What is a 'Safety Net'

[DustyInfinity]

In a previous thread, someone posted their frustration with Republicans mocking the poor, and said that they are ruining the economy because they are not providing a safety net. I myself am one of these poor people, and I'm not really sure what Democrats want to accomplish. I'm disabled and I have a wife and a step-son I adopted. My whole family has healthcare and we go to the 'poor' clinic for health services. I've got low income insurance, and I have access to meds. Our state has a scholarship program for poor students, and my son is earning himself a shot at an education in a state school. Free school for everyone? That doesn't help any of the poor kids who are already earning their way to a scholarship. The Democrats are saying I should vote for more of working people's money, but that seems pretty pointless and destructive. I can tell you from my own experience that disabled people are not dying in the streets. I find the idea of universal income to be pointless as well. The argument is the government can give everyone a thousand dollars a month, and it will save money over the bureaucracy it takes to determine who actually needs help. This implies that it is impossible to effectively determine who needs aid, so you just give everyone cash. Overall, I think class warfare is pointless and destructive, and I don't see Republicans as mocking the poor, but I just see a frustration with a political party who wants to take money from working people while making life worse for everyone.

most of the people who bitch about "free stuff" are drawing social security, and have medicare for insurance - their safety net.

That is part of my point. The safety net is already there. In my case, disability, I can't see a need to transform the country. I guess the next logical question would be the working poor. Their kids also have programs for their children to attend public universities if they keep up grades and follow guidelines. They are also eligible for medical care and medicine. So again, what safety net are the Democrats pulling for? Medicare for all makes no sense, because the people who need it already have it. Free college is also misguided, because kids that want to go already have that opportunity. In similar threads, my biggest question is always why seek huge one size fits all schemes which target people who don't even need them? We already have programs in place for people who need help. I don't care if you make them better, but why provide mammograms to men and prostrate checks for women while driving costs even higher?

Sounds like you are OK with safety net programs that benefit you, but programs you don't use or need and designed for other folks are unnecessary.

Give me an example of a needed safety net for other folks that isn't already there. Nothing wrong with wanting to help, but when you start making programs that give professors and lawyers government money, I think it might be missing the mark.

 

[petro]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

A cut in government confiscation of income is NOT a giveaway.
Lets dispel that lie.
Most of those things you listed are my personal responsibility, not an inherent right.
Not arguing against a reasonable safety net to help folks get on their feet. However, many take advantage and make it a way of life to live off the generosity of others.

Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society

Oliver Wendel Holmes

 

[rightwinger]

The "safety net?"

That's taking hard earned tax payer money and giving it to non working, irresponsible freeloading Americans.

That's the "safety net."

Helping those who need help

It is what honorable nations do

 

[rightwinger]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

A cut in government confiscation of income is NOT a giveaway.
Lets dispel that lie.
Most of those things you listed are my personal responsibility, not an inherent right.
Not arguing against a reasonable safety net to help folks get on their feet. However, many take advantage and make it a way of life to live off the generosity of others.

Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society

Oliver Wendel Holmes

View attachment 263992

200 plus years and it hasn’t happened yet

 

[Wyatt earp]

Yang's bill doesn't take from "working people."

He states specifically that it's a dividend from companies like Amazon who makes zillions of dollars off people and currently pay ZERO in taxes thanks to Republican policies.

A safety net is exactly what it says, a net that no American should be able to drop below of. A G a month for everyone would stimulate entrepreneurship, business, creativity, etc. the benefits outweigh everything else...by leaps and bounds.

Nice strawman thread though.

So you and Yang thinks that tax won't be passed on to the consumer?

 

[Wyatt earp]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

So you are not responsible for any of that? To think there is enough money floating around to provide for everyone who doesn't want to work is insane. If you are worried about the people who need help, guess what, that help already exists. Make it better, sure, but extreme transformation can only make things worse.

There is enough money to help those who need help

Nobody has ever been better off by receiving less

Some big lottery winners wish they had never won the jackpot

 

[rightwinger]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

So you are not responsible for any of that? To think there is enough money floating around to provide for everyone who doesn't want to work is insane. If you are worried about the people who need help, guess what, that help already exists. Make it better, sure, but extreme transformation can only make things worse.

There is enough money to help those who need help

Nobody has ever been better off by receiving less

Some big lottery winners wish they had never won the jackpot

No idea what you are babbling about

 

[Wyatt earp]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

So you are not responsible for any of that? To think there is enough money floating around to provide for everyone who doesn't want to work is insane. If you are worried about the people who need help, guess what, that help already exists. Make it better, sure, but extreme transformation can only make things worse.

There is enough money to help those who need help

Nobody has ever been better off by receiving less

Some big lottery winners wish they had never won the jackpot

No idea what you are babbling about

Of course you don't...


You think giving a broke ass crack addict money would change their life for the better

 

[petro]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

A cut in government confiscation of income is NOT a giveaway.
Lets dispel that lie.
Most of those things you listed are my personal responsibility, not an inherent right.
Not arguing against a reasonable safety net to help folks get on their feet. However, many take advantage and make it a way of life to live off the generosity of others.

Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilized society

Oliver Wendel Holmes

View attachment 263992

200 plus years and it hasn’t happened yet

Just circling the drain...

 

[initforme]

Without these nets many millions of hard working American citizens would be screwed. Big time. Take them away the nation spirals downhill fast

 

[Wyatt earp]

Without these nets many millions of hard working American citizens would be screwed. Big time. Take them away the nation spirals downhill fast

Funny reality said otherwise, when Congress eliminated the 99 weekers the unemployment dropped like a rock

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

So you are not responsible for any of that? To think there is enough money floating around to provide for everyone who doesn't want to work is insane. If you are worried about the people who need help, guess what, that help already exists. Make it better, sure, but extreme transformation can only make things worse.

There is enough money to help those who need help

Nobody has ever been better off by receiving less

Some big lottery winners wish they had never won the jackpot

They actually have books on that subject.

A place I deliver to had a worker who's husband hit the lottery with several other people where he worked. It was a sizable jackpot, but I forget how much exactly. Anyway she danced out of that place telling people how wonderful it's going to be never coming back and living a much better life. She was back about a year later asking for her job back.

They promised money to all kinds of people not realizing they were going to be taxed. They spent money like it was endless. They bought several homes in various locations across the country not thinking about things like maintenance, property taxes, insurance and utilities. Before they knew it, they were not only dead broke, but in the hole as well.

Money is a responsibility that not everybody is capable of handling.

 

[Staidhup]

Simple answer, the wallet of those that actually pay taxes. That is what the safety net is, don’t believe me, then name one Dim that doesn't advocate massive tax increases.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Since most here do not like the humanitarian answer of why we have a welfare state I'll give the more cynical reason. It's revolution insurance. If you let too many people get hungry in a rich nation they will end up eating the rich. Nothing destabilizes a nation more completely than widespread need ignored by the elites.

If you let hungry people that can't feed themselves, you are correct. But when you feed people capable of feeding themselves, you have what we have now, which is the promotion of laziness and irresponsibility.

Back in 1980 I got my first apartment. I was always fascinated with birds, so one of the first things I did was hang a bird feeder on my back porch.

Eventually winter neared it's end and the snow started to melt, and I had my first opportunity to meet my elderly neighbor. After some small talk, he offered some advice. He said "Ray, what you're doing for the birds with that feeder is a nice thing. But if you leave it up year long, eventually the birds will learn to depend on it. If you become disinterested in feeding the birds, or decide to move to another apartment, you would be doing those birds more harm than good because they will die off forgetting how to obtain food on their own!"

The old mans words haunted me years later. Not because of the birds, but because as I got older, I finally realized that's just what government does to our people; leaving the feeder up year long.

 

[Wyatt earp]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

So you are not responsible for any of that? To think there is enough money floating around to provide for everyone who doesn't want to work is insane. If you are worried about the people who need help, guess what, that help already exists. Make it better, sure, but extreme transformation can only make things worse.

There is enough money to help those who need help

Nobody has ever been better off by receiving less

Some big lottery winners wish they had never won the jackpot

They actually have books on that subject.

A place I deliver to had a worker who's husband hit the lottery with several other people where he worked. It was a sizable jackpot, but I forget how much exactly. Anyway she danced out of that place telling people how wonderful it's going to be never coming back and living a much better life. She was back about a year later asking for her job back.

They promised money to all kinds of people not realizing they were going to be taxed. They spent money like it was endless. They bought several homes in various locations across the country not thinking about things like maintenance, property taxes, insurance and utilities. Before they knew it, they were not only dead broke, but in the hole as well.

Money is a responsibility that not everybody is capable of handling.

That's why I always said God will never let me win the lottery, he knows me to well....I am going to Vegas, with a S'load of cocaine and hookers , I would be dead with in a month.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

A roof over your head, not worrying about your next meal, medical care if you are sick, clothing,

We just gave a $1.5 trillion tax cut to our wealthiest.....we can afford it

So you are not responsible for any of that? To think there is enough money floating around to provide for everyone who doesn't want to work is insane. If you are worried about the people who need help, guess what, that help already exists. Make it better, sure, but extreme transformation can only make things worse.

There is enough money to help those who need help

Nobody has ever been better off by receiving less

There is enough money? Do you suppose we could take some of that money and apply it to our 21 trillion dollar debt?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

In a previous thread, someone posted their frustration with Republicans mocking the poor, and said that they are ruining the economy because they are not providing a safety net. I myself am one of these poor people, and I'm not really sure what Democrats want to accomplish. I'm disabled and I have a wife and a step-son I adopted. My whole family has healthcare and we go to the 'poor' clinic for health services. I've got low income insurance, and I have access to meds. Our state has a scholarship program for poor students, and my son is earning himself a shot at an education in a state school. Free school for everyone? That doesn't help any of the poor kids who are already earning their way to a scholarship. The Democrats are saying I should vote for more of working people's money, but that seems pretty pointless and destructive. I can tell you from my own experience that disabled people are not dying in the streets. I find the idea of universal income to be pointless as well. The argument is the government can give everyone a thousand dollars a month, and it will save money over the bureaucracy it takes to determine who actually needs help. This implies that it is impossible to effectively determine who needs aid, so you just give everyone cash. Overall, I think class warfare is pointless and destructive, and I don't see Republicans as mocking the poor, but I just see a frustration with a political party who wants to take money from working people while making life worse for everyone.

most of the people who bitch about "free stuff" are drawing social security, and have medicare for insurance - their safety net.

Tax deductions on their kids, mortgage deduction

Free Stuff

Taking less from people is never giving them free stuff.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

In a previous thread, someone posted their frustration with Republicans mocking the poor, and said that they are ruining the economy because they are not providing a safety net. I myself am one of these poor people, and I'm not really sure what Democrats want to accomplish. I'm disabled and I have a wife and a step-son I adopted. My whole family has healthcare and we go to the 'poor' clinic for health services. I've got low income insurance, and I have access to meds. Our state has a scholarship program for poor students, and my son is earning himself a shot at an education in a state school. Free school for everyone? That doesn't help any of the poor kids who are already earning their way to a scholarship. The Democrats are saying I should vote for more of working people's money, but that seems pretty pointless and destructive. I can tell you from my own experience that disabled people are not dying in the streets. I find the idea of universal income to be pointless as well. The argument is the government can give everyone a thousand dollars a month, and it will save money over the bureaucracy it takes to determine who actually needs help. This implies that it is impossible to effectively determine who needs aid, so you just give everyone cash. Overall, I think class warfare is pointless and destructive, and I don't see Republicans as mocking the poor, but I just see a frustration with a political party who wants to take money from working people while making life worse for everyone.

most of the people who bitch about "free stuff" are drawing social security, and have medicare for insurance - their safety net.

You mean those programs they were forced to contribute to their entire lives?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

In a previous thread, someone posted their frustration with Republicans mocking the poor, and said that they are ruining the economy because they are not providing a safety net. I myself am one of these poor people, and I'm not really sure what Democrats want to accomplish. I'm disabled and I have a wife and a step-son I adopted. My whole family has healthcare and we go to the 'poor' clinic for health services. I've got low income insurance, and I have access to meds. Our state has a scholarship program for poor students, and my son is earning himself a shot at an education in a state school. Free school for everyone? That doesn't help any of the poor kids who are already earning their way to a scholarship. The Democrats are saying I should vote for more of working people's money, but that seems pretty pointless and destructive. I can tell you from my own experience that disabled people are not dying in the streets. I find the idea of universal income to be pointless as well. The argument is the government can give everyone a thousand dollars a month, and it will save money over the bureaucracy it takes to determine who actually needs help. This implies that it is impossible to effectively determine who needs aid, so you just give everyone cash. Overall, I think class warfare is pointless and destructive, and I don't see Republicans as mocking the poor, but I just see a frustration with a political party who wants to take money from working people while making life worse for everyone.

It's a lie promoted by Democrats that Republicans just want to take all safety nets away. What we want to do is take them away from people that don't need them.

Democrats have spent a lifetime getting otherwise capable people on those programs. If not for victims and government dependents, the only time you'd hear of the Democrat party would be in history books. So it makes sense for them to create more dependents and victims.

But universal income is where I drift off the conservative plantation. I think it's worth looking at IF universal income replaces all social programs. That would mean no more SS, no more Medicare, no more HUD, no more food stamps, no more anything. Just universal income.

I believe it was Switzerland that took the idea to the vote of the people. It failed, but their research showed that by replacing all social programs with UI, it would save the country money.

The way our programs are setup now, sometimes it doesn't make sense to get off of government programs. So it disincentives people from working. UI would be a solution to all that.

It would also solve a host of other problems as well. For instance healthcare insurance. Working people would then be able to afford it. College for your children. It would take families of HUD people out of the suburbs and back into the ghetto where they came from, and that would stop the deterioration of otherwise good neighborhoods. We are a country of declining population of native borns. People limit their family to one or two children in most cases. UI would help solve that problem too. Working people would be able to afford larger families.

Also there would no longer be jealousy of those who don't work by those who do. Nobody could complain about what the poor get because the working are getting the same. People who work and inves that new money would create more financially affluent people. Working couples may be able to survive just fine with a single-income thus allowing more stay at home mothers, or home schooling parents. For a couple who could survive just fine on UI, it would open up more job opportunities for those who need jobs.

It couldn't be a thousand bucks a month though. For it to work, it would have to be double of that. You would have to save for medical care when you get older. You would have to save for retirement for when you can no longer work.

Universal Income replacing all our social programs would solve most of our problems in this country. And if it saves our country money in the long run, why not look at it?

 

[DustyInfinity]

Ray, it goes against every grain of my body to put able bodied people on taxpayer money, but you gave me things to think about. I got lucky and my family gets help, but I can tell you, for every person who scams the disability system, there are at least two more who are really disabled and eaten by the system. If it could stop the class warfare bickering, it might be worth it.