White man shoots innocent black teen....

[The Gadfly]

Technically, it is a confrontation, if one goes with actual definitions. Confrontations are commonplace for everyone who has contact with others. Combat is another situation, though.

A confrontation can be almost anything with face to face contact no?

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Obama is half black half white, and Zimmerman is half white half Hispanic, not rocket science.

But obama identifies himself as black isn't that correct?

Yes, so? if he tried to say he was white how would that fly?

I don't know maybe he should try it sometime.
However, This was the comment that I directed my comment too.

Looks awfully pale to me and apparently to the cops, too.

Zimmerman doesn't look white he looks Hispanic.

 

[Si modo]

I have concerns about Martin being found face down with his arms underneath his body. If he was on top attacking, as zimmerman apparently claimed (and so many here argue) and with zimmerman on his back, how DID Martin end up in that position? If zimmerman fired the shot as he wrestled --- with Martin on top, it seems like the kid would have fallen backward (face up) or to the side. If he fell down on top of zimmerman, then he still would have been on his back or side as zimmerman pushed the body off himself. The only way I can see how he ended up in that position is if zimmerman shot him from behind. What am I missing here?

Emma, this may help, From my post #895:


Martin was found face down; was he shot in the back? There is a common misconception, (expressed by some posters here) that a person shot from the front will always fall backwards. so that if Martin fell on his face as found, he must have been shot from behind. Having shot a considerable number of men in combat, and seen even more shot in that situation, I can tell you that a man shot from the front may just as easily fall forward, and a man shot from behind can just as easily fall backward.. Sometimes an individual shot from in front will be thrown violently backward( the result of a reaction of the nervous system to the impact of the bullet, I'm told) but that does not happen all or even most of the time in reality, no matter what you may have seen in the movies. Here, we have to have the autopsy findings (which should be conclusive on this point). The fact that Martin fell face down proves absolutely nothing. Still no proof for either self-defense, or manslaughter.

In addition,the autopsy will show us the path of the bullet, which will also show the relative positions of the two individuals at the moment the shot was fired. As for arterial blood spray, that would depend on where the bullet hit Martin; it could be considerable, or virtually non-existent. Bottom line, we need the autopsy findings to be sure of anything.

Thank you. I don't doubt for a minute that a person can fall in any direction when shot. What's being held here is that zimmerman was on his back, being attacked by Martin (grass noted on the back of zimmerman's jacket). It seems from what the witnesses have said, the shot came as they were wrestling about. That's where I have a hard time seeing how Martin ended up face down with his arms underneath his body.

I didn't hear that report, but if that is the case, it was likely that Martin was leaning forward at the time of the shot. So, falling on his face is going to happen. And, if that is the case, Martin's arms were likely in front of him when the shot happened.

If that is the case......

 

[Emma]

Gadfly, his weapon was a 9mm Kel Tek semi auto handgun (per the police report). Of what you know of this weapon and the damage it can do, how easy would it be for the pathologist to determine entry / exit ?

 

[Crackerjack]

I read they tested Trayvon's dead body for alcohol and drugs who is dead but not Zimmerman, what a huge joke.

If they had no probable cause to believe he was under the influence, they can't test him without violating his Constitutional rights.

But they still had the right to test the boys dead body? why?

Corpses don't have rights.

 

[Si modo]

A confrontation can be almost anything with face to face contact no?

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

I don't know. The jury is going to have to figure that out with the independent evidence (eg. the witness that says they saw Zimmerman on his back (the kid walking his dog, I believe), any wounds Zimmerman may have had, any unexplained bruises Martin may have had, etc.).

 

[Emma]

A confrontation can be almost anything with face to face contact no?

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

If Zimmerman did grab Martin, that's battery. I seriously doubt we'll ever know for sure, however.

You know that there are bad guys out there who target kids and teens. Yeah, Martin was 17, but by all appearance was a slightly-built young man, and Zimmerman was much larger. Who's to say that Martin didn't feel intimidated and frightened because this guy was watching and following him? Who's to say that Martin didn't think Zimmerman was out to rob or harm him from the start? That seems to be what his girlfriend indicated in describing her call with him.

 

[Amelia]

But obama identifies himself as black isn't that correct?

Yes, so? if he tried to say he was white how would that fly?

I don't know maybe he should try it sometime.
However, This was the comment that I directed my comment too.

Looks awfully pale to me and apparently to the cops, too.

Zimmerman doesn't look white he looks Hispanic.

He looks like a redneck to this here Okie.

The cop called him white.

Why so many people are so good at identifying Hispanics and not considering them white is a little bit alarming to me.

What does it matter whether he is "Hispanic" or white? Whatever his "race", he had blacks in that community afraid to walk around their own neighborhood because of his profiling activities.


His self-assumed law enforcement persona seems to have had a lot of people buffaloed into letting his sickness grow unchecked, until it ended in this tragedy the Martins are living with now.

 

[Ravi]

I can tell you one thing, I wish Al Sharpton had stayed away from Florida. If any of these rallies get overheated it is going to totally suck.

 

[Crackerjack]

well I'll tell you what,this **** will get his,in spades.

Dem messicans is takin' our jobs! We whites is posed ta be the only ones killin' minorities around heah!

 

[Emma]

Yes, so? if he tried to say he was white how would that fly?

I don't know maybe he should try it sometime.
However, This was the comment that I directed my comment too.

Looks awfully pale to me and apparently to the cops, too.

Zimmerman doesn't look white he looks Hispanic.

He looks like a redneck to this here Okie.

The cop called him white.

The Hispanic officer called him white.

Frankly, I don't see why it matters.

 

[uptownlivin90]

A confrontation can be almost anything with face to face contact no?

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

I've been saying that this entire time. Here's the thing though:

I honestly think it's too late in the game to ever truly determine WHO made it physical beyond the shadow of a doubt.

We can speculate and we can do so based on the situation and on the records of both individuals. Trayvon had a clear record, evidenced by the fact that police could not identify him because his fingerprints weren't in the system. It's hard for me to assume he initiated contact.

In the long run though, evidence is too stale. Even if there was a witness who saw the whole thing, it still might be written off, the investigation took to long and the authorities didn't seem interested in truly determining who actually initiated the "combat" if combat ever occurred.

It's been my opinion that Zimmerman will walk free, since I first saw this case. It was set up that way. One thing I'll say about Zimmerman, he's obviously not stupid. He knew exactly what to say and what not to say.

 

[High_Gravity]

But obama identifies himself as black isn't that correct?

Yes, so? if he tried to say he was white how would that fly?

I don't know maybe he should try it sometime.However, This was the comment that I directed my comment too.

Looks awfully pale to me and apparently to the cops, too.

Zimmerman doesn't look white he looks Hispanic.

Well I am half Black and half white like our President and I can tell you that doesn't work, if Obama tried saying he is a white man people would say he is an idiot. In this society you are judged by what you look like, if you are half black/half white and look Black, you will be treated as such, same with Zimmerman, he is not white.

 

[High_Gravity]

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

I've been saying that this entire time. Here's the thing though:

I honestly think it's too late in the game to ever truly determine WHO made it physical beyond the shadow of a doubt.

We can speculate and we can do so based on the situation and on the records of both individuals. Trayvon had a clear record, evidenced by the fact that police could not identify him because his fingerprints weren't in the system. It's hard for me to assume he initiated contact.

In the long run though, evidence is too stale. Even if there was a witness who saw the whole thing, it still might be written off, the investigation took to long and the authorities didn't seem interested in truly determining who actually initiated the "combat" if combat ever occurred.

It's been my opinion that Zimmerman will walk free, since I first saw this case. It was set up that way. One thing I'll say about Zimmerman, he's obviously not stupid. He knew exactly what to say and what not to say.

This is the same state where Casey Anthony walked, I also believe Zimmerman will walk free.

 

[Peach]

Yes, so? if he tried to say he was white how would that fly?

I don't know maybe he should try it sometime.
However, This was the comment that I directed my comment too.

Looks awfully pale to me and apparently to the cops, too.

Zimmerman doesn't look white he looks Hispanic.

He looks like a redneck to this here Okie.

The cop called him white.

Why so many people are so good at identifying Hispanics and not considering them white is a little bit alarming to me.

What does it matter whether he is "Hispanic" or white? Whatever his "race", he had blacks in that community afraid to walk around their own neighborhood because of his profiling activities.


His self-assumed law enforcement persona seems to have had a lot of people buffaloed into letting his sickness grow unchecked, until it ended in this tragedy the Martins are living with now.

THAT is the problem, and no investigation at the scene. IF he was allowed to keep his firearm AFTER the killing, the "no confidence" vote of the local commission is understandable. THEY called in the Feds also.

 

[Si modo]

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

I've been saying that this entire time. Here's the thing though:

I honestly think it's too late in the game to ever truly determine WHO made it physical beyond the shadow of a doubt.

We can speculate and we can do so based on the situation and on the records of both individuals. Trayvon had a clear record, evidenced by the fact that police could not identify him because his fingerprints weren't in the system. It's hard for me to assume he initiated contact.

In the long run though, evidence is too stale. Even if there was a witness who saw the whole thing, it still might be written off, the investigation took to long and the authorities didn't seem interested in truly determining who actually initiated the "combat" if combat ever occurred.

It's been my opinion that Zimmerman will walk free, since I first saw this case. It was set up that way. One thing I'll say about Zimmerman, he's obviously not stupid. He knew exactly what to say and what not to say.

I'm guessing that is the case as well. He's a wannabe copper and self-appointed neighborhood watch dude. He lived for this stuff - looked for shit where there was none because that fulfilled his apparent sad and pathetic life. So, I'm guessing he knew the law quite well.

 

[uptownlivin90]

Pretty much, as long as there is some difference of views.

My first boss said something to me that sticks in my head: Confrontation is unavoidable, combat is a choice.

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

If Zimmerman did grab Martin, that's battery. I seriously doubt we'll ever know for sure, however.

You know that there are bad guys out there who target kids and teens. Yeah, Martin was 17, but by all appearance was a slightly-built young man, and Zimmerman was much larger. Who's to say that Martin didn't feel intimidated and frightened because this guy was watching and following him? Who's to say that Martin didn't think Zimmerman was out to rob or harm him from the start? That seems to be what his girlfriend indicated in describing her call with him.

Exactly why it's not smart to stalk people and try to take justice into your own hands being a one man vigilante show.

The sad thing is, something deep in me is absolutely sure that is what happened. What scares me is thinking what I might have done having put myself in that exact situation, especially when I was 17. Scary to think this very well could have been me.

 

[Peach]

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

If Zimmerman did grab Martin, that's battery. I seriously doubt we'll ever know for sure, however.

You know that there are bad guys out there who target kids and teens. Yeah, Martin was 17, but by all appearance was a slightly-built young man, and Zimmerman was much larger. Who's to say that Martin didn't feel intimidated and frightened because this guy was watching and following him? Who's to say that Martin didn't think Zimmerman was out to rob or harm him from the start? That seems to be what his girlfriend indicated in describing her call with him.

Exactly why it's not smart to stalk people and try to take justice into your own hands being a one man vigilante show.

The sad thing is, something deep in me is absolutely sure that is what happened. What scares me is thinking what I might have done having put myself in that exact situation, especially when I was 17. Scary to think this very well could have been me.

Going to a convenience store to get candy & bottled tea can happen every day, to anyone. It is NOT every day that police do not investigate a killing.

 

[High_Gravity]

Right on target (pardon the pun). See, we can discuss this like sane adults, if we try. Now, the key words Si, are "combat is a choice". Somebody had to make a decision to take the verbal confrontation here (which we know occurred) and make it PHYSICAL. The question now is, WHO did that. Did Zimmerman grab Martin, or did Martin strike Zimmerman first ?

If Zimmerman did grab Martin, that's battery. I seriously doubt we'll ever know for sure, however.

You know that there are bad guys out there who target kids and teens. Yeah, Martin was 17, but by all appearance was a slightly-built young man, and Zimmerman was much larger. Who's to say that Martin didn't feel intimidated and frightened because this guy was watching and following him? Who's to say that Martin didn't think Zimmerman was out to rob or harm him from the start? That seems to be what his girlfriend indicated in describing her call with him.

Exactly why it's not smart to stalk people and try to take justice into your own hands being a one man vigilante show.

The sad thing is, something deep in me is absolutely sure that is what happened. What scares me is thinking what I might have done having put myself in that exact situation, especially when I was 17. Scary to think this very well could have been me.

Thats why so many feelings are being brought out with this case, alot of people can put themselves in Trayvon's shoes.

 

[uptownlivin90]

If Zimmerman did grab Martin, that's battery. I seriously doubt we'll ever know for sure, however.

You know that there are bad guys out there who target kids and teens. Yeah, Martin was 17, but by all appearance was a slightly-built young man, and Zimmerman was much larger. Who's to say that Martin didn't feel intimidated and frightened because this guy was watching and following him? Who's to say that Martin didn't think Zimmerman was out to rob or harm him from the start? That seems to be what his girlfriend indicated in describing her call with him.

Exactly why it's not smart to stalk people and try to take justice into your own hands being a one man vigilante show.

The sad thing is, something deep in me is absolutely sure that is what happened. What scares me is thinking what I might have done having put myself in that exact situation, especially when I was 17. Scary to think this very well could have been me.

Going to a convenience store to get candy & bottled tea can happen every day, to anyone. It is NOT every day that police do not investigate a killing.

I'm perfectly in agreement with you. I have the same questions you do...

I'm just saying we've seen this kind of thing play out before. The evidence might not be there to convict him in the court of law and the idiot might get away free with bloody hands.