What should abortion laws be?

[Cecilie1200]

Didn't this ignorant trollop storm off with her thong in a twist, vowing never to return? Worse than bad Mexican food for repeating on you, I swear.

Are you insulting my lunch?


The menudo wasn't that old...


Okay, I lied, I had carne asada for lunch. They only have menudo on the weekends.

Ick. You actually eat that crap?

 

[Cecilie1200]

They won't say these things to a man, of course. Only to a woman.. And they claim to not be misogynists. HA! Yeah.. that's a laugh!!!

Someone tell this bitch she's retarded. I've said the same thing to male posters on this very forum in the past.

Would someone please tell me how I'm supposed to tell a man that he's a baby killer for aborting the child he's pregnant with? Once again, JD is defeated by her own despised biology.

I'm personally entertained by JD of all people telling me that I am the one who hates women. Her loathing for everything female positively reeks off of her posts.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Thanks but I deleted it

I seriously don't mean to criticize anyone that's had an abortion. I think anyone that has, has been taught to look at it in a way that makes it seem okay. I think a lot of women are suffering under the burden of it even if on the surface they deny the reality of it.I've had that choice offered to me and in a way, I was weak in that even if I could logically try to believe what planned parenthood was pushing, I couldn't do it. Was that weakness? To not follow through what you try to logically reason out?

No, because what you were doing wasn't logical reasoning. It was rationalization. If you weren't able to sell yourself on it, that just means your subconscious knew you were bullshitting.

But it's that needling memory of ignoring the resistance that sorrows women. A woman could accept the error if she didn't remember that at the time, she knew not to, but did it anyway. I can't imagine anyone actually went through an abortion without a second thought, and it's that second thought that is like a monkey on their back constantly beating them up with the guilt.

But we have ALL made mistakes. We've all done things we regret. It's why Christ came, to take on the mistakes that we've all made. The baby isn't suffering, he or she is secure in HIm. The only one suffering is the woman that was lied to and should have been supported in her hour of need.

My argument is not with the woman that's been misled, but with the politician that makes a profit or a vote out of deceiving generations of women and promotes the continuation of genocide. I think we all need to watch out for women like Lois Capps, who used to be a school nurse that distributed glasses to the needy. Then she turns around and fights with everything she's got for abortion and I gotta wonder, was she handing out glasses to little kids thinking they never should have been born? What makes a woman do that? Sick.

While I can agree with you in part about your sympathy for women who have been misled, I am not quite so nice or forgiving, because it WAS still their choice, and they DID still choose to let themselves be misled. I am a big believer in social disapproval and shame as a deterrent, and I think we've done ourselves a disservice in our rush to alleviate the need for anyone in our society to ever feel ashamed or guilty. And with someone like JD, who is so toxic with her own self-loathing and utterly cloaked in her sense of entitlement to total selfishness that she would rather make herself look like an uneducated fool in public rather than consider the possibility that the sun doesn't rise and set on her, she not only deserves to be hit broadside with both barrels of how contemptible and repulsive she truly is, it is a positive pleasure to do so.

 

[JenT]

Exactly what I spent 60+ pages dealing with on this thread alone, before finally putting him on ignore, lol..

The extremists on this thread will of course threaten your life just the way proletarian did to you- as a means of comparing a born person being tortured, raped and killed to a born person ending a pregnancy by choice.

This is just one in a zillion examples of the illogical, meaningless emotional hyperbole used by the psychotic antis in this thread.

Oh and just you wait- they will start calling you non sentient and a bad parent with neglected or abused kids, just because you advocate for decriminalizing late term abortions too. And this will be from the very person who claims she would hurt her own children and their girlfriends, should any of her son's girlfriends attempt to abort.

They won't say these things to a man, of course. Only to a woman.. And they claim to not be misogynists. HA! Yeah.. that's a laugh!!!

Somebody threatened your life?

Who called you non-sentient and a bad parent?

I had an abortion when I was 18, but I am the proud parent of an 11 year old boy.

I think Cecile and Proletarian were the main culprits when it comes to calling me a non sentient organism, and a bad parent, etc, all because either of my having an abortion (which Cecile is so against, she would admittedly hurt her own children/ children's girlfriend over) or my standing up to people who want to see women incarcerated and their bodies turned into evidence chambers, based on what time of their pregnancy they chose to end it, or miscarried.
These people want fetuses to have rights. It is not just about abortion, then. Anyone who has a stillbirth could be imprisoned, based on them smoking, or being a lousy driver, or eating or drinking something that wasn't so good for them, or any number of stupid decisions that people make on a day to day basis.

The thing is- as long as it is a FETUS, it is not an individual. It is inside of another human being, without whom being alive, it could die. There is no guarantee of a fetus getting prompt medical treatment if the woman was to cease from breathing and having a heartbeat. Even with fetal entitlement laws, there STILL would be no guarantee that a fetus will survive a pregnancy. Fetuses should not have legal entitlements at all. People hate me for saying this- but I don't say it because I hate fetuses. I say it because I respect women too much to see them having to deal with legal problems over stillbirths that maybe could have been avoided. There is no way of knowing whether that stillbirth was the direct result of the woman's actions, or something that occurred for another reason that could not be helped.
Ultimately, people should not be punished and imprisoned for being stupid, and whether that stupidity destroys their own fetus, or not, is totally irrelevant. It is the woman's body that she has control over. She is not sorry that she can't control the feelings of people who are overemotional about HER miscarriage or stillbirth, or sometimes, abortion. All she can control is her own body, and her own emotions. Why would anyone want to take any of that away from her?

I can certainly understand the concern of big government getting all legal about if we smoke during pregnancy, etc., but that's a battle Americans unfortunately have to fight in just about every aspect of life any more. I just heard New Jersey is the first state to start controlling what the day care centers teach starting with 6 week olds. Meanwhile there are soundbytes of students being trained to treat their parents like children and to love Obama.

So yeah, government pushing its way into our lives is a huge threat to freedom.

But what an analogy of "Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater" Denying abortion isn't about controlling someone else's body, it's recognizing that there is more than one life there and one should not have the right to destroy the other. There are so many alternatives, NONE of them easy, I know, but a life is a life, and we were all once just a small microscopic few cells with DNA already determining who we are.

 

[Cecilie1200]

You have to recognize in the basest form that you hold two beliefs that can't be held simultaneously. You can't be a cheerleader for personal choice when the result of exercising that choice has the potential to deprive another of personal choice.

What I recognize is that, yes, the right of the woman to have choice does indeed override the unborn child's choice to stay alive. If one looks at the elective abortion procedure being that of just another form of birth control, I along with most other people, am offended by that. No one, IMO, should utilize this procedure for that purpose. Rest assured though that there are cases where women seek the procedure for reasons other than birth control, such as genetic anomalies, health issues, complications of pregnancy. How nice it would be if physicians who perform the procedure stuck to just those cases. I would very much like to see that happen.

. . . So it's your position that handicapped people don't deserve to live, or is it just that they're not worth having around?

 

[Cecilie1200]

If one looks at the elective abortion procedure being that of just another form of birth control, I along with most other people, am offended by that. No one, IMO, should utilize this procedure for that purpose.

Yet you're defending a woman who said.

Abortion IS birth control.

I think she already made it clear that she didn't bother to read any of the thread before barging in here, bristling with self-righteousness, convinced that her sincere desire to sound "nice" would be enough to carry the day.

 

[bobbcat]

Cynical much?

you're none too bright

You don't know me from Adam and doubtless have not checked out my posts on other topics, yet you jump to this hasty, negative conclusion. None too bright, if you ask me or most anyone else, so, speak for yourself, dear, and keep the personal crap to yourself, unless of course, you're just out to impress people.

 

[Gadawg73]

I am adamantly opposed to an abortion.
I am adamantly opposed allowing government the power to pick and choose on who THEY allow to have an abortion.
Anyone that does not know that is how it always worked when abortion was "illegal" is maive, gullible dumb or all of the above.
Folks, no law stops abortion. The middle class above will still get them at will.
Get real folks.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Cynical much?

you're none too bright

You don't know me from Adam and doubtless have not checked out my posts on other topics, yet you jump to this hasty, negative conclusion. None too bright, if you ask me or most anyone else, so, speak for yourself, dear, and keep the personal crap to yourself, unless of course, you're just out to impress people.

Why do you halfwits always start out with this "You don't know me" line? I don't WANT to know you, and the more you talk, the more grateful I am that I never will. All I need to know about you is your posts, and they indicate like a giant neon sign that you're none too bright. That opening line just underscores the fact.

I HAVE seen you around, and have to say that nothing you've said was of enough consequence for me to pay any attention to. The only reason you are now being so favored is that you were stupid enough to come trotting in here to defend a woman who has manifestly made a fool out of herself for weeks now (which you would know, had you bothered to acquaint yourself with the thread before barging into it) with the flimsiest warm, fuzzy, PC talking point imaginable. Since she had just previously run away with her tail between her legs like a whipped dog (something anyone with more of a sense of shame would have done weeks ago), you just took her target onto your own back. Congratulations. Tell me what it is about that that should make me gaze at you admiringly for your brilliance.

Please, do continue to mistakenly believe that I'm just dying to impress you, someone who earned my contempt for the first words out of her mouth that were even fortunate enough to gain my notice. I'm certain I shall just pine away for longing for the approval of the ignorant, desperate-to-please twit who genuinely thinks "Abortion is all about a woman's body" is any kind of sensible, logical, well-thought-out argument. And THEN, upon finding out that that cut no ice around here, immediately switched to, "Abortion is horrible, and should only be used for extreme circumstances!" Who's trying to impress whom, "dear"?

You make the argument personal when you make it obvious that you're a moron who just mouths platitudes in the hope that everyone will like her. Besides, I certainly can't have an in-depth issue debate concerning your incisive topic points, since you didn't have any. That really only leaves commenting on how ludicrous it was for you to come in here without getting some first.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I am adamantly opposed to an abortion.
I am adamantly opposed allowing government the power to pick and choose on who THEY allow to have an abortion.
Anyone that does not know that is how it always worked when abortion was "illegal" is maive, gullible dumb or all of the above.
Folks, no law stops abortion. The middle class above will still get them at will.
Get real folks.

Oh, "at will", is it? You honestly think there were millions of abortions every year prior to Roe v. Wade, do you? We're going with the class warfare argument now, are we? "Kill your babies to put the rich bastards in their place"?

It's like ignorance is contagious, I swear.

 

[bobbcat]

Another one for the ignore list (as I really don't like to feed trolls). Recommended reading for you, dear: How to Win Friends and Influence People. Your social 'skills' need a lot of work. It just isn't necessary to be so snarky and nasty.

 

[JD_2B]

I am adamantly opposed to an abortion.
I am adamantly opposed allowing government the power to pick and choose on who THEY allow to have an abortion.
Anyone that does not know that is how it always worked when abortion was "illegal" is maive, gullible dumb or all of the above.
Folks, no law stops abortion. The middle class above will still get them at will.
Get real folks.

So, are you against legalized abortion for only the po' folk, for everyone, or not against legalized abortion at all?

 

[JD_2B]

A chicken is not an egg, though a fertilized egg will become a chicken, they still are NOT the same....they have the potential to be the same, but at certain stages, are not the same...

There is MORE VALUE given to a person that is BORN than to a human that has not been born or birthed. (This is not something that I have made up or even necessarily believe, but is the norm in our society, imo)

(In a fertility clinic that is burning, Firemen will rescue those that are alive working there FIRST, then, if they can, will rescue the fertilized, frozen embryos)

I have to disagree with you on the firemen "rescuing" frozen embryos. Those frozen embryos are business assets, not lives, and nobody in their right mind would go back into a burning building to retrieve cryogenically (sp?) frozen anything. For one thing, they are frozen. Frozen bodies of born humans do not get any kind of "rush" status on saving, so why would anyone put a rush on frozen embryos? The vast majority of those embryos will not survive in the uterus anyways. Those docs like to implant several embryos in hopes of getting someone preggers.

There is a stage where the fetus is viable, able to survive outside of the womb, though still in the womb...they are as equal as a person that is born already, imho and all protections should be afforded to them, to keep them alive.... I DO NOT for the life of me, understand why anyone would need to abort their child in the latter months of their pregnancy...???? Why they had to wait until their fetus was fully formed before deciding they did not want them....is beyond me....

It might have all of the stuff in place that gives it the potential capacity to survive outside of the uterus, if it ever got out of there without any strange complications, sure. That does not make a viable fetus alive, or a person.
However, I do empathize with the sentiment that generally speaking, most women do seem to have a social obligation of morality to go ahead and birth the fetus, once it gets to the third trimester. However, moral standards based on social stigmas are inadequate reasons for passing legislation that gives fetuses rights, and therefore criminalize women for a variety of reasons..

Stillbirth: If the woman had a stillbirth, and the fetus had "rights", then the investigators have the right to "search" her body cavities for "evidence" that she did something wrong that caused the stillbirth to happen. This is not fair.
Let's say that the woman was hit by a car, completely by accident, and was a few weeks away from her due date. She doesn't die, but her fetus is stillborn.. Is that homicide? Suddenly her stillbirth, which may have been caused by a combination of the accident and some other issues as well, for all anyone knows, is on public record, not private at all, and the case is the State versus whomever hit her.

Now, many people say that these cases should be treated the same, and who cares about anyone's medical privacy rights, etc, but that is just unconstitutional, plain and simple.

Being born is not a right. It is not an entitlement to come out healthy and breathing. It only happens this way by luck/ intelligence and love/ wantedness. If a fetus is unwanted, then the love part is generally missing. It could be wanted and unloved, of course. Those can be given up for adoption. Then there are the fetuses that are loved AND wanted, but the person is having a patch of shitty luck at the time, and the pregnancy is untimely for them, even if it is later on that this comes to be. Someone can also be loving, wanting it, and have the best luck in their lives, but be really stupid, and make some kind of decision that wrecks the pregnancy, or allow someone in their life to wreck it, physically, or whatever.
I know that is all sucks, to say it out loud, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but really- that is how it works, in a nutshell. I am also aware that many people think that luck is only for the superstitious, but sometimes people have rotten luck, and sometimes people have awesome luck. We all know it is true, or we wouldn't cross our fingers when we hope for something to go our way. =)

I really do not see any real difference in the potential life of a frozen embryo compared to the potential life of a late term "viable" fetus, either. Yeah there is the viability issue- but really, embryos might as well be considered viable, too. I mean, we have frozen embryos living outside of the womb. It's not like the bottom line in all of this is the potential for it to come out of the womb and still grow into adulthood. Obviously not, so the viability arguments never make any sense to me at all, because they lack consistency, in my book. (no offense meant, by the way)

It seems to me that if someone makes a choice to use IVF, (which destroys several wanted embryos at a time, in general, which have already proven themselves worthy of being outside of the womb) they are heralded, while someone who chooses to abort a pregnancy that was never wanted in the first place is treated like a scumbag, all because of how far along they were when they made the choice. That is so unfair.

I think it is silly to think that firemen should rescue frozen embryos which would probably be destroyed during the rescue process or after the IVF treatment is complete. I think it is silly to act as though people who want to get pregnant and go so far as to destroy 5 embryos just to get one pregnancy right, are somehow saints! And I am further appalled by how women are treated when they choose to have late term abortions, based on the social stigma attached to their decision. We do not know these women. These women account for the smallest percentage of all abortions, too! Most women would think it was too emotionally devastating to see what might as well be a "dead baby" coming out of her vagina, that anyone in their right mind is not going to make a decision like that based on nothing or based on reasons that we would consider to be ridiculous or petty.

I realize that some women WOULD make the decision for petty reasons, but how many, really? Ten a year? If that? Most doctors who do late term abortions have a screening process anyways, no doubt. Everyone has a screening process to take care of people who are moral and say fuck off to those who we cant stand to look at. If some 38 week pregnant woman called a doctors office and said that she wanted a late term abortion, Why would anyone think that the doctor would be so desperate for money that he would not tell her she had to wait until he had time in his schedule, which was a three or four week wait? By then the fetus would be overdue.

I mean, REALLY. Late term abortions being legal would NOT be a major issue, at all. Let's all please get real here, ok?

 

[AllieBaba]

Stop encouraging women to randomly fuck men they aren't interested in raising children with....problem solved.

 

[JD_2B]

Stop encouraging women to randomly fuck men they aren't interested in raising children with....problem solved.

And since when are all abortions caused by women fucking random men????

PS- Women are not the sexual gatekeepers. Save your Chastity belt for the convent, love.

 

[JenT]

Stop encouraging women to randomly fuck men they aren't interested in raising children with....problem solved.

And since when are all abortions caused by women fucking random men????

PS- Women are not the sexual gatekeepers. Save your Chastity belt for the convent, love.

Come on JD, ya gotta admit the majority are

oh wait...if they know his name is he still considered random?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I realize that some women WOULD make the decision for petty reasons, but how many, really? Ten a year? If that?

Once again


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).[/FONT]

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Social Reasons (given as primary reason)
- Feels unready for child/responsibility 25% - Feels she can't afford baby 23% - Has all the children she wants/Other family responsibilities 19% - Relationship problem/Single motherhood 8% - Feels she isn't mature enough 7% - Interference with education/career plans 4% - Parents/Partner wants abortion <1% - Other reasons <6.5% TOTAL: 93%
(Approx.)
"Hard Cases" (given as primary reason)
- Mother's Health 4% - Baby may have health problem 3% - Rape or Incest <0.5%


TOTAL:


7%
(Approx.)



*Source: Lawrence Finer, et. al, "Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions: Quantitative and Qualitative Perspectives" Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, Vol. 37 No. 3 (Sept., 2005) p. 110.

 

[&#9773;proletarian&#9773;]

[
Women are not the sexual gatekeepers.

Then shut the fuck up and open your legs, bitch. If you're no gatekeeper, you can't say no.

Congrats, you just said women are nothing more than toys, with no right or ability to chose whom they wish to have sex with.

You can't really be a female, when you spew such misogynistic bullshit throughout this thread.

 

[JD_2B]

Stop encouraging women to randomly fuck men they aren't interested in raising children with....problem solved.

And since when are all abortions caused by women fucking random men????

PS- Women are not the sexual gatekeepers. Save your Chastity belt for the convent, love.

Come on JD, ya gotta admit the majority are

oh wait...if they know his name is he still considered random?

I seriously doubt it!! The majority of women who abort already have kids.

Already have kids means that they are mothers. Being a mother means that you do not get a whole lot of opportunity to go out. It also means that you do not bring a whole lot of men home with you, out of concern for your children.
The majority of women who abort are not married, but one should not decide that they do not cohabitate with the father, based on that. Actually, these days, the marriage rate decreasing has nothing to do with having kids and living together, just like married people. Many couples decide to live together and have kids, and just put off getting married, for whatever reason.
Even if these were single moms who do not cohabitate, it would stand to reason that they have even less time on their hands to go out to bars and clubs and what not, spreading the love, so to speak.

I don't know how you can possibly go from someone not wanting to be pregnant directly to them being a slut. Not wanting to be pregnant is something that can happen to anyone, and actually DOES happen to about 50% of all women in the world, at one point in their lives.

So, are you saying that 50% of all of the women in the world are hos, just because YOU disagree with their ability to decide to have an abortion??