“When people condemn Zionists, they mean Jews. You’re talking antisemites.”

[JoeB131]

That's not what you said. I'll quote it for you because your memory seems as faulty as your grasp of history:
You wrote, "The Zionists are a bunch of Europeans, who had no interest in moving to Palestine before 1945"

Except that not only are "the Zionists" more than Europeans, but the interest in moving to the region of the mideast well predates 1945 (as shown by the link I provided). So you are wrong. Deal with it.

Nope, they didn't start moving there until Austrian Mustasche Man started killing them.

They were Europeans, not middle Easterners. They spoke a European language, they had European culture.

 

[rosends]

Nope, they didn't start moving there until Austrian Mustasche Man started killing them.

They were Europeans, not middle Easterners. They spoke a European language, they had European culture.

so I show you evidence that you are wrong and you stamp your foot and insist the error anyway?

that's really sad, man. No, really -- I mean, stand down from the internet bluster we project and strip away the false front we hide behind. Underneath, we are all just people, and you sound like you are hurting -- your need to hold on to a belief in the face of clear evidence to the contrary is just really, really sad.

 

[JoeB131]

so I show you evidence that you are wrong and you stamp your foot and insist the error anyway?

You evidence was unconvincing.

Few Jews lived in Palestine prior to the 20th Century.

Most were in no hurry to go there until after they were chased out of Europe by the Nazis and Communists.

 

[rosends]

You evidence was unconvincing.

what evidence are you looking for? I can provide all sorts of resources. Start with this wiki page and follow the references.

Few Jews lived in Palestine prior to the 20th Century.

again, that wasn't your claim. More dancing.

Most were in no hurry to go there until after they were chased out of Europe by the Nazis and Communists.

completely irrelevant. Why add this?

 

[JoeB131]

what evidence are you looking for? I can provide all sorts of resources. Start with this wiki page and follow the references.

again, that wasn't your claim. More dancing.

completely irrelevant. Why add this?

Census data would be nice... but it doesn't exist. The Ottmans and the British kept very good census records.

That is exactly my point. The fundamental lie of Zionism is "A land without a people for a people without a land." Except there were people there, for centuries, and they are pissed off they were displaced.

My point is that the only reason Israel exists is that other Europeans couldn't stand living with the Ashkenazim. (Not just the Germans, even though they were the major instigators)

The ironic thing was that the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews lived in relative peace in the Islamic World for centuries. They were even valued as scholars and specialists. Then they got driven out because the Ashkenazim stole Palestine.

None of this ends well for anyone.

 

[rosends]

Census data would be nice... but it doesn't exist. The Ottmans and the British kept very good census records.

had you looked at the resource I provided you would have found all sorts of numerical data and other information.

That is exactly my point. The fundamental lie of Zionism is "A land without a people for a people without a land." Except there were people there, for centuries, and they are pissed off they were displaced.

how is that a lie? The land was without a "people" -- there is no claim that it was without people. And which people did you have in mind? When did history start, exactly?

1.2 Zionism is recent history in Palestine

This visual shows the numerous regional and global powers that have ruled over the Jerusalem city/region and its indigenous population over the past 4,000 years. It highlights that, by contrast, the Zionist colonization of Palestine is rooted in very recent history.

101.visualizingpalestine.org

The ironic thing was that the Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews lived in relative peace in the Islamic World for centuries.

"relative peace"...yes, a second class citizen subject to laws and limitations and required to pay a tax for the privilege. Sure, it is better to be oppressed and slaughtered once a month instead of once a week.

They were even valued as scholars and specialists. Then they got driven out because the Ashkenazim stole Palestine.

well, they were driven out in 1492 and if by then Ashkenazim had already "stolen" Palestine, then your claim that Zionists only got interested in Palestine after the Holocaust is proven false!

you just disproved your own claim. That enters into special kind of...well, whatever. Anyway, congrats!

 

[JoeB131]

how is that a lie? The land was without a "people" -- there is no claim that it was without people. And which people did you have in mind? When did history start, exactly?

The point was, there were people there who were dispossessed of their land.

"relative peace"...yes, a second class citizen subject to laws and limitations and required to pay a tax for the privilege. Sure, it is better to be oppressed and slaughtered once a month instead of once a week.

Compared to what Christians were doing to them in Europe, paying a small tax just doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

well, they were driven out in 1492 and if by then Ashkenazim had already "stolen" Palestine, then your claim that Zionists only got interested in Palestine after the Holocaust is proven false!

Um, what the fuck are you talking about?

The Sepharadic Jews were driven out of Spain after the Christians finally won. Understandable, they had heavily collaborated with the Muslims while they were there.

But the idea of colonizing Palestine, that was all the Ashkenazim in Central Europe, a bunch of white people who looked at imperialism and said, "Yeah, we need to get in on some of that action." But even then, most of them weren't keen on going no matter how many goodies the British promised them to do so.

Until Toothbrush Mustasche Man came along, anyway.

 

[rosends]

The point was, there were people there who were dispossessed of their land.

the point was that there was no nation on the land. And there wasn't. By misquoting it you turn its meaning into something that suits your agenda but which isn't the meaning of the quote.

Compared to what Christians were doing to them in Europe, paying a small tax just doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

I guess that's easy for someone who never had to live under it to say...

The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Um, what the fuck are you talking about?

The Sepharadic Jews were driven out of Spain after the Christians finally won. Understandable, they had heavily collaborated with the Muslims while they were there.

But the idea of colonizing Palestine, that was all the Ashkenazim in Central Europe, a bunch of white people who looked at imperialism and said, "Yeah, we need to get in on some of that action." But even then, most of them weren't keen on going no matter how many goodies the British promised them to do so.

Until Toothbrush Mustasche Man came along, anyway.

so you have lost track of your own argument. I'll lay it out for you because you seem unable to see your own stupidity:
post 145, you wrote about Jews in Spain, "Then they got driven out because the Ashkenazim stole Palestine."

Fact -- they were driven out in 1492.

So by your logic, Ashkenazim "stole Palestine" prior to 1492. You have just stated that there were Ashkenazim in "Palestine" in 1492.

So any claim that Ashkenazim weren't interested in the land before 1945 (statements you made in 141 and earlier -- I quoted you directly in post 140, "The Zionists are a bunch of Europeans, who had no interest in moving to Palestine before 1945") must be wrong. You have directly contradicted yourself by 460 years.

You should probably take a break and try to figure out how to reconcile your idiocy so you don't keep proving yourself wrong.

 

[JoeB131]

the point was that there was no nation on the land. And there wasn't. By misquoting it you turn its meaning into something that suits your agenda but which isn't the meaning of the quote.

Except they didn't say "nation", they said "people". The expression is not "A Nation without a people for a people without a Nation".

There were people in Palestine. They had lived there for thousands of years. They rebelled against the Ottomans on the promise that they would get their nation. And then the British and the Zionists screwed them.

so you have lost track of your own argument.

Nope, I know exactly my point and so do you. You just aren't honest enough to admit it.

so you have lost track of your own argument. I'll lay it out for you because you seem unable to see your own stupidity:
post 145, you wrote about Jews in Spain, "Then they got driven out because the Ashkenazim stole Palestine."

I think you need to check your Yiddish to English translator.

 

[rosends]

Except they didn't say "nation", they said "people". The expression is not "A Nation without a people for a people without a Nation".

no, as you quoted, the statement was about "a people" not "people" but if you don't know what "a people" means then I can't help you.

There were people in Palestine. They had lived there for thousands of years. They rebelled against the Ottomans on the promise that they would get their nation. And then the British and the Zionists screwed them.

there were many people and many different groups in charge. The British took over the mandate and the Jews made a country while the Arabs didn't. Feel free to be angry with the British. Strange how I rarely see anyone protesting in front of the English embassy anywhere. Almost like they ignore that the English promised and didn't deliver and just insist on criticizing Israel.

Nope, I know exactly my point and so do you. You just aren't honest enough to admit it.

You know that you disproved yourself and you just won't admit it.

I think you need to check your Yiddish to English translator.

I didn't use any Yiddish. I don't speak Yiddish. Maybe try to face up to your posts and accept that you disproved yourself.

 

[JoeB131]

there were many people and many different groups in charge. The British took over the mandate and the Jews made a country while the Arabs didn't. Feel free to be angry with the British. Strange how I rarely see anyone protesting in front of the English embassy anywhere. Almost like they ignore that the English promised and didn't deliver and just insist on criticizing Israel.

The Brits aren't continuing the error. The Zionists are.

You can go on all day, trying to put a nice spin on the fact you stole their land.

But you stole their land.

That's why they want to kill you.

And it's not America's problem.

 

[Failzero]

Some of the earliest photography ( pre 1850 was Jews in Jerusalem ) and when the Last Crusaders left Jerusalem Jews remained there . And Jews were there in Roman and Greek Eras and the Beginning of the Holy Roman Empire too