Who Are The Palestinains?

[amity1844]

Damn I'm good!

No you're not. But if it's all a game to you there is no point to discuss it any further, now, is there?

Ignorant you are to the real aspects of this conflict, dear poster, and ignorant you shall remain...

No, you wish this was ignorance talking, but I am very well informed, have a well balanced perspective, LOADS of good solid sources, many of them Israeli, and can run circles around you, Lipush.

 

[Lipush]

Damn I'm good!

No you're not. But if it's all a game to you there is no point to discuss it any further, now, is there?

Ignorant you are to the real aspects of this conflict, dear poster, and ignorant you shall remain...

No, you wish this was ignorance talking, but I am very well informed, have a well balanced perspective, LOADS of good solid sources, many of them Israeli, and can run circles around you, Lipush.

You said two days ago that the only thing you know about the IDF comes from "breaking the silence".

Are you trying to make fun of yourself? because if I take your previous statement seriously, then....you're either insulting my intelligence, or your own, or both. I can seriously ask you questions about the Israeli-Palestinian conlifct that will seriously embarrass you. I can do that as well.

So please, be serious.

 

[amity1844]

You said two days ago that the only thing you know about the IDF comes from "breaking the silence".

No, that is not what I said. I said that is the only source I am familiar with for Israeli soldiers. I know a decent bit about the IDF apart from that.

I can seriously ask you questions about the Israeli-Palestinian conlifct that will seriously embarrass you. I can do that as well.

So please, be serious.

Oh, I'm serious alright. Sure, is there somewhere on this forum we can go and have a public debate, just you and I, that no one else can participate in? Is the softwre set up to allow that? I think you have been reasonable enough and refrained from invective and name calling well enough that I am willing to do that, and probably we would both learn something from it.

 

[Lipush]

You said two days ago that the only thing you know about the IDF comes from "breaking the silence".

No, that is not what I said. I said that is the only source I am familiar with for Israeli soldiers. I know a decent bit about the IDF apart from that.

I can seriously ask you questions about the Israeli-Palestinian conlifct that will seriously embarrass you. I can do that as well.

So please, be serious.

Oh, I'm serious alright. Sure, is there somewhere on this forum we can go and have a public debate, just you and I, that no one else can participate in? Is the softwre set up to allow that? I think you have been reasonable enough and refrained from invective and name calling well enough that I am willing to do that, and probably we would both learn something from it.

"No, that is not what I said. I said that is the only source I am familiar with for Israeli soldiers."

That's the same as saying it's the only information you recieve about the IDF. If you only have one source you see credible or reachable, the only information you recieve will probably be from said source.

That's common sense, nothing more. So maybe I'm wrong jumping to that conclusion, but that'd probably be the same one you'd get if I told you the same thing.

Oh, I'm serious alright. Sure, is there somewhere on this forum we can go and have a public debate, just you and I, that no one else can participate in? Is the softwre set up to allow that?"

I think there was a window for that, I'm not sure. Most of the "debates" there are clashy and stupid from what I've heard. Eh.

You havn't seen my name calling moods, but that is served for really "special" posters, who've crossed the line one time too many. I can be polite if I want.

Back to the point, I think you should re-consider expending your source list. If the only information reachable is from "breaking the silence" then there is something complietely wrong and twisted with your view on the conflict. Probably not your fault, but still ,the result is clear.

 

[amity1844]

No, that is not what I said. I said that is the only source I am familiar with for Israeli soldiers."

That's the same as saying it's the only information you recieve about the IDF. If you only have one source you see credible or reachable, the only information you recieve will probably be from said source.

That's common sense, nothing more. So maybe I'm wrong jumping to that conclusion, but that'd probably be the same one you'd get if I told you the same thing.

Do you know of another website where Israeli soldiers talk about their experience? If there is one I would love to see it. But in general I think most soldiers of the world are prohibited from talking about what they do. So I don't know of another Israeli soldier site, no. If you can, point me in the direction. But acctually there have been accounts published, especially from the Irgun, Hagana, etc. that described what they did, so that counts too.

Most of what is on the forum can be clashy and stupid sometimes. Let's strive to improve. Please read the sources I have posted so far, and don't be afraid.

 

[MJB12741]

Oh now I get it. Had the Palestinians just claimed they were the direct descendents of the Lost Tribes of Israel, they would be the indigenous inhabtiants of the land & not just a bunch of squatters for generations.

Among the indigenous Palestinians WERE JEWS! Not a single theiving Muslim Palestinian among them until after the 7th cnentury AD.

The Palestinians were the people resident in Palestine. They are the indigenous people of Palestine. That is all. The reason the mandatory language is
"those who were habitually resident in Palestine" is because they were dissolving the Ottoman Empire, which had been the only political structure in Palestine for literally hundreds of years. But the people weren't Turkish. As genetics has proved, they are the descendents of Canaanites and Sea Peoples, Philistines, Assyrians and Jews, Romans, Arabians, Crusaders, many different migrations and influences. But there has always been a people present continuously on that land. They are largely Sunni Muslim, but 20 - 30% (depending on location) were Christian, and others were Druze, Bahai, Armenians, indigenous Jews, Circassians, etc. All these groups are Palestinian, most but not all were Arab.

Hee are some sources:

The Palestinian right of return - legal and moral basis:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return

And here are a couple of articles on why they left:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

And last and saddest to me, the many villages, some going back to Bible times and earlier, that were destroyed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...epopulated_during_the_1948_Palestinian_exodus

You can click on links to read the story of each individual village. These stories are compiled from not only Palestinians who were present, but also the stories of members of Haganah, Irgun, etc. about their own roles in each case. They don't deny what they did. And these villagers had very few arms. Virtually unamed and, as you will read, in many cases totally non combatant.

In the case of Deir Yassin, a village on the outskirts of Jerusalem, the Arab population had agreed with the neighboring Jewish town to support and protect each other. The villagers refuse to allow Arab militias into the town to protect them, belieiving their solidarity with their Jewish neighbors would prevent them behind harmed. So when the attack came, not a shot was fired by the villagers in resistance. The Jews from the neighboring town tried to honor their agreement and ran over, running through the streets screaming "No! No! Don't kill them!" but to no avail. Irgun, Lehi, and Palmach units were responsible for the massacre. Afterward the survivors were paraded through streets of Jerusalem and elsewhere in trucks for several days, telling Arabs to leave before the same fate would befall them. No one really knows what happened to the "survivors" so it is possible that they were executed after being driven around, but I don't think there is any proof of that yet. At any rate, no one has turned up and said "I survived the post-Deir Yassin truck ride."

I'll excuse your silly low brow epipthets, but tell you that you are exactly right otherwise. Here is the chain of events as best I understand it:

The Romans crushed the Jewish state in A.D. 70, depopulated the cities, took many people as slaves to Rome, but the majority escaped to the countryside and continued their resistance .... Masada, Bar Kochba, etc. Of course there were other peoples there at that time, too, it wasn't 100% Jewish, but pretty much.

The synagogue tradition was developed, and some of those synagogues morphed into churches as more and more Jews converted. By time of Constantine, Palestine had a Christian majority, descended from the Jewish population.

At the time of the Muslim conquest there were many conversions, and a little intermarriage, a new language and a new culture that mixed in with the old, but no wholesale migration took place. The bedouin Arabs who were the nucleus of Islamic expansion, were a very tiny population anyway and couldn't have staged a large migration.

Later admixtures have got to include the Crusaders, Turks, etc. To this day you can see blonde haired, blue eyed Palestinians, and black African Palestinians.

But the population of Palestine remained continuous throughout. Note we have father and son, mother and daughter, all the way back to Canaanite times. And Palestinians are about 80% descended from those who were Jews in Roman times. By the way, modern Jews are descended about 72% from those who were Jews in Roman times. So Palestinians are more Jewish than the modern day Jews are? No, I don't think that is the point. The lesson is about demographics and migration.

And by the way, of course straight through there was a population of Jews who never converted. These were true "Palestinian Jews." The pattern is similar to that of the Samaritans who were left behind during the Jewish Babylonian exile, and remain there today in fact, still practicing a very old form of Judaism that existed before the Babylonian exile.

And this is what genetics has now proven. There is no place for other theories at this point.

It is interesting to see the continuity. Someone made the point that the same patterns that appear on Palestinian women's embroidered dresses are seen in Canaanite handcrafts. All over you will recognize the place names of the Bible. Cana, where Jesus turned water into wine, became Kafr Kana, etc. Most of the Christian traditions native to the Levant and Palestine .... Maronite, Syriac, etc. .... use Aramaic as their religious language. It was the language spoken by Christ.

 

[Lipush]

No, that is not what I said. I said that is the only source I am familiar with for Israeli soldiers."

That's the same as saying it's the only information you recieve about the IDF. If you only have one source you see credible or reachable, the only information you recieve will probably be from said source.

That's common sense, nothing more. So maybe I'm wrong jumping to that conclusion, but that'd probably be the same one you'd get if I told you the same thing.

Do you know of another website where Israeli soldiers talk about their experience? If there is one I would love to see it. But in general I think most soldiers of the world are prohibited from talking about what they do. So I don't know of another Israeli soldier site, no. If you can, point me in the direction. But acctually there have been accounts published, especially from the Irgun, Hagana, etc. that described what they did, so that counts too.

Most of what is on the forum can be clashy and stupid sometimes. Let's strive to improve. Please read the sources I have posted so far, and don't be afraid.

"Do you know of another website where Israeli soldiers talk about their experience?"

The forums of Tapuz in Hebrew are common to hear and read stories of soldiers, The Eran organization hold forums and hotline for soldiers in distress as well. the Hehida website also offers help and many stories of IDF soldiers. All are websites in hebrew.

 

[Lipush]

No, that is not what I said. I said that is the only source I am familiar with for Israeli soldiers."

That's the same as saying it's the only information you recieve about the IDF. If you only have one source you see credible or reachable, the only information you recieve will probably be from said source.

That's common sense, nothing more. So maybe I'm wrong jumping to that conclusion, but that'd probably be the same one you'd get if I told you the same thing.

Do you know of another website where Israeli soldiers talk about their experience? If there is one I would love to see it. But in general I think most soldiers of the world are prohibited from talking about what they do. So I don't know of another Israeli soldier site, no. If you can, point me in the direction. But acctually there have been accounts published, especially from the Irgun, Hagana, etc. that described what they did, so that counts too.

Most of what is on the forum can be clashy and stupid sometimes. Let's strive to improve. Please read the sources I have posted so far, and don't be afraid.

People can tell of their experiences without telling of what the actually DO. that's not always needed. But you need to understand the most basic things of how the IDF works and how it manages. You believe you're informed enough of that?

 

[MJB12741]

Okay, perhaps what those Zionists don't understand is how they have continuously oppressed & brutalized the Palestinians since 1948 into having to becoming "freedom fighters" with terrorism.

With all your wonderful worldly wealth of knowledge & documented sources will you be so kind as to educate them to all of the Palestinian contributions to peace, mankind & civilization before 1948? 'Atta boy!



QUOTE=amity1844;9209212]

Most of the Arabs living there years ago worked for the rich Turkish landowners who owned the land. Would anyone claim that the American sharecroppers actually owned the land of the rich guy for whom they worked? It's funny this claim that the Arabs owned lots of land. The Arabs who did have property stayed put and are now citizens of Israel.

That is really blaming the victim! It is hardly the Palestinians fault that they were occupied and colonized by Turkey, and a lot of land was expropriated. But they weren't sharecroppers whatsoever. Their continuity on the land was so solid that you could tell who was from village A and who was from village B only 10 miles away by the way they were dressed!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_costume

And the reason most Palestinians left has nothing at all to do with land ownership. Whether they owned their land or not, they were uprooted and stripped of their title to the land:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internally_Displaced_Palestinians

See the other links I have already posted for a very detailed description of incidents pertaining to the Palestinian exodus, MOST of it provided by Israelis who testify to their own actions and what they witnessed during this time.[/QUOTE]

 

[amity1844]

People can tell of their experiences without telling of what the actually DO. that's not always needed. But you need to understand the most basic things of how the IDF works and how it manages. You believe you're informed enough of that?

Do you know of an independent website for Israeli soldiers, forum or otherwise? If you do I will check it out. If it is silly I'll blow it off. If it is serious I will take it seriously.

 

[Kondor3]

Sorry, that is just not right. Palestinians were never squatters. The Arab invasions of the 7th century did not result in much population transfer at all, just the arrival of a new language and culture. They are as I said. Genetics has proved this very simply and straighforward, so the debate is really at an end. I saw a series of videos on You Tube, a guy in Israel will go around and interview members of whatever group and ask them whatever question you want him to ask. It is really fascinating. He asked Israeli Jews if they believed Palestinians were "from here" and virtually every one said "yes." How could they deny it?

The Jewish community in Palestine was sometimes tiny, sometimes quite large, depending on what was going on in Europe. During times of pogroms, Spanish Inquisition, etc., an emigration would take place to Palestine. There was very little way for anyone to make a living in Palestine under the Ottomans, the Palestinians had land to work and were still pretty hungry. The Jews there were very impoverished and largely dependent on charity income from the Diaspora. They did not own agricultural land. There were mainly religious Jews who spent their days praying, almost like a monastic community.

Jewish history for the last 2000 years is truly interesting. So many good books out there I don't really need to recommend anything.

They were from "here" after they arrived "here". Read the book of Mark Twain about Israel, he didn't see the same "Palestinians" as you claim existed.

Jews were natives in Hebron until the "Palestinians" kicked them out then decided suddenly they are the natives themselves. Under 'Palestinian' villages in the north there were discovered Jewish graveyards. In the south the diggins showed the foundings of Jewish property.

The Jews of the Aliyah were owners of agricultural land, my own family among them. I don't know what history is that you think you know, but it doesn't go hand in hand with facts.

Lipush, it is the same old, same old the readers have seen for years no matter the screen name of the poster. One says the same thing, and when that one leaves, another one shows up and begins all over again. I would imagine some Boiler Room has an endless supply to take the place of the previous poster. Most of the Arabs living there years ago worked for the rich Turkish landowners who owned the land. Would anyone claim that the American sharecroppers actually owned the land of the rich guy for whom they worked? It's funny this claim that the Arabs owned lots of land. The Arabs who did have property stayed put and are now citizens of Israel.

Yep... that and a foolproof proxy IP server.

Same old shit... same old style... same old content... time and again and again.

Some of 'em are even decent English-speakers... some of 'em... ;-)

 

[amity1844]

Oh now I get it. Had the Palestinians just claimed they were the direct descendents of the Lost Tribes of Israel, they would be the indigenous inhabtiants of the land & not just a bunch of squatters for generations.

No, you don't get it. The Paletinians ARE among the descendants of the actual Jewish population of the Roman period. Bar Kochba's kids, as it were. Now I am sure if you have been to Israel you have seen enough to let you know that the Jews were not all expelled in 70AD and many stayed right there in that land. Didn't you wonder what happened to them and where they went? Well, here they are! The Palestinians! And it isn't just a coincidence that, as a friend put it, "they dress like the pictures in my New Testament." This relationship has been solidly proven by a genetic study.

 

[amity1844]

Yep... that and a foolproof proxy IP server.

Same old shit... same old style... same old content... time and again and again.

Some of 'em are even decent English-speakers... some of 'em... ;-)

The reason you keep hearing the same story over and over is because it is the truth and lots of folks know it!

Nope, I am who I say I am. A 60 year old American WASP woman. And I am honestly not in touch with any Palestinians or other Arabs right now. But I am going to remedy that. Let's see if anyone can figure out the riddle. Probably not. But never mind.

 

[Kondor3]

Oh now I get it. Had the Palestinians just claimed they were the direct descendents of the Lost Tribes of Israel, they would be the indigenous inhabtiants of the land & not just a bunch of squatters for generations.

No, you don't get it. The Paletinians ARE among the descendants of the actual Jewish population of the Roman period. Bar Kochba's kids, as it were. Now I am sure if you have been to Israel you have seen enough to let you know that the Jews were not all expelled in 70AD and many stayed right there in that land. Didn't you wonder what happened to them and where they went? Well, here they are! The Palestinians! And it isn't just a coincidence that, as a friend put it, "they dress like the pictures in my New Testament." This relationship has been solidly proven by a genetic study.

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Hebrews...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Canaanites...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Phoenicians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Phillistines...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Samarians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Sumerians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Babylonians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Akkadians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Hittites

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Assyrians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Persians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Mongols...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Bedouin...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Ethiopians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Scythians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Parthians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Turks...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Minoans...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Greeks...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Romans...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Medieval Europeans...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Egyptians...

Some Palestinians show genetic markers that identify them in-part as Berbers...

And on and on and on...

Some show very strong generic markers pointing to very recent migrations...

They're mutts?

So what?

If they're part Jewish, then they're descended from Jews who betrayed their own kind, and the faith of their fathers, to convert to Islam, rather than keep The Covenant...

Not the sort of ancestors that I'd want to brag about...

 

[amity1844]

Well, technically they converted to Christianity, but okay. Actually I think you've got the gist of it now.

Jews of the late Roman period were part of all the aforementioned groups, too. Much of the Old Testament is the story of intermarriage with other groups. And that is largely where the Palestinians got it from because they are 80% identical with Jews of the late Roman era.

And we're all mutts. Only Hitler should have any problem with that statement. Viva hybrid vigor! Down with racial purity!

 

[Kondor3]

Now? I've had the gist of it for decades.

 

[Sally]

Yep... that and a foolproof proxy IP server.

Same old shit... same old style... same old content... time and again and again.

Some of 'em are even decent English-speakers... some of 'em... ;-)

The reason you keep hearing the same story over and over is because it is the truth and lots of folks know it!

Nope, I am who I say I am. A 60 year old American WASP woman. And I am honestly not in touch with any Palestinians or other Arabs right now. But I am going to remedy that. Let's see if anyone can figure out the riddle. Probably not. But never mind.

There are other WASPs who are keeping track of all the Christians being killed in the Muslim world, and they actually would wonder about you. The real reason that you and yours repeat the same old stuff ad nauseam on forums is because you think by repeating it, you hope that the viewers will finally take it as the truth. To me, this is just like what Goebbels said.

 

[amity1844]

Yep... that and a foolproof proxy IP server.

Same old shit... same old style... same old content... time and again and again.

Some of 'em are even decent English-speakers... some of 'em... ;-)

The reason you keep hearing the same story over and over is because it is the truth and lots of folks know it!

Nope, I am who I say I am. A 60 year old American WASP woman. And I am honestly not in touch with any Palestinians or other Arabs right now. But I am going to remedy that. Let's see if anyone can figure out the riddle. Probably not. But never mind.

There are other WASPs who are keeping track of all the Christians being killed in the Muslim world, and they actually would wonder about you. The real reason that you and yours repeat the same old stuff ad nauseam on forums is because you think by repeating it, you hope that the viewers will finally take it as the truth. To me, this is just like what Goebbels said.

Yes, you're right, I do think people will believe it. I think some people's worldview is shaking a bit right now. But I just got back into this, though. I haven't been on any other forums posting on this issue.

I could blame myself for that and say "well, I could have had a constructive effect if I had been diligent." But it is never too late. I know I am a force for good and I could argue the entire Israeli Ministry of Disinformation under the table. But I do it with love in my sad little heart for both sides, and a very sincere desire to bring this whole nasty conflict to an end.

 

[MJB12741]

Thank you for acknowledging my point that the Jews were native Palestinians. No Islam at all until the 7th cnetury AD. Now do you understand that with the exception of whatever small amount of Jews may have converted to Islam the rest of the Muslim Palestinians are just a bunch of squatters for generations with no titles or deeds to their stolen land whatsoever?

Oh now I get it. Had the Palestinians just claimed they were the direct descendents of the Lost Tribes of Israel, they would be the indigenous inhabtiants of the land & not just a bunch of squatters for generations.

No, you don't get it. The Paletinians ARE among the descendants of the actual Jewish population of the Roman period. Bar Kochba's kids, as it were. Now I am sure if you have been to Israel you have seen enough to let you know that the Jews were not all expelled in 70AD and many stayed right there in that land. Didn't you wonder what happened to them and where they went? Well, here they are! The Palestinians! And it isn't just a coincidence that, as a friend put it, "they dress like the pictures in my New Testament." This relationship has been solidly proven by a genetic study.

 

[amity1844]

THAT was your point? That Jews are native Palestinians? Oh heck yeah I acknowledge it. What have I been writing all day? Sometimes I wonder do you folks actually read? I do not agree with any right of return, though.

NO, the Palestinians are NOT squatters. The ancient Jews are the ancestors of the modern Palestinians. (sigh...)