When The FBI Does It, That Means That It’s Not Illegal

[Weatherman2020]

Entrapment is a very high bar. If someone wants to commit a crime, and law enforcement provide them with the means (which is case here) then it’s not entrapment. As long as the government shows that the defendants had their own intent to commit the crime, nothing law enforcement does matters.

All he needs to tell a jury is they approached me with the idea. True or not, their actions make conviction unlikely.

 

[colfax_m]

All he needs to tell a jury is they approached me with the idea.

Well yes. The only problem I see is that it needs to be true. There will be plenty of people ready to testify to the contrary.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Well yes. The only problem I see is that it needs to be true. There will be plenty of people ready to testify to the contrary.

Who? Who’s ready to testify he initiated the plan alone?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Entrapment is a very high bar. If someone wants to commit a crime, and law enforcement provide them with the means (which is case here) then it’s not entrapment. As long as the government shows that the defendants had their own intent to commit the crime, nothing law enforcement does matters.

That's the rub. The author suggests that the entire scheme was orchestrated by the FBI who then recruited the suspects, who would otherwise have gone about their lives. They will need to prove that the group was already planning the crime without FBI influence.

 

[colfax_m]

Who? Who’s ready to testify he initiated the plan alone?

I imagine the 12 FBI sources that you guys are freaking out about.

Not to mention the probability of recordings.

 

[colfax_m]

That's the rub. The author suggests that the entire scheme was orchestrated by the FBI who then recruited the suspects, who would otherwise have gone about their lives. They will need to prove that the group was already planning the crime without FBI influence.

The author can suggest anything they want. When it comes to concrete details, none of them support the scheme originating with the informants. Providing material support to the conspiracy (food and lodging in this case) does not mean they orchestrated it.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

The author can suggest anything they want. When it comes to concrete details, none of them support the scheme originating with the informants. Providing material support to the conspiracy (food and lodging in this case) does not mean they orchestrated it.

What are the concrete details?

 

[Weatherman2020]

I imagine the 12 FBI sources that you guys are freaking out about.

Not to mention the probability of recordings.

So your only witnesses are the same FBI agents it looks like framed him.

SS playbook.

 

[colfax_m]

So your only witnesses are the same FBI agents it looks like framed him.

SS playbook.

And your witnesses are the ones being prosecuted.

Half of these guys are on the wrong side of the law. Which half?

 

[Weatherman2020]

And your witnesses are the ones being prosecuted.

Half of these guys are on the wrong side of the law. Which half?

He doesn’t need to defend himself. It’s up to the FBI to prove he initiated the plan.

 

[colfax_m]

He doesn’t need to defend himself. It’s up to the FBI to prove he initiated the plan.

Yes. And they’ll do that with eyewitness testimony from people cooperating with the FBI. As is the case in a great many prosecutions.

He will need to defend himself from that testimony. Jesus, this is tiring.

 

[SavannahMann]

These days? It is something the FBI does these days? Are you that ignorant of history?

In the 1950’s the FBI and fledgling CIA helped send Heroin to Black communities to keep the Darks under control. When Heroin spread beyond the Black community, the FBI suddenly wanted to stamp it out. The CIA liked that they had contacts into criminal communities. They kept this nonsense up for generations, and not just with Heroin.

In the 1960’s the FBI infiltrated anti war movements, and identified the hotheads to provide bomb making instructions for commonly available materials. Those bomb makers helped diminish the otherwise peaceful nature of the early protests, and created the riots we are all familiar with as the 1960’s ended.

In the 1970’s, the FBI having learned, now provided bomb making materials to hotheads in the protests and movements. Nothing like a few bombings to drive Suburban America away from that way of thinking. We can’t have integration after all.

In the 1980’s, the FBI tried to radicalize the Gay Rights marches, but failed because the big issue was HIV and AIDS. And the principle players were always changing too fast.

The FBI tried to blackmail MLK.

Show me a time when the FBI was honorable and not involved in this crap.

The difference today is that your side is the radicals being targeted for entrapment by the FBI. You enjoyed it when the radicals on the other side were the ones being targeted. Well Mr. Pot, welcome to the party says Mr. Kettle.

The anti war movement for the Gulf War didn’t get started and the war was over too fast for it to get any momentum. But suddenly we have radical Islam to worry about. And then we learn that not only is the FBI infiltrating the Mosques but the NYPD is and often well away from New York.

Now the 21st Century and we had a fledgling anti war movement, but 9-11 kept their membership or effectiveness low for the first decade, but don’t worry. Your FBI was there infiltrating and encouraging violence to get the message across. Thankfully small numbers prevented anything but a few broken windows at recruiters stations from happening.

The FBI is at today? My friend. You are literally the embodiment of Martin Neimoller. The guy with the first they came for quote from Nazi Germany?

For decades the Left and those radicals that had to be stopped to protect America argued it was wrong for the FBI to do these things. Well nobody made them commit the crimes was the argument from your side. They were just offered support for their criminal plans.

Welcome to the Party pal. Now that you get to see people you are sympathetic towards targeted it is wrong and somehow totally new. Nothing like this was ever done before. That’s absolute bullshit. They’ve been doing this for decades, and nary a peep about the Civil Rights and criminal actions of the FBI before now. Now, the Democrats are in charge. And the FBI is the KGB incarnate all of a sudden. We are six months into Biden’s administration. The same agents who were doing this shit during Trump are the ones doing it now. The same agents who were hired during those years are enthusiastically targeting your groups now.

Welcome mate. You’re a little late but the party has been going for a while and shows no sign of ending.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Nope. Intent matters quite a lot. After all, what defense is it to say you definitely wanted to commit a crime but only lacked the means to do so? There’s an interest in the state prosecuting that person because who knows? They may eventually get the means. Your not innocent simply because you’re poor.

As long as the defendants are the ones who decided to commit the crime, they are prosecutable.

Wow. You really think this way? You're more Stalinist than I thought.

I don't know what statute they are being prosecuted under, but because the FBI is involved, I would assume it is a federal crime.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1201
(a) Whoever unlawfully seizes, confines, inveigles, decoys, kidnaps, abducts, or carries away and holds for ransom or reward or otherwise any person, except in the case of a minor by the parent thereof, when—

(1) the person is willfully transported in interstate or foreign commerce, regardless of whether the person was alive when transported across a State boundary, or the offender travels in interstate or foreign commerce or uses the mail or any means, facility, or instrumentality of interstate or foreign commerce in committing or in furtherance of the commission of the offense;​

(2) any such act against the person is done within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States;​

​

(3) any such act against the person is done within the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States as defined in section 46501 of title 49;​

​

(4) the person is a foreign official, an internationally protected person, or an official guest as those terms are defined in section 1116(b) of this title; or​

​

(5) the person is among those officers and employees described in section 1114 of this title and any such act against the person is done while the person is engaged in, or on account of, the performance of official duties, shall be punished by imprisonment for any term of years or for life and, if the death of any person results, shall be punished by death or life imprisonment.​

(b) With respect to subsection (a)(1), above, the failure to release the victim within twenty-four hours after he shall have been unlawfully seized, confined, inveigled, decoyed, kidnapped, abducted, or carried away shall create a rebuttable presumption that such person has been transported in interstate or foreign commerce. Notwithstanding the preceding sentence, the fact that the presumption under this section has not yet taken effect does not preclude a Federal investigation of a possible violation of this section before the 24-hour period has ended.

(c) If two or more persons conspire to violate this section and one or more of such persons do any overt act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each shall be punished by imprisonment for any term of years or for life.

(d) Whoever attempts to violate subsection (a) shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than twenty years.

(e) If the victim of an offense under subsection (a) is an internationally protected person outside the United States, the United States may exercise jurisdiction over the offense if (1) the victim is a representative, officer, employee, or agent of the United States, (2) an offender is a national of the United States, or (3) an offender is afterwards found in the United States. As used in this subsection, the United States includes all areas under the jurisdiction of the United States including any of the places within the provisions of sections 5 and 7 of this title and section 46501(2) of title 49. For purposes of this subsection, the term “national of the United States” has the meaning prescribed in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(22)).

(f) In the course of enforcement of subsection (a)(4) and any other sections prohibiting a conspiracy or attempt to violate subsection (a)(4), the Attorney General may request assistance from any Federal, State, or local agency, including the Army, Navy, and Air Force, any statute, rule, or regulation to the contrary notwithstanding.

____________________________________

Now we're getting into some very narrow territory here. What is the "overt" act? Can a government informant be the person committing the "overt" act to trigger the conspiracy?

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

These days? It is something the FBI does these days? Are you that ignorant of history?

In the 1950’s the FBI and fledgling CIA helped send Heroin to Black communities to keep the Darks under control. When Heroin spread beyond the Black community, the FBI suddenly wanted to stamp it out. The CIA liked that they had contacts into criminal communities. They kept this nonsense up for generations, and not just with Heroin.

In the 1960’s the FBI infiltrated anti war movements, and identified the hotheads to provide bomb making instructions for commonly available materials. Those bomb makers helped diminish the otherwise peaceful nature of the early protests, and created the riots we are all familiar with as the 1960’s ended.

In the 1970’s, the FBI having learned, now provided bomb making materials to hotheads in the protests and movements. Nothing like a few bombings to drive Suburban America away from that way of thinking. We can’t have integration after all.

In the 1980’s, the FBI tried to radicalize the Gay Rights marches, but failed because the big issue was HIV and AIDS. And the principle players were always changing too fast.

The FBI tried to blackmail MLK.

Show me a time when the FBI was honorable and not involved in this crap.

The difference today is that your side is the radicals being targeted for entrapment by the FBI. You enjoyed it when the radicals on the other side were the ones being targeted. Well Mr. Pot, welcome to the party says Mr. Kettle.

The anti war movement for the Gulf War didn’t get started and the war was over too fast for it to get any momentum. But suddenly we have radical Islam to worry about. And then we learn that not only is the FBI infiltrating the Mosques but the NYPD is and often well away from New York.

Now the 21st Century and we had a fledgling anti war movement, but 9-11 kept their membership or effectiveness low for the first decade, but don’t worry. Your FBI was there infiltrating and encouraging violence to get the message across. Thankfully small numbers prevented anything but a few broken windows at recruiters stations from happening.

The FBI is at today? My friend. You are literally the embodiment of Martin Neimoller. The guy with the first they came for quote from Nazi Germany?

For decades the Left and those radicals that had to be stopped to protect America argued it was wrong for the FBI to do these things. Well nobody made them commit the crimes was the argument from your side. They were just offered support for their criminal plans.

Welcome to the Party pal. Now that you get to see people you are sympathetic towards targeted it is wrong and somehow totally new. Nothing like this was ever done before. That’s absolute bullshit. They’ve been doing this for decades, and nary a peep about the Civil Rights and criminal actions of the FBI before now. Now, the Democrats are in charge. And the FBI is the KGB incarnate all of a sudden. We are six months into Biden’s administration. The same agents who were doing this shit during Trump are the ones doing it now. The same agents who were hired during those years are enthusiastically targeting your groups now.

Welcome mate. You’re a little late but the party has been going for a while and shows no sign of ending.

You're not wrong.

Hopefully we can be allies on this point.

I hope you agree that government is the problem here, right?

 

[Flash]

View attachment 515343
Entrapment is a common theme in Fascist States.
The fact no one in the FBI will be punished, let alone prosecuted, confirms the fascist nature of DC these days.

The FBI Says It Thwarted A Plan To Kidnap Michigan’s Governor. The Suspects Say It Was A Setup.

The Michigan kidnapping case is a major test for the Biden administration’s commitment to fighting domestic terrorism — and a crucible for the fierce ideological divisions pulling the country apart.

www.buzzfeednews.com

It Sure Looks Like the FBI Basically Orchestrated the Gretchen Whitmer 'Kidnapping' Plot

redstate.com

The FBI has become the scum of this country. From the leadership to the run of the mill thugs that do their bidding.

Now it is a branch of the Socialist Revolutionary takeover of our country.

The military is becoming the same way.

We have transformed into an oppressive country within a short period of time thanks to the greed of the Liberals and the dishonesty of the Democrats.

We will regret ever letting the Progressives seize power. It will destroy us.

 

[colfax_m]

What is the "overt" act?

They did surveillance of the house.

 

[SavannahMann]

You're not wrong.

Hopefully we can be allies on this point.

I hope you agree that government is the problem here, right?

I said it during the Obama era and Trump era. It was largely my feelings about that the led me to decide not to vote for Trump in 2020.

Trump campaigned on draining the swamp. But it quickly became apparent he wanted the reigns to control the swamp.

No one can control it. The power is too abusive.

What is both amusing and infuriating to me is the Right suddenly deciding it is a problem. It was fine when it was used on them. But not us.

 

[Rogue AI]

I imagine the 12 FBI sources that you guys are freaking out about.

Not to mention the probability of recordings.

Yeah, nothing odd about the federal government needing 12 informants to arrest 14 people. Not very cost effective, but what should we expect from government employees?

 

[colfax_m]

Yeah, nothing odd about the federal government needing 12 informants to arrest 14 people. Not very cost effective, but what should we expect from government employees?

This post makes no sense.

 

[Rogue AI]

This post makes no sense.

It's an obvious show of desperation by the government to seek out that many people to attempt to solidify a case that has no legs. They 'broke' this story for political reasons, long before there was any risk to anyone. So attempting to stack the deck with informants now seems petty, but ignores the simple reality that there never was a case outside the imaginations of a few government stooges.