mix with very little in common wit even people living in the same village. Now this is either inter breeding with close family members or recent migration from outside the area. So how can they be as indigenous a the Jews when less than 10% of their DNA is the same. ( outside of the human genome )

If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem

As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".

The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%

It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.

I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.

The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.

These articles are not from "team Palestine":

http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports

The first is very pro Palestinian if you look at the editorial, so making it team Palestine. The second is a blog, one persons own views, so again is very pro Palestinian, making it team Palestine.


Keep trying

 

[MJB12741]

If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem

As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".

The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%

It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.

I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.

The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.

These articles are not from "team Palestine":

http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports

The first is very pro Palestinian if you look at the editorial, so making it team Palestine. The second is a blog, one persons own views, so again is very pro Palestinian, making it team Palestine.


Keep trying

Gosh I wonder if the Palestinian supporters would agree to this? All settlers & all Palestrinians on the land without any titles or deeds have to go. Would that not be fair?

 

[Coyote]

Some is bought. Some is stolen. Regardless of who did the theft to whom - it is still theft is it not or is that fact that Jews lost land elsewhere justify it being done to the Palestinians?

True. However - is that land "appropriated" disproportionately from Palestinians?

I agree, they should be examined individualy. Does that include the frequent claims of "land theiving Palestinians" or "Palestinian squatters"? Or do you only apply it to the anti-Israeli propaganda? There has been property confiscated from Palestinians in unjust ways with laws that are not applied to Jewish citizens. Multiple sources support that and you can't keep claiming it's all propoganda.

True, but it depends on who's trees are being cut.

Spreading lies is not helpful and that includes anti-Palestinian lies as well. Systemically denying both their rights to any claims or their rights to live there is not helpful.

Is it right for Israel to have so many arab/palestinian citizens while palestinians outside of Israel demand a jew free state?

They haven't demanded a "jew free state".

Who is spreading lies here? If it's based on Abbas' quote, then it's an outright lie.

If Israel were to force all the jews in the WB to give up their lives, homes and businesses to start over in Israel, should Israel kick out all the arab/palestinians/muslims out of Israel?

No.

The solution would be for those Israelis who remain in whatever portions of WB that is negotiated into a Palestinian states to have a choice. They can elect to stay in the new Palestinian state and become Palestinian citizens or elect to reject that and move to Israel. For those portions of the WB that become part of Israel - the Palestinians can have the same choice - stay and become Israeli citizens or move to Palestine. That seems fair to me.

Israel does not kill people for selling their land in Israel to a non-jew, but the PA does.

The PA? Or, individual Palestinians?

Even if half of "settlement" land was not previously owned by jews before '48 or bought from palestinians after '67, should all those jews who do own the land be forced to leave if they are willing to become palestinian citizens?

Do you mean if they are "unwilling" to become Palestinian citizens? In that case - it would have to be resolved in some manner through the process of negotiations and how is the rightful owner of the land. If they don't wish to become Palestinian citizens they could sell up and move.

If palestinians are unwilling to make peace with Israel, should Israel give up the high ground vital their security? Israel pulled out of Gaza and it did not bring a more peaceful cooperative relationship. If palestinians won't even talk with Israel and prefer the , why should Israel

No, I agree that Israel has to be secure (keeping the Golan Heights comes to mind here) - however, Israel has also stretched the justification of "security" to excessive limits.

You should listen to rallies, speeches and sermons over the last century in arab. Politicians, militia members, clerics, students and just the average Ali on the streets. Read the speeches from the UN, TV, radio and even the arab press.
I grew up listening how jews, Israelis and anyone that thinks Israel has a right to exist should be wiped off the face of the earth. I was targeted for not spouting the arab rhetoric. I've been verbally attack by rabid pro-Israelis for arguing certain point on behalf the the palestinians.
If you get rid of the language of hate I like to believe there is a chance for so existence, even friendship.
I even hid myself and tried to ignore what was happening in the middle east for years. I eventually found I could not live with my head buried. I still don't understand how anyone can think of themselves as moral individuals and support the hostilities in the region or elsewhere.
I'd like all sides to listen and try to understand other view point and make decisions on logic and not passions or lies passed down through generations.
I've seen the results of hate and violence both against Israel and in civil war. I don't think security and peace agreements can be taken casually when to do so could well mean genocide. I've also seen how differing faiths, politics, races and nations can work and live together in friendship.
I prefer the later.

If you don't feel safe you can not be happy or lead a productive life in general or within a family unit. Feeling safe is more importance that feeling loved. You can't freely give of yourself if you are always on edge or looking over your shoulder. So no I don't think stressing security can be limited. If you feel safe within a group you can openly discuss and examine all points of view. You can search and experiment for alternative and improvements. Even failures can be a be a positive learning process in a safe environment.

Do you really think security can be so easily dismissed? Why do nations have armies or make agreements with other nations. Why do you lock your door? Why do you look both was when crossing the road? Why do you get vaccines? Why do you teach kids not to talk to strangers or get in a strange car? Why do we have passwords on our computers? Why don't people jump out of airplanes without a parachute or go play sports without safety equipment? Why don't we ban seat belts and airbags or even car doors and bumpers? Do you truly live without thinking about safety, without concern for what the future will hold for your or the generations that follow? Why do we recycle? Why do we object to spilling poisonous chemicals in our water or soil? Why do we have firefighters or even smoke alarms?

Why should Israel take it's security for granted when billions of people surrounding them are calling for their extermination? When millions of jews were killed less than a century ago? When Israel has been involved in 15 wars in less than 70 years? When neighbors are firing rocket, bombing and killing it's citizens?

Aris...there is a lot of what you say that I agree with. When you talk about Israel's security - I already said - I agree with and understand that need. Israel can not compromise on it's national security and I gave as an example the Golan heights. I do understand that. I also don't criticize Israel for going after Hamas in Gaza this last time - no nation would tolerate rocket fire into it's territory.

But there are always two sides here. No one can thrive without feeling safe. No learning can occur without safety being met first. The funny thing is, I learned this in dog training. If minimal needs - most prime - safety and security - aren't met - nothing else matters. All I want to say here is that yes - safety and security are important but also is a sense of belonging. Of citizenship. Of being a people. Of having a home. Israeli's lack security. Palestinians lack both security and a home. Of the former - their actions bring it on themselves in many ways. Of the latter - this needs to be addressed.

On the language of hate? I agree. And the Palestinians are very guilty of that.

Let me ask you this Aris - what do you think of the ongoing policy of increased seperation of Palestinians and Jews? Do you think this is benificial to the process or harmful? I think it's harmful. I think when you have Palestinians who have never met a Jew and Jews who have never met a Palestinian - then it is becomes easy to buy into the rhetoric of hate. Because you don't know any REAL people as people. I think this has had a role in the deterioration of relations and the ease with which each side sees the other as subhuman.

Thank you for a very very good post!

I perfer coexistance, mixing and blending of people with differences. The world is a melting pot, why not countries, towns or neighborhoods? Israel has people of all faiths, they are a mix of ancient and modern races semitic and non-semitic. I've never believed that a palestinians state, or either part of the PA should be racially or religiously pure. I think "settlements" good for coexisting. Israelis/jews bring with them a new century, new science, medicine, curiosity, discovery. I've seen too many in that part of the world living in primitive, even my middle east standards, culture.
Muslims come out the desert and at least in the cities they couldn't get enough of learning and philosophy. They, along with the jews translated greek literature. They preserved the knowledge of the ancients, before they rejected and destroyed it, There was a time when the cities had libraries, universities and even public services comparable to the modern day. I'd like to see a return to that kind of openness and exchange of ideas.

I might not have seen what life was like before WWI in what became the mandate but I've seen what life in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Arabia and beyond was like both from pictures and even the way life was like after WWII. I've traveled the world and seen how people existed without electric, radio, vehicles, sanitary water, or health care. I've seen people farming and raising live stock with bone and wood tools they crafted themselves. I remember the vast spaces of Jordan, Syria and Lebanon with little but desert or brush and the overcrowding of cities and shopping the markets that were little change in more than a millennium. The mandate would have been little different.

I know people can preserve the best of their heritage and culture without having to still live like it was centuries ago. I've lived in part of the US that are little change in more than four hundred years. There are people in Alaska and Montana that don't have plumbing, water or stoves indoors. I don't recommend it for more than a few weeks. I learned to hunt and fish for my food, I prefer a super market. I learned to treat many heath problems with the herbs in the back yard, but I know it is limited and for somethings modern medicine is better.

Israel and palestinians working together will be a benefit to each other on every level. I think with the right education and security that a one state might have been a better option. One country balanced between the races and religions working as one people. Unfortunately it is not really practical at this time or likely to be in the near future. Maybe after a century of peace .....

I know that a middle east with a disproportionate muslim majority that does not have political and moral protection and respect for all the minorities resorts to internal strife between the sects and does not progress as more open societies in the west. I dream, but I am also practical and know there will always be hate and jealousy within families, between neighbors and between nations. The garden is always greener. A small amount can be a good thing and stimulate competitiveness and challenge each other. There is not utopia, not everyone can be totally equal in everything. There will always be someone who makes a better pie or that comes up with better ideas. Smarter, faster, more creative or just people that are naturally kinder or even better looking. We are not meant to be clones with the same programing. Viva la difference!

That is a beautiful post...and I so agree. I know we may seem on the opposite sides of an issue here...but I really really really agree!

I'm American. I love the wealth of cultures that create the patchwork quilt of our society. Everyone of them is us - enriches us as American encriches them.

I wish the world could be like that. I wish ALL America could be like that. You are so right Aris.

I wish more could see the value in this. All of us are richer for our diversity.

 

[Coyote]

Israel never said it wanted to be muslim free. Israel does not want an influx of angry palestinians to be forced on them that would threaten the jewish homeland.

No..they did not say that but they sure are working hard to reduce the Muslim population aren't they? Why is it Israeli-Arab communities so seldom get building or expansion permits? How many new Israeli settlements have been built and how many Arab ones? Why is it citizenship is defined by ethnicity?

I actually agree that "right of return" is an impossible demand for Israel and I don't see it as an option. But still - historically - Israel actively particpated in driving non-Jewish Palestinians out of Israel and legislating to bar their return. How many did you say were allowed back...2000? Out of how many?

Palestinians want a jew free palestinian. It wants a jew free territory consisting of the whole mandate.

Actually what Abbas said (in discussing a Palestinian state) was: “In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo. That means no Israeli's. It means those who choose to stay become Palestinians. Somewhere it got morphed into "No Jews". At least I'm assuming this is the statement? It's the one that has been most brought up.

Israel is trying to be reasonable. It had a family reunification program for decades. At one point it was even willing to take back those arabs that had left, not the whole extended generations as well. It also offered for a time to take in 100,000 over a period of years to gradually integrate them, find housing and or jobs. Several options were put forward and later withdraw when there was no willingness to negotiate or compromise.
So yes I am being careful with the phrasing because Israel has shown they are not acting in a racist manner. Palestinians have proven to be highly racist not allowing jews to remain and become palestinian citizens, and this from Abbas.

Except that is not what Abbas said.

Hamas is not going to be persuaded if Abbas is not willing to try and consider the possibility.
Do you have a better way of determining which side is racist and which one is just being cautious under a dire threat?

Yes. Take an honest look at the treatment of people and see who's racist and who is not. There are a lot of inequities in Israel's system - the way Palestinians are treated in the judicial system and by the police and military for instance (particularly juviniles) and contrast that with how Israeli juviniles are treated. The permit system for expansion. Settlers throw stones at Palestinian children who have to pass in order to go to school. How is it handled? They go under military escort which might or might not show up. How are Palestinian stone throwers threated? Shot or arrested. So...there is racism there. It's not so pristine and clear cut as you would make it. Does that mean the Palestinians are not racist? I think many are as well and a culture based on a policy of complete seperation encourages that on both sides.

Why Does the State Department Endorse Palestinian Fight to Exclude Jews Commentary Magazine

I read this and no where is there an actual quote from Abbas about "no Jews". The issue of Jeruselum does however show that the issue is not that clear.

One of the radio shows I listen to on NPR had a piece on Jerusalem and the the issue of property in East Jerusalum. There is a lot of anger towards Jews buying property there as well as the feeling (justified) that there is an intentional government effort to reduce the resident Palestinian population and increase the Jewish population. There is a lack of transparency in the process of buying property and multiple layers of front-groups hiding the identity of the real purchasers so often, a Palestinian seller is led to think he is sellling to a Palestinian but in reality, it's a front for a Jewish developer. The dark side of this, of course is the Palestinian intolerance to Jews moving into that area and if a Palestinian is known to have sold to a Jew, he becomes a target for violence or death threats.

The Israeli government is also complicit in the process. Through use of the zoning process, they allot zones for Jewish purposes but withhold permits for Palestinians. The government also actively subsidizes Jewish projects and there are areas specifically designated for Jews only. They have also used the zoning process to redraw Jerusalem's municipal boundaries in such a way that they enlarge Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and exclude Palestinian areas from Jeruselums boundaries. When you consider the fact that Palestinians residing outside of Jerusalem can lose their Jerusalem residency status if they are gone 7 or more years (but NOT Jewish residents) -it paints a compellling picture of how demographics are being manipulated.

MIDEAST Israel Moves to Judaise East Jerusalem Inter Press Service

According to UN figures, in 2006 at least 1,360 Palestinians had their ID cards revoked. This was five times more than in 2005, and more than in any previous year since Israel began occupying East Jerusalem.

In 2003, the Citizenship and Entry into Israel law was enacted, which denies spouses from the occupied Palestinian territories, who are married to Israeli citizens or permanent residents (Jerusalem ID card holders), the right to acquire citizenship or residency status, and thus the opportunity to live with their partners in Israel and Jerusalem.

As a result, thousands of married couples are forced to live apart from one another.

In Israel, foreign spouses who are Jewish are automatically granted citizenship under Israel's Law of Return.

Furthermore, since 1982 the Israeli Interior Ministry has not permitted the registration of Palestinian children as Jerusalem residents if the child's father does not hold a Jerusalem ID card, even if the mother is a Jerusalem ID cardholder.​

East Jerusalem - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Until 1995, those who lived abroad for more than seven years or obtained residency or citizenship in another country were deemed liable to lose their residency status. In 1995, Israel began revoking permanent residency status from former Arab residents of Jerusalem who could not prove that their "center of life" was still in Jerusalem. This policy was rescinded four years later. In March 2000, the Minister of the Interior, Natan Sharansky, stated that the "quiet deportation" policy would cease, the prior policy would be restored, and Arab natives to Jerusalem would be able to regain residency[62] if they could prove that they have visited Israel at least once every three years. Since December 1995, permanent residency of more than 3,000 individuals "expired," leaving them with neither citizenship nor residency.[62] Despite changes in policy under Sharansky, in 2006 the number of former Arab Jerusalemites to lose their residency status was 1,363, a sixfold increase on the year before.[63] The loss of status is automatic and sometimes occurs without their knowledge.​

Israel also has severely curtailed it's "family reunification" to the point where it's disengenious to use that as an indication that there is no racism. Israeli communities are allowed to reject potential applicants based on ethnic or cultural characteristics thus encourging ever more isolation between the two groups. According to one poll - 42% of Israeli's had never met a Palestinian.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/opinion/rula-jebreal-minority-life-in-israel.html?_r=0

In September, Israel’s Supreme Court dismissed a petition challenging the Admissions Committees Law, which allows communities to reject housing applicants based on “cultural and social suitability” — a legal pretext to deny residency to non-Jews. In practice, even before the law was passed, it was virtually impossible for a Palestinian to buy or rent a home in any majority-Jewish city.​

So when you look at this...who is racist? The Palestinians? The Israeli's? Both? Neither?

Israel Daily News Stream 0730 2013

Abbas Palestine will be Judenrein - Middle East - News - Arutz Sheva

Abbas No Jews in Palestinian State

Abbas 8217 Palestine No Jews Allowed

Each of these - it's the same deliberately contorted quote.

These all say the same thing:

Claim : Abbas: Palestinian state will be judenrein or Jew free.
Then right below it it shows the quote: "In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli -- civilian or soldier -- on our lands".
No Israeli's. In otherwords - they will all be, whatever they are - Palestinian citizens and there will be no foreign military presence or "settlers" who do not take on Palestinian citizenship.

It does NOT say "judenrein" nor does it say "jew free" - that is a dishonest and misleading claim attempting, through the use of the german term - to equate this and Abbas to Hitler and the Nazi's. Very dishonest in my opinion.

In doing so - is this also an attempt to incite hate?

Who is racist?

Who is RACIST look no further than the arab muslims, and here is the link that prove Abbas said no jews in Palestine

Abbas Arabs in Israel No Jews in Palestine Commentary Magazine


Abbas left no doubt about what his vision of peace entails:
“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo.

Phoenall. Find me ONE direct quote from Abbas saying "NO JEWS".

I challange you to that.