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Unkotare

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Rationalism or Empiricism?


No fence sitting, no third option.
 
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Unkotare

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Score one for Rationalism.
 

midcan5

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Actually I'm sitting on an exercise ball right now. Neither, there's no such thing as rationalism we can agree on, and empiricism often finds what it is looking for, or rationalizes what it has found, returning me to my first point.

I prefer a liberal communitarian pragmatism or some vague attempt along those lines. ;)

Great book below if you want to challenge your presumably rational instincts. There's a nice oxymoron.

"Within the ethos of reason there was also the idea of encouraging generalized education. Education instilled knowledge. Knowledge dispelled superstition, thus making it possible to reason. A man capable of reasoning was fit to be a citizen. But this idea of creating citizens was vague. What did the elites want them for? The eighteenth-century philosophers believed, after all, in permanently established but benevolent authority. Educating the masses was intended only to improve the relationship between the top and the bottom of society. Not to change the nature of the relationship. [..] Like any elite holding great power, the technocrats are not particularly interested in the creation of subsidiary elites. Thus, while a fortune continues to be spent on state schools and universities, the entire system continues to decline. The intellectual muscle needed to give it direction is concentrated instead upon the continued refining of the education of the technocratic elite. Indeed, whatever may be quoted about the need for general education, there has always been an underlying contradiction in what the nation-state wished to teach the citizen. The masses, it was believed, could not be given more than a basic education: basic skills and - nowhere in elite education does this appear - a moral framework. In other words, they were to receive the nuts and bolts of a humanist formation." p130 'Voltaire's Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West' John Ralston Saul
 
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Unkotare

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Actually I'm sitting on an exercise ball right now. Neither, there's no such thing as rationalism we can agree on, and empiricism often finds what it is looking for, or rationalizes what it has found, returning me to my first point.

I prefer a liberal communitarian pragmatism or some vague attempt along those lines. ;)

Great book below if you want to challenge your presumably rational instincts. T


From your post, it seems you misunderstand what Rationalism is.
 

midcan5

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From your post, it seems you misunderstand what Rationalism is.
The idea that reason guides us, or is a good guide. The trouble with that is where does reason come from and how and why. Can reason be unreasonable.

"Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation." Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory by Hugo Mercier, Dan Sperber :: SSRN
 
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From your post, it seems you misunderstand what Rationalism is.
The idea that reason guides us, or is a good guide. The trouble with that is where does reason come from and how and why. Can reason be unreasonable.

"Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation." Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory by Hugo Mercier, Dan Sperber :: SSRN





No, you're not getting it. You are misunderstanding the fundamental debate between Rationalism and Empiricism in the context of the Enlightenment.
 

AquaAthena

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Rationalism or Empiricism?


No fence sitting, no third option.
Rationalism. Fear is the mind killer, you must rise above your senses if you are to be human.
Our greatest fears lie in anticipation. Most of the things we fear the worst do not come true, I have found out.
 

RKMBrown

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Rationalism or Empiricism?


No fence sitting, no third option.
Rationalism. Fear is the mind killer, you must rise above your senses if you are to be human.
Our greatest fears lie in anticipation. Most of the things we fear the worst do not come true, I have found out.
Yes, and how we deal with those fears can be rational or reactive based on senses and primal urges ingrained genetically, such as to flea from predators.
 

Flopper

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Rationalism. Society can not grow and prosper without it.
 
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Unkotare

Unkotare

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From your post, it seems you misunderstand what Rationalism is.
The idea that reason guides us, or is a good guide. The trouble with that is where does reason come from and how and why. Can reason be unreasonable.

"Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation." Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory by Hugo Mercier, Dan Sperber :: SSRN

Here you go. I found something that explains it in simple terms:

Rationalism - By Movement / School - The Basics of Philosophy
 

midcan5

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I'm not interested in the Cliff notes, I'm interested in the broader, heavier question, if people possess reason, aka rationality, then how is it we can never agree on anything. The thread on 'freedom' is a perfect example. Which leads me to a dilemma, reason must not be reasonable, as if it were, wouldn't we be able, using our reason, to arrive at agreement. Thus if reason leads us all over the place how can that be rational? Or is rational not really rational?
 

Flopper

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From your post, it seems you misunderstand what Rationalism is.
The idea that reason guides us, or is a good guide. The trouble with that is where does reason come from and how and why. Can reason be unreasonable.

"Reasoning is generally seen as a means to improve knowledge and make better decisions. However, much evidence shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions. This suggests that the function of reasoning should be rethought. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived is adaptive given the exceptional dependence of humans on communication and their vulnerability to misinformation." Why Do Humans Reason? Arguments for an Argumentative Theory by Hugo Mercier, Dan Sperber :: SSRN

Here you go. I found something that explains it in simple terms:

Rationalism - By Movement / School - The Basics of Philosophy
Maybe I'm being a bit simplistic, but empiricism ignores anything that can't be seen, heard, tasted, felt, or smelled and that's an awful lot. If we relied only on empiricism, our knowledge base would be pretty small.
 

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