CDZ What is With All of the Deadly Police Shootings?

[Programmer]

Police should be trained to wound.

How about disable with taser, tear gas, flash bang, nets, etc.?

Well, that hasn't worked. Maybe their pistols need to run .25 ACP.

they didn't try those in any of the cases we've been discussing.

I haven't had a chance to review this discussion in depth. Maybe the better direction would be to use the same barrel and load plastic or rubber bullets. This means every cop would also have to have a 'real' gun. This can introduce that issue where police are outgunned or unprepared for certain cases.

 

[320 Years of History]

When I saw that, I stopped reading.
Its hard to be compelled to retardation.

What can I say? You should have read on, then you perhaps wouldn't have asked the question you did.

 

[Picaro]

Young black males commit something like half of violent crimes. Do the math. Inventing sophistic hand waves and excuses out in the Burbs and academia doesn't do squat except increase homicides in the black neighborhoods. Or just continue to make 'heroes' out of violent strong arm hoodlums like Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin and keep those murder rates in south Chicago climbing, just because it's a more appealing option for clueless types who don't have to suffer the consequences of ignoring it all in favor of PCness and making somebody else the Cause Of It All.

Most of us who pay attention and read know full well who is the problem in black neighborhoods, and it ain't ******, and we also know most black people portrayed in the media, like the BLM farce for one, aren't representative of black people as a whole. Guess who was calling for increased stringent police enforcement and stronger laws against drug dealing and crime in the 1970's and 1980's? Anybody want to discuss the 'War On Drugs Causing Our Prisons to Overflow'' mythology currently popular now?

 

[jillian]

Ok lets do it
IKR? Why was the black woman telling the cop to do those things? She MUST be racist!

i'm not sure what you're talking about. please clarify.

notice how the only time anyone ever says silly things like "so he MUST be racist" it's just some stooge attempting to deflect from your valid points...

Racism was one of her arguments, dumbfuck

to be fair, you haven't addressed my points except to imply that racial arrest statistics somehow justifies killing young, unarmed black men.

Statistically, a black male is more likely to do something crazy. I was simply pointing out why logically someone would think that.
You mentioned enforcement rates. I am waiting on that.

No. statistically, black males are prosecuted more for the same things white males don't get prosecuted for.

 

[Picaro]

or statistics

if you look at it as a statistical issue, then we need to discuss disparate enforcement rates in the black and white communities for the same actions....

so no, an unarmed black kid is not statistically ANYTHING that would make an officer shoot him. a person selling loose cigarettes did not do anything "statistically" which required a choke hold to kill him.

fahrschtey?

Ok lets do it
IKR? Why was the black woman telling the cop to do those things? She MUST be racist!

i'm not sure what you're talking about. please clarify.

notice how the only time anyone ever says silly things like "so he MUST be racist" it's just some stooge attempting to deflect from your valid points...

Racism was one of her arguments, dumbfuck

This is supposed to be the 'Clean Debate Zone', isn't it?

 

[jillian]

Police should be trained to wound.

How about disable with taser, tear gas, flash bang, nets, etc.?

Well, that hasn't worked. Maybe their pistols need to run .25 ACP.

they didn't try those in any of the cases we've been discussing.

I haven't had a chance to review this discussion in depth. Maybe the better direction would be to use the same barrel and load plastic or rubber bullets. This means every cop would also have to have a 'real' gun. This can introduce that issue where police are outgunned or unprepared for certain cases.

well, in the cases we're discussing, the police aren't outgunned.... they're killing unarmed men.

 

[Programmer]

Police should be trained to wound.

How about disable with taser, tear gas, flash bang, nets, etc.?

Well, that hasn't worked. Maybe their pistols need to run .25 ACP.

they didn't try those in any of the cases we've been discussing.

I haven't had a chance to review this discussion in depth. Maybe the better direction would be to use the same barrel and load plastic or rubber bullets. This means every cop would also have to have a 'real' gun. This can introduce that issue where police are outgunned or unprepared for certain cases.

well, in the cases we're discussing, the police aren't outgunned.... they're killing unarmed men.

You can't prep for these cases in isolation from the other cases police find themselves in. I like the idea of taking effect from their pistols, while equipping them with something else that can keep them safe until special forces arrive.

 

[jillian]

How about disable with taser, tear gas, flash bang, nets, etc.?

Well, that hasn't worked. Maybe their pistols need to run .25 ACP.

they didn't try those in any of the cases we've been discussing.

I haven't had a chance to review this discussion in depth. Maybe the better direction would be to use the same barrel and load plastic or rubber bullets. This means every cop would also have to have a 'real' gun. This can introduce that issue where police are outgunned or unprepared for certain cases.

well, in the cases we're discussing, the police aren't outgunned.... they're killing unarmed men.

You can't prep for these cases in isolation from the other cases police find themselves in. I like the idea of taking effect from their pistols, while equipping them with something else that can keep them safe until special forces arrive.

and you can't analyze them without examining the disparate treatment of blacks and whites.

and shooting unarmed people has zero to do with being "outgunned".

 

[Programmer]

Well, that hasn't worked. Maybe their pistols need to run .25 ACP.

they didn't try those in any of the cases we've been discussing.

I haven't had a chance to review this discussion in depth. Maybe the better direction would be to use the same barrel and load plastic or rubber bullets. This means every cop would also have to have a 'real' gun. This can introduce that issue where police are outgunned or unprepared for certain cases.

well, in the cases we're discussing, the police aren't outgunned.... they're killing unarmed men.

You can't prep for these cases in isolation from the other cases police find themselves in. I like the idea of taking effect from their pistols, while equipping them with something else that can keep them safe until special forces arrive.

and you can't analyze them without examining the disparate treatment of blacks and whites.

and shooting unarmed people has zero to do with being "outgunned".

Ok. My point is that it has to do with the way that the police are trained to use their guns, or what those guns are loaded with.

While you and Rahm Emmanuel struggle to make non-college-educated blue-collar Americans with guns and badges something other than the historical vanguard of racism against black people in the US, something's got to provide a solution that will actually save lives.

 

[320 Years of History]

[QUOTE="Picaro, post: 13042913, member: 25684"]Young black males commit something like half of violent crimes. ....

Most of us who pay attention and read...[/QUOTE]

I am sure you read some things -- God and you only know what -- but you really need to read more...at least enough to determine whether your own speculations are at least plausible, if not verifiably accurate.

The supposed fact you offered at the start of your remarks are, absent any very dramatic changes in the past two years, and I know for 2014 it didn't, just not true. In fact, it's not even close to being true.



What may very well be true, even though your assertion isn't, is that you believe(d) it to be true or perhaps wanted to.

 

[Picaro]

I am sure you read some things -- God and you only know what -- but you really need to read more...at least enough to determine whether your own speculations are at least plausible, if not verifiably accurate.

The supposed fact you offered at the start of your remarks are, absent any very dramatic changes in the past two years, and I know for 2014 it didn't, just not true. In fact, it's not even close to being true.



What may very well be true, even though your assertion isn't, is that you believe(d) it to be true or perhaps wanted to.

Apparently you either don't read well, or you don't want to; your stats don't disprove what I said at all. Those stats show minorities commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage of the population. So yes, they get profiled more, especially when broken down by types of crimes, like homicides. Also, a large proportion of 'white' crimes will actually be committed by hispanics, who get counted as 'white' in many jurisdictions, or simply because they choose to identify as 'white'.

Another fact is that there is no 'wave of police violence against hapless black people', or anybody else. The total number of shootings by police is miniscule compared to the number of violent assaults on police officers.Obviously a lot more restraint on the part of officers if they were just a bunch of racist loons running around randomly shooting hapless minorities, or else there would be far more shootings.

from 2012 stats:

The rate of officer assaults in 2012 was 10.2 per 100 sworn officers.

Of the 52,901 officers who were assaulted, 14,678 (27.7 percent) sustained injuries.
29.7 percent of the officers who were attacked with personal weapons (e.g., hands, fists, or feet) suffered injuries.
13.2 percent of the officers who were assaulted with knives or other cutting instruments were injured.
9.8 percent of officers who were attacked with firearms were injured.
23.9 percent of officers who were attacked with other dangerous weapons were injured.

Officers Assaulted

Overall, for 2012 there were ...

• In 2012, an estimated 1,214,462 violent crimes occurred nationwide, an increase of 0.7 percent from the 2011 estimate.
• When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2012 estimated violent crime total was 12.9 percent below the 2008 level and 12.2 below the 2003 level.(See Tables 1 and 1A.)
• There were an estimated 386.9 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2012, a rate that remained virtually unchanged when compared to the 2011 estimated rate.(See Tables 1 and 1A.)
• Aggravated assaults accounted for 62.6 percent of violent crimes reported to law enforcement in 2012. Robbery offenses accounted for 29.2 percent of violent crime offenses; rape accounted for 6.9 percent; and murder accounted for 1.2 percent. (Based on Table 1.)
• Information collected regarding types of weapons used in violent crime showed that firearms were used in 69.3 percent of the nation’s murders, 41.0 percent of robberies, and 21.8 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.) (See Expanded Homicide Data Table 7, Robbery Table 3, and the Aggravated Assault Table.)

What are the stats for police shootings in 2012? ... Don't really know, but here is a good guess ....

In 2011, according to data I collected, police officers in the United States shot 1,146 people, killing 607. Between January 1, 2011 and January 1, 2012 I used the Internet to compile a national database of police involved shootings. The term "police involved shooting" pertains to law enforcement officers who, in the line of duty, discharge their guns. When journalists and police administrators use the term, they include the shooting of animals and shots that miss their targets. My case files only include instances in which a person is either killed or wounded by police gunfire. My data also includes off-duty officers who discharged their weapons in law enforcement situations. They don't include, for example, officers using their firearms to resolve personal disputes.

I collected this data myself because the U.S. Government doesn't. There is no national database dedicated to police involved shootings. Alan Maimon, in his article, "National Data on Shootings by Police Not Collected," published on November 28, 2011 in the "Las Vegas Review-Journal," wrote "The nation's leading law enforcement agency [FBI] collects vast amounts of information on crime nationwide, but missing from this clearinghouse are statistics on where, how often, and under what circumstances police use deadly force. In fact, no one anywhere comprehensively tracks the most significant act police can do in the line of duty: take a life."

Jim Fisher True Crime: Police Involved Shooting Statistics: A National One-Year Summary

So we probably have some 50,000 assaults on officers, versus around 1,100 police shootings? Around 2% of assaults on police end up in the police shooting somebody? That's an 'epidemic'???

It's obvious what you want to see there. Another table, with some granularity to it. It doesn't distinguish between hispanic and white.

Table 43

More fun facts here:

Homicide
According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and "Other" 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of white victims killed by whites, and 93% of black victims killed by blacks.[34][35][36]

Youth crime
The "National Youth Gang Survey Analysis" (2011) state that of gang members, 46% are Hispanic/Latino, 35% are black, 11.5% are white, and 7% are other race/ethnicity.[37]

According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, in the year 2008 black youths, who make up 16% of the youth population, accounted for 52% of juvenile violent crime arrests, including 58.5% of youth arrests for homicide and 67% for robbery. Black youths were overrepresented in all offense categories except DUI, liquor laws and drunkenness.[38] ...

Race and crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and on and on. I would say your little chart there has been heavily massaged.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Justifiable homicides by police, 2006-2010

2006 386
2007 398
2008 378
2009 414
2010 397
2011 404
2012 426
2013 471
2014 444

Expanded Homicide Data Table 14
Expanded Homicide Data Table 14

 

[Skylar]

Police shootings are actually going down.. Have been for 50+ years. You just hear about them now.
I do however think that a lot of the shootings are them being in fear for their lives and bad judgement. Of course, there is the fact that police have no duty to protect individuals. They have a right to life.

Its hard to say. My impression is that this is true. But I can't back it up factually. As the police don't offer stats on this issue. Many articles on the matter have noted the stunning lack of data even though the law mandates it.

Despite that the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 required the government to keep "data about the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers," no such database exists. A study published 14 years ago sought to nail down numbers, but its author conceded to CNN that only 564 of the nation's 18,000 law enforcement entities participated.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/20/us/police-brutality-video-social-media-attitudes/

We really should have access to accurate information on police shootings.

 

[Picaro]

Justifiable homicides by police, 2006-2010

2006 386
2007 398
2008 378
2009 414
2010 397
2011 404
2012 426
2013 471
2014 444

Expanded Homicide Data Table 14
Expanded Homicide Data Table 14

And those very low numbers are amazing when taking into account police officers have a 1 in 10 chance of being injured in an assault every year. The media is completely dishonest in their coverage the last few years, and we know why they are, too.

 

[Picaro]

Police shootings are actually going down.. Have been for 50+ years. You just hear about them now.
I do however think that a lot of the shootings are them being in fear for their lives and bad judgement. Of course, there is the fact that police have no duty to protect individuals. They have a right to life.

Its hard to say. My impression is that this is true. But I can't back it up factually. As the police don't offer stats on this issue. Many articles on the matter have noted the stunning lack of data even though the law mandates it.

Despite that the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 required the government to keep "data about the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers," no such database exists. A study published 14 years ago sought to nail down numbers, but its author conceded to CNN that only 564 of the nation's 18,000 law enforcement entities participated.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/20/us/police-brutality-video-social-media-attitudes/

We really should have access to accurate information on police shootings.

Yes, but there are a lot of politicians who make sure that information isn't collected, the same for the distorted data on 'hate crimes'; if it isn't biased it isn't wanted by many.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Justifiable homicides by police, 2006-2010

2006 386
2007 398
2008 378
2009 414
2010 397
2011 404
2012 426
2013 471
2014 444

Expanded Homicide Data Table 14
Expanded Homicide Data Table 14

And those very low numbers are amazing when taking into account police officers have a 1 in 10 chance of being injured in an assault every year. The media is completely dishonest in their coverage the last few years, and we know why they are, too.

Significantly more people are killed in legitimate shoots by police officers than with 'assault weapons'.

 

[Skylar]

Police shootings are actually going down.. Have been for 50+ years. You just hear about them now.
I do however think that a lot of the shootings are them being in fear for their lives and bad judgement. Of course, there is the fact that police have no duty to protect individuals. They have a right to life.

Its hard to say. My impression is that this is true. But I can't back it up factually. As the police don't offer stats on this issue. Many articles on the matter have noted the stunning lack of data even though the law mandates it.

Despite that the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 required the government to keep "data about the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers," no such database exists. A study published 14 years ago sought to nail down numbers, but its author conceded to CNN that only 564 of the nation's 18,000 law enforcement entities participated.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/20/us/police-brutality-video-social-media-attitudes/

We really should have access to accurate information on police shootings.

Yes, but there are a lot of politicians who make sure that information isn't collected, the same for the distorted data on 'hate crimes'; if it isn't biased it isn't wanted by many.

The politicians made a law that require a database on police shootings. In more than 20 years since the law, there isn't one. Law enforcement agencies generally aren't participating. Its not clear why.

 

[320 Years of History]

Apparently you either don't read well, or you don't want to; your stats don't disprove what I said at all. Those stats show minorities commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage of the population. ...

​

I read well enough to know that the purported fact you put forth in your OP -- the supposed fact that the chart I shared disproves -- and the one above that I've colored in red are not the same things.

 

[Picaro]

Apparently you either don't read well, or you don't want to; your stats don't disprove what I said at all. Those stats show minorities commit violent crimes far out of proportion to their percentage of the population. ...

​

I read well enough to know that the purported fact you put forth in your OP -- the supposed fact that the chart I shared disproves -- and the one above that I've colored in red are not the same things.

And I posted more reliable data that show yours to be wrong, and my point was right, as well as the point I made that you have in red. I don't really care whether you like it or not.

 

[Picaro]

Police shootings are actually going down.. Have been for 50+ years. You just hear about them now.
I do however think that a lot of the shootings are them being in fear for their lives and bad judgement. Of course, there is the fact that police have no duty to protect individuals. They have a right to life.

Its hard to say. My impression is that this is true. But I can't back it up factually. As the police don't offer stats on this issue. Many articles on the matter have noted the stunning lack of data even though the law mandates it.

Despite that the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 required the government to keep "data about the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers," no such database exists. A study published 14 years ago sought to nail down numbers, but its author conceded to CNN that only 564 of the nation's 18,000 law enforcement entities participated.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/20/us/police-brutality-video-social-media-attitudes/

We really should have access to accurate information on police shootings.

Yes, but there are a lot of politicians who make sure that information isn't collected, the same for the distorted data on 'hate crimes'; if it isn't biased it isn't wanted by many.

The politicians made a law that require a database on police shootings. In more than 20 years since the law, there isn't one. Law enforcement agencies generally aren't participating. Its not clear why.

While they made a law, it only covers implementing the Federal database; police dept. participation in sending that data to the Feds is voluntary, not compulsory on their part.