And the Palestinians have their state despite their terrorist activities against the British, Jews, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Germany and the USA. So why aren't they held accountable now for their aggression and terrorism. They have nothing to lose as they have put nothing into their state since 1988. The UN should give them a deadline to prove their ability to govern themselves or withdraw their membership of the UN
Who Are The Palestinians?
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And the Palestinians have their state despite their terrorist activities against the British, Jews, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, Germany and the USA. So why aren't they held accountable now for their aggression and terrorism. They have nothing to lose as they have put nothing into their state since 1988. The UN should give them a deadline to prove their ability to govern themselves or withdraw their membership of the UN
I read this and no where is there an actual quote from Abbas about "no Jews". The issue of Jeruselum does however show that the issue is not that clear.
One of the radio shows I listen to on NPR had a piece on Jerusalem and the the issue of property in East Jerusalum. There is a lot of anger towards Jews buying property there as well as the feeling (justified) that there is an intentional government effort to reduce the resident Palestinian population and increase the Jewish population. There is a lack of transparency in the process of buying property and multiple layers of front-groups hiding the identity of the real purchasers so often, a Palestinian seller is led to think he is sellling to a Palestinian but in reality, it's a front for a Jewish developer. The dark side of this, of course is the Palestinian intolerance to Jews moving into that area and if a Palestinian is known to have sold to a Jew, he becomes a target for violence or death threats.
The Israeli government is also complicit in the process. Through use of the zoning process, they allot zones for Jewish purposes but withhold permits for Palestinians. The government also actively subsidizes Jewish projects and there are areas specifically designated for Jews only. They have also used the zoning process to redraw Jerusalem's municipal boundaries in such a way that they enlarge Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and exclude Palestinian areas from Jeruselums boundaries. When you consider the fact that Palestinians residing outside of Jerusalem can lose their Jerusalem residency status if they are gone 7 or more years (but NOT Jewish residents) -it paints a compellling picture of how demographics are being manipulated.
MIDEAST Israel Moves to Judaise East Jerusalem Inter Press Service
According to UN figures, in 2006 at least 1,360 Palestinians had their ID cards revoked. This was five times more than in 2005, and more than in any previous year since Israel began occupying East Jerusalem.
In 2003, the Citizenship and Entry into Israel law was enacted, which denies spouses from the occupied Palestinian territories, who are married to Israeli citizens or permanent residents (Jerusalem ID card holders), the right to acquire citizenship or residency status, and thus the opportunity to live with their partners in Israel and Jerusalem.
As a result, thousands of married couples are forced to live apart from one another.
In Israel, foreign spouses who are Jewish are automatically granted citizenship under Israel's Law of Return.
Furthermore, since 1982 the Israeli Interior Ministry has not permitted the registration of Palestinian children as Jerusalem residents if the child's father does not hold a Jerusalem ID card, even if the mother is a Jerusalem ID cardholder.
In 2003, the Citizenship and Entry into Israel law was enacted, which denies spouses from the occupied Palestinian territories, who are married to Israeli citizens or permanent residents (Jerusalem ID card holders), the right to acquire citizenship or residency status, and thus the opportunity to live with their partners in Israel and Jerusalem.
As a result, thousands of married couples are forced to live apart from one another.
In Israel, foreign spouses who are Jewish are automatically granted citizenship under Israel's Law of Return.
Furthermore, since 1982 the Israeli Interior Ministry has not permitted the registration of Palestinian children as Jerusalem residents if the child's father does not hold a Jerusalem ID card, even if the mother is a Jerusalem ID cardholder.
East Jerusalem - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Until 1995, those who lived abroad for more than seven years or obtained residency or citizenship in another country were deemed liable to lose their residency status. In 1995, Israel began revoking permanent residency status from former Arab residents of Jerusalem who could not prove that their "center of life" was still in Jerusalem. This policy was rescinded four years later. In March 2000, the Minister of the Interior, Natan Sharansky, stated that the "quiet deportation" policy would cease, the prior policy would be restored, and Arab natives to Jerusalem would be able to regain residency[62] if they could prove that they have visited Israel at least once every three years. Since December 1995, permanent residency of more than 3,000 individuals "expired," leaving them with neither citizenship nor residency.[62] Despite changes in policy under Sharansky, in 2006 the number of former Arab Jerusalemites to lose their residency status was 1,363, a sixfold increase on the year before.[63] The loss of status is automatic and sometimes occurs without their knowledge.
Israel also has severely curtailed it's "family reunification" to the point where it's disengenious to use that as an indication that there is no racism. Israeli communities are allowed to reject potential applicants based on ethnic or cultural characteristics thus encourging ever more isolation between the two groups. According to one poll - 42% of Israeli's had never met a Palestinian.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/opinion/rula-jebreal-minority-life-in-israel.html?_r=0
In September, Israel’s Supreme Court dismissed a petition challenging the Admissions Committees Law, which allows communities to reject housing applicants based on “cultural and social suitability” — a legal pretext to deny residency to non-Jews. In practice, even before the law was passed, it was virtually impossible for a Palestinian to buy or rent a home in any majority-Jewish city.
So when you look at this...who is racist? The Palestinians? The Israeli's? Both? Neither?
Each of these - it's the same deliberately contorted quote.
These all say the same thing:
Claim : Abbas: Palestinian state will be judenrein or Jew free.
Then right below it it shows the quote: "In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli -- civilian or soldier -- on our lands".
No Israeli's. In otherwords - they will all be, whatever they are - Palestinian citizens and there will be no foreign military presence or "settlers" who do not take on Palestinian citizenship.
It does NOT say "judenrein" nor does it say "jew free" - that is a dishonest and misleading claim attempting, through the use of the german term - to equate this and Abbas to Hitler and the Nazi's. Very dishonest in my opinion.
In doing so - is this also an attempt to incite hate?
Who is racist?
What state?
Aris, I appreciate and respect that but even some one who is personally involved can have bias - it's only human. As a participant, I am also allowed to share my opinions on it and since I can't lay claim to direct experience (in fact few here can) I try to support my opinions with articles and sources. In what I just said, that you are responding to - I supported my claims with sources that show that the Israeli's too are culpable in creating the situation as it now plays out. I've never said the Palestinians are blameless innocents - but the Israel's have a hand in this too. It's not a rejection of your knowledge or your observations - but a disagreements with some of your conclusions and claims and that too is part of a messageboard discussion.
P F Tinmore
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What bedouin live in horrid conditions and Israel is trying to get them to live in decent modern housing
ISRAEL, Bedouin Ghetto
If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem
As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".
The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%
It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.
I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.
The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.
These articles are not from "team Palestine":
http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports
aris2chat
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What bedouin live in horrid conditions and Israel is trying to get them to live in decent modern housing
ISRAEL, Bedouin Ghetto
Unrecognized villages can't connect to utilities, that is why the Israeli are trying to get the bedouin to live in planned communities. They can have access to building for their crafts and industries. They will have schools. They will have health care. Internet and transportation for their trades. Even stables and farms near by were part of the plan just outside.
Most of the bedouin to be located in the recognized and planned towns are within walking distance from the retched conditions they now live in.
The bedouin were not running their startup businesses out of tent but regularly constructed buildings. Building that were planned to aid the bedouin in maintaining that part of the culture and providing for the women. They were not dying their yarn outdoors over open fires or weaving in tents with no electricity. They had access to printed labels, receipts, advertizing which would not have been available easily otherwise. They would have have been able to form cooperative with other women isolated in dispersed stops of tents over a wide area the way they were living before.
Israel is trying to help the bedouin not leave them on the edge of uncontrolled garbage dumps or without proper facilities. Bedouin can keep the best part of their tradition but they can't live forever in the 7th century. They want Israel to provide services for them but the logistics or reaching each family when they are spread out the way they were was impractical. Even running infrastructure would mean digging straight lines not zigzagging around a tent here and a corrugated steal shed there. Providing clean water instead of trekking water from dirty contaminated well that were dug centuries ago and helping recycling of material rather than contaminated the ground or free burning items with lead, plastics and human feces or attacking dangerous pests that carry disease.
Israel is trying to minimize or eliminating the risk of things like malaria, yellow fever and typhoid and or provide regular vaccinations to the people.
The conditions of slum living is what Israel is trying to change with planned towns.
If it makes you feel better can think of it as Israelis being selfish by helping provide a healthier living condition of the bedouin it will in turn prevent the spread of killer diseases infecting urban "jewish" communities.
Helping the bedouin earn a living wage it takes the stress of social services on the tax payers.
Education and women's rights are advanced and hopefully building closer ties to the rest of the Israelis and make them all feel like a nation instead tribes or separate "arab" being displaced or marginalized by the rest of the population.
aris2chat
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If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem
As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".
The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%
It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.
I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.
The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.
These articles are not from "team Palestine":
http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports
So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?
Israel did not deny the palestinians a right to live in Israel or even to have their own state side by side. Palestinians want the extermination of Israel and jews for the last two hundred years.
Of course palestinians are also related the egyptian, turks, iranians and cretans. Just because they come the same grouping does not mean they are the same as jews. They did not exist as a "people" but now claim to be indigenous while denying the origins of jews.
If you are trying to prove palestinians have origins in the middle east, of course. If you are trying to prove they are jews, no. If your trying to disprove the jews right to their homeland, no.
We are not talking tribes in brazil vs jews or jews vs south arficans. But there is not denying the jews have maintains their identity both culturally and genetically to the jews forced out by the romans or the jews that returned centuries ago or less than a hundred years ago.
The document basically says their share less than a 10% genetic markers, not that they are identical or indistinguishable.
Explain to the palestinians they should recognize Israels right to exist as a jewish state and that jews have as much right, if not more so, to their own state and identity.
The paper does not dispute egyptian or other middle eastern origins for the palestinians. It does not disprove that close to half those given the name of palestinians at the end of the mandate were immigrants from egypt, jordan, syria or elsewhere in the region.
It was an abstract hypotheses for considerations. A thought exercise common in college and in beginning a scientific study.
Palestinians try to claim that jews, be they sephardi, ashkenazi, lembi or bnei menashe, etc. have no history or religious ties to ancient or modern Israel. They deny the right of jews to live in the area Israel, WB or G.
That is not what the paper suggests.
Please explain how muslim palestinians are the only group to have a right to access the temple mount or pray in Jerusalem? Why did palestinians/jordanians destroy so many synagogues in Jerusalem and the WB? Why did they use them as stables and toilets? Why to they throw stones on the jews at the kotel? Why do they riot and set fires on the mount just because a non-muslim visits? Why do they run over infants at train stations? Why do they fire rockets at Jews? Why do they refuse to talk to jews about peace, coexistance or statehood for the palestinian people?
How does the 12 page abstract advance peace in the region for all parties?
aris2chat
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If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem
As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".
The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%
It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.
I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.
The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.
These articles are not from "team Palestine":
http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports
View attachment 33549
So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?
Israel did not deny the palestinians a right to live in Israel or even to have their own state side by side. Palestinians want the extermination of Israel and jews for the last two hundred years.
Of course palestinians are also related the egyptian, turks, iranians and cretans. Just because they come the same grouping does not mean they are the same as jews. They did not exist as a "people" but now claim to be indigenous while denying the origins of jews.
If you are trying to prove palestinians have origins in the middle east, of course. If you are trying to prove they are jews, no. If your trying to disprove the jews right to their homeland, no.
We are not talking tribes in brazil vs jews or jews vs south arficans. But there is not denying the jews have maintains their identity both culturally and genetically to the jews forced out by the romans or the jews that returned centuries ago or less than a hundred years ago.
The document basically says their share less than a 10% genetic markers, not that they are identical or indistinguishable.
Explain to the palestinians they should recognize Israels right to exist as a jewish state and that jews have as much right, if not more so, to their own state and identity.
The paper does not dispute egyptian or other middle eastern origins for the palestinians. It does not disprove that close to half those given the name of palestinians at the end of the mandate were immigrants from egypt, jordan, syria or elsewhere in the region.
It was an abstract hypotheses for considerations. A thought exercise common in college and in beginning a scientific study.
Palestinians try to claim that jews, be they sephardi, ashkenazi, lembi or bnei menashe, etc. have no history or religious ties to ancient or modern Israel. They deny the right of jews to live in the area Israel, WB or G.
That is not what the paper suggests.
Please explain how muslim palestinians are the only group to have a right to access the temple mount or pray in Jerusalem? Why did palestinians/jordanians destroy so many synagogues in Jerusalem and the WB? Why did they use them as stables and toilets? Why to they throw stones on the jews at the kotel? Why do they riot and set fires on the mount just because a non-muslim visits? Why do they run over infants at train stations? Why do they fire rockets at Jews? Why do they refuse to talk to jews about peace, coexistance or statehood for the palestinian people?
How does the 12 page abstract advance peace in the region for all parties?
You want to compare modern jews and palestinians to neanderthal or the genetic "adam" as well for similar markers? Why not to apes or back to the first mammals going more than 4 million years? You think our DNA is not going to show more than 90% similarities? So why would it be surprising that human share certain markers?
The trace of particular marker unique to a single branch of judaism and not to other arabs not markers the have in common.
Scientists Reconstruct 45 000-Year-Old Human Genome History in the Headlines
Y-Chromosomal Adam Lived 208 300 Years Ago Says New Study Genetics Sci-News.com
NOVA The DNA of Human Evolution
Jews Are a Race Genes Reveal Forward.com
I'm not a geneticist but my daughter is a nurse and I've know enough doctors and other medical experts to not get totally cross eyed over certain scientific articals. Yes, even palestinians and other arabs are more like pigs, apes and even dogs than different from them.
Explain to palestinians why they do not have a right to kill or object to jews or a jewish state side by side a potential palestinian state. Convince them that violence is not the answer and that they are the racists to think the middle east (or the world) should be jew-free.
You can argue religion, history or science, they all work to show the bond of jews to the the region.
Demographics also negate the idea that palestinians were displaced or that land was stole from them. Even recent changes to the PA laws prove that land was sold to jews and is still being sold, other wise why the legislation against such sales? No comparable laws in Israel that private land for sale can only be bought by a jew. Even the knesset land is not owned by Israel or even a jew. It is leased to the government.
Granted Israel is hardly at the head of the list for sainthood but they are far from the demons that so much of the palestinian propaganda claims. Racist? Apartheid? Violent? Hateful? Liars? The edge goes to palestinians on all counts. Change the threat to Israel and the jews if you want things to get better for the palestinians. Protest the leadership that perpetuates the rhetoric. Take the weapons from groups like hamas. Condemn at the top of your voice the riots and killings of Israelis. Champagne to the rest of the arab and muslim world to normalize relations with Israel and stop supporting the weapons smuggling and hate from gaza and even the PA. Encourage free discourse of Islam past and present. Improve the right of the rest of the MENA especially toward the female half of the population. Stress the teachings of peace and brotherhood towards others of the "book" and end the recruiting of groups from hezbullah to ISIS as islamic or serving allah in some way.
Forbid the preaching such as "first the saturday then the sunday people", "first jerusalem then rome" as unislamic.
Seek solutions instead of just pointing out the problems.
Bring constructive ideas to the table. Encourage discourse not conflict on forums like this and all the way to heads of state.
In the end, the sillyness of the argument is this: Palestinians and Jews have more in common (excluding the genes we share with other species) than different. So what is the big deal? They are brothers and they fight like brothers. They are religious brothers. They are genetic brothers. Genetics can only tell us so much and one thing they do tell us is we came out of Africa. To try to use it to claim a "right" is false. Yes, Jews are tied to the land. So are Palestinians. They need to learn to deal with it and they need to sit down and negotiate in good faith. No one has truly done that. You point out the failings of the Palestinians and I agree - but Israel needs to stop it's "ethnic cleansing" and settlement building in the occupied territories, take a hard look at it's system in regards to the treatment of Palestinian juviniles, it's system for approving permits and new settlements and other issues of equality. Israel has it's own teaching of "hate" to combat, and to Israel's credit - it is trying to and taking this seriously but right now their policies have created two completely seperated societies in which many of it's members have never met the other. Is this a good thing? If you've never met a Jew - how easy it is to believe the propaganda and demonize. If you've never met a Palestinian - same. Condemn the settlements. Condemn the system of residency permits. Condemn the lack of progress in family unification. Equality can not simply exist on paper and through a few token representatives.
I fully agree with you on what the Palestinians and few seem to speak out on what Israel needs to do.
For the same reason Jews are calling Palestinians "squatters" and refusing to acknowledge their right to live in Israel. You've seen this over and over in these threads. The majority of the Palestinians are foreign invaders from other countries or the majority of Jews are foreign invaders from Europe. In the end -it's the same thing. They are a mixture of immigrants and descendents of the indiginous populations that have lived there forever.
That is not entirely true.
There was a concerted campaign to encourage Palestinians to flee and thought the "official" narrative claims it was the Arabs and the Palestinian leaders who did this, Israeli archival documents show that was not the entire truth. There was an active and successful campaign from the Israeli's including their militias, to drive Palestinians out and prevent their return very few have been allowed to return. There is an active campaign of quietly cleansing areas of Palestinians through a system of zoning, land use permits, residency laws, etc.
Also - the two-state solution. Palestinian support for this has gone up and down in polls depending on the details and state of conflict and currently is at a dismal low with 60% wanting one state of Palestine. That doesn't mean, however, an "extermination of Jews" and phrasing it that way smacks of propaganda going back to the deliberate distortion of Abass' quote. It would mean, however, an end of Israel as a Jewish majority state. There have been arguments on whether or not the solution is one or two states and whether Israel is established well enough in culture and law to withstand the demographic shifts of "one state" or whether two states is the only answer. Personally, I don't think one state can be done. The levels of distrust, hate, enforced separation and propoganda is so high they can not live together in one unified state without violence/
On the Israeli side....higher levels of support but by no means unanimous and - the devil is in the details: Turns out most Israelis support the establishment of a Palestinian state – until they read the fine print.
A survey of Palestinians from June by the right-leaning Washington Institute for Near East Policy found that more than twice as many respondents now support “reclaiming all of historic Palestine,” than those who choose “end the occupation and reach a two state solution.” In response to +972’s query, the Institute says this is a new finding compared to similar (but not identical) questions asked in the past, when support for a two state-solution typically ranged between 40-55 percent. Here is the data (n= 1200 Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza, margin of error, +/-3%):
“Please state your view about the main Palestinian goal for the next five years”
- The goal should be to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea: 60%
- The goal should be to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two state solution: 27%
- The goal should be to work for a one state solution in all of the land, in which Arabs and Jews will have equal rights in one country, from the river to the sea: 10%
Two further questions on this topic yielded similar data: one asked how people would perceive a negotiated two-state solution (accept that as end of the conflict, or continue seeking to liberate all of historic Palestine) and what people believe the leadership’s actual goal in such a case would be (to end the conflict, or liberate historic Palestine in phases). Again, roughly twice as many chose the “all of Palestine” option.
I usually advise against trusting a single survey for an unusual finding. The key is to see if other surveys show similar trends. They do. A Pew Research poll from April and May 2014 (with a sizable sample of 1000 each – Palestinians and Israelis) provides similar insight.
In this comparative poll, when asked “Do you think a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to co-exist peacefully or not?”
- 63 percent of Palestinians said “no.”
- Israelis were split in half (45% “no” to 40% “yes”)
- Jordanians, who have greatest interest in seeing such an arrangement, expressed skepticism: 39 percent said “no,” 29 percent said “it depends” and 26 percent said “yes”- making Jordan among the most optimistic of the seven nations tested.
There is a certain irony here: According to the survey, Palestinians may retain a maximalist dream, but Israel is the one that is actually physically expanding its sovereignty over the territory under question.
At first glance, a recent Haaretz poll showed different results. Sixty percent of Israelis said they support an agreement with the establishment of a Palestinian state (from a representative sample of 500 – which means that probably fewer than 100 Arabs were polled – and error of +/-4.4%).
“If the Prime Minister reached an agreement in the framework of which a Palestinian state would be established alongside Israel would you support or not support the agreement?”
- Support: 60%
- Do not support: 32% (Haaretz’s article uses this wording, rather than “oppose”)
Nir Hasson of Haaretz writes that compared to similar (not identical) polls in December 2012 (just weeks after the last Gaza war), the current data represents a drop from around two-thirds support then.
However when simple details are given about the two-state agreement, support crumbles. The basic outline in the subsequent question mirrors the Camp David talks from 14 years ago, and many doubt whether this formula is even applicable anymore.
“Consider that in the framework of an agreement, most settlers are annexed to Israel [sic – ds], Jerusalem will be divided, refugees won’t return to Israel and there will be a strict security arrangement, would you support this agreement?”
- Yes: 35%
- No: 58%
As a pollster, the contrast between the idea of a two-state agreement and the lack of support for the detailed version is dramatic enough to warrant methodological suspicion. When my polls show results like that, I automatically check for technical errors or glitches in data processing.
But supporting data from other polls and questions usually signal that there is no technical error, only the contradictions of human nature. Notably, there is little contradiction given findings from two polls nearly one year ago that are remarkably similar, which I wrote about then: when the Prime Minister presents a general agreement, 55 percent supported it; when the details are given (without mentioning the Prime Minister), precisely the same portion accept or reject it (38% to 56%) as this year.
Further, in the current poll, when asked if people would prefer to evacuate settlements for a peace agreement, or give up on an agreement to preserve settlements, Israelis are evenly split (45% to 43% respectively – a statistical tie). The 43 percent who resist dismantling any settlements, since the question didn’t specify, are probably mostly right-wing. It’s not hard to imagine another 15 percent drawn from the center or even self-described left who are in no mood for this arrangement at present.
There are other ominous findings: the majority of Israelis supports unequal rights for Palestinians:
“If Israel were to annex territories, do you think it should give Palestinians living there full rights, including the right to vote in Knesset, or partial rights, without Knesset vote?
- Full: 31%
- Partial: 56%
So when shown the details, the majority of Israelis are opposed to a two-state agreement and support denying civil rights to Palestinians. This finding may be mitigated by the fact that 62 percent do not support Naftali Bennett’s plan of annexing Area C. But that itself is mitigated by the fact that Israel is already doing so.
“Please state your view about the main Palestinian goal for the next five years”
- The goal should be to work toward reclaiming all of historic Palestine from the river to the sea: 60%
- The goal should be to end the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and achieve a two state solution: 27%
- The goal should be to work for a one state solution in all of the land, in which Arabs and Jews will have equal rights in one country, from the river to the sea: 10%
Two further questions on this topic yielded similar data: one asked how people would perceive a negotiated two-state solution (accept that as end of the conflict, or continue seeking to liberate all of historic Palestine) and what people believe the leadership’s actual goal in such a case would be (to end the conflict, or liberate historic Palestine in phases). Again, roughly twice as many chose the “all of Palestine” option.
I usually advise against trusting a single survey for an unusual finding. The key is to see if other surveys show similar trends. They do. A Pew Research poll from April and May 2014 (with a sizable sample of 1000 each – Palestinians and Israelis) provides similar insight.
In this comparative poll, when asked “Do you think a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to co-exist peacefully or not?”
- 63 percent of Palestinians said “no.”
- Israelis were split in half (45% “no” to 40% “yes”)
- Jordanians, who have greatest interest in seeing such an arrangement, expressed skepticism: 39 percent said “no,” 29 percent said “it depends” and 26 percent said “yes”- making Jordan among the most optimistic of the seven nations tested.
There is a certain irony here: According to the survey, Palestinians may retain a maximalist dream, but Israel is the one that is actually physically expanding its sovereignty over the territory under question.
At first glance, a recent Haaretz poll showed different results. Sixty percent of Israelis said they support an agreement with the establishment of a Palestinian state (from a representative sample of 500 – which means that probably fewer than 100 Arabs were polled – and error of +/-4.4%).
“If the Prime Minister reached an agreement in the framework of which a Palestinian state would be established alongside Israel would you support or not support the agreement?”
- Support: 60%
- Do not support: 32% (Haaretz’s article uses this wording, rather than “oppose”)
Nir Hasson of Haaretz writes that compared to similar (not identical) polls in December 2012 (just weeks after the last Gaza war), the current data represents a drop from around two-thirds support then.
However when simple details are given about the two-state agreement, support crumbles. The basic outline in the subsequent question mirrors the Camp David talks from 14 years ago, and many doubt whether this formula is even applicable anymore.
“Consider that in the framework of an agreement, most settlers are annexed to Israel [sic – ds], Jerusalem will be divided, refugees won’t return to Israel and there will be a strict security arrangement, would you support this agreement?”
- Yes: 35%
- No: 58%
As a pollster, the contrast between the idea of a two-state agreement and the lack of support for the detailed version is dramatic enough to warrant methodological suspicion. When my polls show results like that, I automatically check for technical errors or glitches in data processing.
But supporting data from other polls and questions usually signal that there is no technical error, only the contradictions of human nature. Notably, there is little contradiction given findings from two polls nearly one year ago that are remarkably similar, which I wrote about then: when the Prime Minister presents a general agreement, 55 percent supported it; when the details are given (without mentioning the Prime Minister), precisely the same portion accept or reject it (38% to 56%) as this year.
Further, in the current poll, when asked if people would prefer to evacuate settlements for a peace agreement, or give up on an agreement to preserve settlements, Israelis are evenly split (45% to 43% respectively – a statistical tie). The 43 percent who resist dismantling any settlements, since the question didn’t specify, are probably mostly right-wing. It’s not hard to imagine another 15 percent drawn from the center or even self-described left who are in no mood for this arrangement at present.
There are other ominous findings: the majority of Israelis supports unequal rights for Palestinians:
“If Israel were to annex territories, do you think it should give Palestinians living there full rights, including the right to vote in Knesset, or partial rights, without Knesset vote?
- Full: 31%
- Partial: 56%
So when shown the details, the majority of Israelis are opposed to a two-state agreement and support denying civil rights to Palestinians. This finding may be mitigated by the fact that 62 percent do not support Naftali Bennett’s plan of annexing Area C. But that itself is mitigated by the fact that Israel is already doing so.
They share a bit more: Epiphenom The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians
Let me add - I am NOT trying to "disprove Jews of a right to their homeland" - my argument is that both the Palestinians and the Jews represent groups of people who are both the remnants of ancient and indiginous peoples and an influx of relatively newer peoples. Some Jewish groups for instance share far more genetic markers with Europeans than with other Jews who in turn share many of the same markers with indiginous non-Jews. This indicates a considerable amount of "conversions" and non-Jewish marriages during their wanderings. Attempting to use genetics as a means of determining rights is a method that has only one agenda behind it: the marginalization of the rights of which ever group can't claim the right genetics. When you are talking about a people that lived in the region thousands of years ago and who since then spread across the world, it becomes even more glaringly obvious that as a means of establishing rights it's full of holes. You have to look at the people who are there now, and who have been living there in relatively recent times - not thousands of years ago. You can't say one or the other has fewer rights or more rights based on genetics.
And how many Jews immigrated from elsewhere?
And that is not what I suggest either. I don't deny the right of Jews to live in any of those areas. I also don't deny the right of Palestinians to live in those areas. I never have. Pointing out that both groups have legitimacy is not denying either one their rights. The Pro-Israeli's make the argument that the Palestinians are squatters. The Pro-Palestinians make the argument that the Jews are foreign invaders. Neither statement is accurate. It doesn't matter if your "ties" are to a land some of your ancestors inhabited thousands of years ago or if your ties are to a land your family has been inhabiting for centuries - you can't discount cultural and familial ties to land.
Why do I need to explain it? I don't support it.
Why do settlers throw rocks at Palestinian children going to school bad enough that they need a military escort yet the settler kids don't get arrested for rock throwing?
I mean if you are going in that direction do you support it on the Israeli side since the other side is worse?
- Thread starter
- #474
The settlerments would not have even developed at all had the Arab nations not united to annihilate Israel. And please tell us more about Israel's "ethnic cleansing" you refer to.
That's kind of like saying it's ok to beat up Billy Bob because he swung at me last week. Two wrongs don't make a right. I already talked about on part of "ethnic cleansing" earlier in this thread regarding policies in Jerusalem for example. I'm not going to go and repeat it all again.
aris2chat
Gold Member
- Feb 17, 2012
- 18,678
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It was not how many were repatriated but rather how few applied.
At Lausanne Israel offered 100,000 of the refugees to return. Family reunification was one way of bringing palestinians back. By 1950 35,000 have returned through the program, then it varied from year to year but was around 2000 a year till 2002. 90,000 found a way to returned on their own before 1954.
Part of the repatriating 100,000 refugees was contingent on the arab states absorbing the rest. Israel also was taking on 800,000 jewish refugee from around the MENA that had been forced out.
It was not just about space but the logistics of housing, jobs, resources and providing services for so many in the first few years of statehood.
Even till 2000 the idea of 12-20% of the palestinian refugees returning was still part of the equation.
There were scholarship programs for students and their parents. Medical necessity that brought palestinians into Israel and often arranged for them to stay. After '67 10's of thousand palestinians were given jobs both in the WB & G but also in the Israel.
'98-06 more than 20,000 application for citizenship with close to 80% approval. These are all PLO SMC figures issued within the last 10 yrs. UN figures for reunification applications over a 25 yr period was 88,000
Applications still had to go through back ground check for links to terrorism or criminal arrests.
Reunification with family that never left was only a part of what was happening.
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
- 86,389
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If you are going to use DNA (and those studies are by no means definitive in that many Palestinians share the same markers) - then you need to send everyone - Jews and Palestinians - to Africa. After all, that is their genetic homeland. hmmm...maybe that will solve the problem
As far as "vast majority" - that too has been debunked as population records show some Arab migration (just as there was Jewish migration) but are not accurate enough to support the claim of "vast majority".
The DNA testing done shows that 50% of the DNA of every living thing is identical, it also shows that all primates share a common 80%-85% DNA. That is what most pro Palestinians point when they make their claims of inter breeding between Jews and muslims. It is onlyy when you look at the 15% left that you see the genetic markers that single out individual races, areas, cities, towns and villages.
Now you are being very silly as you know that was in the depths of pre history.
You forget the forced migration from muslim lands put the European jews in the minority, the demographics of the arab muslims show that they could not have increased their population by such a large amount without there being immigration in very large numbers. They did not have the medical advances to better an infant survival rate of 10%
It's not "pro-Palis" or "pro-Israeli's" making these determinations. It's scientists who's profession is genetics. They aren't drawing their conclusions based upon the large amount of genetic matter that is common to most humans, they are looking at markers that are uniquely shared within certain groups - in otherwords, that 15%.
I'm not being silly - I'm asking you to support your claim.
The scientists and geneticists produce the results, then the various people use the results to further their own POV. In the case of team Palestine this is to discount the 15% of DNA that can place a person heritage and concentrate on the 85% that is common across all races, nationalities and genetic groups including primates. It is only when that 15% is brought into the equation that we see the gulf between arab muslims and Jews. Just as it also shows that the European Jews, African Jews and American Jews are very closely linked. But team palestine repeatedly use just the 85% of common DNA as their basis for showing that Jews and arabs are the same, they may as well say that Jews and Inuit are the same or that arabs and monkees are the same.
These articles are not from "team Palestine":
http://www.rense.com/general48/palestinians.pdf
Many surprised by genetic and cultural links between Palestinians and Jews God Reports
View attachment 33549
So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?
Israel did not deny the palestinians a right to live in Israel or even to have their own state side by side. Palestinians want the extermination of Israel and jews for the last two hundred years.
Of course palestinians are also related the egyptian, turks, iranians and cretans. Just because they come the same grouping does not mean they are the same as jews. They did not exist as a "people" but now claim to be indigenous while denying the origins of jews.
If you are trying to prove palestinians have origins in the middle east, of course. If you are trying to prove they are jews, no. If your trying to disprove the jews right to their homeland, no.
We are not talking tribes in brazil vs jews or jews vs south arficans. But there is not denying the jews have maintains their identity both culturally and genetically to the jews forced out by the romans or the jews that returned centuries ago or less than a hundred years ago.
The document basically says their share less than a 10% genetic markers, not that they are identical or indistinguishable.
Explain to the palestinians they should recognize Israels right to exist as a jewish state and that jews have as much right, if not more so, to their own state and identity.
The paper does not dispute egyptian or other middle eastern origins for the palestinians. It does not disprove that close to half those given the name of palestinians at the end of the mandate were immigrants from egypt, jordan, syria or elsewhere in the region.
It was an abstract hypotheses for considerations. A thought exercise common in college and in beginning a scientific study.
Palestinians try to claim that jews, be they sephardi, ashkenazi, lembi or bnei menashe, etc. have no history or religious ties to ancient or modern Israel. They deny the right of jews to live in the area Israel, WB or G.
That is not what the paper suggests.
Please explain how muslim palestinians are the only group to have a right to access the temple mount or pray in Jerusalem? Why did palestinians/jordanians destroy so many synagogues in Jerusalem and the WB? Why did they use them as stables and toilets? Why to they throw stones on the jews at the kotel? Why do they riot and set fires on the mount just because a non-muslim visits? Why do they run over infants at train stations? Why do they fire rockets at Jews? Why do they refuse to talk to jews about peace, coexistance or statehood for the palestinian people?
How does the 12 page abstract advance peace in the region for all parties?
"So why are the palestinians calling jews foreign invaders and refusing to acknowledge the jews right to living in Israel?
There is no such things as "the Jews." There were native Jews and foreign Jews.
Hossfly
ZIONIST
There you go again, Tinmore. Arguing with the teacher.
- Thread starter
- #479
YEP! The native Jews were the indigenous Palestinians.
Along with other non Jews.
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