What Would You Do? (Education)

[Unkotare]

A combination of factors, and the combination is different for different students in different places and circumstances.

Don't dance ... tell us. We want to know. What are the factors?

How much time you got? There is the native intelligence of the individual students involved, cultural attitudes towards education, nutrition, sleep, environment, Affective issues of every sort, quality of instruction, curriculum, facilities, etc.

Then, let's just narrow it down to the factors that the education system can affect. Nobody seriously questions the liability of parents for poor student performance, but we can only deal with what we can deal with.

What are the factors, influenced by the school system, that we can work on?

The problem is, if those other factors are not addressed the ones the schools tackle will never be enough to overcome the obstacles to student success. This is basically where we are now.

I recognize that ---- but you must recognize that the ability of the people to influence change is limited to certain areas. Tell me what I can influence. Tell me what my school board can do.

Surely, we're not supposed to just throw our hands in the air and surrender.

On the contrary, schools should always be striving to do better in all areas that they can. However, the "that they can" part needs to be viewed realistically.

 

[Jackson]

I have received letters from parents telling me they appreciate me being their teacher as well as their child's. Every year, I have sent out a form questionnaire asking them to rate me as their child's teacher, my unique program, and if their child was retained, was it fair and if they felt they would have been better off being retained as planned the year before.

(In my program, I always take all the children who should have repeated kdg. and they came to my Title I language arts 1st grade class for one half day and the regular classroom the other half of the day for the remaining subjects.) Every year, about 7 out of 21 were retained into a regular 1st grade class and 14 went on to grade 2.

Everyone of the children passed to 2nd grade were on or above grade level, each year having some students reading at grade 3.

Mind you, all of the students were traditionally going to be retained in kdg.

I work with parents, have workshops for parents and send them good notes often about their progress, good manners or cute things they did that they would like to know. I even wrote Dads in prison, sharing the good news with them if the mother or grandparents allowed it.

My curriculum was written by me and allowed by the principal for it was proven to work. I had University people come in and evaluate the progress of the students and they wrote research on my methods.

Teaching is not an 8 to 3 job. Not if you care.

 

[psikeyhackr]

We have a resource that did not really exist 20 years ago: Project Gutenberg.

Sure people will tell you that it was started in the 70s but in 2000 there were only about 2000 ebooks in the collection. Now it is more than 53,000. The first SF book I read in 4th grade is now in the public domain and was added to PG in 2006.

My mother taught me to read by the time I was 4 years old. But how does a 4 year old figure out what to read and get access to it? The choice of computers is incredible now.

$89 Linux laptop? Check out the new Pinebook from Raspberry Pi rival Pine | ZDNet

Grade school kids could be given more expensive computers now but I find it difficult to imagine what more expensive computers could do for education in grade school.

We have too much bureaucracy in too many schools in too many states. A reading list with explanations for each entry could short circuit the boring and stupid system we claim is intended for education.

BLACK BEAUTY by Anna Sewell
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/271/271-h/271-h.htm

David and the Phoenix (1957) by Edward Ormondroyd
http://librivox.org/david-and-the-phoenix-by-edward-ormondroyd/
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/27922/27922-h/27922-h.htm

The Wind in the Willows (1908) by Kenneth Grahame
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/289

The Boxcar Children (1924) by Gertrude Chandler Warner
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/42796/42796-h/42796-h.htm

The Fourth R (1959) by George O. Smith
http://www.digilibraries.com/ebook/118993/The_Fourth_R/

GOLDEN AGE SCI-FI: 1934–1963 – HiLobrow

psik

 

[Spare_change]

Don't dance ... tell us. We want to know. What are the factors?

How much time you got? There is the native intelligence of the individual students involved, cultural attitudes towards education, nutrition, sleep, environment, Affective issues of every sort, quality of instruction, curriculum, facilities, etc.

Then, let's just narrow it down to the factors that the education system can affect. Nobody seriously questions the liability of parents for poor student performance, but we can only deal with what we can deal with.

What are the factors, influenced by the school system, that we can work on?

The problem is, if those other factors are not addressed the ones the schools tackle will never be enough to overcome the obstacles to student success. This is basically where we are now.

I recognize that ---- but you must recognize that the ability of the people to influence change is limited to certain areas. Tell me what I can influence. Tell me what my school board can do.

Surely, we're not supposed to just throw our hands in the air and surrender.

On the contrary, schools should always be striving to do better in all areas that they can. However, the "that they can" part needs to be viewed realistically.

Damn, you're making me beg .... what is the "that they can" list?

 

[psikeyhackr]

Damn, you're making me beg .... what is the "that they can" list?

What!? Who are you asking what?

psik

 

[Spare_change]

Damn, you're making me beg .... what is the "that they can" list?

What!? Who are you asking what?

psik

Keep up or catch up .... Unkotare and I are dancing right now.

 

[psikeyhackr]

Keep up or catch up .... Unkotare and I are dancing right now.

Sorry, he is in my ignore list and doesn't show up in a search.

psik

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Tax payer money should not be used to pay for private schools or religious schools.

In order to fire "under performing" teachers - you have to have a metric by which to rate them. What would that be?

That was supposed to be one of the goals of Common Core - we see how well that went.

Even if you were to establish some metric methodology, doesn't local control negate standardization?

You can have a degree of standardization from the federal level - there's always been in terms of the general subjects taught etc. But now they're forced to teach to the test and that is destructive both to learning and the teacher's ability to teach.

Can you explain why teaching to the test is wrong?

The tests that my high school math students take are based on the Common Core standards. I teach them the skills they need in order to meet those standards. They are then given a test over those items. That is teaching to the test, is it not?

Why would you teach them something that is not tested? Also, why would you not teach them something that is tested?

The "teaching to the test" blurb is one of the most misunderstood phrases in education. I would guess 99.9% of people outside education misuse it 100% of the time, as wells as about half of those in education who suffer from rectocranial insertion.

 

[Unkotare]

Keep up or catch up .... Unkotare and I are dancing right now.

Sorry, he is in my ignore list and doesn't show up in a search.

psik

It's a shame we can't discuss the only two thoughts that have ever accidentally stumbled into your less-than-capable brain: a sci-fi reading list and double-book accounting. Oh, what I'm missing out on...

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Ever thought that maybe it's not the school system but the kids themselves?

Actually not the kids, but specifically, the parents. Just because you can spawn a fuck-trophy doesn't make you a parent. Too many parents could give a flying f**k about how their children perform in school, or otherwise.

I agree, BUT ....

Does that make it the responsibility of the government to ensure that the student gets a quality education, no matter the parent's involvement?? Does that mean that the government should usurp the rights of the parent to be involved? Should we just take the responsibility for educating our children away from parents and get it over with?

I don't understand the question. It's not illegal to home school. If parents want to send their children to public schools, they don't have the right to tell the teachers to teach "Noah's Ark" as history and "Magical Creation" in place of evolution.

Why not? If we are going to make parents responsible for the education of their children, why don't they get to define what the child learns? If the public school isn't going to educate the child in the manner the parent wants, doesn't he have a right to withdraw both his student AND his tax support?

No. I have never used the services of a fire department because I have never had a fire. Should I have to pay for something I do not use? Society pays for the ebenefit of an educated populace. This falls into the "Suck it up, buttercup!" category.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Actually not the kids, but specifically, the parents. Just because you can spawn a fuck-trophy doesn't make you a parent. Too many parents could give a flying f**k about how their children perform in school, or otherwise.

I agree, BUT ....

Does that make it the responsibility of the government to ensure that the student gets a quality education, no matter the parent's involvement?? Does that mean that the government should usurp the rights of the parent to be involved? Should we just take the responsibility for educating our children away from parents and get it over with?

My initial response is, the parents are responsible. But if the government assumes such responsibility, shouldn't there be government sponsored, and funded, facilities to house and educate those children whose parents prove incapable of supporting education?

Mighty dangerous road you're suggesting there ....

That is my point --- at what point does the parent lose his right to determine the quality and quantity of education for his/her child? At what point does the government "know best"?

Seriously, though, don't you think that the government has already assumed such responsibility, that the schools have usurped the responsibility of the parents, not only to define the type and methodology by which the children will be taught, but also to what level, and even to the point of educating social mores, etc?

That sounds mightily like surrogate parenting to me.

Agreed. But who do we assign the consequences to? Personally, parents should be the ultimate arbiter concerning their children's' education. But how should educational standards be implemented, locally, or nationally?

FINALLY!! (I've been waiting 8 pages for somebody to ask my opinion - lol)

I believe the basic education model is flawed. That which might have worked in the 1930s and 1940s no longer works for us.

Today's education model is based on age - not education. If you are 8, you're in the third grade. If you are 9, you're in the 4th grade. WE suspend their educational growth in favor of social context.

Instead, we need to take a more scientific approach to providing quality education to our students.

We have the capability to explicitly measure the level of a student's knowledge on any subject. We know if he can read at the 3rd grade level - we know if he can do 6th grade math, and we know if he can write at the 10th grade level. Most schools do these measurements today, and then throw them in a file somewhere.

Instead, I propose that we use those measurements to determine not only the level of education the student has already received, but also to determine the level of education the student needs.

For example, let's talk about reading level. Arbitrarily, we plot reading grade level on a 1000 point continuum. If you can read at the first grade level, you get 125 points (remember, testing is going to determine his ability). If he reads at a 4th grade level, he gets 395 points.

So, we plot each student on this continuum (let's call it a graduation yardstick). Where is he placed decides, not only his accomplishments, but the next level he needs to attain. If he scores 395 points, he placed in a "5th grade level" reading class. If he scores 800 points, he is placed in a 10th grade reading class.

Easy to do -- we have all the tools available to us today. BUT - he is placed in that class, no matter his age. If he is 17, and reading at a third grade level, he sits in a class of other students learning at that level. If he is 9, and reading at a 10th grade level, he is placed in that class.

There is NOTHING more damaging to a student than being left behind. Asking a third grade reader to interpret Macbeth is a recipe for instant failure, destroying a student's hunger to learn, and losing a student.

If you've been in education for more than a month, though, you have seen what happens when a student catches fire - when he gets it, when he's excited about it, when he's motivated about it. That 17 year old, reading at a third grade level, will have his eyes opened - he will excel, and he will accelerate.

Why don't we do that? Simple - we have created a false social model that guarantees a certain failure rate. If you can't read in the 6th grade, you still won't be able to read in the 10th grade. If you have to go back to the 3rd grade, obviously, you're a failure and everyone knows it.

So --- eliminate grade levels. Acknowledge performance by scores. Students will be encouraged to perform, and teachers will be mandated to teach. School boards set a minimum set of scores to graduate, and parents have complete visibility into the process.

Piece of cake, huh?

So you want 17 year-olds and 8 year-olds sitting in the same reading class? Are you insane?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I think they have reason to change, but they are stifled in bureacracy. There have been good innovative ideas that are successful, like magnet schools. Funneling money into private education is not going to make them change, it will make it harder for them to change. I also don't think tax payers should fund religious enterprises.

They won't change until their existence is threatened.

I disagree. It's not as simple as that - specifically, the reasons for failing in those schools that are failing are diverse. It's why just throwing money at it doesn't solve the problem and likewise, taking money away doesn't solve anything either.

You would be surprised how much that would do.

Or not.

I'm not willing to allow our public education system to be destroyed so people can have tax payer money financing private and religious schools.

Why would taking my child's share of the 'education dollar' destroy the public education system?

They are not your child's share.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Or not.

I'm not willing to allow our public education system to be destroyed so people can have tax payer money financing private and religious schools.

Why would taking my child's share of the 'education dollar' destroy the public education system?

How will it be payed for? And, as a correlary - why should I pay for your child's private education?

You aren't paying for my child's private school - you are reimbursing me for NOT using your public school.

All other costs I will cover out of pocket.

No. I'm paying for YOUR child's school through MY taxes. It's not MY public school. I have NO kids. Our taxes pay for our social safety net as well. That doesn't mean we should be paying for mansions out of welfare money simply because folks aren't happy with section 8 apartments. Same applies to schools.

Got it .... let's make sure everybody gets the same education, especially when it's no education at all. Equality is more important than quality, right?

The public school system is broken --- busted --- bad.

Where do you off saying that there is no education at all?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Yes, you can have it both ways. They can choose to enroll in the public school, or they can choose to enroll in private or to homeschool. That is freedom of choice.

Our nation mandates that a child receives a certain number of years of schooling. It also provides, through our taxes, but at no cost to the families - free schooling that meets (or should meet) the minimum standard. If they want more than that - then it's up to them. They aren't guaranteed a Harvard education. I don't have kids at all. Why should I have to subsidize ANYONE's education? I do because it's in the best interests of our country, but that doesn't mean I should subsidize private for-profit schools or religious schools.

So, why not give me my share and let me educate my child as I see fit - to include paying whatever extra is necessary to meet my standards?

Because, like roads, and the military, education is publically funded.

It's only publicly funded for those who utilize it. Why should you get paid for NOT educating a child?

Then become an active parent and agent of change for local schools. Don't expect me to pay for your cadillac schools or special religious schools.

You just don't get it, do you? None are so blind as those who cannot see.

I don't want to support your broken school system --- I want to use MY money to improve my child's education. You took it from me --- under the assumption that I was going to benefit from your misuse. I want it back!

Don't pay your taxes and see how well that works for you.

Also, why do you say it is broken?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Competition works only if it is allowed to occur. Absent competition there is no impetus for change. An object at rest will remain at rest, an object in motion will remain in motion. The path of least resistance will be followed.

So you want all schools be required to accept all students and have them all meet the same standards?

Without that, there is still no competition if one school is allowed to skirt the requirements.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Or not.

I'm not willing to allow our public education system to be destroyed so people can have tax payer money financing private and religious schools.

Why would taking my child's share of the 'education dollar' destroy the public education system?

How will it be payed for? And, as a correlary - why should I pay for your child's private education?

You aren't paying for my child's private school - you are reimbursing me for NOT using your public school.

All other costs I will cover out of pocket.

No. I'm paying for YOUR child's school through MY taxes. It's not MY public school. I have NO kids. Our taxes pay for our social safety net as well. That doesn't mean we should be paying for mansions out of welfare money simply because folks aren't happy with section 8 apartments. Same applies to schools.

His point was that if he chooses to send his kids to a private school because the public school is inferior he should be reimbursed for the taxes he paid. I agree.

Then you are both wrong. At least you have company.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The time has come.

It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.

Lesson 1. Education

What would you do to turn around our obviously malfunctioning education system?

All options are on the table --- what's your recommendations?


(Yes, I have some ideas ... but I'm going to read yours first. If they're good, I'm going to claim them as my own!!)

Abolish the DEA. Let state and local governments run their education system without interference from the federal government. Many will allow for a voucher system that will allow poorer families to enroll in higher performing schools. Public schools will be forced to perform or perish.

Why do you want to get rid of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

In your opinion, what IS causing other students to fall behind?

A combination of factors, and the combination is different for different students in different places and circumstances.

Don't dance ... tell us. We want to know. What are the factors?

How much time you got? There is the native intelligence of the individual students involved, cultural attitudes towards education, nutrition, sleep, environment, Affective issues of every sort, quality of instruction, curriculum, facilities, etc.

And of course I should mention the student's security, state of mind, and support structure, among many other possible factors in many possible combinations.

Anything taking the blame off of us and put on the families. We have to change the the curriculum from social engineering to purely academics. Also, the families have to finally understand that they, too have the power of making sure their child is prepared for school and supporting the teachers in making sure they are doing homework and understanding that retention is indeed an option at the end of the year if they cannot master the basics of the program.

Just how are you going to make that happen?

 

[BuckToothMoron]

The time has come.

It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.

Lesson 1. Education

What would you do to turn around our obviously malfunctioning education system?

All options are on the table --- what's your recommendations?


(Yes, I have some ideas ... but I'm going to read yours first. If they're good, I'm going to claim them as my own!!)

Abolish the DEA. Let state and local governments run their education system without interference from the federal government. Many will allow for a voucher system that will allow poorer families to enroll in higher performing schools. Public schools will be forced to perform or perish.

Why do you want to get rid of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)?

Typo- meant department of edu. Obviously

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The time has come.

It is time for us to take control of our government. Rather than wait to see how the government is going to fix our problems, we need to TELL them how to fix our problems.

Lesson 1. Education

What would you do to turn around our obviously malfunctioning education system?

All options are on the table --- what's your recommendations?


(Yes, I have some ideas ... but I'm going to read yours first. If they're good, I'm going to claim them as my own!!)

Abolish the DEA. Let state and local governments run their education system without interference from the federal government. Many will allow for a voucher system that will allow poorer families to enroll in higher performing schools. Public schools will be forced to perform or perish.

Why do you want to get rid of the Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA)?

Typo- meant department of edu. Obviously

That would be the Education Department.