Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[montelatici]

There were a handful of Jews in Palestine at the time, not "thousands".

The original French text of the letter makes it clear who Napoleon was writing to.

"Alors, debout dans la joie, vous les exilés! (Then stand in joy, you the exiles!). Par une guerre sans exemple dans les annales de l’histoire, guerre engagée pour son auto-défense par une nation dont les territoires héréditaires étaient considérés par l’ennemi comme un butin à partager arbitrairement.........."

PROCLAMATION DE BONAPARTE SUR LA PALESTINE

Maybe You overlook the simple fact that when Napoleon wrote it he was in Palestine with his army.
In addition any basic research according to either McCarthy, Scholch or the Ottoman Consensus shows Jews to be 2%-6% of the population in the area Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre Sanjaks.
In The Ottoman Census of 1878 there're 15000 Jews with additional 5000-10000 more foreign citizens estimated by different studies.

Indeed THOUSANDS of Palestinian Jews.

Well, fortunately I have access to the actual census, translated into English. The area in question is called the Kudus (Jerusalem) Special District. In that district there were 104 Jewish females and 112 Jewish males. In the whole of the Ottoman Empire there were less than 200,000 Jews and almost all were in Istanbul and the European part of the Empire.

Ottoman Population, 1830-1914 by Kemal H. Karpat - UNZ.org

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Here you go again with incitement.

Like the demand to decolonize Palestine?

(COMMENT)

The Jewish State of Israel is NOT a COLONIAL POWER. The "demand to decolonize Palestine" is just another way of demanding Israel surrender.

Worse, its the demand to remove people from a territory based on ethnicity, aka ethnic cleansing.

If you check out BDS, not one person calls for the removal of Jews.

Try again as it is an underlying principle, and you have been shown this many times

And saying it a thousand times more still won't make it true.

And proving it just once will, and no matter how many times you deny this it wont alter the facts

 

[Phoenall]

There were a handful of Jews in Palestine at the time, not "thousands".

The original French text of the letter makes it clear who Napoleon was writing to.

"Alors, debout dans la joie, vous les exilés! (Then stand in joy, you the exiles!). Par une guerre sans exemple dans les annales de l’histoire, guerre engagée pour son auto-défense par une nation dont les territoires héréditaires étaient considérés par l’ennemi comme un butin à partager arbitrairement.........."

PROCLAMATION DE BONAPARTE SUR LA PALESTINE

Maybe You overlook the simple fact that when Napoleon wrote it he was in Palestine with his army.
In addition any basic research according to either McCarthy, Scholch or the Ottoman Consensus shows Jews to be 2%-6% of the population in the area Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre Sanjaks.
In The Ottoman Census of 1878 there're 15000 Jews with additional 5000-10000 more foreign citizens estimated by different studies.

Indeed THOUSANDS of Palestinian Jews.

Well, fortunately I have access to the actual census, translated into English. The area in question is called the Kudus (Jerusalem) Special District. In that district there were 104 Jewish females and 112 Jewish males. In the whole of the Ottoman Empire there were less than 200,000 Jews and almost all were in Istanbul and the European part of the Empire.

View attachment 105796

Ottoman Population, 1830-1914 by Kemal H. Karpat - UNZ.org


View attachment 105798

So where is the population figures for palestine then, all you have copied is those for parts of Turkey

 

[rylah]

There were a handful of Jews in Palestine at the time, not "thousands".

The original French text of the letter makes it clear who Napoleon was writing to.

"Alors, debout dans la joie, vous les exilés! (Then stand in joy, you the exiles!). Par une guerre sans exemple dans les annales de l’histoire, guerre engagée pour son auto-défense par une nation dont les territoires héréditaires étaient considérés par l’ennemi comme un butin à partager arbitrairement.........."

PROCLAMATION DE BONAPARTE SUR LA PALESTINE

Maybe You overlook the simple fact that when Napoleon wrote it he was in Palestine with his army.
In addition any basic research according to either McCarthy, Scholch or the Ottoman Consensus shows Jews to be 2%-6% of the population in the area Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre Sanjaks.
In The Ottoman Census of 1878 there're 15000 Jews with additional 5000-10000 more foreign citizens estimated by different studies.

Indeed THOUSANDS of Palestinian Jews.

Well, fortunately I have access to the actual census, translated into English. The area in question is called the Kudus (Jerusalem) Special District. In that district there were 104 Jewish females and 112 Jewish males. In the whole of the Ottoman Empire there were less than 200,000 Jews and almost all were in Istanbul and the European part of the Empire.

View attachment 105796

Ottoman Population, 1830-1914 by Kemal H. Karpat - UNZ.org


View attachment 105798

Do You have a link where we can see the headlines of these tables?

 

[montelatici]

Not without payment. This is not a free document unfortunately. I had the actual book scanned years ago on a primitive scanner when I was doing research as an assistant professor for a short while. I can try to clip a bigger portion of the page on the left tomorrow when I have access to a different computer.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israeli forces who turned up to demolish a home in the West Bank village of Budrus were met with an unexpected obstacle: dozens of Palestinian women protecting the house with their bodies.

WATCH: Palestinian women prevent West Bank home demolition | +972 Magazine

 

[Phoenall]

Not without payment. This is not a free document unfortunately. I had the actual book scanned years ago on a primitive scanner when I was doing research as an assistant professor for a short while. I can try to clip a bigger portion of the page on the left tomorrow when I have access to a different computer.

In other words it is just another of your fakes

 

[Phoenall]

Israeli forces who turned up to demolish a home in the West Bank village of Budrus were met with an unexpected obstacle: dozens of Palestinian women protecting the house with their bodies.

WATCH: Palestinian women prevent West Bank home demolition | +972 Magazine

Now say they are not acting as human shields, and not being killed as a result

 

[rylah]

Not without payment. This is not a free document unfortunately. I had the actual book scanned years ago on a primitive scanner when I was doing research as an assistant professor for a short while. I can try to clip a bigger portion of the page on the left tomorrow when I have access to a different computer.

Make it clear so we can see the headlines on both pages, and the year of this data. Without it we cannot draw any conclusions due to the Falah's (Peasant) Revolt that began with infiltration of the Jewish quarter in Jerusalem and the earthquakes around that time.

In addition if You have the book please include the population of the Jews in the northern area where Safed, Acre, and Tiberias - the center of Jewish communities at the time.

 

[rylah]

There were a handful of Jews in Palestine at the time, not "thousands".

The original French text of the letter makes it clear who Napoleon was writing to.

"Alors, debout dans la joie, vous les exilés! (Then stand in joy, you the exiles!). Par une guerre sans exemple dans les annales de l’histoire, guerre engagée pour son auto-défense par une nation dont les territoires héréditaires étaient considérés par l’ennemi comme un butin à partager arbitrairement.........."

PROCLAMATION DE BONAPARTE SUR LA PALESTINE

Maybe You overlook the simple fact that when Napoleon wrote it he was in Palestine with his army.
In addition any basic research according to either McCarthy, Scholch or the Ottoman Consensus shows Jews to be 2%-6% of the population in the area Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre Sanjaks.
In The Ottoman Census of 1878 there're 15000 Jews with additional 5000-10000 more foreign citizens estimated by different studies.

Indeed THOUSANDS of Palestinian Jews.

Well, fortunately I have access to the actual census, translated into English. The area in question is called the Kudus (Jerusalem) Special District. In that district there were 104 Jewish females and 112 Jewish males. In the whole of the Ottoman Empire there were less than 200,000 Jews and almost all were in Istanbul and the European part of the Empire.

View attachment 105796

Ottoman Population, 1830-1914 by Kemal H. Karpat - UNZ.org


View attachment 105798

This is closer to what the majority of scholars like McCarthy and Schloch described.

Population of Jerusalem as reported by Cesar Famin, a French diplomat in 1853 (p.49):

Jews - - - - - - - - - 8,000
Muslims - - - - - - - 4,000
Christians - - - - - 3,490
--------------------------------
Total - - - - - - - - 15,490

 

[rylah]

Here's another example with information from a variety of source depicting the same situation as above. Mind You most scholars reported such numbers (with tolerable variations).

Jerusalem and Its Environs - p. 28-29

 

[montelatici]

Most scholars you are referencing did not have access to the source Ottoman census data nor could they understand it. The first accurate translation and compilation of the Ottoman censuses was performed in 1985, what I am providing information from. Plus, something published by Hebrew University must be taken with a grain of salt.

As promised, here are the top level categories. As you can discern the categories of the source material are far different from the ones of the "scholars" who did not know how to read the source census material. That alone should tell how reliable that information is.

 

[montelatici]

Now, to provide more evidence.

This is the total ethnic distribution of in the Balkans.

This the ethnic distribution of Rumelia (the Roman lands, mostly Greece).

The total distribution of religions of Ottoman Europe

The Grand total of Jews in the whole of the empire 1890:
Female Male

Out of 194,006 Jews in the 1881-93 census period 190,000 were in Europe. That leaves about 4,000 distributed through the non-European part of the empire. Obviously, census data is not 100% accurate, but you can see why it is impossible for Jerusalem to have had 20+ thousand Jews in the 1880-90s.

 

[Phoenall]

Now, to provide more evidence.

This is the total ethnic distribution of in the Balkans.


View attachment 105967

This the ethnic distribution of Rumelia (the Roman lands, mostly Greece).

View attachment 105968

The total distribution of religions of Ottoman Europe

View attachment 105969

The Grand total of Jews in the whole of the empire 1890:
Female Male
View attachment 105970

Out of 194,006 Jews in the 1881-93 census period 190,000 were in Europe. That leaves about 4,000 distributed through the non-European part of the empire. Obviously, census data is not 100% accurate, but you can see why it is impossible for Jerusalem to have had 20+ thousand Jews in the 1880-90s.

So nothing to do with Israel or palestine then, just more of your deflection because the LIES are coming home to roost

 

[rylah]

Most scholars you are referencing did not have access to the source Ottoman census data nor could they understand it. The first accurate translation and compilation of the Ottoman censuses was performed in 1985, what I am providing information from. Plus, something published by Hebrew University must be taken with a grain of salt.

As promised, here are the top level categories. As you can discern the categories of the source material are far different from the ones of the "scholars" who did not know how to read the source census material. That alone should tell how reliable that information is.

View attachment 105964

Monte this:

is clearly not from these 2 pages:

All I asked You was to show the FULL table, including the headlines on BOTH pages and the exact years. But if we look at the two page that You've attached (above), it's clear that the left and the right pages and lines do not correspond with the lines on the left and right pages below.

Where are the headline and years I've asked You initially?

 

[rylah]

Now, to provide more evidence.

This is the total ethnic distribution of in the Balkans.


View attachment 105967

This the ethnic distribution of Rumelia (the Roman lands, mostly Greece).

View attachment 105968

The total distribution of religions of Ottoman Europe

View attachment 105969

The Grand total of Jews in the whole of the empire 1890:
Female Male
View attachment 105970

Out of 194,006 Jews in the 1881-93 census period 190,000 were in Europe. That leaves about 4,000 distributed through the non-European part of the empire. Obviously, census data is not 100% accurate, but you can see why it is impossible for Jerusalem to have had 20+ thousand Jews in the 1880-90s.

Now, to provide more evidence.

This is the total ethnic distribution of in the Balkans.


View attachment 105967

This the ethnic distribution of Rumelia (the Roman lands, mostly Greece).

View attachment 105968

The total distribution of religions of Ottoman Europe

View attachment 105969

The Grand total of Jews in the whole of the empire 1890:
Female Male
View attachment 105970

Out of 194,006 Jews in the 1881-93 census period 190,000 were in Europe. That leaves about 4,000 distributed through the non-European part of the empire. Obviously, census data is not 100% accurate, but you can see why it is impossible for Jerusalem to have had 20+ thousand Jews in the 1880-90s.

Monte what is this again, an answer to my request to take in account the population of Jews in Galilee?

You look everywhere but not where Palestine was:
The Acre, Nablus and Damascus districts where the Jews of Sefad, Tiberias, Acre and Haifa lived. And of course Jerusalem district which I'm still waiting to see unaltered.

C'mon You claim You have access to this book, why all the hard work to cut and link little pcitures while with the Balkan and Roman data You did it the easy way and simply copied all the table fully?

 

[montelatici]

Most scholars you are referencing did not have access to the source Ottoman census data nor could they understand it. The first accurate translation and compilation of the Ottoman censuses was performed in 1985, what I am providing information from. Plus, something published by Hebrew University must be taken with a grain of salt.

As promised, here are the top level categories. As you can discern the categories of the source material are far different from the ones of the "scholars" who did not know how to read the source census material. That alone should tell how reliable that information is.

View attachment 105964

Monte this:

is clearly not from these 2 pages:

All I asked You was to show the FULL table, including the headlines on BOTH pages and the exact years. But if we look at the two page that You've attached (above), it's clear that the left and the right pages and lines do not correspond with the lines on the left and right pages below.

Where are the headline and years I've asked You initially?

The lines don't match because it is manually scanned document and the table extends over two pages of a book that with difficulty . However I will try to do better tomorrow. However, the consolidated tables prove the point anyway.

 

[montelatici]

Now, to provide more evidence.

This is the total ethnic distribution of in the Balkans.


View attachment 105967

This the ethnic distribution of Rumelia (the Roman lands, mostly Greece).

View attachment 105968

The total distribution of religions of Ottoman Europe

View attachment 105969

The Grand total of Jews in the whole of the empire 1890:
Female Male
View attachment 105970

Out of 194,006 Jews in the 1881-93 census period 190,000 were in Europe. That leaves about 4,000 distributed through the non-European part of the empire. Obviously, census data is not 100% accurate, but you can see why it is impossible for Jerusalem to have had 20+ thousand Jews in the 1880-90s.

Now, to provide more evidence.

This is the total ethnic distribution of in the Balkans.


View attachment 105967

This the ethnic distribution of Rumelia (the Roman lands, mostly Greece).

View attachment 105968

The total distribution of religions of Ottoman Europe

View attachment 105969

The Grand total of Jews in the whole of the empire 1890:
Female Male
View attachment 105970

Out of 194,006 Jews in the 1881-93 census period 190,000 were in Europe. That leaves about 4,000 distributed through the non-European part of the empire. Obviously, census data is not 100% accurate, but you can see why it is impossible for Jerusalem to have had 20+ thousand Jews in the 1880-90s.

Monte what is this again, an answer to my request to take in account the population of Jews in Galilee?

You look everywhere but not where Palestine was:
The Acre, Nablus and Damascus districts where the Jews of Sefad, Tiberias, Acre and Haifa lived. And of course Jerusalem district which I'm still waiting to see unaltered.

C'mon You claim You have access to this book, why all the hard work to cut and link little pcitures while with the Balkan and Roman data You did it the easy way and simply copied all the table fully?

The places you mention are in the Kudus Special Region, which includes Jerusalem. There are no separate tables of the Kudus Special Region, it is a tiny entity not like the Balkans, Rumelia etc.

 

[rylah]

Monte denying the numerous scholars I've referenced with such a childish argument "they didn't know how to read the data" is telling allot.

Prof. J. McCarthy is a demograph and historian, his expertise is exactly in the late Ottoman period. He also has a honorary doctorate from a Turkish university.

Seetzen, the German explorer lived in Aleppo for 2 years for the sole purpose of learning Arabic.

Alexander Scholch is a former Professor of Modern Middle East Studies at the University of Erlangen in Germany.

Alan Dawty is a Professor of Political Science Emeritus, University of Notre Dame.

Abraham Luncz was a Russian scholar and journalist who lived in Jerusalem from the age of 14.

Cesar Famin was a French consul in the District of Damascus.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[rylah]

But let's see what data was provided by a Palestinian scholar:

Dr. Mutaz M. Qafisheh is Dean and Professor of International Law, College of Law, Hebron University, Palestine. He received a PhD in International Law from the Graduate Institute of International Studies, Geneva, and is a practicing international lawyer, advising a number of global organizations, including the UN and the PLO.

He has formerly worked as Human Rights Officer at the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in Geneva, Beirut and Ramallah; Regional Director of Penal Reform International, Middle East and North Africa, Amman; Director of Security Sector Reform, Birzeit; Director of Legal Education at Palestinian Law Schools, Al-Quds; Legal Advisor to the Palestinian Parliament; and Co-Founder of the Human Rights Program at Al-Quds-Bard Honors College, Jerusalem-New York. Mutaz has authored and edited seven books,including Palestine Membership in the United Nations: Legal and Practical Implications with Cambridge Scholars Publishing, and twenty refereed journal articles published across the globe.

The International Law Foundations of Palestinian Nationality