I agree that a 9 month gestated fetus should be birthed. I personally cannot see myself ever aborting at this stage. However, the argument you have here is emotional, not one based on anything factual. See, you can't adopt a fetus while it is still in it's mothers uterus, without taking her with it. I would like to see that happen. LMAO!!
And, it is not RIGHT to force a woman to have a C-section or induce a delivery, just because you want her to have a live birth.
Oh and lets be clear about the differences between a live birth and the birth of a "viable" fetus.
A viable fetus isn't very fucking viable if it is born in a taxicab, or out in the middle of nowhere, in some mud hut somewhere, where access to life
As a matter of fact, in many cases it does. My son was born almost an entire month early and he did not need any medical attention. Though he was born in a hospital and had jaundice he was put in our arms and never left them until we left the hospital, no doctors did more than look at him.
Well, my son was born three days late, and his lung collapsed, and he DID need medical attention.
Whats your point?
Conceivably, you could take a child several months early and still have it come to term in medical care without the mother. Your position is rather than force a woman to undergo a simple procedure or suffer through a day of live birth we should force a child to be cut into small pieces! Your attacks and language are not covering for the straw man. You still are lacking an argument for personal responsibility.
Only conceivably. Thats a potential argument.
Potentially, a Freshman in College will become a doctor, but we don't give him rights to perform surgery, now do we??
And the medical care is a social responsibility, not an entitlement. You can't keep everyone on life support forever, just because you are scared that they will "die".
Also, you are using emotionally misguided, and misguiding rhetoric, by even calling it a child. The scientifically accurate term is "fetus". I have also not attacked you at all.. Quite the opposite, really.
Also, what personal responsibility do you refer to? Abortions are expensive- costing from 400 dollars to 800 dollars just to have it done in the first few months. The woman almost ALWAYS pays for that entirely out of pocket. How is that not taking responsibility? Pregnancies can end in any number of ways. Taking responsibility for how it ends in one way, over another, is a moot point.
I understand that, and while I agree that those are immoral, I will not say that they should be illegal. There are a lot of things that are immoral that should not be illegal.
If a woman does not want something inside of her, she should not be under some morally based legal obligation (based on the average emotional person thinking that removing it using force is wrong or immoral) to keep it there.
Youre damn right it should be illegal and there is not a SINGLE GOD DAMN ARGUMENT OUT THERE THAT RESONABLE SUPPORTS PARTAL BIRTH ABORTIONS AS THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHED DURING THE BIRTHING PROSESS. Got that. It is coming out already and in some cases IS out. That is the insane argument you are making here. If that is your true belief, then please late abort yourself
The term "Partial birth abortion" is a myth. It is NOT partially born, whatsoever. You have obviously been duped by anti abortion propaganda. Also, the Supreme Court banned "Intact Dilation and Extraction" for the most part, in Gonzales v Carhart. Unfortunately, they called it the "Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act", which is misleading as to what actually happens during this procedure. The feet and body come out up to the neck, and then a sharp instrument is shoved into the base of the skull. The head itself is not removed, prior to the brains being suctioned out, which causes the head to become small enough to pull out entirely. In a "birth", the Cervix must be dilated fully, except in cases of a C-section.
Often, the later on a woman is in the pregnancy, the more of a chance there is that she is already dilating between 1 and 3 centimeters.
Cervical dilation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If a fetus has a hydrocephalus, then it will almost surely die or be severely disabled. For some parents, especially low income ones, or ones who are disabled themselves, there is no point in delivering this fetus, either vaginally or by C-section.
Hydrocephalus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sorry, the nasty side of me comes out when you condone partial birth abortions as they are obviously murder. It is the single largest travesty about the abortion issue.
No, murder is a legal term. Abortion is legal. In some cases, IDE (intact dilation and extraction) is legal. You are using terminology that emotionally misguides the reader, as a method of misinforming them of what actually happens during the abortion.
I have also said- I personally would probably not have a late term abortion of any kind. I can say that with ease, though, because I am not disabled, and my family has no genetic issues that can (potentially) cause massive complications during pregnancy or after birth. The fact that I do not call the sometimes disabled parents of fetuses who are facing taking care of a child with massive disabilities, a seemingly impossible task, MURDERERS just because they need the abortion for medical, physical, or even merciful emotional or sociological reasons, is OKAY. This kind of procedure is VERY rare, and only called for in the most dire of conditions.
Most people would not terminate a pregnancy for no fucking reason at all, at that stage, Cecile. Stop being so absurd.
I pointed out in my earlier post that what you say is untrue. We have active brain activity and can reasonable determine what said activity indicates. Since you are lazy and incompetent at actual sourcing
Fetal Psychology
At 32 weeks, it drowses 90 to 95% of the day. Some of these hours are spent in deep sleep, some in REM sleep, and some in an indeterminate state, a product of the fetus' immature brain that is different from sleep in a baby, child, or adult.
During REM sleep, the fetus' eyes move back and forth just as an adult's eyes do, and many researchers believe that it is dreaming. DiPietro speculates that fetuses dream about what they know - the sensations they feel in the womb.
Duly noted- We do have brain activity. I have never contested that. Mice dream too.. at least according to these neurological sleep studies. WE ALL have working brains and memories. That is not an indicator of being sentient, or achieving personhood, or having a right to life, when the fetus is within an actual living person. Also, this link came from a bible-beater website, and I have no doubt that it is chock full of misinformation designed to misguide people into caring too much for a fetus over the mother. The fetus is STILL subjected to having a breathing, living woman encasing it, to remain a growing organism. (lather rinse, repeat again and again)
No amount of fetal sentience, either real or imagined, will ever change that.
http://graphoniac.wordpress.com/2009/02/11/fetal-brain-activity-28-weeks-pregnant/
Fetal Brain Activity 28 Weeks Pregnant « Graphoniac
Week 28 of Pregnancy: Fetal Brain Activity
Are you dreaming about your baby?
Your baby may be dreaming about you, too. Brain wave activity measured in a developing fetus shows different sleep cycles, including the rapid eye movement phase, the stage when dreaming occurs.
MAY be. There is JUST no conclusive evidence showing that this brain activity is indicative of sentience, or that thumb sucking is anything more than a reflexive response. It is also not conclusive that mice dreams are anything more than memories, and memories are not a definitive indicator of sentience, either.
http://cds.ismrm.org/ismrm-2000/PDF3/0875.pdf - A medical journal on fetal brain response to
music
There are a lot more but you can go looking for some yourself.
[/QUOTE]
What a crock. That study says that even though they did 30 reps of the music and silence on the fetus, they could only analyze 5 out of the 30 reps, for the study and this was in three out of 14 of the occassions, based on motion of the mother versus motion of the fetus, and involuntary bowel movements, etc.
It is not conclusive, at all.
Also, a fetus having a REACTION is much akin to a reflex, and is not the same thing as being sentient. The fact that it CAN hear, and reflex when it does hear something, does not indicate that it understands or can process what it heard, it only shows that the fetus HEARD it. If the portion of the brain that controls hearing was not functional, then the fetus would not hear it, that is why the study detected brain activity. The fetus actually making a movement is not indicative that the movement was in response to any music whatsoever. This study had no conclusion, and SAID ITSELF that their technology was inadequate to come to a conclusion.
And that was the point. Are you really that dense? The man has no choice to shove off the responsibility; it is ALL on the woman.
He can take responsibility for having sex, also. Women are not the sexual gatekeepers. If you want to argue this, then you have to concede that much. Women do not choose to get pregnant any more than men choose to get them pregnant. There are no "guilty parties" in this, besides both of the people who had sex to begin with. Sorry, honey, but as long as the man never married the woman, he really has no say in the matter. He is not her "partner", he is just her "sperm donor", and until THAT problem is rectified, then he has no REASON to try to make any claim about what she does with her body. The problem is not with people having SEX, it is with people having sex before they are married, and women being made to be the villains, without fail. If she becomes an unwed single parent, she is also vilified. Men who are required to pay child support are treated as victims, as usual. If they are late, the family, friends, and employers they have actually feel sorry for them. Men can actually use the argument "I need this job- I am late on my child support payments!" and actually get some empathy from an employer. Women who say "I have a child I have to support alone, whose father has never given me a penny to help" are treated like whores. This is how life is, and it is not equal, and not fair to women.
SHE gets to decide whether or not the man is allowed to put the child up for adoption, have an abortion, or even to release him from the obligation. I did not whine about this at all, I believe the man should be held accountable. IT WAS YOU THAT WHINED THAT THE SAME SHOULD NOT GO FOR THE WOMAN. YOU think that a woman should not be held accountable for getting pregnant; all she has to do is get an abortion. You fail to realize that the woman should also be held accountable.
Again, if the man is married to the woman, she cannot give it up for adoption. You make this claim as if it is across the board, but much can be said for personal responsibility on both sides of the token.
A woman IS entirely responsible for the pregnancy and the child she births or the fetus she does not birth if she is not married to the father. You want everyone to think of woman as the brakes and men as the gas. That is not how it works, anymore.
Show a SINGLE statistic here. Shut the fuck up if all you are going to do is LIE. Wagers are garnished, homes taken and the law comes back to a man that does not pay with an iron fist. I have seen it before.
Sure- I have seen that happen too. Shame that men go so long without supporting their children. It is NOT a shame that the women actually go and hire an attorney to fulfill the judgment and collect the male's obligation.
Still, about 95% of all unpaid child support is NOT collected.
Here is from the Office of the Inspector General, on medicare granted health care workers, mostly physicians in arrears:
FINDINGS
At Least Two Thirds of Absent Parents in Our Sample Were Not Current in Meeting Their Child Support Obligations.
Of 210 non-custodial parents in a sample which we drew for further analysis, only 53 were current in making payments both to meet their monthly support obligations and to reduce their arrears. A total of 140 were delinquent in meeting their monthly obligations, in reducing arrears, or both. (The remaining 17 records were incomplete.
http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-07-95-00390.pdf
http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-06-06-00070.pdf
Excellent, if you have a child and I dont want to take care of it I will just hire a hit man, that is taking responsibility after all.
For that to work, then you would have to have the hit man kill the woman, in order to destroy the fetus. That is murder.
Abortion doctors are not hit men, they are health care practitioners, and are practicing legally. There is nothing wrong with evacuating the uterus, any more than it is wrong to evacuate the bowels, or the clogged artery. If something is causing you problems, the common response it to get rid of it.
As stated above, in many partial birth abortions (which you seem to support and all your arguments go out the window) and late term abortions it can. It has already been pointed out to you that there are many children who survive their mother while in the womb from an accident or other tragedy. I fail to see how the lack of a death certificate actually means anything either. If you fail to get one you never were truly alive!!! PROOF JESUS IS A MYTH he could not have been alive as he does not have a death certificate.
I didnt say that one needed a birth certficate to be alive. Only recently did we even start using certificates to track lineage. However, fetuses and conceptions are not tracked on geneology charts. I do understand that sometimes a fetus will survive a fender bender. That does not change the risk it has that it may have been a full on crash, in which the woman stopped breathing for a minute or two. You cannot deny that the fetus is prone to all dangers and risks that the woman is prone to.
Another thing- if a woman is already financially impaired (which is the case with most abortions) or already has all the children she wants, for the time being, why should that be some kind of "inexcusable reasoning", to you- for her to choose not to have her next pregnancy come to term, as opposed to her conceiving a ZEF which ended up lacking a brain?
That is why the first trimester term. Is that really to much strain on you that you cant decide in that time frame?
You ignored the rest of my post- Some women do not even find out that they are pregnant or that something is seriously wrong, until later on in the pregnancy. Is it really such a strain on you that you cannot imagine such an event occurring as this??
