Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Hollie]

can see a very marked difference between the development of Israel (a very positive outcome) and the development (a less successful outcome) of the surrounding Arab-related nations

Israel has had wealth and power shoveled in its direction for over a hundred years while the surrounding countries have suffered under hostile foreign intervention. Palestine has suffered the most under hostile foreign intervention.

I'm not clear that Arab-Moslem wars of aggression aimed at Israel would describe ''wealth and power shoveled in its direction''.

Maybe if you wrote a coherent comment?

Sure, since you know so little about Israel.

From the Rothschilds to little blue boxes, tax deductible "charity" donations, foreign aid, sweetheart corporate deals. Vetoes against everything Israel in the UN. After Israel kicked out the Palestinians stealing their land and everything else they wanted they went and robbed the banks.

Your ''stolen Pally land" slogan is a total hoot.

The following question has been posed to you more times than anyone can count with no response, but here goes; what sovereign Pally land was stolen?

Why do you post here when you know so little?

That information is all over the place. By 1947, the Jews had only bought 5-7% of Palestine. By 1948 they controlled 78%. How did that happen?

By vesting sovereignty with the Jewish nation in international law.
What you're conflating here is personal ownership with national sovereignty.
Till this day the Arabs make all sorts of threats and accusations referring to their supposed Ottoman deeds, but for some reason, they never dare to present them to make a precedent.

Why are Arabs afraid of revealing the Ottoman archive?

That ducks the question.

No, the question is addressed directly,
you just don't like the answer, but neither can refute.

So are you intentionally conflating personal ownership with national sovereignty,
or you're that stupid and just repeating the stupid things without understanding them?

You are ducking the question. Sovereignty can only be be applied by the sovereign nationals.

Ok, but does that refute what I say?
I've answered yours, didn't see you answer mine.

What part of my response do you not understand?

No I understand now perfectly - because you can't defend any of the nonesense you mindlessly repeat, or address the followup questions, everyone else is stupid, not you.

See, It takes me just 2 posts before gaslighting
becomes a BDS-hole's last line of defense.

If you believe facts are on your side,
why do all your arguments end with mere accusations,
but you can't actually address anything or string an original thought?

You still have not addressed the application of sovereignty.

Nice duck.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: You are intentionally trying to confuse the issue. There are TWO kinds of sovereignty.

◈ Individual sovereignty as it applies to emancipation. We are not talking about an individual person being set free from some legal, social, or political restrictions; or coming of age.​

​

◈ We are talking about "State Sovereignty" wherein political theory, the ultimate authority in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order.​

You are ducking the question. Sovereignty can only be applied by the sovereign nationals.

You still have not addressed the application of sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

State Sovereignty is NOT dependent on individual sovereignty. I'll use the example of the Regional State of "Saudi Arabia." Saudi Arabia is a government ruled under the theory of "absolutism." It is a political doctrine and practice of unlimited, centralized authority and absolute sovereignty, especially as vested in a monarch.

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: You are intentionally trying to confuse the issue. There are TWO kinds of sovereignty.

◈ Individual sovereignty as it applies to emancipation. We are not talking about an individual person being set free from some legal, social, or political restrictions; or coming of age.​

​

◈ We are talking about "State Sovereignty" wherein political theory, the ultimate authority in the decision-making process of the state and in the maintenance of order.​

You are ducking the question. Sovereignty can only be applied by the sovereign nationals.

You still have not addressed the application of sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

State Sovereignty is NOT dependent on individual sovereignty. I'll use the example of the Regional State of "Saudi Arabia." Saudi Arabia is a government ruled under the theory of "absolutism." It is a political doctrine and practice of unlimited, centralized authority and absolute sovereignty, especially as vested in a monarch.

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

Most Respectfully,
R

I try to keep it simple. I post a one liner question and get a page of deflection.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

I try to keep it simple. I post a one liner question and get a page of deflection.

(COMMENT)

Here - you did it again.

And I would not complain about the thumbnail comprehensive answers. Even the childlike questions about → what is life? or → why is the sky blue? are more complex than a one-line answer can make it.

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

I try to keep it simple. I post a one liner question and get a page of deflection.

(COMMENT)

Here - you did it again.

And I would not complain about the thumbnail comprehensive answers. Even the childlike questions about → what is life? or → why is the sky blue? are more complex than a one-line answer can make it.

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

Most Respectfully,
R

Sovereignty can only be applied by the sovereign nationals.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

I try to keep it simple. I post a one liner question and get a page of deflection.

(COMMENT)

Here - you did it again.

And I would not complain about the thumbnail comprehensive answers. Even the childlike questions about → what is life? or → why is the sky blue? are more complex than a one-line answer can make it.

NOW! What is your question you are so anxious to have addressed? Use the "KISS" principle.

Most Respectfully,
R

Sovereignty can only be applied by the sovereign nationals.

Wouldn't sovereign nationals already be, you know, sovereign?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Sovereignty
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Addressed in Posting #18722

Sovereignty can only be applied by the sovereign nationals.

(COMMENT)

This is a statement, NOT a question. I disagree with your statement. It is clear that my understand of "sovereignty" is much different than your understanding.

Reference:

​

The question of state "sovereignty" as in the "principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members" [Article 2(1) Chapter I, UN Charter] "is not originally or primarily an abstract idea fashioned by philosophers and other theoreticians and then applied in practice. It is an expedient idea worked out by kings and other rulers, and their representatives and agents, in response to the novel circumstances of sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Europe. The political arrangements and legal practices of sovereignty came first, the academic theories later." (Preface xi • Sovereignty Evolution of an Idea • Copyright © Robert Jackson 2007 • First published in 2007 by Polity Press, Cambridge CB2 1UR, UK • ISBN-13: 978-07456-2338-2) Sovereignty is a distinctive configuration of state authority. "By 'state' I refer to the conventional meaning: a defined and delimited territory, with a permanent population, under the authority of a government. A 'state' could be a colonial state in an empire or a 'state' of the United States. Neither of those states, however, are 'sovereign' states. Governmental supremacy and independence is that distinctive configuration of state authority that we refer to as 'sovereignty' -." (Page 6 • Copyright © Robert Jackson)​

sovereignty ‘Sovereignty as a principle of international law must be sharply distinguished from other related uses of the term: sovereignty in its internal aspects and political sovereignty. Sovereignty in its internal aspects is concerned with the identity of the bearer of supreme authority within a State.
SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, Page 563, Copyright © 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016

There is no dependent connection wherein "individual sovereignty" is required or a prerequisite for "state sovereignty." It is totally dependent on domestic and the type of government.

Do you have enough information? • Or • Do you have a follow-on topic?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Sovereignty
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: Addressed in Posting #18722

Sovereignty can only be applied by the sovereign nationals.

(COMMENT)

This is a statement, NOT a question. I disagree with your statement. It is clear that my understand of "sovereignty" is much different than your understanding.

Reference:

​

The question of state "sovereignty" as in the "principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members" [Article 2(1) Chapter I, UN Charter] "is not originally or primarily an abstract idea fashioned by philosophers and other theoreticians and then applied in practice. It is an expedient idea worked out by kings and other rulers, and their representatives and agents, in response to the novel circumstances of sixteenth- and seventeenth-century Europe. The political arrangements and legal practices of sovereignty came first, the academic theories later." (Preface xi • Sovereignty Evolution of an Idea • Copyright © Robert Jackson 2007 • First published in 2007 by Polity Press, Cambridge CB2 1UR, UK • ISBN-13: 978-07456-2338-2) Sovereignty is a distinctive configuration of state authority. "By 'state' I refer to the conventional meaning: a defined and delimited territory, with a permanent population, under the authority of a government. A 'state' could be a colonial state in an empire or a 'state' of the United States. Neither of those states, however, are 'sovereign' states. Governmental supremacy and independence is that distinctive configuration of state authority that we refer to as 'sovereignty' -." (Page 6 • Copyright © Robert Jackson)​

​

sovereignty ‘Sovereignty as a principle of international law must be sharply distinguished from other related uses of the term: sovereignty in its internal aspects and political sovereignty. Sovereignty in its internal aspects is concerned with the identity of the bearer of supreme authority within a State.​

SOURCE: Parry & Grant Encyclopaedic Dictionary of International Law, Page 563, Copyright © 2009 by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016​

​

​

There is no dependent connection wherein "individual sovereignty" is required or a prerequisite for "state sovereignty." It is totally dependent on domestic and the type of government.

Do you have enough information? • Or • Do you have a follow-on topic?

Most Respectfully,
R

What part of all that disagrees with my statement?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Sovereignty
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is no dependent connection wherein "individual sovereignty" is required or a prerequisite for "state sovereignty." It is totally dependent on domestic and the type of government. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has "state sovereignty" that is NOT applied by "sovereign nationals." The sovereignty is applied by the Royal Family.

What part of all that disagrees with my statement?

(COMMENT)

Nothing in your statement is correct. Absolutely nothing.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Lastamender]

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Sovereignty
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: There is no dependent connection wherein "individual sovereignty" is required or a prerequisite for "state sovereignty." It is totally dependent on domestic and the type of government. The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has "state sovereignty" that is NOT applied by "sovereign nationals." The sovereignty is applied by the Royal Family.

View attachment 461433
What part of all that disagrees with my statement?

(COMMENT)

Nothing in your statement is correct. Absolutely nothing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Are you saying that the nationals in a defined territory are not the sovereigns of that territory?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Sovereignty
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: The terms "individual sovereignty" and "state sovereignty" are similar concepts but not the same thing.

Nothing in your statement is correct. Absolutely nothing.

Are you saying that the nationals in a defined territory are not the sovereigns of that territory?

(COMMENT)

Individual sovereignty is about civil emancipation. That is personal ownership (sometimes called self-ownership) (I am my own man, not a slave. I am an adult not subordinate to my parents.) Sometimes, a "juvenile" (under the age of 18) needs to justify to a court why they should be determined sovereign. There are different applications to the term "sovereignty. From Black's Law Dictionary® • Ninth Edition:

sovereign, n. (Be) 1. A person, body, or state vested with​

independent and supreme authority. 2. The ruler of an​

independent state. - Also spelled sovran. See SOVEREIGNTY.​

​

sovereign equality. Int'l Jaw. The principle that nations​

have the right to enjoy territorial integrity and political​

independence, free from intervention by other nations, .​

• The United Nations "is based on the principle of the​

sovereign equality of all its Members." UN Charter art.​

2, ~ 1. [Cases: International Law C::; 10.45(1).]​

​

sovereign people. (17c) The political body consisting of​

the collective number of citizens and qualified electors​

who possess the powers of sovereignty and exercise​

them through their chosen representatives.​

​

sovereign state. (17c) 1. A state that possesses an independent​

existence, being complete in itself, without​

being merely part of a larger whole to whose government​

it is subject. 2. A political community whose​

members are bound together by the tie of common​

subjection to some central authority, whose commands​

those members must obey. Also termed independent​

state. Cf. client state, nonsovereign state under STATE.​

[Cases: International Law ~3.]​

​

"The essence of statehood is sovereignty. the principle that​

each nation answers only to its own domestic order and is​

not accountable to a larger international community, save​

only to the extent it has consented to do so. Sovereign​

states are thus conceived as hermetically sealed units,​

atoms that spin around an international orbit, sometimes​

colliding, sometimes cooperating, but always separate and​

apart." David j. Bederman, International Law Frameworks​

50 (2001)​

To answer your question more specifically, to be "sovereigns of that territory" - as you can glean from above must be - " A political community whose members are bound together by the tie of common subjection to some central authority, whose commands those members must obey. But that is unique to a specific government. The US Congress is a central authority that can create Federal Law that must be obeyed. I am sovereign only in the sense that I may cast my ballot for a representative. Neither I nor the representative can, individually, dictate law that "must be obeyed." However, the HM the King of Saudi Arabia can create law and can commute sentences by a Saudi Court. HM holds the power of life and death. Why! Because HE IS a Sovereign over the land.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

Most Respectfully,
R

Attribution Note:
"BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY" is a registered trademark of Thomson Reuters.
Registered in U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.
COPYRIGHT © 1891.1910.1933.1951.1957.1968.1979.1990 WEST PUBUSHING CO.
© West. a Thomson business. 1999. 2004
© 2009 Thomson Reuters

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Sovereignty
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: The terms "individual sovereignty" and "state sovereignty" are similar concepts but not the same thing.

Nothing in your statement is correct. Absolutely nothing.

Are you saying that the nationals in a defined territory are not the sovereigns of that territory?

(COMMENT)

Individual sovereignty is about civil emancipation. That is personal ownership (sometimes called self-ownership) (I am my own man, not a slave. I am an adult not subordinate to my parents.) Sometimes, a "juvenile" (under the age of 18) needs to justify to a court why they should be determined sovereign. There are different applications to the term "sovereignty. From Black's Law Dictionary® • Ninth Edition:

sovereign, n. (Be) 1. A person, body, or state vested with​

independent and supreme authority. 2. The ruler of an​

independent state. - Also spelled sovran. See SOVEREIGNTY.​

​

sovereign equality. Int'l Jaw. The principle that nations​

have the right to enjoy territorial integrity and political​

independence, free from intervention by other nations, .​

• The United Nations "is based on the principle of the​

sovereign equality of all its Members." UN Charter art.​

2, ~ 1. [Cases: International Law C::; 10.45(1).]​

​

sovereign people. (17c) The political body consisting of​

the collective number of citizens and qualified electors​

who possess the powers of sovereignty and exercise​

them through their chosen representatives.​

​

sovereign state. (17c) 1. A state that possesses an independent​

existence, being complete in itself, without​

being merely part of a larger whole to whose government​

it is subject. 2. A political community whose​

members are bound together by the tie of common​

subjection to some central authority, whose commands​

those members must obey. Also termed independent​

state. Cf. client state, nonsovereign state under STATE.​

[Cases: International Law ~3.]​

​

"The essence of statehood is sovereignty. the principle that​

each nation answers only to its own domestic order and is​

not accountable to a larger international community, save​

only to the extent it has consented to do so. Sovereign​

states are thus conceived as hermetically sealed units,​

atoms that spin around an international orbit, sometimes​

colliding, sometimes cooperating, but always separate and​

apart." David j. Bederman, International Law Frameworks​

50 (2001)​

To answer your question more specifically, to be "sovereigns of that territory" - as you can glean from above must be - " A political community whose members are bound together by the tie of common subjection to some central authority, whose commands those members must obey. But that is unique to a specific government. The US Congress is a central authority that can create Federal Law that must be obeyed. I am sovereign only in the sense that I may cast my ballot for a representative. Neither I nor the representative can, individually, dictate law that "must be obeyed." However, the HM the King of Saudi Arabia can create law and can commute sentences by a Saudi Court. HM holds the power of life and death. Why! Because HE IS a Sovereign over the land.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

Most Respectfully,
R

Attribution Note:
"BLACK'S LAW DICTIONARY" is a registered trademark of Thomson Reuters.
Registered in U.S. Patent and Trademark Office.
COPYRIGHT © 1891.1910.1933.1951.1957.1968.1979.1990 WEST PUBUSHING CO.
© West. a Thomson business. 1999. 2004
© 2009 Thomson Reuters

These are the inalienable rights of all peoples inside their defined territory.

1) The right to self determination without external interference.
2) The right to independence and sovereignty.
3) The right to territorial integrity.​

None of these allow any foreign intervention. These rights are reserved for the people without exception.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
SUBTOPIC: Sovereignty
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: The inalienable Rights of the Arab Palestinians DO NOT NEGATE the inalienable Rights of the Israels. The is the concept of "equality."

These are the inalienable rights of all peoples inside their defined territory.

1) The right to self determination without external interference.​

2) The right to independence and sovereignty.​

3) The right to territorial integrity.​

None of these allow any foreign intervention. These rights are reserved for the people without exception.

(COMMENT)

As you point out, these inalienable Rights require a defined territory. It is only reasonable to assume that the defined territory is in question:

​

In December 2012, "Palestine was NOT identified as a State, or a country nor could its authorities be identified as a government.

If I am wrong, I am in good company.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

The inalienable Rights of the Arab Palestinians DO NOT NEGATE the inalienable Rights of the Israels.

Links?

 

[P F Tinmore]

As you point out, these inalienable Rights require a defined territory. It is only reasonable to assume that the defined territory is in question:

Indeed, you have been dancing around that question for years.

 

[rylah]

can see a very marked difference between the development of Israel (a very positive outcome) and the development (a less successful outcome) of the surrounding Arab-related nations

Israel has had wealth and power shoveled in its direction for over a hundred years while the surrounding countries have suffered under hostile foreign intervention. Palestine has suffered the most under hostile foreign intervention.

I'm not clear that Arab-Moslem wars of aggression aimed at Israel would describe ''wealth and power shoveled in its direction''.

Maybe if you wrote a coherent comment?

Sure, since you know so little about Israel.

From the Rothschilds to little blue boxes, tax deductible "charity" donations, foreign aid, sweetheart corporate deals. Vetoes against everything Israel in the UN. After Israel kicked out the Palestinians stealing their land and everything else they wanted they went and robbed the banks.

Your ''stolen Pally land" slogan is a total hoot.

The following question has been posed to you more times than anyone can count with no response, but here goes; what sovereign Pally land was stolen?

Why do you post here when you know so little?

That information is all over the place. By 1947, the Jews had only bought 5-7% of Palestine. By 1948 they controlled 78%. How did that happen?

By vesting sovereignty with the Jewish nation in international law.
What you're conflating here is personal ownership with national sovereignty.
Till this day the Arabs make all sorts of threats and accusations referring to their supposed Ottoman deeds, but for some reason, they never dare to present them to make a precedent.

Why are Arabs afraid of revealing the Ottoman archive?

That ducks the question.

No, the question is addressed directly,
you just don't like the answer, but neither can refute.

So are you intentionally conflating personal ownership with national sovereignty,
or you're that stupid and just repeating the stupid things without understanding them?

You are ducking the question. Sovereignty can only be be applied by the sovereign nationals.

Ok, but does that refute what I say?
I've answered yours, didn't see you answer mine.

What part of my response do you not understand?

No I understand now perfectly - because you can't defend any of the nonesense you mindlessly repeat, or address the followup questions, everyone else is stupid, not you.

See, It takes me just 2 posts before gaslighting
becomes a BDS-hole's last line of defense.

If you believe facts are on your side,
why do all your arguments end with mere accusations,
but you can't actually address anything or string an original thought?

You still have not addressed the application of sovereignty.

I have, you just don't accept what I say,
or make any clear counter argument.

Making general statements without explaining
how they actually support your claims is a useless exercise.

Can you as an individual actually make a coherent argument,
that is not limited to a meaningless list of populist catchphrases?

 

[rylah]

The inalienable Rights of the Arab Palestinians DO NOT NEGATE the inalienable Rights of the Israels.

Links?

Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

can see a very marked difference between the development of Israel (a very positive outcome) and the development (a less successful outcome) of the surrounding Arab-related nations Israel has had wealth and power shoveled in its direction for over a hundred years while the surrounding...

www.usmessageboard.com

Who said "These rights are reserved for the people without exception."?

On what basis do you discriminate against Jews?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The inalienable Rights of the Arab Palestinians DO NOT NEGATE the inalienable Rights of the Israels.

Links?

Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

can see a very marked difference between the development of Israel (a very positive outcome) and the development (a less successful outcome) of the surrounding Arab-related nations Israel has had wealth and power shoveled in its direction for over a hundred years while the surrounding...

www.usmessageboard.com

Who said "These rights are reserved for the people without exception."?

On what basis do you discriminate against Jews?

Who said "These rights are reserved for the people without exception."?

International law.

I know, Israel does not give a rat's behind about international law.

 

[rylah]

The inalienable Rights of the Arab Palestinians DO NOT NEGATE the inalienable Rights of the Israels.

Links?

Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

can see a very marked difference between the development of Israel (a very positive outcome) and the development (a less successful outcome) of the surrounding Arab-related nations Israel has had wealth and power shoveled in its direction for over a hundred years while the surrounding...

www.usmessageboard.com

Who said "These rights are reserved for the people without exception."?

On what basis do you discriminate against Jews?

Who said "These rights are reserved for the people without exception."?

International law.

I know, Israel does not give a rat's behind about international law.

And yet you're the one here suggesting it shouldn't be upheld equally.

What "international law" allows you to discriminate against Jews?