Which Side Are You On?

[Daniyel]

Let's get this straight here and now. Yes, the United Nations partitioned Palestine and technically speaking the Zionists did not steal the land they occupy. However, was the partition plan put to a vote? No, it was not. Therefore, the Palestinian people, as a whole, had no say in the matter and from their perspective, their land was taken from them by force. So the situation is such; to a Zionist, they cleverly worked the system to get what they wanted (which is always the case) and to Palestinian, 'they was robbed' an now having been robbed they are being murdered because hey want their land back.

Its very interesting you're mentioning the partition plan, the partition plan originally gave the Palestinians 80% of Israel, giving the Zionists 20% of land in the Israel[Denied by the Palestinians], as a military man I believe you have at least the very basic military view about control and defense..anyway I'll relate to the 50-50 partition plan, to be clear I'm talking about this.

Spoiler: map

-Military view.
How is it possible to secure such area? assuming all neighbors would be peaceful and supportive.

The partition plan was denied by the Palestinians, like any other offers ever made [except Oslo]
Every Arab leader in history keep trying to achieve what offered to his previous leader that denied.
None of the land was taken from the Palestinians, it was taken from Egypt/Jordan/Syria, the Palestinians -not very bright and modern- didn't try to negotiate or say anything about Jordan/Egypt/Syria - they instead used them to attack Israel, and you can also see that none of the Palestinians living as refugees for decades in Jordan and Egypt ever care to claim a state, they did try to violently take over Jordan or Egypt but never tried to negotiate as they found violence the solution for all their problems, I do believe violence solve everything but I take it as the last resort (this is my perspective) - and even today you can see for yourself how they try to violently take over Gaza(did) the West Bank (Hamas Planned 'Intifada' to seize the West Bank- | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum and many other attempts in the past..Sorry we're winning so bad.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Thank you Lipush because your comment exemplifies and demonstrates everything wrong with Zionism and everything which is wrong about Israel. I wrote the following for a different thread, but I am reposting it here because it works so well answering the tyranny lovers and pseudo Christians who support Zionism and Israel. Enjoy!

According to the Old Covenant, if you obey God's laws and commandments, he will bless you with all the good things in life. In contrast, disobey God. and you are in deep and serious trouble. In other words, obey God and he is on your side, disobey him and he is your worst enemy. This is why we have all this talk of about God being on someone's or a nation's side. It is a integral and fundamental concept of Zionist Judaism and those who subscribe to it are either Zionist Jews or Christians who do not understand their own religion. I find it totally incomprehensible that so many Christians support Zionism and Israel when by doing so the are supporting people who believe that Christians and everybody else are second rate human beings (Goyims). Its kind of like a black slave acknowledging that he should be a slave because white people are better than him.

According to the New Covenant a Christian has a personal relationship with God the primary basis of which is LOVE. God has no favorites and loves us equally whether we sin or not. He abhors the sin, not the person. The only thing he asks in return is our love for him and our fellow man. Therefore, with the Christian God there is no taking sides, there is no this land is your land because I gave it to you, there is no I can kill you because you are not of my religion, there is no I can lie or take advantage of you because you are not Jewish, and there definitely no I a better than you because God chose me over you. All these things are aspects of Zionistic Judaism and this is why Christians and Americans should not support the state of Israel. Israel exemplifies the very worst aspect of Judaism because the its existence is based upon the premise that Jews should have a homeland of their own because they are God's chosen people and being chosen their love, loyalty, and respect only extends to a fellow Jew; the rest of us being Goyims (*******). Not all Jews think this way, but the Zionists certainly do.

In conclusion, your devotion and absurdly ridiculous devotion to Israel is no different than the devotion and absurdly ridiculous devotion that the Nazis had for Germany. History indeed does repeat itself. The Palestinian people are the new Jews of the 21st century, but instead of using ovens to get rid of them, Israel uses bombs and bullets.

That is such a load of crap. Christians may believe that they are "the Elect of G-d", and Muslims may believe that they are "the True Believers" as opposed to the Infidels, but we Jews believe that all people were created in the image of G-d. Unlike the other religions I just mentioned, Jews don't believe that all other people will roast in Hell for eternity, but that all good people get to go to Heaven. Whereas the Muslims have just expelled Christians from parts of Iraq and are busy killing Muslims of other sects, we treat all people with dignity and respect. It is the Christians who have subjected our people to 2,000 years of pogroms, expulsions, inquisitions, blood libels, massacres, and the Holocaust, but you accuse US of prejudice because of the word Goyim (which only means "Nations")!! G-d, in the Hebrew Bible at least, says, "are only the Hebrews My children? Are not the Assyrians and Ethiopians also My children?" G-d sent the Prophet Jonah to Nineveh to warn them to repent. In your view, He would've just let them die. Do you think a Jewish shopkeeper would tend to his Jewish customers with honesty but not his Gentile customers? If someone asks me for charity on the street, do you think I ask what religion he is? You have a very skewed vision of Jews, and you should go back to the pages of the Merchant of Venice. Don't try to mask your anti-Semitism by calling yourself an anti-Zionist.

 

[irosie91]

Thank you Lipush because your comment exemplifies and demonstrates everything wrong with Zionism and everything which is wrong about Israel. I wrote the following for a different thread, but I am reposting it here because it works so well answering the tyranny lovers and pseudo Christians who support Zionism and Israel. Enjoy!

According to the Old Covenant, if you obey God's laws and commandments, he will bless you with all the good things in life. In contrast, disobey God. and you are in deep and serious trouble. In other words, obey God and he is on your side, disobey him and he is your worst enemy. This is why we have all this talk of about God being on someone's or a nation's side. It is a integral and fundamental concept of Zionist Judaism and those who subscribe to it are either Zionist Jews or Christians who do not understand their own religion. I find it totally incomprehensible that so many Christians support Zionism and Israel when by doing so the are supporting people who believe that Christians and everybody else are second rate human beings (Goyims). Its kind of like a black slave acknowledging that he should be a slave because white people are better than him.

According to the New Covenant a Christian has a personal relationship with God the primary basis of which is LOVE. God has no favorites and loves us equally whether we sin or not. He abhors the sin, not the person. The only thing he asks in return is our love for him and our fellow man. Therefore, with the Christian God there is no taking sides, there is no this land is your land because I gave it to you, there is no I can kill you because you are not of my religion, there is no I can lie or take advantage of you because you are not Jewish, and there definitely no I a better than you because God chose me over you. All these things are aspects of Zionistic Judaism and this is why Christians and Americans should not support the state of Israel. Israel exemplifies the very worst aspect of Judaism because the its existence is based upon the premise that Jews should have a homeland of their own because they are God's chosen people and being chosen their love, loyalty, and respect only extends to a fellow Jew; the rest of us being Goyims (*******). Not all Jews think this way, but the Zionists certainly do.

In conclusion, your devotion and absurdly ridiculous devotion to Israel is no different than the devotion and absurdly ridiculous devotion that the Nazis had for Germany. History indeed does repeat itself. The Palestinian people are the new Jews of the 21st century, but instead of using ovens to get rid of them, Israel uses bombs and bullets.

Citizenal-----so far as your "understanding" of your particular
brand of Christianity-------I have no comment. Your "understanding" of the "bible"---in this case being the "old
testament" does not exist nor does your "understanding" of Judaism and Zionism. I am not sure why it is an issue for you. Do you discuss the politics of India as
BASED on the GITA??? Do you discuss the politics of
Saudi Arabia as based on the Koran?. If there is something you want to know about Judaism----ask a jew.
I learned about islam from muslims and about Christianity from Christians-------and a tiny bit about Hinduism from hindus. ----------you post as if your entire understanding of
history and religion came from "classic comics"

 

[Phoenall]

We all have a right to defend ourselves and indeed, America should come to the aid of any nation being invaded by another. However, no matter how offensive rocket attacks are, this is not the point. The point is that we did not come to the aid of the Palestinians when, initially, they were being attacked by the Israelis, so now we feel justified in helping the Israelis when they are being attacked by the Arabs when all they are doing is futilely trying to get back what was stolen from them in the first place.

Its like when a bully steals a kids lunch money when no one was watching. Then later, the victim tries to get his money back from the bully and gets arrested for attempted robbery. Yes, Hamas is wrong, but they also have right on their side, the right to protect and fight for what belongs to them.

Oh I forgot, the UN said its okay for the bully to steal the kids money. In this case, I really feel sorry for lousy thieving kid and hope he gets what's coming to him.

So when were the Palestinians being attacked by the Israelis.

What does belong to them that the owned outright and had land deeds to

As in when the UN claims that Israel bombed a school when the final evidence shows that the school was never targeted.

We all know that the UN is the bully and that hamas are the gang of kids in with the bully and tell the tales to make the bully get mad.

 

[Phoenall]

The heart of the problem with Israel: The mass expulsion of the Palestinian people

The heart of the problem with Israel: The mass expulsion of the Palestinian people | Mondoweiss

Yet history shows that this was done by the arab league to clear the way for the arab armies. So it cant be laid at Israel's feet.

 

[irosie91]

Yet history shows that this was done by the arab league to clear the way for the arab armies. So it cant be laid at Israel's feet.

I think a big problem on this messageboard is the misuse of
words. "EXPULSION" does not include people running
from arenas of war. There were not actual EXPULSIONS---
of arabs from Israel-----AND--there were very few actual EXPULSIONS of jews from arab countries in the 1940s and 50s
There are lots of
SUDANESE Christians in Israel-----they were not EXPELLED
either-----and the jews were not "EXPELLED" from Germany. In the course of arab galvanized violence in
1947---and for a few years-----lots of arabs moved-----and
lots of jews also moved. Sudanese Christians ESCAPED---
THE STENCH OF SHARIAH FILTH ----and genocide---in
sudan. Historically----jews generally ESCAPED from
meccaist filth------they were only infrequently actually
"expelled" Lets try to use words with some precision

 

[citizenal]

Citizenal-----so far as your "understanding" of your particular
brand of Christianity-------I have no comment. Your "understanding" of the "bible"---in this case being the "old
testament" does not exist nor does your "understanding" of Judaism and Zionism. I am not sure why it is an issue for you. Do you discuss the politics of India as
BASED on the GITA??? Do you discuss the politics of
Saudi Arabia as based on the Koran?. If there is something you want to know about Judaism----ask a jew.
I learned about islam from muslims and about Christianity from Christians-------and a tiny bit about Hinduism from hindus. ----------you post as if your entire understanding of
history and religion came from "classic comics"

I agree that my opinions and posturing are out of sync with most commonly held beliefs and there are a number of reasons for this. First of all, most commonly held beliefs are the result of hidden agendas and propaganda. This being the case, when I am told something, if it does not stand the tests of reason, logic, and being factual, I reject it and strive to construct a scenario which is reasonable, logical, and factual. Granted, I could be wrong, but I take pride in the fact that I am right most of the time. And of this I am certain, nothing I believe or hold to be true is the product of wishful thinking or self-serving delusion. I agonize over what I believe to be true far too much for this to be the case. Point of fact, I spend far too much time wishing I was wrong.

 

[citizenal]

I am sick and tired of all the rhetoric and posturing on this thread which adds up to nothing and is a complete waste of time, so here’s the deal in a nutshell:

The pertinent question here is do the Palestinian people have the same rights in Israel as the Jews? The answer to this question, as I am sure we will all agree, is a great big NO. And the answer being a great big NO means that all Americans and all Christians should not condone or support the state of Israel. If they do, then just as sure as the Sun rises in the East, they are hypocrites because both Christian and American values preclude condoning the establishment of differing rights among human beings. For this same reason, those holding dual citizenship with the nations in question are also hypocrites. And also for this same reason, Israel is a rogue nation and will continue to be one unless it wakes up and realizes the foundation upon which it rests is injustice.

Now that the obvious truth is on the table; which side are you on?

 

[Daniyel]

I am sick and tired of all the rhetoric and posturing on this thread which adds up to nothing and is a complete waste of time, so here’s the deal in a nutshell:

The pertinent question here is do the Palestinian people have the same rights in Israel as the Jews? The answer to this question, as I am sure we will all agree, is a great big NO. And the answer being a great big NO means that all Americans and all Christians should not condone or support the state of Israel. If they do, then just as sure as the Sun rises in the East, they are hypocrites because both Christian and American values preclude condoning the establishment of differing rights among human beings. For this same reason, those holding dual citizenship with the nations in question are also hypocrites. And also for this same reason, Israel is a rogue nation and will continue to be one unless it wakes up and realizes the foundation upon which it rests is injustice.

Now that the obvious truth is on the table; which side are you on?

@citizenal The entire post you made is wrong.
ISRAELI ARABS people have the same rights in Israel as the Jews? The answer to this question is a great big YES, they also have MORE RIGHTS THEN JEWS!
The Palestinians, The Jordanians, The Egyptians, The Iranians, The Syrians, The French, The British, The American, The Chinese are not Israelis, PERIOD.
You mix between different subjects
This is how you SHOULD ask the question properly:
Does the French people have the same rights in the US? NO THEY DON'T.

 

[irosie91]

I agree that my opinions and posturing are out of sync with most commonly held beliefs and there are a number of reasons for this. First of all, most commonly held beliefs are the result of hidden agendas and propaganda. This being the case, when I am told something, if it does not stand the tests of reason, logic, and being factual, I reject it and strive to construct a scenario which is reasonable, logical, and factual. Granted, I could be wrong, but I take pride in the fact that I am right most of the time. And of this I am certain, nothing I believe or hold to be true is the product of wishful thinking or self-serving delusion. I agonize over what I believe to be true far too much for this to be the case. Point of fact, I spend far too much time wishing I was wrong.

Citizenal----------your "reasoning" -----is of a kind I sometimes
associate with hysterical women. (I am female---so it is ok for me to say it) "IT IS TRUE BECAUSE 'I FEEL' it is
TRUE" That which you believe (or FEEL) you gleaned from your reading of the 'old testament' is, very
simply, nonsense. In order to get any level of understanding of OLD writings------you need to know a bit of the original language and the meaning of its colloquial or poetic usages. Even then it is a bit tough----but YOU do
not stand a chance. I read the GITA -----is that supposed
to indicate that I KNOW HINDUISM? (well----actually I
don't) You do seem to know some of the accepted dogma
of some Christian sect. Feel free to ask----I know a bit---and there are some people here who know LOTS more

 

[Challenger]

I stand with the oppressed against the oppressor, the victim against the perpetrator; I stand with truth and justice. Cheesy maybe, but that's the way it is. I've always been inspired by Martin Niemoller's poem,

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

 

[Daniyel]

I stand with the oppressed against the oppressor, the victim against the perpetrator; I stand with truth and justice. Cheesy maybe, but that's the way it is. I've always been inspired by Martin Niemoller's poem,

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

You can simply state "I stand with Hamas, Fatah, PLO, PIJ, Hezbullah, etc."

 

[citizenal]

@citizenal The entire post you made is wrong.
ISRAELI ARABS people have the same rights in Israel as the Jews? The answer to this question is a great big YES, they also have MORE RIGHTS THEN JEWS!
The Palestinians, The Jordanians, The Egyptians, The Iranians, The Syrians, The French, The British, The American, The Chinese are not Israelis, PERIOD.
You mix between different subjects
This is how you SHOULD ask the question properly:
Does the French people have the same rights in the US? NO THEY DON'T.

Daniyel: You should apply for the job of Minister of Propaganda for the state of Israel. You would do well in this position.

In any case, chew on the following! In Israel, Jews enjoy the right of return. In keeping with this so called right, the Palestinians enjoy the right of being evicted from the homes they lived in all their lives; the very same homes lived in by their forebears for generations.

Obviously, I have mixed this subject up. Its something I do instinctively! This being the case, please watch the following video and this should clear things up for you.

 

[citizenal]

Citizenal----------your "reasoning" -----is of a kind I sometimes
associate with hysterical women. (I am female---so it is ok for me to say it) "IT IS TRUE BECAUSE 'I FEEL' it is
TRUE" That which you believe (or FEEL) you gleaned from your reading of the 'old testament' is, very
simply, nonsense. In order to get any level of understanding of OLD writings------you need to know a bit of the original language and the meaning of its colloquial or poetic usages. Even then it is a bit tough----but YOU do
not stand a chance. I read the GITA -----is that supposed
to indicate that I KNOW HINDUISM? (well----actually I
don't) You do seem to know some of the accepted dogma
of some Christian sect. Feel free to ask----I know a bit---and there are some people here who know LOTS more

I have a minute or two, please tell me all you know.

 

[irosie91]

your video is meaningless citizenal -----gypsies who camped
out at streams and infields in Great Britian do not own land either----in fact Bedouins in Saudi Arabia do not even own
the land upon which they lived for Millenia-------gee you are stupid. My own husband was born in a land----once owned by jews----then the pigs and dogs of mecca invaded------at that
point land ownership by jews was ABOLISHED for the next 1200 years and to this day. Is that fact not interesting ---there
was a time----for quite awhile when land ownership by jews was ALSO ABOLISHED------in the land you call Palestine ---more than 1000 years------
There are still shariah cesspits in which land ownership by jews is OUTLAWED-------despite the fact that jews once lived
there for more than 1000 years. Try to balance your thinking -----land is not being confiscated from arab OWNERS------by Israel. It is a fact that very very little land is actually owned by those you call "Palestinians"--------
there are no "squatters rights" over there

 

[Daniyel]

Daniyel: You should apply for the job of Minister of Propaganda for the state of Israel. You would do well in this position.

In any case, chew on the following! In Israel, Jews enjoy the right of return. In keeping with this so called right, the Palestinians enjoy the right of being evicted from the homes they lived in all their lives; the very same homes lived in by their forebears for generations.

Obviously, I have mixed this subject up. Its something I do instinctively! This being the case, please watch the following video and this should clear things up for you.

@citizenal
Unlike you, I don't have to watch videos to know what's going on in Israel.
I'm ex border policeman and I'm very familiar with the law, politics, and policies in Israel, additionaly I'm a Jew and I do have many friends of other races from Arabs to Druze, so I think you should hear me out.
The right of return is the ONLY Jews right for the reason Israel was established to be a shelter for the Jews, as a liberal I think you should support it because its clear to everyone what happens to the Jews without a state.
Israel is also much more minority-friendly, Arabs are not law-bound to contribute to Israel (National Service/IDF) do you know that? Also all minorities enjoy favoring discrimination for Jobs, Scholarships,Wealth, and tax do you know that also?

Palestinians are not Israelis, and not Jews, but so does the French, the Italians, the Americans, the Turkish and basically everyone who doesn't deserve the benefits of being Israelis and I'm not even mentioning the duties.
So what can you tell me about Israel that is don't know again?

 

[irosie91]

I have a minute or two, please tell me all you know.

I know lots-----things I have LEARNED or OBSERVED----
I do not invent reality by "FEELING" it, but I have
encountered many people who do----such people
are called psychotic. -----sometimes the psychosis is
FUNCTIONAL-----which really means---"we are not sure
we know why they are nuts" -----sometimes it is
"Organic" which means-----we figured out why----
like------they got SYPHILIS of the brain. HIV can
also produce ----in some case----an organic psychosis.

 

[Lipush]

Thank you Lipush because your comment exemplifies and demonstrates everything wrong with Zionism and everything which is wrong about Israel. I wrote the following for a different thread, but I am reposting it here because it works so well answering the tyranny lovers and pseudo Christians who support Zionism and Israel. Enjoy!

According to the Old Covenant, if you obey God's laws and commandments, he will bless you with all the good things in life. In contrast, disobey God. and you are in deep and serious trouble. In other words, obey God and he is on your side, disobey him and he is your worst enemy. This is why we have all this talk of about God being on someone's or a nation's side. It is a integral and fundamental concept of Zionist Judaism and those who subscribe to it are either Zionist Jews or Christians who do not understand their own religion. I find it totally incomprehensible that so many Christians support Zionism and Israel when by doing so the are supporting people who believe that Christians and everybody else are second rate human beings (Goyims). Its kind of like a black slave acknowledging that he should be a slave because white people are better than him.

According to the New Covenant a Christian has a personal relationship with God the primary basis of which is LOVE. God has no favorites and loves us equally whether we sin or not. He abhors the sin, not the person. The only thing he asks in return is our love for him and our fellow man. Therefore, with the Christian God there is no taking sides, there is no this land is your land because I gave it to you, there is no I can kill you because you are not of my religion, there is no I can lie or take advantage of you because you are not Jewish, and there definitely no I a better than you because God chose me over you. All these things are aspects of Zionistic Judaism and this is why Christians and Americans should not support the state of Israel. Israel exemplifies the very worst aspect of Judaism because the its existence is based upon the premise that Jews should have a homeland of their own because they are God's chosen people and being chosen their love, loyalty, and respect only extends to a fellow Jew; the rest of us being Goyims (*******). Not all Jews think this way, but the Zionists certainly do.

In conclusion, your devotion and absurdly ridiculous devotion to Israel is no different than the devotion and absurdly ridiculous devotion that the Nazis had for Germany. History indeed does repeat itself. The Palestinian people are the new Jews of the 21st century, but instead of using ovens to get rid of them, Israel uses bombs and bullets.

Wow, That's the greatest bunch of nonsense I've ever heard.

Goyim means *******? second rate human beings? WTF? Do YOU even understand what you're writing?

 

[Lipush]

I accept what you say, but it is mad as rabbit wearing a top hat signing The Sun Has Got His Hat On.

"My Country, Right Or Wrong" was old when it was first stated.
If you look to every decent vision of the future it expects the world to standardise laws, have universal, indivisible and inalienable rights, and be ruled by law, with force the rare exception.

And that is the general directional flow of history.

The concept of Israel harps back to 19th century thinking, as does the state as it exists now. You actively encourage tribalism, and exceptionalism, rather than universal standards treating all people with equal respect.

Article 2 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:


So "My Country Right Or Wrong" is an outdated and savage way.
Only outdated and savage people follow such a doctrine. The US and Israel being such.

Britons and Europeans are well mature enough to go against their state when their state is wrong. Americans are getting the habit too. Even some Israelis do.

To put it in terms you may understand, you should back morality before your state.
God before country. Just because your state says they do God's work doesn't make it so.

We don't say we do God's work. Nobody can do that, except God.

 

[Challenger]

You can simply state "I stand with Hamas, Fatah, PLO, PIJ, Hezbullah, etc."

That would be incorrect, though. If we were having this conversation in the 1930s -40s I would be standing with the Jewish and Gypsy populations of Europe. However, nice of you to admit that the Palestinians are the oppressed in this case.