What should abortion laws be?

[JenT]

Just to clarify, at what point would you place the line for illegal abortion? As I said, I believe that the first trimester is a good point but could see it going out to 4 months maybe 5 but I am not sure I am all right with 5 months. That seems to be the best place for sentience – my stance of why the line needs to be drawn.

That's the hard part. The issue is we aren't at the point that we know at what point we're dealing with a human life or just a sack of cells I, like most rationale people, believe that it occurs sometime during pregnancy. So the best you can do is draw a line at the latest point we know we're really just dealing with an organization of cells. The one thing I have come to change my mind about in this thread is Roe v. Wade, because I think for the most part they got it right. my position would be you can have an abortion anytime before the end of the first trimester for any reason, after that there needs to be an issue of the mother's health being in jeopardy. I would also be open to the idea of a separate law dealing specifically with illegal abortions.

If I could say how the law went, I wouldn't go after the mom at all. I'd nail the doctor to the wall, and anyone who made a profit at it as well.

It's just like the drug addict and the drug dealer in my mind. Tons of compassion for the drug addict. The man making money at it though...that's a whole different duck.

And the pro-abortion politicians should be rounded up with them. But that can only happen in God's judgment.

 

[Father Time]

JenT please stop calling abortion murder, it isn't murder, is a freaking legal term, so to call it murder over and over is just emotional rhetoric.

FT, a rose is a rose by any other name.

And by definition abortion ain't murder.

murder
–noun
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Murder Definition | Definition of Murder at Dictionary.com

The only other definitions are slang term for something difficult or a flock of crows.

Just because the Supreme Court can't figure out that life = life, doesn't make the killing of that life any less murder. Legalized murder, does that help?

Legalized murder is an oxymoron.

It's bad, FT, but in God's eyes lying is as bad as murder, it's all sin.

Your God has some screwy priorities if that's the case (although I fail to see the relevance because God doesn't write the laws around here).

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for anything they've done in the past.

You could've fooled me.

But it is murder, FT, and anyone considering it should know that. At conception, they are who they are to be.

It's not murder, you don't get to change the definition of murder to try make people think it's wrong.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Viability is another concern, separate from sentience. A sentient adult is not necessarily a viable adult, especially after a gunshot or a car wreck. However, the question of viability and whether they can be saved mostly comes into play after it's determined that they are either confirmed or likely sentient.

Again, I see abortion and braindeath as effectively the same fundamental issue- when is it acceptable to end a human life?

Edit:: This falls under the broader question of when it's okay to end any life- a connection i tried to make evident with the animal rights thread that died out.

And see, I don't think it's okay to end a human life at all (except in cases of self-defense). It's something else entirely to let someone go who's already dead to all intents and purposes than it is to actively kill him.

And here semantics become important. If we define 'kill' as simply ending the life of the prgnaism, per the standard definition, then I emphatically disagree. If we instead mean to end the existence of the individual as such, then we're back to sentience and braindeath. There are other matters, such as capital punishment, but those would be better addressed elsewhere.

That is where the terms "actively" and "self-defense" come into play. I consider capital punishment to be self-defense on behalf of society. And yes, by "kill" I DO mean ending the life of the organism. And no, there is no "back to sentience and brain death". "Actively kill" means deliberately ending someone's life yourself, as opposed to simply allowing the death that has already happened to finish running its course. It's the difference between shutting off a respirator for someone whose brain is too far gone to control respiration on its own and putting a pillow over someone's face. I have no problem with the first, but a very big problem with the second.

 

[JenT]

JenT please stop calling abortion murder, it isn't murder, is a freaking legal term, so to call it murder over and over is just emotional rhetoric.

FT, a rose is a rose by any other name.

And by definition abortion ain't murder.

murder
–noun
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Murder Definition | Definition of Murder at Dictionary.com

The only other definitions are slang term for something difficult or a flock of crows.


Legalized murder is an oxymoron.



Your God has some screwy priorities if that's the case (although I fail to see the relevance because God doesn't write the laws around here).

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for anything they've done in the past.

You could've fooled me.

But it is murder, FT, and anyone considering it should know that. At conception, they are who they are to be.

It's not murder, you don't get to change the definition of murder to try make people think it's wrong.

The "law" that you think exonerates abortion of all criminal components is only the opinion of the majority sitting on the US Supreme Court. A court which is supposed to adhere to the Constitution. According to Judge Reinquist on that court:

"…To reach its result, the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. …. The only conclusion possible from this history is that the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter."​

And did you know that the Hypocratic Oath of doctors had to be changed in 1964 to allow abortion? Since the 4th Century BEFORE Christ, swearing to Greek gods:

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.​

Abortion has been considered wrong throughout history until just lately. The Supreme Court rules and suddenly murder is not murder?

Only in the blind eyes of a deceived and murderous people.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's an old belief people used to have before they really understood brain function (not that we aren't still largely ignorant on that score, but we're closer). People believed that we were only using 10 percent of our brain and the potential of the rest was going untapped.

In JD's case, it might be accurate.

That supposes there's anything else in there to be tapped.

 

[Father Time]

FT, a rose is a rose by any other name.

And by definition abortion ain't murder.

murder
–noun
1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Murder Definition | Definition of Murder at Dictionary.com

The only other definitions are slang term for something difficult or a flock of crows.


Legalized murder is an oxymoron.



Your God has some screwy priorities if that's the case (although I fail to see the relevance because God doesn't write the laws around here).



You could've fooled me.

But it is murder, FT, and anyone considering it should know that. At conception, they are who they are to be.

It's not murder, you don't get to change the definition of murder to try make people think it's wrong.

The "law" that you think exonerates abortion of all criminal components is only the opinion of the majority sitting on the US Supreme Court. A court which is supposed to adhere to the Constitution. According to Judge Reinquist on that court:

"…To reach its result, the Court necessarily has had to find within the scope of the Fourteenth Amendment a right that was apparently completely unknown to the drafters of the Amendment. …. The only conclusion possible from this history is that the drafters did not intend to have the Fourteenth Amendment withdraw from the States the power to legislate with respect to this matter."​

Oh I get it the opinions of the court only matter when they agree with you. Like it or not the Supreme Court gets the final ruling on matters of law.

And did you know that the Hypocratic Oath of doctors had to be changed in 1964 to allow abortion? Since the 4th Century BEFORE Christ, swearing to Greek gods:

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary to cause an abortion.​

This is relevant how?

Abortion has been considered wrong throughout history until just lately.

OFFS not appeal to tradition crap. Slavery has existed throughout most of human history and was not gotten rid of in the US till relatively recently.

The Supreme Court rules and suddenly murder is not murder?

Yes, you see murder is a legal term and so they changed what constitutes murder. Legal definitions can change.

Only in the blind eyes of a deceived and murderous people.

Or those who understand how law works.

 

[JD_2B]

...Again- Because now you are veering off topic as usual, Show me how a woman being forced through a 9 month pregnancy, all because she did not find out until the last day of the third trimester, can or SHOULD, TRANSFER her FETUS to another person.

Hon, I think we make that choice when we play around with mating for purposes, apparently and sadly, for sport sex. Surprise pregnancies, IMO, can turn into blessings if we just let what we already created, live.

So can pregnancies that result in rape, but that doesn't seem to generally apply here either. PS- Sex for sport is not going to stop any time in the forseeable future, so asking women to close their legs, is going to be fruitless. We are not the sexual gatekeepers.

Nope.. They have every right to make their own decisions in regards to this. Stop mischaracterizing my position.. It has gone beyond "little brother" annoying now. It is really REALLY sad and pathetic.

If I understand this right, it always amazes me. There's a LIFE at stake here. The selfish insistance of the mom that is facing consequences for playing around doesn't earn her the right to murder.

There are so many alternatives to that. 9 months is not a death sentence, only abortion is. [/quote]

Only in YOUR subjective opinion. In my opinion, 9 months can be a death sentence for a great deal of women. Maybe not in the physical sense, but in many other capacities, it is.

This one is a physiological inevitability- a parent must take care of themselves, first, to be CAPABLE of caring for the kids. Go ahead and quote a portion of that one, too, so you can mischaracterize it, you social ******* reject.

If you are incapable of caring for, or choose not to, there are LONG LINES of people anxiously waiting to adopt. Its not easy to give up a child for adoption, but if you really don't want it, there is always that option.

There are also long lines of people waiting for a surrogate parent.. Does that mean that because my body is CAPABLE of giving such a socialized service, that everyone else should inevitably be entitled to me doing such a thing? No. I dont CARE how many people WANT babies. They can just as easily adopt a 5 year old or a 12 year old, also. They don't NEED a ******* BABY, and they SURE dont need MINE, just because one existed in my uterus. Furthermore, this is not about DEATH, this is about PREGNANCY, and a woman being able to decide whether she wants to be IN that condition, for the apparent mental health of all of society, or not.
It is just something that you are going to have to deal with if she chooses to NOT.

And when they grow up and look you in the eyes and say "thank you" and you see the reality of the person they have become, wow, there's just no question in my mind, abortion is just so wrong.

I have a son. Your emotional rhetoric means nothing to me, because my situation with my son, was much different than my situation with the pregnancy I terminated, which did NOT result in a baby, regardless of how or what you think.

But like I've written in columns, if you've already aborted and regret it now, don't beat yourself up, we were all young and deceived. God through Christ forgives and forgets and that child was never an accident, he or she IS with God. They've actually avoided the testing ground in a world that can be so painful.

God is just SO good.

I dont regret my abortion AT ALL. I think you probably regret your adoption though. How does it feel knowing that you have a child out there, who has to go through life not knowing his mother and father, and apparently, grandparents, and feeling unwanted, at least by those people? All because YOU were too selfish to talk to your dad's parents, or go out of YOUR way and find a family that was close to your own family, so that you could be a part of that child's life?
Don't talk to me about selfishness, or keeping your legs closed, when it is clear to me that you are the only one between the two of us who was unscrupulous enough to make ALL of those decisions based SOLELY on how YOU felt, and not how everyone around you would feel, or help, or survive, as well. I, personally, did not MAKE my decision without thinking about everyone involved first. Lucky for me, I do not have to WORRY about it, because MY decision did not AFFECT a sentient individual the way yours obviously did!!!
This is total bullshit, and as long as you are spreading propaganda that you selfishly deem to be moral FOR YOU ALONE, then anyone else making a decision that is for THEM alone is justified in the same way. Period.

 

[JD_2B]

That's an old belief people used to have before they really understood brain function (not that we aren't still largely ignorant on that score, but we're closer). People believed that we were only using 10 percent of our brain and the potential of the rest was going untapped.

In JD's case, it might be accurate.

That supposes there's anything else in there to be tapped.

Ad Hominems do nothing to further your argument.

 

[JD_2B]

I can't tell you how much I wished I contacted my boyfriend's parents before giving my first up for adoption. If I had gotten the slightest bit of encouragement and help to keep my first, I would have. But the father didn't want me to, so I didn't.

It turned out that they never had any other grandchildren and my sons grandma, I don't know if she can ever forgive me for not giving her the chance to know her only grandchild. I've tried to encourage him to meet them, but he won't. Or hasn't gotten around to it yet.

So I look at my sons and tell them, DONT get anyone pregnant, but if you do, and my grandchild gets aborted, well, nobody has seen "wrath" from me before. Nobody had better ever harm any of my future grandchildren! If so, there WILL be consequences.

Bottom line:

=

we were ALL just that at one time and NOBODY should have the right to murder us in our most vulnerable stage.

It is not your fault that your ex boyfriend did not want children, or that his parents did not have grandkids. Stop beating yourself up over it, already.

PS- Did YOUR parents tell you that you could talk to them any time, if you were pregnant, and that you would support any decision you made? I highly doubt it. In fact, if you had gotten "any" encouragement to become a parent, any offer of support, then your decision might have been much different.
Also, if something other than you not wanting a child at that time, had been going on in your life, then your decision may have been much different also.

People do not start grow up with some thought in their heads that they will EVER feel the need to give a child up for adoption or abort. Did YOU ever have to ponder that consideration before you got pregnant??

I support your decision, though. I am just sorry that you cannot find it in yourself to be supportive of any decisions your sons might make, that might differ somewhat from your own. In fact, telling them NOT to get a girl pregnant in the first place, is almost giving them a little more fuel for, when the time comes, they DO manage to get a girl pregnant. What makes you think that they will feel AT ALL comfortable with coming to you for advice, when you have already told them that PREGNANCY is not allowed, in and of itself? You are FORCING your sons into making a decision that they might not be comfortable with, and that the mother might not be comfortable with. YOU have to understand that not all of your kids' girlfriends are going to share in your way of thinking, and also- blaming your boys for ANY of it, is not going to do anything good for your relationship with them.

I do not support ANYONE being SO coercive in making decisions for another person, whatsoever. To say that there will be WRATH inflicted, is a THREAT of HARM to anyone who dares have a different opinion or makes a different decision than what you deem worthy.

YOUR body= YOUR decision..

Your son's girlfriend's body= HER decision.. Get it?

nah

MY grandchildren = MY GRANDCHILDREN

Once they are born, only THEN do they BECOME your grandchildren, and even still, you will even be SO lucky to not be in an experience like what Jen T was in, and have to never know whether the girl gave them up for adoption, like Jen did, or aborted. Your son's girlfriend's bodies do not belong to you, so staking a claim on them is impossible.

heh, and my kids know I'm a pushover when they disobey me. I've never been very strict or punitive with them at all and I haven't had to, they always amaze me. Their teachers have told me... let's just say my kids have sterling reputations, even though lately they've gotten into a little trouble, lol, let's just say nobody can point their fingers at my kids and say "how dare you criticize the schools, look at your own kids"

Thats good, but irrelevant..

I think it's because in times of trouble we've prayed about stuff. They don't answer to me, they answer to God. But if they mess with my grandchildren, WRATH. TONS OF WRATH like they have never seen and they know it.

You are aware, Miss God Fearing Christian, that Wrath is a deadly sin, right?
As is preaching about it..

And just by having met their big brother, spending time with him, wrestling with him, I'm certain they wouldn't abort any anyway. Or pressure a girl to abort hers.

LOL!! Because wrestling her brother is SOOOO indicative of her stance on abortion, or how she would react if she had an unwanted pregnancy. OKAY.

If she aborts hers against their wishes, not a lot can be done about that. But if I hear they pressured any girl to abort, it's OVER. That's what happened to me, by so many, and if my sons do that to anyone else...wow. There will be consequences like never before.

Is all I'm sayin.

Ahh so YOU are mad because YOU were pressured into having an abortion, signing an informed consent form, etc, with some kind of gun to your head (NOT) and now you want to blame your sons for that??

Sick!!!!

 

[Bern80]

Boy was that VAGUE!!!!

So, you're still not answering the question, ey, Bernie??? LMAO!!! Figures!!

Who are you responding to here? I don't see the vagueness in my response. I have quite directly answered your questions. Perhaps you would see that if you actually replied to MY response to you (post 410) rather than going through someone else's response to me. Quid pro quo dear. You make an awful lot of demands and presumptions of other people but apparently what you demand of others does not apply to you in turn.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

And see, I don't think it's okay to end a human life at all (except in cases of self-defense). It's something else entirely to let someone go who's already dead to all intents and purposes than it is to actively kill him.

And here semantics become important. If we define 'kill' as simply ending the life of the prgnaism, per the standard definition, then I emphatically disagree. If we instead mean to end the existence of the individual as such, then we're back to sentience and braindeath. There are other matters, such as capital punishment, but those would be better addressed elsewhere.

That is where the terms "actively" and "self-defense" come into play. I consider capital punishment to be self-defense on behalf of society. And yes, by "kill" I DO mean ending the life of the organism. And no, there is no "back to sentience and brain death". "Actively kill" means deliberately ending someone's life yourself, as opposed to simply allowing the death that has already happened to finish running its course. It's the difference between shutting off a respirator for someone whose brain is too far gone to control respiration on its own and putting a pillow over someone's face. I have no problem with the first, but a very big problem with the second.

What of allowing someone to die who could be saved? At what point does failing to help someone become killing them? if I have a celox plunger some duct tape, a square of plastic sheeting, and the know-how, at what point does not controlling the bleeding and applying a butterfly valve become comparable less to removing the respirator on a braindead person and more like turning it off in the ambulance en route to medical care tpo save their life?

At what point does walking away from someone hanging off a cliff become tantamount to stepping on their fingers?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

That's an old belief people used to have before they really understood brain function (not that we aren't still largely ignorant on that score, but we're closer). People believed that we were only using 10 percent of our brain and the potential of the rest was going untapped.

In JD's case, it might be accurate.

That supposes there's anything else in there to be tapped.

I must have faith in human potential...

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Only in YOUR subjective opinion. In my opinion, 9 months can be a death sentence for a great deal of women. Maybe not in the physical sense, but in many other capacities, it is.

Yeah, it just kills their love life

I dont regret my abortion AT ALL.

Then why have you spent this entire thread and the fetus in a box thread trying to justify it to yourself and deny that your child was a live and that you killed it?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

In JD's case, it might be accurate.

That supposes there's anything else in there to be tapped.

Ad Hominems do nothing to further your argument.

That's not an ad hom, it's an insult, you twit.

Back to you skipping English class....

 

[JD_2B]

That supposes there's anything else in there to be tapped.

Ad Hominems do nothing to further your argument.

That's not an ad hom, it's an insult, you twit.

Back to you skipping English class....

In this case, the insult was made as an attempt to discredit an argument, twit.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Ad Hominems do nothing to further your argument.

That's not an ad hom, it's an insult, you twit.

Back to you skipping English class....

In this case, the insult was made as an attempt to discredit an argument, twit.

Wrong again, genius. It was simply an insult-cum-valid observation about your insufficient intellect.

 

[JD_2B]

Only in YOUR subjective opinion. In my opinion, 9 months can be a death sentence for a great deal of women. Maybe not in the physical sense, but in many other capacities, it is.

Yeah, it just kills their love life

Actually, most people enjoy the freedom of not having to worry about getting pregnant, and have MORE sex than usual when they are pregnant.

Some, however, have to deal with an immediate career change as a result of being pregnant. For instance, women are often questioned when they are entering politics on whether they plan on undergoing any pregnancies during their term. Females who race cars as either a profession or a hobby, generally would have to stop taking part in this aspect of their lives. Models and actresses are highly affected by pregnancy, if they have not yet made themselves famous. Even after becoming famous, the female form is so highly regarded, that their career may go kersplat as a result of the pregnancy. Other examples of professions in which pregnancy is not an option is with physicists of all sorts- as well as even the farmer's widowed wife, or heirs to companies, including highly successful ones, which can lose a lot of money due to shareholders selling, because they are scared that the new CEO is not going to focus on the company. That, and family businesses like a little restaurant, and having to suddenly take care of it, as well any other family, and having a pregnancy, just do not go together very well.
I could sit here and list a thousand valid reasons why someone might opt for an abortion after the first trimester ends, but what good would it do? You do not look at the big picture, at all, anyways, no matter how many times it is presented to you. Your mind is made up.
If you had a uterus, then maybe you could understand better that it is indeed a woman's property, and not the property of the masses, so they do not have any right to make any decision regarding her uterus..

[

quote]
I dont regret my abortion AT ALL.

Then why have you spent this entire thread and the fetus in a box thread trying to justify it to yourself and deny that your child was a live and that you killed it?[/quote]

The same reason YOU have. I feel strongly that a woman has the right to make her own decisions. You feel adamantly against that. YOU do not need to have faced making a decision like that to have an opinion about it, and neither does anyone else. Just because I am your strongest opponent, does not mean that I am your opponent because I somehow regret my abortion, you dillhole.

 

[JD_2B]

Boy was that VAGUE!!!!

So, you're still not answering the question, ey, Bernie??? LMAO!!! Figures!!

Who are you responding to here? I don't see the vagueness in my response. I have quite directly answered your questions. Perhaps you would see that if you actually replied to MY response to you (post 410) rather than going through someone else's response to me. Quid pro quo dear. You make an awful lot of demands and presumptions of other people but apparently what you demand of others does not apply to you in turn.

I do not want women to be prosecuted for abortion. Hence, it DOES NOT apply to me, that I expect YOU to back your own claim up that abortion after a certain point should be punished, and asking you exactly HOW that would happen.

Sooooo Answer the question! How should she be punished? You have been REALLY specific as to when abortion should be illegal, so you MUST know that being ILLEGAL means that it is PUNISHABLE.
Specifically, HOW would a woman who broke this law be punished???

Specifically.

Specifically.

Specifically.

Lather, rinse, and ******* repeat.

 

[Bern80]

Boy was that VAGUE!!!!

So, you're still not answering the question, ey, Bernie??? LMAO!!! Figures!!

Who are you responding to here? I don't see the vagueness in my response. I have quite directly answered your questions. Perhaps you would see that if you actually replied to MY response to you (post 410) rather than going through someone else's response to me. Quid pro quo dear. You make an awful lot of demands and presumptions of other people but apparently what you demand of others does not apply to you in turn.

I do not want women to be prosecuted for abortion. Hence, it DOES NOT apply to me, that I expect YOU to back your own claim up that abortion after a certain point should be punished, and asking you exactly HOW that would happen.

Sooooo Answer the question! How should she be punished? You have been REALLY specific as to when abortion should be illegal, so you MUST know that being ILLEGAL means that it is PUNISHABLE.
Specifically, HOW would a woman who broke this law be punished???

Specifically.

Specifically.

Specifically.

Lather, rinse, and ******* repeat.

I again refer you to post 410. I'm not going to re-type all of that because you're lazy. On top of which I have some SPECIFIC questions for you. Again quid pro quo dear.

 

[JenT]

It is not your fault that your ex boyfriend did not want children, or that his parents did not have grandkids. Stop beating yourself up over it, already.

PS- Did YOUR parents tell you that you could talk to them any time, if you were pregnant, and that you would support any decision you made? I highly doubt it. In fact, if you had gotten "any" encouragement to become a parent, any offer of support, then your decision might have been much different.
Also, if something other than you not wanting a child at that time, had been going on in your life, then your decision may have been much different also.

People do not start grow up with some thought in their heads that they will EVER feel the need to give a child up for adoption or abort. Did YOU ever have to ponder that consideration before you got pregnant??

I support your decision, though. I am just sorry that you cannot find it in yourself to be supportive of any decisions your sons might make, that might differ somewhat from your own. In fact, telling them NOT to get a girl pregnant in the first place, is almost giving them a little more fuel for, when the time comes, they DO manage to get a girl pregnant. What makes you think that they will feel AT ALL comfortable with coming to you for advice, when you have already told them that PREGNANCY is not allowed, in and of itself? You are FORCING your sons into making a decision that they might not be comfortable with, and that the mother might not be comfortable with. YOU have to understand that not all of your kids' girlfriends are going to share in your way of thinking, and also- blaming your boys for ANY of it, is not going to do anything good for your relationship with them.

I do not support ANYONE being SO coercive in making decisions for another person, whatsoever. To say that there will be WRATH inflicted, is a THREAT of HARM to anyone who dares have a different opinion or makes a different decision than what you deem worthy.

YOUR body= YOUR decision..

Your son's girlfriend's body= HER decision.. Get it?

nah

MY grandchildren = MY GRANDCHILDREN

Once they are born, only THEN do they BECOME your grandchildren, and even still, you will even be SO lucky to not be in an experience like what Jen T was in, and have to never know whether the girl gave them up for adoption, like Jen did, or aborted. Your son's girlfriend's bodies do not belong to you, so staking a claim on them is impossible.



Thats good, but irrelevant..



You are aware, Miss God Fearing Christian, that Wrath is a deadly sin, right?
As is preaching about it..

And just by having met their big brother, spending time with him, wrestling with him, I'm certain they wouldn't abort any anyway. Or pressure a girl to abort hers.

LOL!! Because wrestling her brother is SOOOO indicative of her stance on abortion, or how she would react if she had an unwanted pregnancy. OKAY.

If she aborts hers against their wishes, not a lot can be done about that. But if I hear they pressured any girl to abort, it's OVER. That's what happened to me, by so many, and if my sons do that to anyone else...wow. There will be consequences like never before.

Is all I'm sayin.

Ahh so YOU are mad because YOU were pressured into having an abortion, signing an informed consent form, etc, with some kind of gun to your head (NOT) and now you want to blame your sons for that??

Sick!!!!

JD, you have some long posts, so do I. I haven't read all of yours, you haven't read mine. I think that explains why you seem to be getting really confused in this last post. You're responding to "JenT" and talking to me "JenT" as though we're different people.

Second, I didn't have an abortion, so no I'm not mad that I was pressured into having an abortion, I sold everything I had and bought a one way bus ticket instead. I was rather ticked off at a woman that told me to have an abortion because I wasn't married though, just because I wasn't married didn't mean her child should live and mine should die.

And it was my plan prior to getting pregnant, to have an abortion. Like everyone else, I bought into the lie. I just couldn't go through with it. Held some hands for friends though that did. A lot of them are really bitter that prince charming never came along and they never had more. I don't blame them in the slightest. They were deceived. We all were.

We were all once a couple of cells. And my grandchildren in the womb are still my grandchildren in the womb. If that ever happens, it's a piece of my son, my very own flesh and blood in that woman's womb. There are genes of MINE in that womb. I can't stop her from killing it if she chooses, but if she does, she IS killing a part of ME. That's REALITY. Because at the point of conception, it's already decided if he or she will look like me, will laugh like me, what hair color they will have, what eyes, personality, all of it.

My sons won't be able to stop her either, thanks to the murderous laws of this country. But if he pressures her to abort, I don't think there is much they could do that would hurt me worse. But I think they know better. I think they know that if it came to it, I'd be grateful for that child and they could continue on with college or whatever it is they're doing and still have a child. They really are amazing blessings, ya know. And yes, I do regret having given up my first son for adoption, very much so. But looking at him today, the thought of aborting him...its just not an option. And nobody, NOBODY, should have given me that option when I was young, weak, vulnerable and insecure.

As soon as we're pregnant, our hormones go WILD. We're emotional rollercoasters for a couple of months. Pressuring or leading a woman to make that choice at that time is, IMO, lower than dirt.

It's a life. You act as though at that point it's a choice but at that point it's already a fact of LIFE. You're choosing to destroy what already is. It's not a crossroads, it's a cessation. And it's murder.