What's a liberal?

[Avatar4321]

Some of the most virulent anti-gay rhetoric I've heard has come out of the mouths of closet queers. I've known several people who didn't even realize they were gay. But everybody else did.

You realize you have single handedly destroyed the entire gay movements argument that it isn't a choice with your very short post dont dont you?

 

[Bonnie]

What I think is closed-minded is your inability to see the difference between opposing gay marriage (which does not kill anyone) and opposing abortion (which does involve killing something). I would be very surprised if someone called you closed-minded for opposing abortion, unless you argued that if the woman's life was in danger that an abortion should still not be done.

I believe that the more secure someone is with themselves and their own sexuality, the less likely they would oppose gay marriage.

For the record I don't oppose Gay Union I oppose Gay marriage in the church for deeply held religious beliefs that are also very tied to my beliefs on abortion. Trying to find a weakness in my argument by saying that I put the two on the same level is intellectually vacant. You know exactly the point I was making. Being secure with my sexuality and opposing Gay marriage are again two entirely different matters as my opposition to gay marriage as with many others has nothing to do being against Gay people which is your back handed way of calling me and those who oppose gay MARRIAGE homophobic which is exaclty what I said in my post should not be a persuasive argument for Gay marriage.

So don't even try to use the "shame on you argument" it's not going to spin.......

 

[ProudDem]

I am amazed at how some people seem to think that matters of life and death and important matters regardless of whether we are talking about abortion or gay marriage.

Don't you just love PD's attack plan? Rather than make any substantial arguments you just label anyone who opposes you as "Homophobe" or "insecure with their sexuality"

Tell me who is more insecure with their sexuality? The people who are defending traditional marriage, or the ones who are trying to change marriage to justify their sexual behavior? If homosexuals are so secure in their sexuality, why do they have to get people to tolerate their behavior? It wouldn't matter. Heck most people wouldnt even know about it if they kept it private like most respectable people keep their sex lives private.

Avatar, are you ever going to admit that you were mistaken about Bush and Condi NOT ever saying anything about a mushroom cloud? Just curious if you are man enough to admit your error.

I am so comfortable with my sexuality that I don't see how allowing gay people to marry has any bearing on me or on society.

If homosexuals are so secure in their sexuality, why do they have to get people to tolerate their behavior?

OMG, I can't believe you said that. Well....maybe I can. Tolerate their behavior? What the hell does that mean? Avatar, maybe you're of the mindset that being gay is NOT a choice. If you are, is being a heterosexual a choice for you? If it's not, tell me how it's any different for gay people.

And I am not attacking. My argument about people who don't support gay marriage is that they are either a homophobe (prejudiced against gay people) or have insecurities regarding their own sexuality. I fully believe that. I do not know anyone who doesn't support gay marriage who has no problem with homosexuality. The opposite is true.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

From perusing some of your other threads looks like your right wing ass has been getting a pounding lately!
:duh3: :finger: :69:

Where. Link to where I got my ass pounded.

 

[CSM]

Avatar, are you ever going to admit that you were mistaken about Bush and Condi NOT ever saying anything about a mushroom cloud? Just curious if you are man enough to admit your error.

I am so comfortable with my sexuality that I don't see how allowing gay people to marry has any bearing on me or on society.

If homosexuals are so secure in their sexuality, why do they have to get people to tolerate their behavior?

OMG, I can't believe you said that. Well....maybe I can. Tolerate their behavior? What the hell does that mean? Avatar, maybe you're of the mindset that being gay is NOT a choice. If you are, is being a heterosexual a choice for you? If it's not, tell me how it's any different for gay people.

And I am not attacking. My argument about people who don't support gay marriage is that they are either a homophobe (prejudiced against gay people) or have insecurities regarding their own sexuality. I fully believe that. I do not know anyone who doesn't support gay marriage who has no problem with homosexuality. The opposite is true.

I guess people are not allowed to have religious beliefs that may find homosexuality unacceptable.

 

[Nuc]

You realize you have single handedly destroyed the entire gay movements argument that it isn't a choice with your very short post dont dont you?

I guess you could look at it from both viewpoints.

They were gay even though they were so anti-gay that they went into such deep denial they didn't even acknowledge it to themselves. That points to being born that way.

Although they were gay, they didn't act upon it (maybe?). They overruled their orientation and chose not to engage in homosexual acts. That's choice.

 

[Nuc]

For the record I don't oppose Gay Union I oppose Gay marriage in the church for deeply held religious beliefs that are also very tied to my beliefs on abortion.

The gays should just drop the word marriage and leave the church out of it. Unless they want to start a new church for themselves. Leave the existing ones alone.

 

[Nuc]

Where. Link to where I got my ass pounded.

I was referring to your romantic misadventures. But don't take it personally. We all get our asses kicked in that department from time to time.

 

[ProudDem]

For the record I don't oppose Gay Union I oppose Gay marriage in the church for deeply held religious beliefs that are also very tied to my beliefs on abortion. Trying to find a weakness in my argument by saying that I put the two on the same level is intellectually vacant. You know exactly the point I was making. Being secure with my sexuality and opposing Gay marriage are again two entirely different matters as my opposition to gay marriage as with many others has nothing to do being against Gay people which is your back handed way of calling me and those who oppose gay MARRIAGE homophobic which is exaclty what I said in my post should not be a persuasive argument for Gay marriage.

So don't even try to use the "shame on you argument" it's not going to spin.......

Bonnie, I have no problem with religions deciding that marriage is limited to 2 members of the opposite sex. But don't forget, this past November, several states had people vote on the definition of marriage. That definition relates to the states, and that is what I am talking about.

I am sorry I failed to recognize that it's your religious beliefs that cause you to feel the way you do about abortion and religion. On that note, I have never understood people allowing their religion to dictate how they feel about something. I was raised Catholic. I allowed myself to make decisions based on how I personally felt. Maybe you personally feel that way, which is fine.

However, if you truly accepted gay people, you wouldn't be so opposed to their being able to marry, JUST LIKE YOU. Again, I am talking about states' definition of marriage--not the religious definition.

 

[Bonnie]

Bonnie, I have no problem with religions deciding that marriage is limited to 2 members of the opposite sex. But don't forget, this past November, several states had people vote on the definition of marriage. That definition relates to the states, and that is what I am talking about.

I am sorry I failed to recognize that it's your religious beliefs that cause you to feel the way you do about abortion and religion. On that note, I have never understood people allowing their religion to dictate how they feel about something. I was raised Catholic. I allowed myself to make decisions based on how I personally felt. Maybe you personally feel that way, which is fine.

However, if you truly accepted gay people, you wouldn't be so opposed to their being able to marry, JUST LIKE YOU. Again, I am talking about states' definition of marriage--not the religious definition.

Here is the point you are missing in all of this, if you are religious it does and should dictate everything you think and feel, otherwise why be religious??? Additionally religious people make up a majority of the voting public who influence what their representatives do once elected and if that majority wants a ban on Gay Marriage or a redifined definition that marriage has one person of each gender in one union then that's the way it is. As Gem pointed out there are undeniable ramifications to society in all things and decisions we collectively make. The majority used to take precendent over the minority in this country and that is slowly being eroded for the WANTS of the few, that's not good policy or good government. For some who are not religious there is just a common sense element to their not wanting this or that. Cool heads must prevail in making these decisions. I find it ironic that Conservatives are considered the ones who simply have knee jerk reactions to social policy and Liberals are considered by liberals to be the ones with healthy skepticism, yet on this issue, poverty, the environment, and the abortion issue I see quite a lot of emotion coming from the left.

 

[speederdoc]

However, if you truly accepted gay people, you wouldn't be so opposed to their being able to marry, JUST LIKE YOU. Again, I am talking about states' definition of marriage--not the religious definition.

You weren't talking to me, but I can't resist replying. Any adult human can marry anyone they want....as long as it is someone of the opposite sex. JUST LIKE ME. Two members of the same sex may live together and do whatever they want in the bedroom, but it isn't considered marriage, and hopefully never will be.

My opinion is not influenced by any religious principles, only my knowledge of science and my intrinsic understanding of the way things ought to be.

 

[ProudDem]

You weren't talking to me, but I can't resist replying. Any adult human can marry anyone they want....as long as it is someone of the opposite sex. JUST LIKE ME. Two members of the same sex may live together and do whatever they want in the bedroom, but it isn't considered marriage, and hopefully never will be.

My opinion is not influenced by any religious principles, only my knowledge of science and my intrinsic understanding of the way things ought to be.

I'm glad that you think some people should not be entitled to rights that others are. I believe that gay marriage will be accepted at some point in the future. Remember, Justice Rehnquist opposed desegregation (as did most people) and look, now we have it.

The way things ought to be--<rolling eyes>

Sure most of us are heterosexuals. Do you think that everything is supposed to be one way? We have deformed children, but most children are not deformed. Does that mean that the deformed child shouldn't be allowed certain rights that a nondeformed child is?

 

[speederdoc]

Sure most of us are heterosexuals. Do you think that everything is supposed to be one way? We have deformed children, but most children are not deformed. Does that mean that the deformed child shouldn't be allowed certain rights that a nondeformed child is?

I agree with you that homosexuality, if there is a genetic component, is a sort of deformity....because it would be a dead-end mutation of sorts not valuable in any way as far as improving the species. However, that does not and should not give them special privileges in society.

Sickle cell patients don't get to vote before age 18 despite their shortened life spans, and men with an extra Y chromosome don't get lesser sentences for the violent crimes which they are more likely than normal men to commit.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Sorry, Gem, but your arguments are hollow to me. Marriage should be allowed for any 2 human beings. For you to project that it could then cause people to want to change it to allowing three people is just ridiculous. TWO HUMAN BEINGS. Sure marriage has always been between a man and a woman, but let's not forget that we once had segregation laws as well. Things change.

NO ONE can tell me that allowing two members of the same sex to marry is going to negatively affect our culture. In fact, I think it would show tolerance, something that many of you on this message board clearly lack as to this issue. End of argument. I won't discuss this anymore because I don't care to hear about anyone's arguments about how we should not allow gay marriage. If that gives you all a negative impression on me, that's fine with me. This is an area about which I feel strongly. I just hope that none of you ever have a gay child during your lifetime and watch them struggle due to all the prejudices associated with being gay.

Sorry, ProudDem, but your arguments are hollow to me. Marriage should be allowed for any 3 human beings. For you to project that it could then cause people to want to change it to allowing four people is just ridiculous. THREE HUMAN BEINGS. Sure marriage has always been between a person and a person, but let's not forget that we once had segregation laws as well. Things change.

NO ONE can tell me that allowing three members of any sex to marry is going to negatively affect our culture. In fact, I think it would show tolerance, something that many of you on this message board clearly lack as to this issue. End of argument. I won't discuss this anymore because I don't care to hear about anyone's arguments about how we should not allow bisexual marriage. If that gives you all a negative impression on me, that's fine with me. This is an area about which I feel strongly. I just hope that none of you ever have a bisexual child during your lifetime and watch them struggle due to all the prejudices associated with being bisexual.

 

[Avatar4321]

I'm glad that you think some people should not be entitled to rights that others are. I believe that gay marriage will be accepted at some point in the future. Remember, Justice Rehnquist opposed desegregation (as did most people) and look, now we have it.

The way things ought to be--<rolling eyes>

Sure most of us are heterosexuals. Do you think that everything is supposed to be one way? We have deformed children, but most children are not deformed. Does that mean that the deformed child shouldn't be allowed certain rights that a nondeformed child is?

What rights are anyone being denied?

 

[ProudDem]

Sorry, ProudDem, but your arguments are hollow to me. Marriage should be allowed for any 3 human beings. For you to project that it could then cause people to want to change it to allowing four people is just ridiculous. THREE HUMAN BEINGS. Sure marriage has always been between a person and a person, but let's not forget that we once had segregation laws as well. Things change.

NO ONE can tell me that allowing three members of any sex to marry is going to negatively affect our culture. In fact, I think it would show tolerance, something that many of you on this message board clearly lack as to this issue. End of argument. I won't discuss this anymore because I don't care to hear about anyone's arguments about how we should not allow bisexual marriage. If that gives you all a negative impression on me, that's fine with me. This is an area about which I feel strongly. I just hope that none of you ever have a bisexual child during your lifetime and watch them struggle due to all the prejudices associated with being bisexual.

Is that a joke? Give me a break. I like that you thought so well of my argument that you decided to make it part of your own. I hear the same argument over and over. "But if we allow gay people to get married, then what's to stop us from allowing 3 people to get married, or allowing someone to marry a pet?" That is a bogus argument. How allowing 2 human being to get married, whether they are a man and a woman or a man and a man, will somehow cause people to assert that they should be entitled to marry 3, 4, 5, 6 people is just plain ludicrous. I see what you're arguing about--it's about the fact that gay people aren't like you.

So what do you have to say about segregation? Do you think it was wrong to deny black people the same rights as white people? They were in the minority. They can't change their skin color. If your answer is that you disagree with segregation, then how is it any different than allowing gay people the state right to get married, if they so choose.

Honestly, if 3 people wanted to get married, I would not care. It has no impact on my marriage, my morals, my life--whatsoever. People who argue that allowing two members of the same sex to get married will somehow have a negative effect on society are just plain dumb. To me, as long as people love each other, how can that be seen as a negative thing?

 

[ProudDem]

What rights are anyone being denied?

Ummm, the right to get married? States allow that for heterosexuals. Right?

 

[Bonnie]

Ummm, the right to get married? States allow that for heterosexuals. Right?

Brothers and sisters can not marry
Mothers and Sons can not marry
Fathers and daughters unlawful to get married
Children under the age of consent unlawful to marry with out permission of parents
Multiple married partners unlawful (yes even in that one state).

Why does it matter that two people of the same sex can live together under one roof but not marry? Their still making that committment to each other??

Whan abortion was first made legal it was supposed to be limited now it's to the point that we are killing babies as late as the third trimester and in some cases right before birth, and for no other reason than birth control.

Slippery slope is not a myth and it is not exclusive to that which you think it cannot possibly ever happen....It has and it will. Everytime you lower the standard for acceptable or desirable behavior you risk that.

 

[ProudDem]

Brothers and sisters can not marry
Mothers and Sons can not marry
Fathers and daughters unlawful to get married
Children under the age of consent unlawful to marry with out permission of parents
Multiple married partners unlawful (yes even in that one state).

Why does it matter that two people of the same sex can live together under one roof but not marry? Their still making that committment to each other??

Whan abortion was first made legal it was supposed to be limited now it's to the point that we are killing babies as late as the third trimester and in some cases right before birth, and for no other reason than birth control.

Slippery slope is not a myth and it is not exclusive to that which you think it cannot possibly ever happen....It has and it will. Everytime you lower the standard for acceptable or desirable behavior you risk that.

You raise good examples of two people who cannot get married. However, I believe that there are scientific reasons for not allowing people to marry a blood relative (I think 2nd cousins can get married in some states). The underage example isn't a good example. None of us are allowed to vote until we're 18--not straight people, not gay people, not bisexual people.

I still don't see how allowing gay people to get married lowers the standard for acceptable or desirable behavior. Again, your argument is clearly based upon a prejudice against gay people. That's pretty sad.

 

[Bonnie]

You raise good examples of two people who cannot get married. However, I believe that there are scientific reasons for not allowing people to marry a blood relative (I think 2nd cousins can get married in some states). The underage example isn't a good example. None of us are allowed to vote until we're 18--not straight people, not gay people, not bisexual people.

I still don't see how allowing gay people to get married lowers the standard for acceptable or desirable behavior. Again, your argument is clearly based upon a prejudice against gay people. That's pretty sad.

Yes there are reasons for laws. You know it is possible to like the person and dislike their behavior and to not approve. Are you telling me anything anyone does is just dandy with you?? If you think Gay people should marry then good for you, many don't, are you saying they have no right to their opinions or beliefs???

BTW I have a family member who is gay, and I still care for them, but I don't nor am I required to applaud the behavior.

And you still have not addressed the idea of gay people living together if they are committed to each other, why do they need marriage?