What the hell is a fair tax?

[FA_Q2]

Even percentage on all dollars earned. That is fair – plain and simple. Anything else is not as the system complicates itself with unnecessary garbage and political gerrymandering.

Completely flat without a single thing that can be written off or otherwise avoid the tax that is due.

 

[Camp]

Even percentage on all dollars earned. That is fair – plain and simple. Anything else is not as the system complicates itself with unnecessary garbage and political gerrymandering.

Completely flat without a single thing that can be written off or otherwise avoid the tax that is due.

That doesn't sound fair to me. The only thing even is the percentage used to determime the flat tax. If it were 20% the person making 20 thousand a year would pay 4 thousand. The person making 100 thousand would pay 20 thousand. So what does the person paying the extra 16 thousand get in product (benifits and services)? The answer is nothing. We are supposed to get something when we pay someone for something. To pay more for a product just because you have more money is not fair.

 

[editec]

Even percentage on all dollars earned. That is fair – plain and simple. Anything else is not as the system complicates itself with unnecessary garbage and political gerrymandering.

Completely flat without a single thing that can be written off or otherwise avoid the tax that is due.

You have never run a business, have you?

 

[PMZ]

Even percentage on all dollars earned. That is fair – plain and simple. Anything else is not as the system complicates itself with unnecessary garbage and political gerrymandering.

Completely flat without a single thing that can be written off or otherwise avoid the tax that is due.

You have never run a business, have you?

Out of curiosity, how is that relevant?

 

[zeke]

Fair?? Where in the COTUS does it say that all citizens must be treated "fairly?"

You know what's not fair? That I don't look like Kevin Costner or Tom Brady. Oh well.

You know what's not fair? That I can't throw a baseball 105mph like my man Chapman of the Reds.
Or it's not fair that I can't hit like Cabrerra. It's not fair that Joey Votto gets paid 25 million a year and can't drive in 100 runs.

It is not fair that some ultra rich person will have kids and leave them a few whopping billions of dollars in their trust account. How's that "fair" to my kids. Neither parties kids had anything to do with the estate that will be left to them.

It is not fair that I can't join MENSA. (along with the rest of you on here)

I could go on.

So with all the "unfairness" going on in the USA, where in the fuk is it written that taxes must be paid fairly by all the citizens?

 

[zeke]

OOPS Mods, my bad, I cussed, I forgot where I was. Treat me fairly when you punish me.

 

[Camp]

Fair?? Where in the COTUS does it say that all citizens must be treated "fairly?"

You know what's not fair? That I don't look like Kevin Costner or Tom Brady. Oh well.

You know what's not fair? That I can't throw a baseball 105mph like my man Chapman of the Reds.
Or it's not fair that I can't hit like Cabrerra. It's not fair that Joey Votto gets paid 25 million a year and can't drive in 100 runs.

It is not fair that some ultra rich person will have kids and leave them a few whopping billions of dollars in their trust account. How's that "fair" to my kids. Neither parties kids had anything to do with the estate that will be left to them.

It is not fair that I can't join MENSA. (along with the rest of you on here)

I could go on.

So with all the "unfairness" going on in the USA, where in the fuk is it written that taxes must be paid fairly by all the citizens?

Fairness is a pragmatic thing. When folks have the sense they are being treated fairly, or that authoritarians are attempting to treat them fairly, they get along with others better and they get along with the authoritarians better. That makes them more productive and efficient.
Athletes are born with certain talents and abilities that enable them to negotiate salaries. The team owners can negotiate for what they deem the player is worth towards ticket sales and establishing the type of team they desire.
Kids and others that inherit money because thier heirs for whatever reason wanted to accumulate wealth or whatever for their children and heirs. You mention kids. The parents made funds and kept it put aside to benifit their children. They earned the money so it should be up to them how the money is spent when they die.
Everything and topic in life is not written in a constitution or a holy book or some "way to live guide". Sometimes we have to just figure stuff out for ourselves. Taxes create alot of drama and division amoungst us. We need to be pragmatic about it and make ourselves more efficient in how we collect revenue.

 

[PMZ]

Fair?? Where in the COTUS does it say that all citizens must be treated "fairly?"

You know what's not fair? That I don't look like Kevin Costner or Tom Brady. Oh well.

You know what's not fair? That I can't throw a baseball 105mph like my man Chapman of the Reds.
Or it's not fair that I can't hit like Cabrerra. It's not fair that Joey Votto gets paid 25 million a year and can't drive in 100 runs.

It is not fair that some ultra rich person will have kids and leave them a few whopping billions of dollars in their trust account. How's that "fair" to my kids. Neither parties kids had anything to do with the estate that will be left to them.

It is not fair that I can't join MENSA. (along with the rest of you on here)

I could go on.

So with all the "unfairness" going on in the USA, where in the fuk is it written that taxes must be paid fairly by all the citizens?

Fairness is a pragmatic thing. When folks have the sense they are being treated fairly, or that authoritarians are attempting to treat them fairly, they get along with others better and they get along with the authoritarians better. That makes them more productive and efficient.
Athletes are born with certain talents and abilities that enable them to negotiate salaries. The team owners can negotiate for what they deem the player is worth towards ticket sales and establishing the type of team they desire.
Kids and others that inherit money because thier heirs for whatever reason wanted to accumulate wealth or whatever for their children and heirs. You mention kids. The parents made funds and kept it put aside to benifit their children. They earned the money so it should be up to them how the money is spent when they die.
Everything and topic in life is not written in a constitution or a holy book or some "way to live guide". Sometimes we have to just figure stuff out for ourselves. Taxes create alot of drama and division amoungst us. We need to be pragmatic about it and make ourselves more efficient in how we collect revenue.

If you believe that there is a system for taxation that is not divisive, you belong in Washington.

Most divisive people judge taxation fairness one way. They want to pay less.

 

[antique4xpu]

i think "fair" would be asking those who own 90% of the nation to pay for 90% of the cost of running the government .......

what could be fairer than that?

 

[PMZ]

i think "fair" would be asking those who own 90% of the nation to pay for 90% of the cost of running the government .......

what could be fairer than that?

That's actually pretty close to what happens today.

 

[Camp]

Fair?? Where in the COTUS does it say that all citizens must be treated "fairly?"

You know what's not fair? That I don't look like Kevin Costner or Tom Brady. Oh well.

You know what's not fair? That I can't throw a baseball 105mph like my man Chapman of the Reds.
Or it's not fair that I can't hit like Cabrerra. It's not fair that Joey Votto gets paid 25 million a year and can't drive in 100 runs.

It is not fair that some ultra rich person will have kids and leave them a few whopping billions of dollars in their trust account. How's that "fair" to my kids. Neither parties kids had anything to do with the estate that will be left to them.

It is not fair that I can't join MENSA. (along with the rest of you on here)

I could go on.

So with all the "unfairness" going on in the USA, where in the fuk is it written that taxes must be paid fairly by all the citizens?

Fairness is a pragmatic thing. When folks have the sense they are being treated fairly, or that authoritarians are attempting to treat them fairly, they get along with others better and they get along with the authoritarians better. That makes them more productive and efficient.
Athletes are born with certain talents and abilities that enable them to negotiate salaries. The team owners can negotiate for what they deem the player is worth towards ticket sales and establishing the type of team they desire.
Kids and others that inherit money because thier heirs for whatever reason wanted to accumulate wealth or whatever for their children and heirs. You mention kids. The parents made funds and kept it put aside to benifit their children. They earned the money so it should be up to them how the money is spent when they die.
Everything and topic in life is not written in a constitution or a holy book or some "way to live guide". Sometimes we have to just figure stuff out for ourselves. Taxes create alot of drama and division amoungst us. We need to be pragmatic about it and make ourselves more efficient in how we collect revenue.

If you believe that there is a system for taxation that is not divisive, you belong in Washington.

Most divisive people judge taxation fairness one way. They want to pay less.

Pragmatist do not seek perfection. They seek the resolution of problems in the most practical means possible. Consumption taxes give people the option of regulating the amount of taxes they pay. We can probably never cover all of gorvernment costs with consumption taxes, but we can cover many of them. The less the percentage of taxes needed through a flat tax or a progressive tax, the fairer our tax system becomes because we give folks the ability to put themselve to a position of paying "no taxes".

 

[eagle1462010]

Fair is in the eye of the beholder................

What is fair to some is unfair to others...............

Some believe in living within our means...............

Some believe in Debt to the next universe..............

Perhaps the Founders knew a better way.............

No Federal Tax, bill sent to operate Gov't sent to the states to decide how to pay for it.
Local decided how to pay for it.................
Each state paid based on their population percentage............
If this were to occur today, it would start a revolution when they got the bill.....

How about the Constitution.............
Taxes to be LEVIED UNIFORM ACROSS THE NATION................

Does that happen now........................

Again, ditching the Constitution for the better good of the people...........

Is it better now..............Only a fool would think so...........

 

[PMZ]

Fairness is a pragmatic thing. When folks have the sense they are being treated fairly, or that authoritarians are attempting to treat them fairly, they get along with others better and they get along with the authoritarians better. That makes them more productive and efficient.
Athletes are born with certain talents and abilities that enable them to negotiate salaries. The team owners can negotiate for what they deem the player is worth towards ticket sales and establishing the type of team they desire.
Kids and others that inherit money because thier heirs for whatever reason wanted to accumulate wealth or whatever for their children and heirs. You mention kids. The parents made funds and kept it put aside to benifit their children. They earned the money so it should be up to them how the money is spent when they die.
Everything and topic in life is not written in a constitution or a holy book or some "way to live guide". Sometimes we have to just figure stuff out for ourselves. Taxes create alot of drama and division amoungst us. We need to be pragmatic about it and make ourselves more efficient in how we collect revenue.

If you believe that there is a system for taxation that is not divisive, you belong in Washington.

Most divisive people judge taxation fairness one way. They want to pay less.

Pragmatist do not seek perfection. They seek the resolution of problems in the most practical means possible. Consumption taxes give people the option of regulating the amount of taxes they pay. We can probably never cover all of gorvernment costs with consumption taxes, but we can cover many of them. The less the percentage of taxes needed through a flat tax or a progressive tax, the fairer our tax system becomes because we give folks the ability to put themselve to a position of paying "no taxes".

The poor spend virtually every nickel of income on survival through consumption.

The wealthy, try as they might, cannot even put a dent in their wealth.

A flat consumption tax would vastly redistribute wealth upwards compared to progressive taxes on financial means be they income or wealth.

Just the opposite of what is necessary today.

 

[Camp]

i think "fair" would be asking those who own 90% of the nation to pay for 90% of the cost of running the government .......

what could be fairer than that?

We had something like that back in the 50's. We had a couple of other things also however. We aknowledged obscene wealth and greed. We told folks that once they earned a certain amount of income they could stop earning or donate their excessive income to charity. Otherwise they had to give it to the government to support the general welfare of society. Non-profit hospitals were build with little names posted at the entrance telling those who entered who paid for the hospital. Museums were built. Universities and colleges were built and supported. Estates were turned into parks. All manner of things were paid for by folks who made excessive wealth. When we stopped aknowledging obscene wealth and accepted greed, we gave all that up. No one was left to take up the slack. The government had to do it. That is where we are today.

 

[alan1]

I see two possible ways that are fair when it comes to taxation.

1. Everybody pays the exact same percentage of their income. Whether you make $10k or $10m, your tax is x percent. No write-offs, no deductions, no exclusions. Pay your x percent.

2. Everybody pays the exact same amount. Divide the federal budget by the number of people in the country and everybody pays the exact same amount.

 

[YANKEE]

Is there such a thing as a fair tax? Seems no matter what kind of system is used, it turns out to be unfair to some people. My thinking is that the closest thing to a fair tax or taxes are user fee type taxes and sales taxes. Everything else allows some folks to pay little or nothing, and others to pay way to much. I don't consider a flat tax to be fair. Why should a person making a hundred thousand bucks a year have to pay way more for the same benifits and services as a person making twenty thousand bucks a year? Same for any kind of progressive type tax. Shouldn't a fair tax be spread out evenly?

In defining FAIR, we must start with understanding exactly what we are doing when we "tax" people. What we should be trying to to is to allocate the cost of our American cooperative, just like any condo or timeshare (we should not be trying to create more equal OUTCOMES in life).

The only FAIR way to spread the burden is an equal $ amount of tax being paid by all Americans, because none of us have any greater impact on the COST of the military (i.e., 90% of what the Constitution empowers the fed govt to spend).

Because we will not reach that goal anytime soon, a 10% Flat Income Tax with no deductions, exemptions, credits and all business income taxed on a simple basis to shareholders (not corporate IT), would make a fine next step in the right direction.

 

[YANKEE]

Forget the idea of tax. The liberal concept of equality isn't how much is taken. It's how much the individual is left with after what they have is taken. Even if the corporate CEO is taxed at 90%, that CEO will still be left with more than the janitor makes. The only way to make things fair and equal, is to take everything from the CEO until the CEO and the Janitor's salary is equalized. It might be a tax of 99.75% and that might not be enough. The obamadaddy thought that all salaries should be taxed at 100% with the government providing subsistence, equally. That's the essence of marxism, to each according to his needs, from each according to their ability.

Are you telling us we should believe in this Liberal/Progressive/Socialist nonsense?

 

[YANKEE]

I see two possible ways that are fair when it comes to taxation.

1. Everybody pays the exact same percentage of their income. Whether you make $10k or $10m, your tax is x percent. No write-offs, no deductions, no exclusions. Pay your x percent.

2. Everybody pays the exact same amount. Divide the federal budget by the number of people in the country and everybody pays the exact same amount.

Your # 1 is the right next step to take (but also eliminate the corporate IT by taxing business income on a very simple basis to owners).

Your # 2 is THE right answer, but we must be practical - maybe someday in the distant future.

 

[PMZ]

Is there such a thing as a fair tax? Seems no matter what kind of system is used, it turns out to be unfair to some people. My thinking is that the closest thing to a fair tax or taxes are user fee type taxes and sales taxes. Everything else allows some folks to pay little or nothing, and others to pay way to much. I don't consider a flat tax to be fair. Why should a person making a hundred thousand bucks a year have to pay way more for the same benifits and services as a person making twenty thousand bucks a year? Same for any kind of progressive type tax. Shouldn't a fair tax be spread out evenly?

In defining FAIR, we must start with understanding exactly what we are doing when we "tax" people. What we should be trying to to is to allocate the cost of our American cooperative, just like any condo or timeshare (we should not be trying to create more equal OUTCOMES in life).

The only FAIR way to spread the burden is an equal $ amount of tax being paid by all Americans, because none of us have any greater impact on the COST of the military (i.e., 90% of what the Constitution empowers the fed govt to spend).

Because we will not reach that goal anytime soon, a 10% Flat Income Tax with no deductions, exemptions, credits and all business income taxed on a simple basis to shareholders (not corporate IT), would make a fine next step in the right direction.

"We should not be trying to create more equal OUTCOMES in life."

Where is this written?

A previous post sang the praises of pragmatism.

That’s what politics is all about.

In the absence of progressive taxes on income or wealth, capitalism would be a victim of its own success in accomplishing wealth redistribution up.

We would become a third world banana republic with a failed economy.

A pragmatist would look for success rather than that failure.

 

[Camp]

If you believe that there is a system for taxation that is not divisive, you belong in Washington.

Most divisive people judge taxation fairness one way. They want to pay less.

Pragmatist do not seek perfection. They seek the resolution of problems in the most practical means possible. Consumption taxes give people the option of regulating the amount of taxes they pay. We can probably never cover all of gorvernment costs with consumption taxes, but we can cover many of them. The less the percentage of taxes needed through a flat tax or a progressive tax, the fairer our tax system becomes because we give folks the ability to put themselve to a position of paying "no taxes".

The poor spend virtually every nickel of income on survival through consumption.

The wealthy, try as they might, cannot even put a dent in their wealth.

A flat consumption tax would vastly redistribute wealth upwards compared to progressive taxes on financial means be they income or wealth.

Just the opposite of what is necessary today.

Problem solved by not taxing certain products deemed as necessities. Taxes on some other products don't start until a certain level is reached. Everybody gets the same level of relief for certain things like heating oil, electricity and whatever else we decide is a necessity. It is fair because the rich guy gets the same amount of tax free electric, heating oil, whatever that the poor guy gets. The poor guy might be able to get by on $200 a month on an electric bill. If the rich guy wants to live in a huge house that uses two or three times that amount, or many times that amount, that is on him. He made the choice to load his home up with extra appliances, heated swimming pool, sauna, fancy outdoor lighting, whatever. He gets the same first $200 of usage as the poor guy, tax free. That makes it fair. Everyone is treated equal, down to the dollar, down to the cent. We can use this concept on all kinds of things.