Zone1 What Jesus really said to the thief on the cross.

[The Duke]

No, you are just being a dick!

The language in the Bible dumbass, what language they spoke is irrelevant, but was probably Aramaic.

The two phrases are completely different and I know you are just arguing to argue because anyone with a third grade education can see that.

Leftist Prog Fucktard ROE:

===========================


1. Demand a link or an explanation of the truth they are objecting to.

2. Promptly reject all explanations as right wing lies. Smoke spin deflect.

3. Ignore any facts presented.

3a. Play dumb and keep others wasting their time trying to enlighten you.

4. Ridicule spelling and typos, punctuation.

5. Attack the person as being juvenile, ie: "are you 12 years old", question their education, intelligence, Age.

6. Employ misdirection.

6a. smear people.

6b. attack religion.

6c. attack your rationality.

7. Lie, make false assumptions.

8. Play race/gender card/misogynist card.

9. Play gay/lesbian card.

10. Play the Nazi/Fascist/bigot card.

11. Make up stuff/So you got nothing?

12. Deny constantly.

13. Reword and repeat.

14. Pretending not to understand, playing ignorant/what did I lie about.

15. When losing, resort to personal attacks.

16. Russia.

17. Fox News/Alex Jones/Brietbart/infowars/Stormfront/Gateway/hannity/OAN.

18. You can’t read.

19. Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump.

20. What about...

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Leftist Prog Fucktard ROE:

===========================


1. Demand a link or an explanation of the truth they are objecting to.

2. Promptly reject all explanations as right wing lies. Smoke spin deflect.

3. Ignore any facts presented.

3a. Play dumb and keep others wasting their time trying to enlighten you.

4. Ridicule spelling and typos, punctuation.

5. Attack the person as being juvenile, ie: "are you 12 years old", question their education, intelligence, Age.

6. Employ misdirection.

6a. smear people.

6b. attack religion.

6c. attack your rationality.

7. Lie, make false assumptions.

8. Play race/gender card/misogynist card.

9. Play gay/lesbian card.

10. Play the Nazi/Fascist/bigot card.

11. Make up stuff/So you got nothing?

12. Deny constantly.

13. Reword and repeat.

14. Pretending not to understand, playing ignorant/what did I lie about.

15. When losing, resort to personal attacks.

16. Russia.

17. Fox News/Alex Jones/Brietbart/infowars/Stormfront/Gateway/hannity/OAN.

18. You can’t read.

19. Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump.

20. What about...

You act like it, you get treated that way. Too bad, so sad.

 

[MostBoringManInTheWorld]

Not what the OP said, that for the thief "there was a hopeful future for him." As Rockwell Tory says, comma placement is after the first you, not after today.

The actual line implies imminence, not anything futuristic.

So the difference is between imminent and futuristic, but with the same end goal?

What is that end goal?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Dennis, I think you nailed the timeline. There were just a couple things that I wonder about. The hour-long tour, and the use of Paradise/Heaven. The two locations are not the same. And there is more to the story:

Jesus' 3 days were up on Sat. evening. So it was technically Sunday, before the sun came up, when Mary went to the tomb and it was empty.
And then, 2 Temple Priest's ran to the Temple to account what they saw. <They reported that they saw Jesus and about 10,000 formerly dead singing on their way into town. It had to be daylight for the Priests to see them. They even named some of the participants, which led to a whole new chain of events, including Pilot going to the Temple in a rage and slamming the door shut behind him, after He was told Jesus was back.

But prior to that the Roman guard, consisting of 8 soldiers, saw the angel show up, telling the women who showed up, that Christ was risen, and the Roman soldiers told the Priests what they saw scared them to death. When the priests asked them what time the angel appeared and the women showed up to tend to the body, the guard told them, Midnight.

There ya go.

 

[Cougarbear]

"I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise."

Today.
Now, at this time.

Jesus was saying that "at this time" when things look so hopeless for the thief that there was a hopeful future for him.

"I'm telling you now, that things are going to be ok."

What child hasn't heard their parents say, "I'm telling you right now..." followed by a statement. For example,

"I'm telling you right now you are going to mow the lawn before you can go swimming."

Not that the kid had to mow the lawn "right now", but at some time before he would be allowed to go swimming.

Trying to move the goal posts again. Did Jesus lie? Nope. But the challenge mainstream Christians have is they equate Paradise as being Heaven. However, before Jesus was resurrected, he came to Mary and said touch me not for I have not yet ascended to HEAVEN. Yet, a couple days earlier he and the thief were taken in spirit to PARADISE. Therefore, Paradise cannot in any way be Heaven. It’s just part of the Spirit World where the thief would be taught and preached to in spirit prison or the spirit world specifically Paradise and not hell. Therefore, “Today” is very important and you’ve been caught trying to deceive others of the truth of why Peter spoke about preaching the gospel in spirit prison or world. Satan disposed again! Glory to God in the highest!

 

[Woodznutz]

Trying to move the goal posts again. Did Jesus lie? Nope. But the challenge mainstream Christians have is they equate Paradise as being Heaven. However, before Jesus was resurrected, he came to Mary and said touch me not for I have not yet ascended to HEAVEN. Yet, a couple days earlier he and the thief were taken in spirit to PARADISE. Therefore, Paradise cannot in any way be Heaven. It’s just part of the Spirit World where the thief would be taught and preached to in spirit prison or the spirit world specifically Paradise and not hell. Therefore, “Today” is very important and you’ve been caught trying to deceive others of the truth of why Peter spoke about preaching the gospel in spirit prison or world. Satan disposed again! Glory to God in the highest!

Jesus said this to Mary M after he was resurrected. Also, Mary came to him, not him to Mary.

I don't believe "spirit prison" is paradise.

 

[Cougarbear]

Jesus said this to Mary M after he was resurrected. Also, Mary came to him, not him to Mary.

I don't believe "spirit prison" is paradise.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not⁠; for I am not yet ascended to my Father⁠: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father⁠, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He’s in the process but not necessarily resurrected. He had to tell her not to touch it he would be a deceiver. It’s how we can detect Satan and his devils if they come and tell us to do things we know are wrong. A devil would reach out to deceive only not to be able to make physical contact.

The fact is, the thief did not ascend directly to heaven. Paradise is not Heaven. From Jesus’s death to his resurrection he preached to the thief in Paradise and to those in Paradise and Hell. All in the spirit world which is a prison like place because we are not made whole in the resurrection.

 

[The Irish Ram]

. All in the spirit world which is a prison like place because we are not made whole in the resurrection.

Hebrews 10:9-12 "Behold, I have come to do your will.” He< (God) does away with the first <(the law) in order to establish the second. < (Christ) And by that will we have been<(past tense) sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had,<(past tense) offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat <(past tense) down at the right hand of God.
When you accept Christ, your sins are nailed to the cross, and God remembers them no more. It's done Cougar. When we accept Christ, that is what God sees when He looks at us. He sees Jesus. We even smell like Jesus to God. Your name is written in the Book of Life and your place at God's table is reserved.

When God forgives sin through Jesus Christ, He removes it infinitely (Psalm 103:12), casts it into the depths of the sea (Micah 7:19), throws it behind His back (Isaiah 38:17), cancels its legal debt (Colossians 2:14), and chooses to remember it no more (Jeremiah 31:34).

2 Corinth 2:15-16 For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one, we are an odor of death and demise; to the other, a fragrance that brings life

Considering what most of us deserve, what a friend we have in Jesus...

 

[Cougarbear]

Hebrews 10:9-12 "Behold, I have come to do your will.” He< (God) does away with the first <(the law) in order to establish the second. < (Christ) And by that will we have been<(past tense) sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had,<(past tense) offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat <(past tense) down at the right hand of God.
When you accept Christ, your sins are nailed to the cross, and God remembers them no more. It's done Cougar. When we accept Christ, that is what God sees when He looks at us. He sees Jesus. We even smell like Jesus to God. Your name is written in the Book of Life and your place at God's table is reserved.

When God forgives sin through Jesus Christ, He removes it infinitely (Psalm 103:12), casts it into the depths of the sea (Micah 7:19), throws it behind His back (Isaiah 38:17), cancels its legal debt (Colossians 2:14), and chooses to remember it no more (Jeremiah 31:34).

2 Corinth 2:15-16 For we are to God the sweet aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one, we are an odor of death and demise; to the other, a fragrance that brings life

Considering what most of us deserve, what a friend we have in Jesus...

How many of the 60 billion who have lived on this earth ever heard of Jesus Christ? How big of you to only include a small percentage of all of God's children that can be saved according to you. But, this is false doctrine. Jesus Christ went to the world of spirits between his death and resurrection to preach and teach them about himself. I believe he also organized those from Paradise who have accepted Jesus Christ and all His true doctrines and ordinances in a missionary army to preach to all in the spirit world in Paradise and in hell. All 60 billion will have the opportunity to bow their knees and confess Jesus is the Christ.

 

[The Irish Ram]

How big of you to only include a small percentage of all of God's children that can be saved according to you.

How big of me? Cougar, do you think I made the decision on what it takes to get into Heaven, and that I'm being stingy with Christ's gift of propitiation? All I can tell you is what my Bible says. It says the road to Heaven is narrow. And that Jesus Christ is the only way to get there. Are you saying that there are other ways to go to the Father? Different strokes for different folks?

We don't have enough information on how God deals with those who have never heard of Jesus. We do know that God is 100% just, and He doesn't want to lose any of us. I'm sure He knows the right thing to do.

Those who were in Abraham's Bosom returned with Christ, and when He ascended into Heaven, they went with Him.

Eph.4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.​

I don't know of any scripture that says those souls in Abraham's Bosom go to Hell and preach there. What would be the point? There are no souls in Abraham's Bosom anymore, and those souls in Hell are to remain there until the White Throne Judgment.
The Bible tells us where the souls waiting for Christ went. They went to Heaven with Christ.

 

[Cougarbear]

How big of me? Cougar, do you think I made the decision on what it takes to get into Heaven, and that I'm being stingy with Christ's gift of propitiation? All I can tell you is what my Bible says. It says the road to Heaven is narrow. And that Jesus Christ is the only way to get there. Are you saying that there are other ways to go to the Father? Different strokes for different folks?

We don't have enough information on how God deals with those who have never heard of Jesus. We do know that God is 100% just, and He doesn't want to lose any of us. I'm sure He knows the right thing to do.

Those who were in Abraham's Bosom returned with Christ, and when He ascended into Heaven, they went with Him.

Eph.4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.​

I don't know of any scripture that says those souls in Abraham's Bosom go to Hell and preach there. What would be the point? There are no souls in Abraham's Bosom anymore, and those souls in Hell are to remain there until the White Throne Judgment.
The Bible tells us where the souls waiting for Christ went. They went to Heaven with Christ.

Your definition of heaven is narrow. There are many mansions or degrees of Heaven. Paul gives 3 glories or degrees in which where Father and Son are is narrow. But the other 2 lower degrees are wide and will house most. 1st Corinthians chapter 15.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Stop putting words in my mouth, Cougar. I said narrow is the road to Heaven, not Heaven itself.

Matthew 7: 13-14. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I can tell you exactly how big God's New Jerusalem alone is, and it's not narrow:

Rev. 21 15-17 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

^ If each story was 12 feet high, that would be 600,000 stories. Nothing narrow about it. That one city alone would cover the United States. It's 10 times larger than India, France, and Germany put together.

For a comparison between the size of Heaven and Earth, here is how Isaiah describes it:

Isaiah 66:1 Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool.

There ya go…

 

[Cougarbear]

Stop putting words in my mouth, Cougar. I said narrow is the road to Heaven, not Heaven itself.

Matthew 7: 13-14. Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I can tell you exactly how big God's New Jerusalem alone is, and it's not narrow:

Rev. 21 15-17 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. And he measured the wall thereof, a hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

^ If each story was 12 feet high, that would be 600,000 stories. Nothing narrow about it. That one city alone would cover the United States. It's 10 times larger than India, France, and Germany put together.

For a comparison between the size of Heaven and Earth, here is how Isaiah describes it:

Isaiah 66:1 Heaven is My throne, and the earth is My footstool.

There ya go…

Nice try moving the goal post. No, because Heaven involves 3 kingdoms of glory, The highest is narrow as this requires acceptance of baptism whether in life or variously as in 1Cor. 15:29. It also requires other good works showing the level of Celestial faith as James wrote. The James in the Bible. The 1Cor. in the Bible. The 3 kingdoms of glory. In the Bible, 1Cor. chapter 15. The lower glories will hold the vast majority of persons who have lived at one time or another on the earth. The Heaven you originally stated where the road to it was narrow and straight is that highest Kingdom, Celestial glory. So, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm clarifying what that verse refers to concerning the narrow and straight road.

 

[Woodznutz]

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not⁠; for I am not yet ascended to my Father⁠: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father⁠, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He’s in the process but not necessarily resurrected. He had to tell her not to touch it he would be a deceiver. It’s how we can detect Satan and his devils if they come and tell us to do things we know are wrong. A devil would reach out to deceive only not to be able to make physical contact.

The fact is, the thief did not ascend directly to heaven. Paradise is not Heaven. From Jesus’s death to his resurrection he preached to the thief in Paradise and to those in Paradise and Hell. All in the spirit world which is a prison like place because we are not made whole in the resurrection.

Mary probably wanted to embrace Jesus, but he said "don't cling to me" because he was about to ascend to the father, and his physical relationship with his followers would never be the same.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I didn't move any goal posts. I just corrected you with scripture. Matthew and I said the road to Heaven is narrow. Neither of us said Heaven is narrow.

And while I'm at it...

Paradise who have accepted Jesus Christ and all His true doctrines and ordinances in a missionary army to preach to all in the spirit world in Paradise and in hell

^ Scripture please, because my Bible says they went to Heaven with Christ, not hell.

And:

All in the spirit world which is a prison like place because we are not made whole in the resurrection.

The theme of the Bible is that we are made whole through Jesus' work on the cross, not by anything we do. Our good works are rags. What are you compensating for that Jesus was remiss in completing?
What is it you think Christ left out that you have to finish up for Him? What works do you need to perform for your salvation? We are saved by God's grace, through faith. Our job is to believe and share the good news, not add to whatever you believe Christ neglected.

Romans 10:9 “Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” ​

Christ died in your place and gave you His perfect record to enter Heaven with. What more do you require?

 

[The Irish Ram]

Mary probably wanted to embrace Jesus, but he said "don't cling to me" because he was about to ascend to the father, and his physical relationship with his followers would never be the same.

He came and went and came and went for 40 days. We know that He warned Mary not to touch Him. And then He told Thomas to touch Him. So His body was glorified at some point before He popped in to see His disciples.

 

[Cougarbear]

Mary probably wanted to embrace Jesus, but he said "don't cling to me" because he was about to ascend to the father, and his physical relationship with his followers would never be the same.

You change the meaning using cling instead of touch. She may have just wanted to know if it was really Jesus or the devil deceiving her. Also, to allow her to attempt to hold or cling would be deceiving because he wasn't resurrected yet. To allow it would make Jesus the deceiver.

 

[Cougarbear]

I didn't move any goal posts. I just corrected you with scripture. Matthew and I said the road to Heaven is narrow. Neither of us said Heaven is narrow.

And while I'm at it...

^ Scripture please, because my Bible says they went to Heaven with Christ, not hell.

And:

The theme of the Bible is that we are made whole through Jesus' work on the cross, not by anything we do. Our good works are rags. What are you compensating for that Jesus was remiss in completing?
What is it you think Christ left out that you have to finish up for Him? What works do you need to perform for your salvation? We are saved by God's grace, through faith. Our job is to believe and share the good news, not add to whatever you believe Christ neglected.

Romans 10:9 “Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” ​

Christ died in your place and gave you His perfect record to enter Heaven with. What more do you require?

Jesus was resurrected on the 3rd day and went to Heaven with His Father in Heaven. If your bible says he told the thief that the thief would be in Heaven with Jesus "Today," the First day of his death, Jesu would have been lying. Your bible translators errored. It would be correct to then say "today" you will be with me in "Paradise." Paradise and Heaven cannot be the same place. Use that logic in your brain and you will understand. I promise you.

 

[The Irish Ram]

You don't pay attention. I have stated the difference here between Heaven and Paradise. If Christ told Mary he hadn't ascended to the Father yet, and Father is in Heaven, then we know He went to what He called Paradise, Abraham's Bosom. And He told the thief He would be with Him in Paradise.
You can put the comma anywhere you want, the outcome tells the rest of us where to put it:

Jesus went to Paradise only once.
He removed the souls that were waiting for Him to redeem them. They returned with Christ and remained for 40 days before they ascended with Him to Heaven.
If the thief was going to be in Paradise with Christ, the thief only had a 3-day opportunity before Christ left and closed the door to Paradise behind Him. Jesus and the thief went to Paradise when they died that day.

And I don't know where you got the idea that those who were in Abraham's Bosom were then sent to Hell as preachers. They were not. We are talking about Abraham, Sarah, Noah, King David, Adam, John the Baptist, Moses, God's prophets, the beggar, and so on. They went to Heaven. You still have provided no scripture that tells us they all went to Hell, as you claim.

The Roman Guards reported to the Temple Priests that the Angel appeared at Midnight after the Sabbath, and told Mary that Christ was not there. When Mary did see Jesus after sunrise, He had not yet gone to the Father. He said so.
A week after He revealed Himself to the disciples, they were all together again, with Thomas this time, and Jesus told Thomas to touch Him. Jesus also just appeared out of nowhere. That tells us that He had gone to the Father and that His body had been glorified and could traverse dimensions. He came and went for 40 days.

 

[Woodznutz]

Our good works are rags.

If so why do them?