What Kind of State in Israel?

[irosie91]

"because' habibi There are all kinds of "laws" in the world In Saudi arabia there are LAWS denying ----KAFFIRIN the right to visit the birth place of the filthy stinking rapist pig Muhummad----to wit MECCA Who made that "LAW"??? it is the law of that land-----the epicenter of the filth-----ARABIA Are you suggesting that the only country in the world that can have "LAWS" is the land in which the pig was born?

 

[BecauseIKnow]

"because' habibi There are all kinds of "laws" in the world In Saudi arabia there are LAWS denying ----KAFFIRIN the right to visit the birth place of the filthy stinking rapist pig Muhummad----to wit MECCA Who made that "LAW"??? it is the law of that land-----the epicenter of the filth-----ARABIA Are you suggesting that the only country in the world that can have "LAWS" is the land in which the pig was born?

lol you're such a clown.

 

[docmauser1]

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

If we are wilfully ignoring article 2, aren't we? And we are, like Hansel, Carter's "legal" provider of peacemongering excuses, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

And the UN Charter does not recognize the legitimacy of the acquisition of territory by military conquest!

Funny so, who tells that to the japanese still waiting for their southern Kurila islands? Those poor folks must be amazed by the blatant hypocricy of the UN, fussing about a bunch of rag-tagular arab settlers, who never had a valid legal excuse to the area, while ignoring an established legal sovereign that lost its land in violation of the non-aggression pact. So, let us drop this tune and return to our hilarious bible-thumping about jews treating muslims in a not-so-christian way, shall we?

 

[ima]

What Kind of State in Israel?

It's the leader of the Axis of Zionism, of which there are only 9 members left.

 

[georgephillip]

"Miriyam Aouragh is a researcher and lecturer in Oriental and Middle East Studies at Oxford University. She is currently living and working in Palestine.

Let's name the names and call her a tovaristch agitprop kommissar, of course.

Hasbara-speak for "we will continue stealing all the land and water between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River because our G-d believes in keeping His collection plate full."

How's the backstroke working, drivel.
'Sure hope racist Jews can float.

 

[georgephillip]

Two core questions that need to be answered: what kind of state is Israel and "who are the Palestinians that state is in conflict with?"

The CounterPunch POV:

"Israel was established to be a Jewish state. Its institutions have always been shaped and constrained so as to ensure the continued existence of a Jewish majority and character.

"Passing a test of Jewishness entitles someone to Israeli citizenship regardless of where in the world she lives.

"Furthermore, her citizenship comes with a bundle of political, social and economic rights which are preferential to that of citizens who do not qualify as Jewish.

"This inbuilt discriminatory premise highlights the apartheid nature of the state. But apartheid is not an accidental feature of Israel. Its very creation involved immense injustice and suffering."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

I cannot help but add that Israel is a State that makes a practice out of killing Palestinians/nonJewish residents of Palestine.

Btslem dats shows Israel has killed over 8000 Palestinians, the majority civilians, that includes overr 1000 Palestinian children since the onset of The First Intifada in December of 1987.

Human rights groups write reports calling these civilian killings and child killings unlawful under The Fourth Geneva Convention and war crimes. See Amnesty and Human Rights Watch websites for their many reports.

Sherri

Call 911 and state your complaint.

Call Bibi and ask when he plans to begin honoring the ceasefire:

"Since November 26th, 2012, 15 fishermen have been arrested and 6 boats destroyed.

"As participants in an emergency delegation to Gaza, we have had the opportunity to speak to several of the fishermen arrested, members of their families, and a Palestinian activist, Maher Alaa, who was documenting the situation while aboard one of the adjacent boats, which also received heavy gunfire."

Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

Killer Jews just can't stop killing, right, Killer?

 

[georgephillip]

OK, but let us say that Canada comes across Lake Erie and occupies Ohio. Until such time that there is an agreement between the US and Canada ceding that land, it still belongs to the US.

And the UN Charter does not recognize the legitimacy of the acquisition of territory by military conquest!

Bullshit. The UN recognizes Israel on land it acquired during its War of Independence. Under any reading of any international law or treaty, Israel has at least as much claim to the West Bank as the Palestinian mafia that runs the PA. Since most of the world, including the UN, recognizes the land Israel acquire by conquest in the 1948-1950 war as legally and legitimately Israel's, there is no reason not to recognize the land it acquired in 1967 as legally and legitimately Israel's if Israel decides to claim it. The land in question is the unincorporated remnants of the former Mandate for Palestine and no other country of people has a stronger legal claim to it than Israel.

This is a political issue, not a legal issue, and ill informed self righteous rants about international laws are irrelevant.

"The preamble[UNSCR 242] emphasizes the 'inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.'

"Operative Paragraph One 'Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." [4]

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the "chosen" people think they are going to rule all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River by conquest, they are on the wrong side of History.(Again)

 

[georgephillip]

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel did not transfer its population to the West Bank any more than it has transferred Israeli citizens who live in the US to the US. The Israeli government simply allowed its citizens to move to the West Bank or the US or elsewhere. In fact, the Israeli government has acted to slow down the movement of Israelis to the West Bank by only approving a small percentage of the building permits applied for.

I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide any "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?

 

[toastman]

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel did not transfer its population to the West Bank any more than it has transferred Israeli citizens who live in the US to the US. The Israeli government simply allowed its citizens to move to the West Bank or the US or elsewhere. In fact, the Israeli government has acted to slow down the movement of Israelis to the West Bank by only approving a small percentage of the building permits applied for.

I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide any "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?

Ah, simple answer. Never

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Israel did not transfer its population to the West Bank any more than it has transferred Israeli citizens who live in the US to the US. The Israeli government simply allowed its citizens to move to the West Bank or the US or elsewhere. In fact, the Israeli government has acted to slow down the movement of Israelis to the West Bank by only approving a small percentage of the building permits applied for.

I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide antvy "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?

Ah, simple answer. Never

And Nazi Zionists have nice little Nazi Zionist boys like you to encourage their war crimes and murders against the children and civilian population of Palestine!

 

[toastman]

I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide antvy "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?

Ah, simple answer. Never

And Nazi Zionists have nice little Nazi Zionist boys like you to encourage their war crimes and murders against the children and civilian population of Palestine!

Sherri, what is the definition of collateral damage?

 

[RoccoR]

georgephillip, toomuchtime_, SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Our friend, georgephillip is absolutely correct. UNSC 242 (S/RES/242 NOV 67) was adopted immediately after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War (5-11 JUNE 67) to prevent the permanent acquisition by conquest.

The trouble with this is, some interpret UNSC Res 242 as "Retroactive Law." The international community, watching the Arab Military build-up prior to the (inevitable) conflict, never expected a decisive victory by the Israelis! To negate the outcome, the resolution was passed to, in effect, reset the clock.

Contrary to popular belief, the UN (Charters VI: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES and CHAPTER VII: ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION) does not address territorial concessions by conquest. Neither Chapter addresses member nation territory or boundaries; or addresses the ramifications of conquest. But Chapter V: THE SECURITY COUNCIL (Articles 24 and 25) do have an impact with respect to the implementation of UNSC Res 242 and 338 (the companion).

UNSC Res 242, and the companion UNSC Res 338 Arab-Israeli War of 1973, (capture of Suez, the encirclement of Egyptian 3d Army, the advance to within 45km of Damascus, and the occupation of Golan Heights) revived the issued again. At the beginning of the UNSC Res 338 (22 OCT 73) ceasefire, the Israeli holdings were substantial. At the conclusion of the '67 War, the question was the return to the 1948 boundaries. At the conclusion to '73 War, the call was the return to the '67 boundaries.

And the UN Charter does not recognize the legitimacy of the acquisition of territory by military conquest!

Bullshit. The UN recognizes Israel on land it acquired during its War of Independence. Under any reading of any international law or treaty, Israel has at least as much claim to the West Bank as the Palestinian mafia that runs the PA. Since most of the world, including the UN, recognizes the land Israel acquire by conquest in the 1948-1950 war as legally and legitimately Israel's, there is no reason not to recognize the land it acquired in 1967 as legally and legitimately Israel's if Israel decides to claim it. The land in question is the unincorporated remnants of the former Mandate for Palestine and no other country of people has a stronger legal claim to it than Israel.

This is a political issue, not a legal issue, and ill informed self righteous rants about international laws are irrelevant.

"The preamble[UNSCR 242] emphasizes the 'inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.'

"Operative Paragraph One 'Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." [4]

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the "chosen" people think they are going to rule all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River by conquest, they are on the wrong side of History.(Again)

(COMMENT)

I happen to agree with the argument that the expansion by conquest does not further the cause of regional peace and stability. But in order for such a concept to have any lasting impact, it must be accepted by both at Arab world, as well as the Israelis. It is clear, that up through and including the Yom Kipper War (4 major conflicts - the Arab Coalition vs Israel) that the Arab World is not ready to further the cause of regional peace and stability.

Based on what has been observed to date, there is no reasonable expectation that we should see a change in the behavior of the Arab World. No matter how many regime changes occur, no matter what promises have been made in the past, no matter what agreements has been signed, the Arab World in the Region will continue to periodically effect military build-ups and make an attempt to overrun Israel. This, in turn requires Israel to secure strategic buffer zones around its territory to improve the ever mounting and inevitable attacks that can be expected by its (not so friendly) neighbors.

It really does not matter any more what the UN says or what the law says. That has been transcended. It doesn't really matter what the flavor of the day in leadership says, it doesn't really matter; it doesn't really matter what the conflict is about - they will make one excuse up or another for the justification to attack. It is the history of the region and the habitual reflex of the Arab people to promote war and intolerance. At the end of the day, everyone understands the inevitability of a future Arab attack; and they will continue until one side, or the other is (not just defeated but) totally annihilated, extirpated to the root. The Arab World can be defeated many times and recover its ever growing passion for cultural combat, but the Israelis need only lose once and they, as a culture and nation are extinguished. While this raises hopes for the Arab people and is often cause for celebration, it does not further either the reputation of the culture or the advancement of peace and the species.

I believe it is too late for humanity to save the Jewish Homeland or improve the heritage of the Arab people. It is what it is. Many of us have chosen sides, unwavering in our belief that we are in the absolute right; that the other side deserves eradication. But history will not speak kindly of us, or the wisdom we've shown. It will merely record that the world had a chance to secure peace in the region, but the barbarism of the time won-out.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toomuchtime_]

And the UN Charter does not recognize the legitimacy of the acquisition of territory by military conquest!

Bullshit. The UN recognizes Israel on land it acquired during its War of Independence. Under any reading of any international law or treaty, Israel has at least as much claim to the West Bank as the Palestinian mafia that runs the PA. Since most of the world, including the UN, recognizes the land Israel acquire by conquest in the 1948-1950 war as legally and legitimately Israel's, there is no reason not to recognize the land it acquired in 1967 as legally and legitimately Israel's if Israel decides to claim it. The land in question is the unincorporated remnants of the former Mandate for Palestine and no other country of people has a stronger legal claim to it than Israel.

This is a political issue, not a legal issue, and ill informed self righteous rants about international laws are irrelevant.

"The preamble[UNSCR 242] emphasizes the 'inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.'

"Operative Paragraph One 'Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." [4]

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the "chosen" people think they are going to rule all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River by conquest, they are on the wrong side of History.(Again)

242 addresses the parties to the conflict, Israel and the Arab states, and does not address any issues between Israel and any Palestinian state, real or imagined. Regarding the West Bank and Gaza, the issues between Israel and the Arab states involved have been resolved, so 242 has no relevance any longer.

 

[irosie91]

no aquisition by war? -----GOOD east jerusalem was STOLEN from a jewish population there which had resided there---sometimes SECRETLY for more than 2000 years---in 1947 by a violent and deadly starvation siege inflicted on that
population by ISA RESPECTERS illegal theft of jerusalem by the ISA RESPECTER PIGS Interestingly enough----NABLUS which was orginally SHECHEM ----was stolen by
the ROMAN EMPIRE------and ruled with an oppressive hand by PIG IMPERIALIST CONSTANTINE------illegal aquisition

 

[irosie91]

Georgie has not revealed his background---but sherri has----as an heiress to the filth of the first, second and third reichs-------murderers of not millions but HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS----the pigs of the second reich even murdered millions in the americas -------raped and confiscated and enslaved children----IN THE MILLIONS Some things never change----CULTURE is transmitted in all its filth----generation to generation

anyone interested in the filth with which sherri is imbued ---should read such notable words as CHILDHOOD AND SOCIETY

 

[georgephillip]

Israel did not transfer its population to the West Bank any more than it has transferred Israeli citizens who live in the US to the US. The Israeli government simply allowed its citizens to move to the West Bank or the US or elsewhere. In fact, the Israeli government has acted to slow down the movement of Israelis to the West Bank by only approving a small percentage of the building permits applied for.

I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide any "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?

Ah, simple answer. Never

The Fourth Geneva Convention.
Section III.
Article 49.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Would you be less confused if five million Arabs were occupying six million Jews in Palestine?

 

[toastman]

I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide any "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?

Ah, simple answer. Never

The Fourth Geneva Convention.
Section III.
Article 49.

Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Would you be less confused if five million Arabs were occupying six million Jews in Palestine?

Let me ask you something. How did Israel come to occupying the West Bank ?

 

[toomuchtime_]

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

Fourth Geneva Convention - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Israel did not transfer its population to the West Bank any more than it has transferred Israeli citizens who live in the US to the US. The Israeli government simply allowed its citizens to move to the West Bank or the US or elsewhere. In fact, the Israeli government has acted to slow down the movement of Israelis to the West Bank by only approving a small percentage of the building permits applied for.

I'm not aware of the IDF providing security for Israeli Jews living in the US.
Israel's government had no authority to provide any "building permits" on territory it acquired by conquest.
The Zionist imperative of "creeping annexation" (Dunam by dunam) has reached its logical, moral, and legal end point.
The only remaining question is when do the Jews start leaving the West Bank?

Since the disputed territories were not sovereign territories when they fell under Israel's control, there are no treaties or international laws that can be appealed to to establish Israel's authority to issue building permits or to dispute its authority. These are political issues, not legal issues, and as such, rights and authorities can only be established by war or negotiation. If the Palestinian Arabs are unhappy about the building permits the Israeli government is approving, the way to settle this issue is to come to the negotiating table and make realistic proposals for a final settlement that would explicitly state the extent of the Israeli government's rights and authorities.

As long as the Palestinian Arabs continue to talk about Israel while refusing to talk to Israel, it is fair to assume they have abandoned all interest in influencing facts on the ground and have de facto approved the policies of the Israeli government even as they whine about them.

 

[P F Tinmore]

georgephillip, toomuchtime_, SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

Our friend, georgephillip is absolutely correct. UNSC 242 (S/RES/242 NOV 67) was adopted immediately after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War (5-11 JUNE 67) to prevent the permanent acquisition by conquest.

The trouble with this is, some interpret UNSC Res 242 as "Retroactive Law." The international community, watching the Arab Military build-up prior to the (inevitable) conflict, never expected a decisive victory by the Israelis! To negate the outcome, the resolution was passed to, in effect, reset the clock.

Contrary to popular belief, the UN (Charters VI: PACIFIC SETTLEMENT OF DISPUTES and CHAPTER VII: ACTION WITH RESPECT TO THREATS TO THE PEACE, BREACHES OF THE PEACE, AND ACTS OF AGGRESSION) does not address territorial concessions by conquest. Neither Chapter addresses member nation territory or boundaries; or addresses the ramifications of conquest. But Chapter V: THE SECURITY COUNCIL (Articles 24 and 25) do have an impact with respect to the implementation of UNSC Res 242 and 338 (the companion).

UNSC Res 242, and the companion UNSC Res 338 Arab-Israeli War of 1973, (capture of Suez, the encirclement of Egyptian 3d Army, the advance to within 45km of Damascus, and the occupation of Golan Heights) revived the issued again. At the beginning of the UNSC Res 338 (22 OCT 73) ceasefire, the Israeli holdings were substantial. At the conclusion of the '67 War, the question was the return to the 1948 boundaries. At the conclusion to '73 War, the call was the return to the '67 boundaries.

Bullshit. The UN recognizes Israel on land it acquired during its War of Independence. Under any reading of any international law or treaty, Israel has at least as much claim to the West Bank as the Palestinian mafia that runs the PA. Since most of the world, including the UN, recognizes the land Israel acquire by conquest in the 1948-1950 war as legally and legitimately Israel's, there is no reason not to recognize the land it acquired in 1967 as legally and legitimately Israel's if Israel decides to claim it. The land in question is the unincorporated remnants of the former Mandate for Palestine and no other country of people has a stronger legal claim to it than Israel.

This is a political issue, not a legal issue, and ill informed self righteous rants about international laws are irrelevant.

"The preamble[UNSCR 242] emphasizes the 'inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in the Middle East in which every State in the area can live in security.'

"Operative Paragraph One 'Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." [4]

United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If the "chosen" people think they are going to rule all the land between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River by conquest, they are on the wrong side of History.(Again)

(COMMENT)

I happen to agree with the argument that the expansion by conquest does not further the cause of regional peace and stability. But in order for such a concept to have any lasting impact, it must be accepted by both at Arab world, as well as the Israelis. It is clear, that up through and including the Yom Kipper War (4 major conflicts - the Arab Coalition vs Israel) that the Arab World is not ready to further the cause of regional peace and stability.

Based on what has been observed to date, there is no reasonable expectation that we should see a change in the behavior of the Arab World. No matter how many regime changes occur, no matter what promises have been made in the past, no matter what agreements has been signed, the Arab World in the Region will continue to periodically effect military build-ups and make an attempt to overrun Israel. This, in turn requires Israel to secure strategic buffer zones around its territory to improve the ever mounting and inevitable attacks that can be expected by its (not so friendly) neighbors.

It really does not matter any more what the UN says or what the law says. That has been transcended. It doesn't really matter what the flavor of the day in leadership says, it doesn't really matter; it doesn't really matter what the conflict is about - they will make one excuse up or another for the justification to attack. It is the history of the region and the habitual reflex of the Arab people to promote war and intolerance. At the end of the day, everyone understands the inevitability of a future Arab attack; and they will continue until one side, or the other is (not just defeated but) totally annihilated, extirpated to the root. The Arab World can be defeated many times and recover its ever growing passion for cultural combat, but the Israelis need only lose once and they, as a culture and nation are extinguished. While this raises hopes for the Arab people and is often cause for celebration, it does not further either the reputation of the culture or the advancement of peace and the species.

I believe it is too late for humanity to save the Jewish Homeland or improve the heritage of the Arab people. It is what it is. Many of us have chosen sides, unwavering in our belief that we are in the absolute right; that the other side deserves eradication. But history will not speak kindly of us, or the wisdom we've shown. It will merely record that the world had a chance to secure peace in the region, but the barbarism of the time won-out.

Most Respectfully,
R

UNSC 242 (S/RES/242 NOV 67) was adopted immediately after the 1967 Arab-Israeli War (5-11 JUNE 67) to prevent the permanent acquisition by conquest.

UNSC 242 did not create the law against acquisition of land by conquest. It merely referenced existing law.