Who Are The Palestinians?

[MJB12741]

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

Try buying an airline ticket to Paestine & see what country you land in.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Palestinians did not have the right to negotiate anything until the PLO became the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in any Palestinian territory that is liberated. (Seventh Arab League Summit Conference --- Resolution on Palestine --- Rabat, Morocco 28 October 1974)

When did they get the right to negotiate borders?

(COMMENT)

In accordance with Article 77(1a) (1945), the trusteeship system shall apply to such territories now held under mandate; . All functions of the United Nations relating to strategic areas, including the approval of the terms of the trusteeship agreements and of their alteration or amendment, shall be exercised by the Security Council IAW Article 88(1). This set the conditions under which The Security Council later wrote S/RES/242 (1967). The UNSC acted in the capacity of Trustee in the absence of a recognized Arab Palestinian voice. Under Treaty Law (Vienna Convention), the Palestinians had no Article 1 competent authority to represent the Palestinians negotiating; nor did the Arab Palestinian have the prerequisite status as a "state" under Articles 6 and 7 with the Capacity of States to conclude treaties. That did not happen until the UN Acknowledged the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988.

IAW PART I --- Future constitution and government of Palestine --- Section B --- Steps Prepartory to Independence --- UN General Assembly Resolution 181(II) --- the UN Palestine Commission to progressively receive full responsibility for the administration of the Mandate in the period between the termination of the Mandate and the establishment of the State's independence. This was announced in the UK MEMORANDUM NAMES COMMISSION AS SUCCESSOR GOVERNMENT and the Resolution.

In 1947, the UN, as the parent authority of the International Trustee System, passed Resolution 181(II). The UN Palestine Commission was to establish the frontiers of the Arab and Jewish States and the City of Jerusalem in accordance with the general lines of the recommendations of the General Assembly on the partition of Palestine. Nevertheless, the boundaries as described in Part II (Boundaries) of this plan are to be modified in such a way that village areas as a rule will not be divided by state boundaries unless pressing reasons make that necessary. "The text of this resolution was communicated by the Secretary-General on 9 January to the Government of the United Kingdom, as the Mandatory Power, to the Arab Higher Committee, and to the Jewish Agency for Palestine. The invitation extended by the resolution was promptly accepted by the Government of the United Kingdom and by the Jewish Agency for Palestine, both of which designated representatives to assist the commission. The representative designated by the Government of the United Kingdom was Sir Alexander Cadogan. The representative designated by the Jewish Agency for Palestine was Mr. Moshe Shertok. As regards the Arab Higher Committee, the following telegraphic response was received by the Secretary-General on 19 January:

• • 
    “ARAB HIGHER COMMITTEE IS DETERMINED PERSIST IN REJECTION PARTITION AND IN REFUSAL RECOGNIZE UNO RESOLUTION THIS RESPECT AND ANYTHING DERIVING THEREFROM. FOR THESE REASONS IT IS UNABLE ACCEPT INVITATION”
    • 
      
  No further communication has been addressed to or received from the Arab Higher Committee by the Commission. The Commission will, at the appropriate time, set forth in a separate document its views with regard to the implementations of this refusal by the Arab Higher Committee."

Thus, there was very little cooperation on the part of the Arab Palestinians in the Implementation Process. At 4:06 P.M. on 17 May 1948 (PAL/169), the UN made an "Official Public Announcement," which said in part: "The Commission has not been dissolved. In fact the resolution of last November 29 has been implemented."

On May 15, 1948 --- a combined invasion by Egypt, Jordan and Syria, together with expeditionary forces from Iraq, crossed their respective borders and engaged Israeli forces. This opens the external interference by the Arab Legion to disrupt and defy (openly resist or refuse to abide by) the approved resolution and oppose the Jewish right of self-determination. In 1949, the waring parties entered into to a series of Armistice Arrangements that remained until 1967.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

And once again you LIE as the nationality law placed the onus on the mandate power to provide the Palestinians with an identity. That is why the passports are all BRITISH. You can try and cloud the issue as many times as you want the fact remains that Palestine did not become a nation until 1988.

Unless you can produce the leader of Palestine, its capital city, its currency, its GDP, its religion and finally its legal standing on the world stage ?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

That is not what it means at all.

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

(REMEMBER)

Press Release PAL/138 27 February 1948

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

That is not what it means at all.

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

(REMEMBER)

Press Release PAL/138 27 February 1948

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.

Most Respectfully,
R

Perhaps you could answer these older questions before we proceed. That would add relevance to the current discussion.

At what time did the Palestinians obtain these rights?

Under what circumstances were these rights obtained?

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

That is not what it means at all.

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

(REMEMBER)

Press Release PAL/138 27 February 1948

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.

Most Respectfully,
R

Perhaps you could answer these older questions before we proceed. That would add relevance to the current discussion.

At what time did the Palestinians obtain these rights?

Under what circumstances were these rights obtained?

1988 when they declared independence

Under UN resolution 181 which they finally accepted.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore,

The recognition of these right came gradually over time. There is no one specific date in which all of these rights became "obtained." It came over a period between 1919 and 1916; as previously stated in Posting #2467.

Perhaps you could answer these older questions before we proceed. That would add relevance to the current discussion.

At what time did the Palestinians obtain these rights?

Under what circumstances were these rights obtained?

(COMMENT)

You asked about four (4) discrete rights:

• self determination
• without external interference.
• independence and sovereignty
• territorial integrity

Relative to "without external interference:"

Came in 1919 with the concept on the Covenant that there is a difference between domestic disputes and international disputes; in which the international community should remain silent on disputes having domestic jurisdiction. Domestic jurisdiction is predicated on territorial integrity. Thus, doesn't apply to the State of Palestine until 1988. (See "territorial integrity" below and the ICJ note.​

Relative to "self-determination:"

Came with the 1945 and becomes internationally binding with the Charter; in a faceted concept: (Reenforced in 1974 as an inalienable right.)

• Right to choose freely its political, economic, social, and cultural systems.
• Right of a people to constitute itself in a state or otherwise freely determine the form of its association with an existing state.

Relative to "independence and sovereignty."

Came in 1974 when "self-determination" --- "without external interference" --- and "national independence and sovereignty" are linked together. Again not yet applicable to the State of Palestine until 1988.​

Relative to "territorial integrity:"

Comes in 1988: “The principle of territorial integrity is an important part of the international legal order and is enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, in particular in Article 2, paragraph 4”[1] (the prohibition of the use of force), as well as in other important texts, including those on self-determination. The concept includes the inviolability of the territory of the State, including territory under the effective control and possession of a State. The International Court has held that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States.”

SOURCE: International Court of Justice, Accordance with international law of the unilateral Declaration of Independence of Kosovo, Advisory Opinion, ICJ Reports (2010), para. 80 (page 437)...

While the concept is recognized in the UN Charter, the ICJ says: "Thus, the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States." So, this is not applicable to the Arab Palestinians until they declare independence as "The State of Palestine."​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

Palestine became a sovereign state in 1988..








Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين‎ Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn; Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: פלשתינה Palestina) is a geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. It is sometimes considered to include adjoining territories. The name was used by Ancient Greek writers, and was later used for the Roman province Syria Palaestina, the Byzantine Palaestina Prima and the Umayyad and Abbasid province of Jund Filastin. The region is also known as the Land of Israel (Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el), the Holy Land or Promised Land, and historically has been known as the Southern portion of wider regional designations such as the Levant, Canaan, Syria and as-Sham

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore,

The recognition of these right came gradually over time. There is no one specific date in which all of these rights became "obtained." It came over a period between 1919 and 1916; as previously stated in Posting #2467.

Perhaps you could answer these older questions before we proceed. That would add relevance to the current discussion.

At what time did the Palestinians obtain these rights?

Under what circumstances were these rights obtained?

(COMMENT)

You asked about four (4) discrete rights:

• self determination
• without external interference.
• independence and sovereignty
• territorial integrity

Relative to "without external interference:"

Came in 1919 with the concept on the Covenant that there is a difference between domestic disputes and international disputes; in which the international community should remain silent on disputes having domestic jurisdiction. Domestic jurisdiction is predicated on territorial integrity. Thus, doesn't apply to the State of Palestine until 1988. (See "territorial integrity" below and the ICJ note.​

Relative to "self-determination:"

Came with the 1945 and becomes internationally binding with the Charter; in a faceted concept: (Reenforced in 1974 as an inalienable right.)

• Right to choose freely its political, economic, social, and cultural systems.
• Right of a people to constitute itself in a state or otherwise freely determine the form of its association with an existing state.

Relative to "independence and sovereignty."

Came in 1974 when "self-determination" --- "without external interference" --- and "national independence and sovereignty" are linked together. Again not yet applicable to the State of Palestine until 1988.​

Relative to "territorial integrity:"

Comes in 1988: “The principle of territorial integrity is an important part of the international legal order and is enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, in particular in Article 2, paragraph 4”[1] (the prohibition of the use of force), as well as in other important texts, including those on self-determination. The concept includes the inviolability of the territory of the State, including territory under the effective control and possession of a State. The International Court has held that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States.”

SOURCE: International Court of Justice, Accordance with international law of the unilateral Declaration of Independence of Kosovo, Advisory Opinion, ICJ Reports (2010), para. 80 (page 437)...

While the concept is recognized in the UN Charter, the ICJ says: "Thus, the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States." So, this is not applicable to the Arab Palestinians until they declare independence as "The State of Palestine."​

Most Respectfully,
R

Your post conflicts with UN resolutions.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

In what way?

Your post conflicts with UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

HOW?

v/r
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

That is not what it means at all.

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

(REMEMBER)

Press Release PAL/138 27 February 1948

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.

Most Respectfully,
R

Perhaps you could answer these older questions before we proceed. That would add relevance to the current discussion.

At what time did the Palestinians obtain these rights?

Under what circumstances were these rights obtained?

P F Tinmore, et al,

In what way?

Your post conflicts with UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

HOW?

v/r
R

You are connecting rights to 1988 when that is past the time stated in UN resolutions.

 

[MJB12741]

P F Tinmore, et al,

That is not what it means at all.

There is no Palestine. It was a geographical region not a country.

Who told you that? Israel?

The mandate, in Article 7, obliged the Mandatory to enact a nationality law, which again showed that the Palestinians formed a nation, and that Palestine was a State, though provisionally under guardianship. It was, moreover, unnecessary to labour the point; there was no doubt whatever that Palestine was a separate political entity. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - League of Nations 32nd session - Minutes of the Permanent Mandates Commission 18 August 1937 ​

(REMEMBER)

Press Release PAL/138 27 February 1948

"Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Palestine is a territory administered under mandate by His Majesty (in respect of the United Kingdom), who is entirely responsible both for its internal administration and for its foreign affairs.

"After the 15th May, 1948, Palestine will continue to be a legal entity but it will still not be a sovereign state because it will not be immediately self-governing. The authority responsible for its administration will, however, have changed.

"Where the sovereignty of Palestine lies at the present time is a disputed and perhaps academic legal question about which writers have expressed a number of different conclusions. Where the sovereignty of Palestine will lie after the 15th May, 1948, is perhaps also a question on which different views will be held, but so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, it is a question which it is unnecessary to answer in connection with any practical issues.

Most Respectfully,
R

Perhaps you could answer these older questions before we proceed. That would add relevance to the current discussion.

At what time did the Palestinians obtain these rights?

Under what circumstances were these rights obtained?

P F Tinmore, et al,

In what way?

Your post conflicts with UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

HOW?

v/r
R

You are connecting rights to 1988 when that is past the time stated in UN resolutions.

The Palestinians deserve & need a state of their own with self determination far away from Israel's brutal treatment of peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions. A place where they no longer have to suck off of Israel to provide for them. Do you think maybe Mecca would be a nice place for a Palestinian State?

 

[Hossfly]

P F Tinmore,

The recognition of these right came gradually over time. There is no one specific date in which all of these rights became "obtained." It came over a period between 1919 and 1916; as previously stated in Posting #2467.

Perhaps you could answer these older questions before we proceed. That would add relevance to the current discussion.

At what time did the Palestinians obtain these rights?

Under what circumstances were these rights obtained?

(COMMENT)

You asked about four (4) discrete rights:

• self determination
• without external interference.
• independence and sovereignty
• territorial integrity

Relative to "without external interference:"

Came in 1919 with the concept on the Covenant that there is a difference between domestic disputes and international disputes; in which the international community should remain silent on disputes having domestic jurisdiction. Domestic jurisdiction is predicated on territorial integrity. Thus, doesn't apply to the State of Palestine until 1988. (See "territorial integrity" below and the ICJ note.​

Relative to "self-determination:"

Came with the 1945 and becomes internationally binding with the Charter; in a faceted concept: (Reenforced in 1974 as an inalienable right.)

• Right to choose freely its political, economic, social, and cultural systems.
• Right of a people to constitute itself in a state or otherwise freely determine the form of its association with an existing state.

Relative to "independence and sovereignty."

Came in 1974 when "self-determination" --- "without external interference" --- and "national independence and sovereignty" are linked together. Again not yet applicable to the State of Palestine until 1988.​

Relative to "territorial integrity:"

Comes in 1988: “The principle of territorial integrity is an important part of the international legal order and is enshrined in the Charter of the United Nations, in particular in Article 2, paragraph 4”[1] (the prohibition of the use of force), as well as in other important texts, including those on self-determination. The concept includes the inviolability of the territory of the State, including territory under the effective control and possession of a State. The International Court has held that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States.”

SOURCE: International Court of Justice, Accordance with international law of the unilateral Declaration of Independence of Kosovo, Advisory Opinion, ICJ Reports (2010), para. 80 (page 437)...

While the concept is recognized in the UN Charter, the ICJ says: "Thus, the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States." So, this is not applicable to the Arab Palestinians until they declare independence as "The State of Palestine."​

Most Respectfully,
R

Your post conflicts with UN resolutions.

Do you realize what you're doing, Tinmore? You're helping Rocco sharpen his wit while your wit is about as dull as a bowling ball. Lay on, MacDuff.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, good observation.

You are connecting rights to 1988 when that is past the time stated in UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

There are a couple reasons for that.

1. Prior to 1988, and after 1950, the Palestinian People exercised their right of self-determination:

• On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.

• In General Assembly resolution 2625 (XXV), entitled “Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations”, which reflects customary international law (Military and Paramilitary Activities in and against Nicaragua (Nicaragua v. United States of America), Merits, Judgment, I.C.J. Reports 1986, pp. 101-103, paras. 191-193), the General Assembly reiterated “[t]he principle that States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State”. This resolution then enumerated various obligations incumbent upon States to refrain from violating the territorial integrity of other sovereign States. In the same vein, the Final Act of the Helsinki Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe of 1 August 1975 (the Helsinki Conference) stipulated that “[t]he participating States will respect the territorial integrity of each of the participating States” (Art. IV). Thus, the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States. The Palestinians did not declare independence as a "state" until 1988.

• Prior to 1974, there was no common voice speaking with legal competence and authority for the Palestinian People.

2. The 1996 General Assembly Resolution 50/172. Respect for the principles of national sovereignty and non-interference in the internal affairs of States in their electoral processes --- mention the Palestinians only once:

• Reaffirming also, in this context, the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

It is the 1997 General Assembly Resolution 51/190. Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources... which speaks directly to the Palestinian situation. And it is guided by the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, affirming the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force, and recalling Security Council resolutions, including:

UN Security Council Resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 (sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence)
√ At the time of this Resolution, Israel was the Occupying Power over Jordanian Sovereign territory.
UN Security Council Resolution 446 (1979) of 22 March 1979, (Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention)
√ At the time and still today, the Palestinian Jihadist and Fedayeen argue the validity of the Geneva Convention, as it contains penalties for attacks on the Occupation Power.
√ There is an argument to be made that Israel does not Occupy the Gaza Strip, or Areas "A" and "B" - West Bank, by the definition of Article 42 of the Hague Convention.
UN Security Council Resolutions 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980,
√ Deeply concerned over the practices of the Israeli authorities in implementing that settlement policy in the occupied Arab territories, including Jerusalem,
UN Security Council Resolutions 497 (1981) of 17 December 1981,
√ Decides that the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void.

No representative of the Palestinian People had made a bid, on behalf of the Palestinian People, for Independence and Sovereignty through the right of self-determination without external influence prior to 1988. And only UNSC Resolution 242, speaks to "sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence" issues --- but does not specifically apply them to the Arab Palestinian.

I am not sure which particular Resolution you had in mind when you say: "is past the time stated in UN resolutions." But even UNSC 242 does not specifically grant the Palestinians any special recognition. The Palestinians are not mentioned once.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

MJB12741, et al,

Too funny!

The Palestinians deserve & need a state of their own with self determination far away from Israel's brutal treatment of peace offerings, a security fence & land concessions. A place where they no longer have to suck off of Israel to provide for them. Do you think maybe Mecca would be a nice place for a Palestinian State?

(COMMENT)

I don't think any Arab Nation wants to see an influx of Arab Palestinians. By reputation, they bite the hand of anyone that feeds them. Just ask the Hashemite Kingdom.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, good observation.

You are connecting rights to 1988 when that is past the time stated in UN resolutions.

(COMMENT)

There are a couple reasons for that.

1. Prior to 1988, and after 1950, the Palestinian People exercised their right of self-determination:

• On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. Thirteen days later, Parliament unanimously approved a motion to unite the two banks of the Jordan River, constitutionally expanding the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan in order to safeguard what was left of the Arab territory of Palestine from further Zionist expansion.

• In General Assembly resolution 2625 (XXV), entitled “Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations”, which reflects customary international law (Military and Paramilitary Activities in and against Nicaragua (Nicaragua v. United States of America), Merits, Judgment, I.C.J. Reports 1986, pp. 101-103, paras. 191-193), the General Assembly reiterated “[t]he principle that States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State”. This resolution then enumerated various obligations incumbent upon States to refrain from violating the territorial integrity of other sovereign States. In the same vein, the Final Act of the Helsinki Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe of 1 August 1975 (the Helsinki Conference) stipulated that “[t]he participating States will respect the territorial integrity of each of the participating States” (Art. IV). Thus, the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States. The Palestinians did not declare independence as a "state" until 1988.

• Prior to 1974, there was no common voice speaking with legal competence and authority for the Palestinian People.

2. The 1996 General Assembly Resolution 50/172. Respect for the principles of national sovereignty and non-interference in the internal affairs of States in their electoral processes --- mention the Palestinians only once:

• Reaffirming also, in this context, the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

It is the 1997 General Assembly Resolution 51/190. Permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the occupied Palestinian territory, including Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources... which speaks directly to the Palestinian situation. And it is guided by the principles of the Charter of the United Nations, affirming the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force, and recalling Security Council resolutions, including:

UN Security Council Resolutions 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 (sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence)
√ At the time of this Resolution, Israel was the Occupying Power over Jordanian Sovereign territory.
UN Security Council Resolution 446 (1979) of 22 March 1979, (Israel, as the occupying Power, to abide scrupulously by the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention)
√ At the time and still today, the Palestinian Jihadist and Fedayeen argue the validity of the Geneva Convention, as it contains penalties for attacks on the Occupation Power.
√ There is an argument to be made that Israel does not Occupy the Gaza Strip, or Areas "A" and "B" - West Bank, by the definition of Article 42 of the Hague Convention.
UN Security Council Resolutions 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980,
√ Deeply concerned over the practices of the Israeli authorities in implementing that settlement policy in the occupied Arab territories, including Jerusalem,
UN Security Council Resolutions 497 (1981) of 17 December 1981,
√ Decides that the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void.

No representative of the Palestinian People had made a bid, on behalf of the Palestinian People, for Independence and Sovereignty through the right of self-determination without external influence prior to 1988. And only UNSC Resolution 242, speaks to "sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence" issues --- but does not specifically apply them to the Arab Palestinian.

I am not sure which particular Resolution you had in mind when you say: "is past the time stated in UN resolutions." But even UNSC 242 does not specifically grant the Palestinians any special recognition. The Palestinians are not mentioned once.

Most Respectfully,
R

"No representative of the Palestinian People had made a bid, on behalf of the Palestinian People, for Independence and Sovereignty through the right of self-determination without external influence prior to 1988."

As usual, Rocco, you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are a pathological liar.

[Cmd. 1700.]
PALESTINE.
CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE PALESTINE ARAB
DELEGATION AND THE ZIONIST ORGANISATION.
​

No. 1.
The Palestine Arab Delegation to the Secretary of State for the Colonies.


HOTEL CECIL,
London, W.C.,
February 21st, 1922.
Sir,
We wish to express our thanks to the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies, for his courtesy in allowing us to see the draft of a proposed Palestine Order in Council embodying a scheme of Government for Palestine, and to discuss the same in our capacity of representatives of the Arab People of Palestine.

• 
  
  We would, therefore, submit the following observations:—

Whilst the position in Palestine is, as it stands to-day, with the British Government holding authority by an occupying force, and using that authority to impose upon the people against their wishes a great immigration of alien Jews, many of them of a Bolshevik revolutionary type, no constitution which would fall short of giving the People of Palestine full control of their own affairs could be acceptable.
If the British Government would revise their present policy in Palestine, end the Zionist con-dominium, put a stop to all alien immigration and grant the People of Palestine — who by Right and Experience are the best judges of what is good and bad to their country — Executive and Legislative powers, the terms of a constitution could be discussed in a different atmosphere. If to-day the People of Palestine assented to any constitution which fell short of giving them full control of their own affairs they would be in the position of agreeing to an instrument of Government which might, and probably would, be used to smother their national life under a flood of alien immigration.

We, therefore, hold that the proposed constitution is wholly unsatisfactory, because:—

• 
  
  (a) In the preamble to the Palestine Order in Council "the declaration of November 2nd, 1917, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish People" is made a basis for this Order; the People of Palestine cannot accept this Declaration as a basis for discussion.
  (b) In Articles 4-9 of the Order dealing with the manner of appointment of the High Commissioner and his powers, Palestine is considered as a colony of the lowest order, whereas according to paragraph 4 of Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, Palestine comes under Grade A, where "certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognised subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory until such time as they are able to stand alone."
  
  (c) The Executive, dealt with in Articles 10-16, is in no way responsible to the Legislative Council.

• 
  (d) Articles 17-28 dealing with the Legislative Council prescribe that this Council "shall consist of 25 members in addition to the High Commissioner"—"who shall exercise a casting vote, in case of an equality of votes." This brings the total number of votes to 27. Of these, 10 shall be official members holding office under the High Commissioner, and two members shall be nominated by him. Thus the High Commissioner commands 14 out of the 27 votes. Of the 12 elected members there will probably be 10 or 11 that would represent the Arab majority, who would be unable to carry any measure against the official preponderance of votes.

It is thus apparent that too much power is given to a High Commissioner whom we will suppose is impartial. But when, as is the case with the present High Commissioner, he is a Zionist, i.e. a member of the organisation which is prompting the flood of alien Jew immigration into Palestine, whose officials as well as those members appointed by him must, naturally, carry out his policy, and when one or two of the 12 elected members will most probably be Zionists, then the Zionist policy of the Government will be carried out under a constitutional guise, whereas at present it is illegal, against the rights and wishes of the people, and maintained by force of arms alone.
Article 22 gives the High Commissioner the power at any time to prorogue or dissolve the Council, without the provision that he must call a new Council within a stated time.

Article 23 gives the High Commissioner the right to veto any measure passed by the Council.

We further submit in this connection that it is not in keeping with the constitutional spirit to place the Head of the Executive at the head of the Legislative and to introduce into this latter, as members, officials of the State. This invariably leads to the Executive becoming arbitrary since it is placed in the position of accused and judge at the same time.

We also notice with astonishment that 10 members constitute a quorum. This is less than half the total number of Members, and makes it possible for the 10 official members to carry on the work of legislation should circumstances, for any reason whatever, prevent the other members from being present. In which case the power of the Legislative Council becomes a mere shadow and not a reality.

• 
  
  (e) By the provisions of Articles 33, 46 and 67, Palestine is considered as a Crown Colony, and the High Commissioner as the Governor of a Colony or British possession with the rights of confirming sentences of death, of deporting any person without trial and without allowing that person the right of appeal against the order for deportation.
  (f) The recognition of Hebrew as an official language of the State as in Article 80 is another proof of the desire to foster Zionist nationalism in Palestine, when only about 10 per cent, of the present Jewish inhabitants of the country speak that language. This innovation is wholly unwarranted and adds to the expenses of the State, which derives its main revenues from the Arab population.
  
  (g) The High Commissioner by Article 81 is given the power to obstruct any appeal to the League of Nations.
  
  (h) Lastly, we read in Article 83 that the High Commissioner may, after obtaining the approval of the Secretary of State, vary, annul or add to the provisions of this Order in Council. These powers of the High Commissioner render this Order in Council as if it had not been.

For these reasons we find that no useful purpose would be served by discussing in detail the draft of "The Palestine Order in Council, 1922."
The Delegation requests that the constitution for Palestine should—

• 
  
  (1) Safeguard the civil, political and economic interests of the People.
  (2) Provide for the creation of a national independent Government in accordance with the spirit of paragraph 4, Article 22, of the Covenant of the League of Nations.
  
  (3) Safeguard the legal rights of foreigners.
  
  (4) Guarantee religious equality to all peoples.
  
  (5) Guarantee the rights of minorities.
  
  (6) Guarantee the rights of the Assisting Power.

The Delegation is quite confident that the justice of the British Government and its sense of fair play will make it consider the above remarks with a sympathetic mind, since the Delegation's chief object is to lay in Palestine the foundation of a stable Government that would command the respect of the inhabitants and guarantee peace and prosperity to all.
The Delegation would request, in conclusion, that the Secretary of State would be good enough to communicate to them his views on their remarks and the next step to be taken in the matter.



We have, &c.,

for THE PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION,

MOUSSA KAZIM EL HUSSEINI, President.

SHIBLY JAMAL, Secretary.

- See more at: UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization British policy in Palestine Churchill White Paper - UK documentation Cmd. 1700 Non-UN document excerpts 1 July 1922

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

With you, the word "liar" comes quite easy to use; and often out of context.

"No representative of the Palestinian People had made a bid, on behalf of the Palestinian People, for Independence and Sovereignty through the right of self-determination without external influence prior to 1988."

As usual, Rocco, you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are a pathological liar.

[Cmd. 1700.]
PALESTINE.
CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE PALESTINE ARAB
DELEGATION AND THE ZIONIST ORGANISATION.
​

......

for THE PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION,

MOUSSA KAZIM EL HUSSEINI, President.

SHIBLY JAMAL, Secretary.

- See more at: UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization British policy in Palestine Churchill White Paper - UK documentation Cmd. 1700 Non-UN document excerpts 1 July 1922

(COMMENT)

This trilateral correspondence does not constitute a bid for Independence and Sovereignty. However, there is such a later announcement from "Husseini and Company" that is a flawed quasi-bid for independence. The All-Palestine Government (APG) was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (dissolved in 1959 by decree of Egyptian President Nasser).

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT​

28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

​

The APG President - 1948 Hajj Amin al-Husseini (former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Member of the Arab Higher Committee and in the same family line as Moussa Kasim al-Husseini) --- and --- APG Prime Minister - 1948 Ahmed Hilmi Pasha.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

montelatici, et al,

With you, the word "liar" comes quite easy to use; and often out of context.

"No representative of the Palestinian People had made a bid, on behalf of the Palestinian People, for Independence and Sovereignty through the right of self-determination without external influence prior to 1988."

As usual, Rocco, you either don't know what you are talking about, or you are a pathological liar.

[Cmd. 1700.]
PALESTINE.
CORRESPONDENCE WITH THE PALESTINE ARAB
DELEGATION AND THE ZIONIST ORGANISATION.
​

......

for THE PALESTINE ARAB DELEGATION,

MOUSSA KAZIM EL HUSSEINI, President.

SHIBLY JAMAL, Secretary.

- See more at: UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization British policy in Palestine Churchill White Paper - UK documentation Cmd. 1700 Non-UN document excerpts 1 July 1922

(COMMENT)

This trilateral correspondence does not constitute a bid for Independence and Sovereignty. However, there is such a later announcement from "Husseini and Company" that is a flawed quasi-bid for independence. The All-Palestine Government (APG) was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (dissolved in 1959 by decree of Egyptian President Nasser).

PALESTINE PROGRESS REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS
MEDIATOR ON PALESTINE

CABLEGRAM DATED 28 SEPTEMBER 1948 FROM THE PREMIER AND
ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT
TO THE SECRETARY-GENERAL CONCERNING
CONSTITUTION OF ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT​

28 September 1948


I HAVE THE HONOR TO INFORM YOUR EXCELLENCY THAT IN VIRTUE OF THE NATURAL RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE OF PALESTINE FOR SELF-DETERMINATION WHICH PRINCIPLE IS SUPPORTED BY THE CHARTERS OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, THE UNITED NATIONS AND OTHERS AND IN VIEW OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER PALESTINE WHICH HAD PREVENTED THE ARABS FROM EXERCISING THEIR INDEPENDENCE, THE ARABS OF PALESTINE WHO ARE THE OWNERS OF THE COUNTRY AND ITS INDIGENOUS INHABITANTS AND WHO CONSTITUTE THE GREAT MAJORITY OF ITS LEGAL POPULATION HAVE SOLEMNLY RESOLVED TO DECLARE PALESTINE IN ITS ENTIRETY AND WITHIN ITS BOUNDARIES AS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AND CONSTITUTED A GOVERNMENT UNDER THE NAME OF THE ALL-PALESTINE GOVERNMENT DERIVING ITS AUTHORITY FROM A REPRESENTATIVE COUNCIL BASED ON DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLES AND AIMING TO SAFEGUARD THE RIGHTS OF MINORITIES AND FOREIGNERS PROTECT THE HOLY PLACES AND GUARANTEE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP TO ALL COMMUNITIES

AHMED HILMI PASHA
PREMIER AND ACTING FOREIGN SECRETARY​

​

The APG President - 1948 Hajj Amin al-Husseini (former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Member of the Arab Higher Committee and in the family line as Moussa Kasim al-Husseini) --- and --- APG Prime Minister - 1948 Ahmed Hilmi Pasha.

Most Respectfully,
R

Why do you call this a flawed quasi-bid for independence? It is considerably more legitimate than the foreigners declaring a state inside Palestine.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, well --- when all is said and done, this is a manifestation of the actual Arab-Palestinian and Israeli dispute.

Why do you call this a flawed quasi-bid for independence? It is considerably more legitimate than the foreigners declaring a state inside Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Whether we speak of the original complaint by the Arab Higher Committee, the view of the All-Palestine Government, or the political position of the various contemporary Arab Palestinian organizations that gave rise to the Jihadist and Fedayeen --- the:

Israeli position is that they established the State of Israeli by following the Steps Preparatory to Independence; and fully coordinated with the appropriate UN agencies.

The Arab Palestinian believe that the authority exercised by the Council to the League of Nations, the Allied Powers, and the successor organizations of the UN was and is --- invalid.

The Arab Palestinian believes that the entirety of the territory formerly under the authority of the Mandate for Palestine is Arab, and that Arab are the only entity that can legitimately exercise government control and sovereignty over the territory.
​

But the Israeli Government successfully fought both a limited Civil War (with the indigenous Arab population), and a War of Independence (with the adjacent Arab States). The successful defense of the right to self determination has never been accepted by the Arab Palestinian. And that is the basis of the continuing conflict between the Arab and Israeli.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, well --- when all is said and done, this is a manifestation of the actual Arab-Palestinian and Israeli dispute.

Why do you call this a flawed quasi-bid for independence? It is considerably more legitimate than the foreigners declaring a state inside Palestine.

(COMMENT)

Whether we speak of the original complaint by the Arab Higher Committee, the view of the All-Palestine Government, or the political position of the various contemporary Arab Palestinian organizations that gave rise to the Jihadist and Fedayeen --- the:

Israeli position is that they established the State of Israeli by following the Steps Preparatory to Independence; and fully coordinated with the appropriate UN agencies.

The Arab Palestinian believe that the authority exercised by the Council to the League of Nations, the Allied Powers, and the successor organizations of the UN was and is --- invalid.

The Arab Palestinian believes that the entirety of the territory formerly under the authority of the Mandate for Palestine is Arab, and that Arab are the only entity that can legitimately exercise government control and sovereignty over the territory.
​

But the Israeli Government successfully fought both a limited Civil War (with the indigenous Arab population), and a War of Independence (with the adjacent Arab States). The successful defense of the right to self determination has never been accepted by the Arab Palestinian. And that is the basis of the continuing conflict between the Arab and Israeli.

Most Respectfully,
R

But the Israeli Government successfully fought both a limited Civil War (with the indigenous Arab population), and a War of Independence (with the adjacent Arab States). The successful defense of the right to self determination has never been accepted by the Arab Palestinian. And that is the basis of the continuing conflict between the Arab and Israeli.​

It is illegal to acquire territory through the threat or use of force.

A war with the "indigenous Arab population" is a civil war? That's nuts.

BTW, you have never explained how foreigners get the right to self determination in another country.