Who Are The Palestinians?

[aris2chat]

Can't simply relocate people?

You might want to ask that question of the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from Czechoslovakia's 'Sudatenland' by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from East Prussia (now Poland, after the land-grab) by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Muslims relocated to Pakistan and the Hindus relocated to India, when the old British Imperial India achieved her independence in 1947 and immediately split into modern-day Pakistan and India as we now know them, or the Jews of much of Islam, expelled or forced or nudged out of several Muslim countries, during the period 1948-1975... all of that involving millions, and all of that well within the bounds of Living Memory.

So long as the relocated people - the Palestinians in this case - receive Wergeld (compensation) and high-quality logistics support and are given land that they can truly call their own - someplace else - and are provided with large-scale assistance to build infrastructure sufficient to support them, and so long as they are assisted for a couple of decades after the Grand Moving Day, to get them well-launched into the world - relocation would be a blessing, both for the otherwise largely weak and powerless and degenerating-declining Palestinians, and their adversaries.

The Israelis and Palestinians hate each other too much to live peacefully, side by side. Too much blood has been spilled. Therefore, if that is true, logic indicates the removal of one or the other. Given that the Israelis are already the victors in this long-running fracas, and given that they are a regional superpower which can no longer be dislodged without the most extraordinary efforts, and given that the victors of a conflict dictate terms, not the losers, the burden will be upon the Palestinians, to take the "sucker's walk", and to leave.

So long as the Palestinians are well supported in this relocation by the world community, the idea of relocation stands a better chance of working than any other option still on the table. A one-state solution hasn't been on the table since the 1948-1949 timeframe. The idea of a two-state solution died with the Intifadas and the Gaza Wars. All that's left is for either the Israelis or the Palestinians to pack up and move out of harm's way, and, given the vastly superior Israeli position, the Palestinians have drawn the short straw.

The sooner that relocation can be imagined and consensus built and the sooner that the practicalities can be conjured, in order to get underway with the damned thing, the better.

No, you can't simply relocate people against their will.

Riiiiiiiight

They settlers who are illegally residing there - in some cases violating Israeli law.

and some are reclaiming jewish land taken under jordanian rule or land that was bought and then sale nullified by jordanian/palestinian law with no return of money or compensation, just because the buyer was jewish.
Why should the WB or G be "jew free".

I never said it should be.

Why is it OK for palestinians to be racists but not for Israel to seek to maintain a jewish majority, while protecting minority rights?

I never said it was ok. But look at how you word it: one side is "racist", the other side merely "seeks to maintain a jewish majority". Your choice of wording is telling in this.

Israel never said it wanted to be muslim free. Israel does not want an influx of angry palestinians to be forced on them that would threaten the jewish homeland.
Palestinians want a jew free palestinian. It wants a jew free territory consisting of the whole mandate.
Israel is trying to be reasonable. It had a family reunification program for decades. At one point it was even willing to take back those arabs that had left, not the whole extended generations as well. It also offered for a time to take in 100,000 over a period of years to gradually integrate them, find housing and or jobs. Several options were put forward and later withdraw when there was no willingness to negotiate or compromise.
So yes I am being careful with the phrasing because Israel has shown they are not acting in a racist manner. Palestinians have proven to be highly racist not allowing jews to remain and become palestinian citizens, and this from Abbas. Hamas is not going to be persuaded if Abbas is not willing to try and consider the possibility.
Do you have a better way of determining which side is racist and which one is just being cautious under a dire threat?

 

[Coyote]

Israel never said it wanted to be muslim free. Israel does not want an influx of angry palestinians to be forced on them that would threaten the jewish homeland.

No..they did not say that but they sure are working hard to reduce the Muslim population aren't they? Why is it Israeli-Arab communities so seldom get building or expansion permits? How many new Israeli settlements have been built and how many Arab ones? Why is it citizenship is defined by ethnicity?

I actually agree that "right of return" is an impossible demand for Israel and I don't see it as an option. But still - historically - Israel actively particpated in driving non-Jewish Palestinians out of Israel and legislating to bar their return. How many did you say were allowed back...2000? Out of how many?

Palestinians want a jew free palestinian. It wants a jew free territory consisting of the whole mandate.

Actually what Abbas said (in discussing a Palestinian state) was: “In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo. That means no Israeli's. It means those who choose to stay become Palestinians. Somewhere it got morphed into "No Jews". At least I'm assuming this is the statement? It's the one that has been most brought up.

Israel is trying to be reasonable. It had a family reunification program for decades. At one point it was even willing to take back those arabs that had left, not the whole extended generations as well. It also offered for a time to take in 100,000 over a period of years to gradually integrate them, find housing and or jobs. Several options were put forward and later withdraw when there was no willingness to negotiate or compromise.
So yes I am being careful with the phrasing because Israel has shown they are not acting in a racist manner. Palestinians have proven to be highly racist not allowing jews to remain and become palestinian citizens, and this from Abbas.

Except that is not what Abbas said.

Hamas is not going to be persuaded if Abbas is not willing to try and consider the possibility.
Do you have a better way of determining which side is racist and which one is just being cautious under a dire threat?

Yes. Take an honest look at the treatment of people and see who's racist and who is not. There are a lot of inequities in Israel's system - the way Palestinians are treated in the judicial system and by the police and military for instance (particularly juviniles) and contrast that with how Israeli juviniles are treated. The permit system for expansion. Settlers throw stones at Palestinian children who have to pass in order to go to school. How is it handled? They go under military escort which might or might not show up. How are Palestinian stone throwers threated? Shot or arrested. So...there is racism there. It's not so pristine and clear cut as you would make it. Does that mean the Palestinians are not racist? I think many are as well and a culture based on a policy of complete seperation encourages that on both sides.

 

[MJB12741]

Can't simply relocate people?

You might want to ask that question of the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from Czechoslovakia's 'Sudatenland' by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from East Prussia (now Poland, after the land-grab) by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Muslims relocated to Pakistan and the Hindus relocated to India, when the old British Imperial India achieved her independence in 1947 and immediately split into modern-day Pakistan and India as we now know them, or the Jews of much of Islam, expelled or forced or nudged out of several Muslim countries, during the period 1948-1975... all of that involving millions, and all of that well within the bounds of Living Memory.

So long as the relocated people - the Palestinians in this case - receive Wergeld (compensation) and high-quality logistics support and are given land that they can truly call their own - someplace else - and are provided with large-scale assistance to build infrastructure sufficient to support them, and so long as they are assisted for a couple of decades after the Grand Moving Day, to get them well-launched into the world - relocation would be a blessing, both for the otherwise largely weak and powerless and degenerating-declining Palestinians, and their adversaries.

The Israelis and Palestinians hate each other too much to live peacefully, side by side. Too much blood has been spilled. Therefore, if that is true, logic indicates the removal of one or the other. Given that the Israelis are already the victors in this long-running fracas, and given that they are a regional superpower which can no longer be dislodged without the most extraordinary efforts, and given that the victors of a conflict dictate terms, not the losers, the burden will be upon the Palestinians, to take the "sucker's walk", and to leave.

So long as the Palestinians are well supported in this relocation by the world community, the idea of relocation stands a better chance of working than any other option still on the table. A one-state solution hasn't been on the table since the 1948-1949 timeframe. The idea of a two-state solution died with the Intifadas and the Gaza Wars. All that's left is for either the Israelis or the Palestinians to pack up and move out of harm's way, and, given the vastly superior Israeli position, the Palestinians have drawn the short straw.

The sooner that relocation can be imagined and consensus built and the sooner that the practicalities can be conjured, in order to get underway with the damned thing, the better.

No, you can't simply relocate people against their will.

Riiiiiiiight

They settlers who are illegally residing there - in some cases violating Israeli law.

Okay, how about this proposal. All illegal Israeli settlers & all illegal Palestinian squatters with no titles or deeds whatsoever to the land they stole have to leave the land? Fair enough?

No. You have people who have been living there for generations if not centuries. Even some of the settlers are established for several generations at some of the oldest settlements. You can't simply evict people like that and still call yourself "civilized". Both sides need to negotiate a just and humane solution. Both sides will need to give up some land and move some populations but in the end it's the only just way to settle things.

That will never happen as long as the Palestinians elect leaders who vow to annihilate Israel. Never, ever.

 

[Coyote]

No, you can't simply relocate people against their will.

Riiiiiiiight

They settlers who are illegally residing there - in some cases violating Israeli law.

Okay, how about this proposal. All illegal Israeli settlers & all illegal Palestinian squatters with no titles or deeds whatsoever to the land they stole have to leave the land? Fair enough?

No. You have people who have been living there for generations if not centuries. Even some of the settlers are established for several generations at some of the oldest settlements. You can't simply evict people like that and still call yourself "civilized". Both sides need to negotiate a just and humane solution. Both sides will need to give up some land and move some populations but in the end it's the only just way to settle things.

That will never happen as long as the Palestinians elect leaders who vow to annihilate Israel. Never, ever.

They need to recognize Israel's right to exist...I do agree there.

 

[aris2chat]

Can't simply relocate people?

You might want to ask that question of the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from Czechoslovakia's 'Sudatenland' by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Ethnic Germans who were expelled from East Prussia (now Poland, after the land-grab) by the victorious Allies after WWII, or the Muslims relocated to Pakistan and the Hindus relocated to India, when the old British Imperial India achieved her independence in 1947 and immediately split into modern-day Pakistan and India as we now know them, or the Jews of much of Islam, expelled or forced or nudged out of several Muslim countries, during the period 1948-1975... all of that involving millions, and all of that well within the bounds of Living Memory.

So long as the relocated people - the Palestinians in this case - receive Wergeld (compensation) and high-quality logistics support and are given land that they can truly call their own - someplace else - and are provided with large-scale assistance to build infrastructure sufficient to support them, and so long as they are assisted for a couple of decades after the Grand Moving Day, to get them well-launched into the world - relocation would be a blessing, both for the otherwise largely weak and powerless and degenerating-declining Palestinians, and their adversaries.

The Israelis and Palestinians hate each other too much to live peacefully, side by side. Too much blood has been spilled. Therefore, if that is true, logic indicates the removal of one or the other. Given that the Israelis are already the victors in this long-running fracas, and given that they are a regional superpower which can no longer be dislodged without the most extraordinary efforts, and given that the victors of a conflict dictate terms, not the losers, the burden will be upon the Palestinians, to take the "sucker's walk", and to leave.

So long as the Palestinians are well supported in this relocation by the world community, the idea of relocation stands a better chance of working than any other option still on the table. A one-state solution hasn't been on the table since the 1948-1949 timeframe. The idea of a two-state solution died with the Intifadas and the Gaza Wars. All that's left is for either the Israelis or the Palestinians to pack up and move out of harm's way, and, given the vastly superior Israeli position, the Palestinians have drawn the short straw. Who knows? Perhaps the Egyptians can be persuaded or paid to part with a slice of the Sinai, or some other nearby country(ies) might be persuaded to take them (or some of them) in. Cash, and trade incentives, would work wonders, in greasing that particular wheel.

The sooner that relocation can be imagined and consensus built and the sooner that the practicalities can be conjured, in order to get underway with the damned thing, the better - and what better 'umbrella' under which to organize that humanitarian effort, than the United Nations itself? Hell, the Israelis could probably be persuaded to float the first few billions, to get the thing started, and I'm sure that the US, and much of the EU, would be willing to chip-in, if asked, in connection with a serious and viable effort along those lines... a chance to do something nice for the so-called Palestinian People that actually stands a decent chance of doing some sustainable good.

Natural disaster, war or modern progress, populations have and continue to be displaced and land taken.
Palestinians had a 10 yr period to return and claim land before it was considered abandoned.
In Lebanon, palestinians were not allowed by the PLO to return to Israel except to carry out attacks and some special circumstances such as medical or educational wavers. To apply and manage to arrange the journey was a long process.
Arafat had fake deeds printed in Beirut and old keys handed out to make claims on land in Israel. Pictures would be taken of people holding up these keys as proof of ownership of a home or land. Keys that had no locks.
There were exceptions here and there, but the majority were brainwashed or convinced themselves that land was their own even if it was not. These stories and lies were handed down through generations and taken as fact. It was part of the war. Most (of course not all) cases where claims were brought before courts in Israel on land claims the courts were in palestinian favor. Land that could not be returned were compensated with money or other land. Yes some were forced out by Israelis but this was not a standard policy. Usually it had to do with a strategic location or that the village had been complicit in the fighting or killing of jews. Israel before the main exodus and even during the war continued to ask palestinians to stay and work together to build a state.
Half left to avoid or escape war, or out of fear due to arab radio broadcasts that they would be raped or massacred. False reports were put out. Israel did not always jump to refute these reports, and in some cases too advantage of the claims, but it was far from the general policy or intent of Israel against the palestinians.
Half the population stayed and enjoyed more rights and privileges that most of the rest of the arab world.
Palestinian refugees were for the most part pawns, used by the arab states and their own leaders. Their plight could have been ended in many ways, but they were kept as the "perpetual victims of Israel " both to feed hostility among the population and as propaganda tools in the world press. That hostility spilled over in some cases to attack the host countries and justify massacres by the PLO. Bloody savagery that had been part of the taught narrative became the practice of those palestinians on fellow arabs and even in tribal blood feuds and political or sectarian wars within the camps against each other.
Nothing about the palestinian/Israeli situation is clear cut and there is blame enough to be shared by all, but the palestinians as a people are not the victims that some would have everyone believe. Much of their suffering is of their own making not wholly the fault of Israelis or jews.
The hate has been carefully crafted, spread and nurtured instead of practical solution that might have benefited all involved with a more realistic and fact based approach.

Can't wait to see any rebuttals to the facts you have posted here.

I already made my rebuttal when I showed that the Palestinians did not all leave voluntarily and that there was a deliberate plan by the Israeli's to drive them out and prevent them from returning - contrary to claims being made (which you haven't rebutted either). I don't disagree with all Aris has to say except that the Israeli's are by no means benevolent angels here and their actions are often overlooked, white washed or excused. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy and Hamas the worst by far - but I get tired of the constant re-writing of Israel's own actions - such as the claim that the Palestinians left on their own or at the urging of the Arabs and leaving out their own part in it and their role in deliberately preventing their return.

How benevolent would you be if your neighbors wanted to kill you and steal the land you have invested in developing? How would you feel if they attacked you constantly calling you all types of name and comparing you to the most vial of creatures? How would you respond to massacres of civilians, women and children, sometimes in the most horrific way?
Would you put locks on your doors and close your windows or remove the doors and invite your neighbors to have their way with you?

There is a considerable amount of mistrust and hatred of the other on both sides. The Israelis aren't exactly angels here but their transgressions get excused. None of that changes the fact that the Israeli's were instrumental and as culpable as the Arabs in driving the Palestinians out and making sure most could not return. You can not keep claiming that they had nothing to do with it or only barred the return of those who were terrorists. That simply isn't true.

I worked for almost five years with the palestinians. I helped some of the families apply for reunification and arranged transport to cyprus or egypt. I knew the threats they faced even applying. I knew the controls within the camps and at the borders to Israel. So yes I can claim certain facts. Is there anyone else with more direct experience?
I'm not without bias, no human is, but I try to be fair.
Perhaps you can find people with more direct experience with the palestinians, spent more time in the camps. Someone that has seen more victims of palestinian and more palestinian victims. Someone who has spent more time studying the region and is more involved in the current politics.
I am just sharing my own knowledge and experience as well as proving other research, news and opinions hoping other can benefit. If people didn't care they wouldn't be involved in discussion forums where information and ideas are being shared.

 

[aris2chat]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Who are the Palestinians?

Huwaida Arraf, Gaza Freedom Flotilla Organizer

 

[Phoenall]

The Palestinians are people. Human beings. Men and women and children.

Who would have thought it would be this difficult a question to answer?

Because these men, women and children are afraid to admit that they are not from Palestine originally and are recent migrants. When for 150 years they called themselves Syrians, Egyptians and Saudis and would start a war if they were called Palestinians. That is why it is so difficult to answer this question.

As the record shows in Mandatory reports to the LoN and the UN later. Nearly all the immigration was Jewish. The Christians and Muslims are the natives. Read note 5. below from the official report of the Mandatory.:

Only according to the ISLAMONAZI PROPAGANDA, the demographics paint a completely different picture. The only way the arab muslims could have increased as they did was through illegal migration. There was no way every female could give birth to triplets every 9 months to sustain the population increase in the poor 3rd world conditions. S how did they do it when the live birth rate was less than 12%

 

[aris2chat]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

New palestinian towns of Rawabi, Talet Nueima and Batir in the WB with another to be planned in the jordan valley. Jdeideh will be a new palestinians town in Israel. Rahat and Tel as-Sabi were built for the bedouin in the negev.
New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.

 

[Hossfly]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

Tinmore, I just got rid of a pantload. Want a link?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

New palestinian towns of Rawabi, Talet Nueima and Batir in the WB with another to be planned in the jordan valley. Jdeideh will be a new palestinians town in Israel. Rahat and Tel as-Sabi were built for the bedouin in the negev.
New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.

Rahat is a ghetto built to dump the Bedouins when Israel steals their land.

Evicting the Bedouin - Israel/Palestine

 

[MJB12741]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Let the facts speak for all of us. Sure is interesting how the majority of Palestinians ***** about Israel & yet how many Palestinian citizens of Israel have opted to leave Israel after all Israel has provided for them?

 

[Hossfly]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

New palestinian towns of Rawabi, Talet Nueima and Batir in the WB with another to be planned in the jordan valley. Jdeideh will be a new palestinians town in Israel. Rahat and Tel as-Sabi were built for the bedouin in the negev.
New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.

........New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.[/QUOTE]
However Abu Mazen doesn't like the idea.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has called for a special meeting of the Security Council demanding international intervention to investigate "Israeli attacks" in Jerusalem as well as "attacks" by "Jewish settlers" on the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The Palestinians want a ban on Israeli building beyond the "Green Line" including in Eastern Jerusalem. In response Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, "We have every right to build in Jerusalem."

At the opening of the winter session of the Israeli parliament Netanyahu said that, "the violence we are experiencing is not as a result of construction activities in Jerusalem. The violence is rather due to the desire of Israel's enemies, that we should not be here." The Prime Minister criticized the Palestinian demands of their own state without guarantees of peace and security. "They demand our withdrawal, their right of return of Palestinian "refugees" and the division of Jerusalem. But they refuse the elementary prerequisite of peace between the two nations. Mutual recognition!"

Meanwhile, Jordan supports the Palestinian call for a special session of the Security Council. The Jordanian Foreign Minister Nasser Judeh said that Israeli construction plans in the Palestinian territories are "a slap in the face of the international efforts to bring the negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians back on track."

Netanyahu We must build in Jerusalem - Israel Today Israel News

 

[aris2chat]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

New palestinian towns of Rawabi, Talet Nueima and Batir in the WB with another to be planned in the jordan valley. Jdeideh will be a new palestinians town in Israel. Rahat and Tel as-Sabi were built for the bedouin in the negev.
New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.

Rahat is a ghetto built to dump the Bedouins when Israel steals their land.

Evicting the Bedouin - Israel/Palestine

Ghettos don't usually win ISOCARP awards

http://www.restorationplanning.com/

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

New palestinian towns of Rawabi, Talet Nueima and Batir in the WB with another to be planned in the jordan valley. Jdeideh will be a new palestinians town in Israel. Rahat and Tel as-Sabi were built for the bedouin in the negev.
New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.

Rahat is a ghetto built to dump the Bedouins when Israel steals their land.

Evicting the Bedouin - Israel/Palestine

Ghettos don't usually win ISOCARP awards

http://www.restorationplanning.com/

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[aris2chat]

Israel never said it wanted to be muslim free. Israel does not want an influx of angry palestinians to be forced on them that would threaten the jewish homeland.

No..they did not say that but they sure are working hard to reduce the Muslim population aren't they? Why is it Israeli-Arab communities so seldom get building or expansion permits? How many new Israeli settlements have been built and how many Arab ones? Why is it citizenship is defined by ethnicity?

I actually agree that "right of return" is an impossible demand for Israel and I don't see it as an option. But still - historically - Israel actively particpated in driving non-Jewish Palestinians out of Israel and legislating to bar their return. How many did you say were allowed back...2000? Out of how many?

Palestinians want a jew free palestinian. It wants a jew free territory consisting of the whole mandate.

Actually what Abbas said (in discussing a Palestinian state) was: “In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli — civilian or soldier — on our lands,” Abbas said following a meeting with interim Egyptian President Adly Mansour in Cairo. That means no Israeli's. It means those who choose to stay become Palestinians. Somewhere it got morphed into "No Jews". At least I'm assuming this is the statement? It's the one that has been most brought up.

Israel is trying to be reasonable. It had a family reunification program for decades. At one point it was even willing to take back those arabs that had left, not the whole extended generations as well. It also offered for a time to take in 100,000 over a period of years to gradually integrate them, find housing and or jobs. Several options were put forward and later withdraw when there was no willingness to negotiate or compromise.
So yes I am being careful with the phrasing because Israel has shown they are not acting in a racist manner. Palestinians have proven to be highly racist not allowing jews to remain and become palestinian citizens, and this from Abbas.

Except that is not what Abbas said.

Hamas is not going to be persuaded if Abbas is not willing to try and consider the possibility.
Do you have a better way of determining which side is racist and which one is just being cautious under a dire threat?

Yes. Take an honest look at the treatment of people and see who's racist and who is not. There are a lot of inequities in Israel's system - the way Palestinians are treated in the judicial system and by the police and military for instance (particularly juviniles) and contrast that with how Israeli juviniles are treated. The permit system for expansion. Settlers throw stones at Palestinian children who have to pass in order to go to school. How is it handled? They go under military escort which might or might not show up. How are Palestinian stone throwers threated? Shot or arrested. So...there is racism there. It's not so pristine and clear cut as you would make it. Does that mean the Palestinians are not racist? I think many are as well and a culture based on a policy of complete seperation encourages that on both sides.

Why Does the State Department Endorse Palestinian Fight to Exclude Jews Commentary Magazine

Israel Daily News Stream 0730 2013

Abbas Palestine will be Judenrein - Middle East - News - Arutz Sheva

Abbas No Jews in Palestinian State

Abbas 8217 Palestine No Jews Allowed

Abbas Toughens Law Against Palestinians Selling Land To Jews Matzav.com - The Online Voice of Torah Jewry

Abbas Falsely Claims that Palestinian Authority Doesn t Incite Hatred Against Jews VIDEO Why Israel

 

[aris2chat]

Israel has built towns for the bedouin with infrastructure and social services near by.
Building a new room on an old house with no electric or water, no a permit would not be given. Building new housing with plumbing and proper sewage probably would be. I remember my grandma's home in the mountains, she had exposed wire stung like christmas lights over windows and taped to the ceiling because electric came to the area long after the two room rock dwelling was built. Plumbing was added to a bathroom/kitchen brick outhouse on the balcony. She cooked with charcoal on a small grill not much bigger than a shoe box. She used to pump water till she finally let us install pipes from the village water system. Glass windows were a luxury she did not think she needed but since she began the season early and stayed till well into fall we had to talk her into it.
If she had to get permits and get hooked up to town services it would have made more sense to tear down and rebuild. Eventually she did have to give up the place for modernization to come and new roads to be laid over the piping and sewage.
I can understand Israel not just letting the average person build on or make patchwork improvements with no standards or inspections that we in the west have to pay for and wait for appointments and re-inspections several time over till final approval. Nit pick over how many outlets a room has or how many nail in a wall or the right sheetrock for a bedroom vs a garage wall and the beams 16 and not 18 inches, etc.
Israel wants the people to have safe housing especially in an earthquake prone land. can you see California letting any old construction or improvement without inspections or high standards? Buildings have to be retro fitted with vibration pads and any renovations or refits won't be allowed to even begin if steps for upgrades are no included. You can't even put up a log cabin without filing plans for approval. You can't dig in your own yard without knowing were the pipes and cables are buried and have someone come out and mark and later inspect to make sure you have not damage anything.
No arabs cannot get permits unless the right steps are taken and the right type of improvements are planned.
As for jewish vs arab towns in the WB? There are not just palestinian planners but Israelis as well building modern towns for the palestinians in the WB. It is not just jewish settlements. You just don't hear a lot about what is built for the palestinians because there is no controversy.
No you can't out up a tin shed and call it a dwelling. You can't go from tent to press board with maybe an outhouse. Israel wants buildings to have safe plumbing, electric and such if any construction is to be done. No log cabin next to a luxury apartment building. You have to improve the value of the land and not diminish the value of your neighbor's property.
It does matter what you want and what is expected by the state.
Palestinians permits for building should also connect to services and not be an eyesore or be a health risk to the those who will be on the land or next door.
Permits cost money and palestinians, and some arabs, don't want to pay the fees to file for permits and inspections. They go ahead and build anyway and it later is torn down because the construction was not approved first.
Too often there is a conflict between a wild west homestead mentality and a modern urban building code and proper material requirements.
Saying they can't get permits is vague and often not correct.
Most multi family building in the middle east are rebar, cement and cinder block. If you don't have the right foundation and install the right piping and wiring before the wall go up, you will have the structure torn down. If you don't file proper blueprints you won't get a permit. If you don't have the right material or inspections you will not get final approval. If you don't know the laws or try to bypass them, you will get in trouble.
Just digging in Israel and the PA can be a long and costly hardship. Antiquities have to sign off on everything and anything found in the process. It could be years of delay or the land becomes protected and building denied.
No getting a permit is not an easy process for Israelis or palestinians.

Where did you get that pantload?

Got a link?

New palestinian towns of Rawabi, Talet Nueima and Batir in the WB with another to be planned in the jordan valley. Jdeideh will be a new palestinians town in Israel. Rahat and Tel as-Sabi were built for the bedouin in the negev.
New construction in Jerusalem will be for jews and arabs.

Rahat is a ghetto built to dump the Bedouins when Israel steals their land.

Evicting the Bedouin - Israel/Palestine

Ghettos don't usually win ISOCARP awards

http://www.restorationplanning.com/

What does that have to do with anything?

What bedouin live in horrid conditions and Israel is trying to get them to live in decent modern housing

 

[Phoenall]

Hoss, many are as indiginous to Palestine as the Jews.

Beyond that - does it matter?

They are people and it's all to easy to marginalize them with these sort of arguments.

The question to ask is why is it so important to some how make them less worthy of inclusion by asking these sorts of questions?

No the vast majority are illegal immigrants with less than 150 years occupancy in Palestine, the Jews have a common ancestry to the M.E. as shown by DNA testing of all the worlds Jews. The Jews who never left the land have a very close match to the Jews of Eastern Europe, Iran, Ethiopia, America and the UK. The arab muslims show a varied DNA mix with very little in common wit even people living in the same village. Now this is either inter breeding with close family members or recent migration from outside the area. So how can they be as indigenous a the Jews when less than 10% of their DNA is the same. ( outside of the human genome )

If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem

As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".

The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%

It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.

I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.

The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.

 

[aris2chat]

Hoss, many are as indiginous to Palestine as the Jews.

Beyond that - does it matter?

They are people and it's all to easy to marginalize them with these sort of arguments.

The question to ask is why is it so important to some how make them less worthy of inclusion by asking these sorts of questions?

No the vast majority are illegal immigrants with less than 150 years occupancy in Palestine, the Jews have a common ancestry to the M.E. as shown by DNA testing of all the worlds Jews. The Jews who never left the land have a very close match to the Jews of Eastern Europe, Iran, Ethiopia, America and the UK. The arab muslims show a varied DNA mix with very little in common wit even people living in the same village. Now this is either inter breeding with close family members or recent migration from outside the area. So how can they be as indigenous a the Jews when less than 10% of their DNA is the same. ( outside of the human genome )

If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem

As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".

The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%

It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.

I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.

The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.

Search for Autosomal DNA Y-DNA and mtDNA - DNA Ancestry Project

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