Zone1 When SCOTUS Rules Against Favoritism Based on Race, the Impact will Go Beyond College Admissions

[Coyote]

I don't think the Democrats think that's what they want, but it does promote a lot more mediocracy and/or under performance than being 'color blind' and just allowing people to compete for true excellence in everything.

Those of color may lag behind for awhile as they have been conditioned by misguided do-gooders for generations to not expect to have to compete at the same level as everybody else in order to be satisfactory. But the barriers to success re race and gender have now been removed for pretty much everybody and I'm quite confident that people of color are every bit as capable to achieve at the same levels as the 'white' people do once they know they have to do that to prosper and are encouraged to reach their full potential.

Yes and no. The blatent barriers have. But some of the underlying issues are still there. I’m quite sure they know what they have to do in order to prosper, and when given the chance, do. They do often face more barriers to even get to the starting line. For example, many are also first generation students, a group that also often struggles in college and lacks the family and community support to get a degree, but when they graduate they tend to pass it on to their own children, who won’t struggle as much, and begin a cycle. But that does often mean accepting a student with lower test scores or the lower end of the allowable GPA.

What factors predict success in college? GPA’s do, more than test scores.

It’s GPAs Not Standardized Tests That Predict College Success

A new study has overturned the conventional wisdom that standardized tests are an objective indicator of whether a student is ready for college.

www.forbes.com

High school GPAs were found to be five times stronger than ACT scores at predicting graduation rates, and that the effect of GPAs was consistent across schools, unlike ACT scores.

The findings overturn the conventional wisdom that, while GPAs vary widely between high schools, standardized test results are a more objective indicator of whether a student is ready for college.

Texas has a “Top Ten Percent” law where the top percentage of every highschool in the state is guaranteed admission to any state institution, regardless of test scores. I think that is a great idea and it has been shown to increase campus diversity.

Top 10 Percent Law

Back to Topics in the News Background Summary The “Top 10 Percent Law” is the common name for Texas House Bill 588, the state law passed in 1997 that guarantees Texas students who graduated in the top ten percent of their high school class automatic admission to all state-funded universities...

news.utexas.edu

Admissions can act as an open door to upward mobility or it can act as means of hardening social stratification.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Sure.

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So, you are saying that schools are excluding or barring the top students?

 

[Coyote]

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So, you are saying that schools are excluding or barring the top students?

No. I just agreed with you.

 

[IM2]

Being black, I find no sense in validating foolish arguments made by whites that ignore the millions of unqualified whites who have consistently been allowed preferences no one else gets because they are white. Until that discussion can be had, all of these opinions are not based in reality but one of the inherent superior intelligence of whites.

 

[Lisa558]

She has never said that colleges should automatically except anybody.

She might have mentioned colleges accepting people, though.

Coyote doesn’t understand the difference between excepting people and accepting people, apparently.

 

[Lisa558]

Being black, I find no sense in validating foolish arguments made by whites that ignore the millions of unqualified whites who have consistently been allowed preferences no one else gets because they are white. Until that discussion can be had, all of these opinions are not based in reality but one of the inherent superior intelligence of whites.

I say admissions standards should not be lowered with the express goal to admit more blacks, which is advancing the idea that they are inherently less intelligent and need standards lowered for them. i say that blacks and whites are equally intelligent (as a group) and that admissions standards do not need to be altered downward to get more blacks across the wire.

 

[hadit]

The argument that you make says different.

I've said nothing about history, that was you.

 

[hadit]

And here is the example that shows how you pretend. In the particular case this thread was made to whine about, unqualified white students are taking seats from black, Hispanic, Asian and Native American students based on ALDC preferences. And as we saw at USC unqualified white student were admitted after parents paid off people. These things are purposefully not mentioned by you, the OP and some others in this thread.

Okay, so start threads about the injustice of white students being accepted with lower scores than black students and I may comment.

 

[hadit]

Being black, I find no sense in validating foolish arguments made by whites that ignore the millions of unqualified whites who have consistently been allowed preferences no one else gets because they are white. Until that discussion can be had, all of these opinions are not based in reality but one of the inherent superior intelligence of whites.

Okay, you've been making this claim for a while now. Please provide the names of universities that are TODAY accepting white students with lower test scores than black students solely BECAUSE they are white. That means no, I will not accept what schools did in 1953, I will not accept complaints about legacy admissions which would be open to the children of wealthy black donors or previous students at the schools, nor will I accept complaints about athletic scholarships going to water polo players who are predominately white. I want to know which schools, by policy, favor white students with all other factors being equal, and are doing it today.

 

[IM2]

I've said nothing about history, that was you.

You should consider history, to include present history, before you make comments on topics like this.

 

[IM2]

Okay, you've been making this claim for a while now. Please provide the names of universities that are TODAY accepting white students with lower test scores than black students solely BECAUSE they are white. That means no, I will not accept what schools did in 1953, I will not accept complaints about legacy admissions which would be open to the children of wealthy black donors or previous students at the schools, nor will I accept complaints about athletic scholarships going to water polo players who are predominately white. I want to know which schools, by policy, favor white students with all other factors being equal, and are doing it today.

Harvard, white ALDC students.

You don't get to not accept anything. That tired "it was in the past" dodge gets no play either. You are looking at white CEOS and professionals at every level who were admitted into college because they were white. Wealthy black donors? LOL! Blacks have 2 percent of the wealth in this country, there aren't that many wealthy black donors. Stop denying reality. Whites such as you seem to miss the fact that white is a race and whites get admitted because they are white. Instead you want to believe that every white kid gets in on merit but scores are lowered for blacks.. So what you don't want to accept is irrelevant, Unqualified whites have been admitted into colleges and better-qualified students of color have been denied. And this has nothing- to do with athletic scholarships.

 

[IM2]

Okay, so start threads about the injustice of white students being accepted with lower scores than black students and I may comment.

No, you will recognize how long whites have been given preferences.

 

[IM2]

How convenient it must be for right wing whites to block out parts of American history to make excuses for themselves. Funny how these same people preach to us about a return to something in the very past they choose to block out when the truth of that past doesn't fit the lie they made up about it.

 

[hadit]

You should consider history, to include present history, before you make comments on topics like this.

Why? The principle of merit-based advancement doesn't require repeated delving into what happened 60 years ago.

 

[IM2]

Why? The principle of merit-based advancement doesn't require repeated delving into what happened 60 years ago.

When merit based advancement has never been used and one group benefitted because of it, it is important to recognize how things got this way. All you want is to maintain white preferences.

 

[hadit]

Harvard, white ALDC students.

IOW, NOT solely because they're white, but because somebody made a big donation. Money opens doors, always has, always will.

You don't get to not accept anything.

Actually, that's exactly what I get to do, because you can't make the argument that white students are getting preferential treatment by policy today.

That tired "it was in the past" dodge gets no play either.

It most certainly does when talking about what schools are doing TODAY. Are white students getting preferential treatment BECAUSE they are white, TODAY? Do they have whites only dorms, separate dining halls, social events, etc? You know that answer already. If they tried, they'd be run out of town on a rail, if they were lucky to still be alive.

You are looking at white CEOS and professionals at every level who were admitted into college because they were white.

Again, years ago. Despite your whining and getting all indignant with me, you can't make the case that white students are preferred BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE. No one that I know is trying to make the case that schools did not discriminate against black students in the past, and if you want to argue about that, few are going to take the opposing view. That, however, is not the point of the thread, and you insisting on taking it off topic to feed your favorite screed is not useful to the discussion. IOW, you're trying to deny that any progress has been made at all while I am pointing out that massive strides have been made in access to higher education.

Wealthy black donors? LOL! Blacks have 2 percent of the wealth in this country, there aren't that many wealthy black donors. Stop denying reality.

And that percentage is growing, is it not? The point remains that a wealthy donor can open a lot of doors for his progeny, regardless of the color of his/her skin.

Whites such as you seem to miss the fact that white is a race and whites get admitted because they are white.

I'm asking which schools are accepting white students solely on the basis of their skin color. What you seem to miss is the reality that such a practice would get a lot of people fired and the school would likely be shut down. Not only is the practice illegal, it's shunned by society.

Instead you want to believe that every white kid gets in on merit but scores are lowered for blacks..

Are they? Do schools admit black students with lower scores than white students?

So what you don't want to accept is irrelevant, Unqualified whites have been admitted into colleges and better-qualified students of color have been denied. And this has nothing- to do with athletic scholarships.

Of course, you would say it has nothing to do with athletic scholarships because black students benefit from them, especially in the big sports that bring big donations. And yes, I dictate what I will accept. When we're talking about whether schools give preference to white students TODAY, it does no good to moan about what they did 60 years ago. Like I said, no one is trying to argue that black students historically got the shaft when they wanted to go to school.

I want to see the scholarship that has a checkbox next to: "Are you white? If not, don't bother".

 

[hadit]

No, you will recognize how long whites have been given preferences.

Sure, and when you complain about white people getting preferences in the past, I don't argue with you because they most certainly did.

 

[hadit]

How convenient it must be for right wing whites to block out parts of American history to make excuses for themselves. Funny how these same people preach to us about a return to something in the very past they choose to block out when the truth of that past doesn't fit the lie they made up about it.

And I agree with you, ignoring inconvenient parts of history does no one any good. In fact, one of the best things about this country is that we are free to bring up those parts of history and take steps to prevent them from happening again. Usually, history is a sobering reminder to NOT give government more power than it absolutely needs.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes and no. The blatent barriers have. But some of the underlying issues are still there. I’m quite sure they know what they have to do in order to prosper, and when given the chance, do. They do often face more barriers to even get to the starting line. For example, many are also first generation students, a group that also often struggles in college and lacks the family and community support to get a degree, but when they graduate they tend to pass it on to their own children, who won’t struggle as much, and begin a cycle. But that does often mean accepting a student with lower test scores or the lower end of the allowable GPA.

What factors predict success in college? GPA’s do, more than test scores.

It’s GPAs Not Standardized Tests That Predict College Success

A new study has overturned the conventional wisdom that standardized tests are an objective indicator of whether a student is ready for college.

www.forbes.com

High school GPAs were found to be five times stronger than ACT scores at predicting graduation rates, and that the effect of GPAs was consistent across schools, unlike ACT scores.

The findings overturn the conventional wisdom that, while GPAs vary widely between high schools, standardized test results are a more objective indicator of whether a student is ready for college.

Texas has a “Top Ten Percent” law where the top percentage of every highschool in the state is guaranteed admission to any state institution, regardless of test scores. I think that is a great idea and it has been shown to increase campus diversity.

Top 10 Percent Law

Back to Topics in the News Background Summary The “Top 10 Percent Law” is the common name for Texas House Bill 588, the state law passed in 1997 that guarantees Texas students who graduated in the top ten percent of their high school class automatic admission to all state-funded universities...

news.utexas.edu

Admissions can act as an open door to upward mobility or it can act as means of hardening social stratification.

No argument from me there. The best way to break down the last of the racist mentality is to stop focusing on it and encourage people to treat all people the same. To treat skin color as of no more importance than hair or eye color.

Laws and policies are in place now that do not discriminate against anybody and allow all to compete even if some have advantages others don't. Dividing people up into demographics, mandatory consideration of some demographics over others, forced diversity, telling some kids they are automatically oppressed, repressed, at fault, racist or victims of racism etc. just because they were born with a certain skin color is one of the most racist and destructive policies that can be done to people. And it is a huge detriment to their chances for success.

That some will have advantages others don't has ALWAYS been the case whether or not racial factors are present. The child from a loving home and who has had the advantage of lots of books and learning experiences and positive reinforcement, whether he/she is black, white, Hispanic or whatever, is going to have a leg up on the kid who didn't have any of that.

But as 3/4ths of the millionaires in this country came from homes that were poor or of very modest means shows us that poverty does not prevent great success. If there is motivation and determination and work ethic and confidence in oneself, it may take the poor kid longer, but he/she can get there. And that is what we need to be teaching our children.

 

[hadit]

When merit based advancement has never been used and one group benefitted because of it, it is important to recognize how things got this way. All you want is to maintain white preferences.

This thread is dedicated to the question of who is benefitting from lower expectations and requirements and if that is ultimately a good thing or not. If you want to make the case that black students should face lower requirements and expectations because 60 years ago their grandparents were not even allowed to enroll in school, go ahead, but expect pushback on it.

I do have to chuckle at your belief that you know what I'm thinking.