What I love about the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob

[alan1]

Mountain Man, God's children strive not to sin because of our response of gratitude for what Christ did. Do we still sin? Yes, we do. And we ask for forgiveness and He grants it. So in that you can sin all you want and be forgiven, the thing is the true Christian doesn't WANT to sin, but when we do and confess and repent, yes, it IS forgiven.

The CONSEQUENCES of those sins in this life are still looming. For instance, God tells us not to fornicate, but if I sleep around and ask His forgiveness, I am forgiven, but if I caught AIDS in the process, well, we go home all the sooner a saint.

JenT,
I'm not going to crap on your thread, but I will tell you what I think.
In general, humans are nice. The way I see it, most of us want to avoid what you call sin. You may attribute that to god or religion, I attribute it to the inherent goodness of mankind. I don't think god or Jesus has anything to do with it, other than what people try and attribute to them. We are all capable of both evil and love, some of us don't need a deity to steer us in the positive direction.

 

[alan1]

Cool, I can sin all I want and the debt is already pre-paid by God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob
and Mohamed.

Just remember we each pay those debts here in the flesh as ya go along, only the soul was paid for the flesh is given over.

RodISHI,
yes, I will admit I was a bit flippant in my response to JenT.
I see that we all pay debts and/or reap rewards for what we do here and now.
The afterlife reward or punishment is something I don't believe.

 

[JBeukema]

In general, humans are nice... You may attribute that to god or religion, I attribute it to the inherent goodness of mankind.

You fail to account for why that inherent goodness should be the case. the answer? Evolutionary psychology and the moral instinct.

 

[JenT]

Doesn't Satan do the same? Lucifer is the honest one, according to the bible

Lucifer uses half truths as a tactic a lot, sorta like you're doing right now

Incorrect. God lied to Man in the Garden. It was the serpent who told man the truth and gave Man true free will to choose his own fate.

God did not lie. Do you not see the part you are playing?

“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
After Eve laid out what God said, Satan flat out contradicted it:


“You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

WHAT did Satan tempt Eve with? The taste of the fruit? Nope. With doing her own will? Nope.

He tempted her with being like God...with knowing what God knows...

Don't we all want to be more like God? Don't we all want to know what God knows?

When Eve ate the fruit, the Bible says her eyes were opened and she knew that she was naked.

7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

10 So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

A new sense of self-consciousness, one that Eve felt she needed to cover up. The Bible said Adam was afraid. Eating the fruit brought with it fear, insecurity and a sense of shame.

Satan told Eve that her eyes would be opened, and they were, but he lied about how she would be like God. She gained none of God's power or authority over evil, but became aware and vulnerable to it.

What we need is God, just like Eve needed to know God by walking with Him, we grow to be more like Christ by spending time with Him.

"Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Romans 10:17)

Tell me, every genocide ordered in the bible, who ordered it?

Nations wiped out nations all the time. God is the only One with the ability to see into the future and know what would happen if He didn't order the death of cultures that had gotten so bad they were frying their infants in the red hot hands of stone idols like Molech.

Take for instance when God told King Saul to wipe out the (Amorites or Amalakites) God said kill every man, woman and child. God has His reasons, He is God. King Saul didn't do it. For whatever reason God commanded it, I don't know the extent, but I do know that it was a man of the same tribe that eventually slew King Saul.

Before Christ came, we had no hope of cleansing the gene pool from the sins of our heritage, sin pollutes and corrupts and it IS passed down. Since Christ, all have been given the opportunity to receive Christ and become new men. I believe that directly points at why God no longer calls for genocide. It was necessary in Biblical times that the nation of Israel would survive, the nation that brought Jesus Christ for all mankind.

Yeshua was Lucifer, the Morning Star, who ascended above the clouds to sit at the height of the congregation, overturned God's law, replaced God as the judge, and enlightened Mankind

oh JB, no wonder you get so mixed up, I think you're actually trying to make it confusing

Incorrect. Click 'search' I have explained this before.

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

interesting.,.. in Isaiah the Morning Star is Lucifer

Both talk about rising into the heavens, jesus overturned the laws of god, and jesus replaced god as the judge for those who followed him- the very things Lucifer promises to do. He aqlso worked on the Sabbath, disregarded the laws of Leviticus, and, well- pretty much threw out the OT altogether. Good thing, too, for his commandments are far more merciful and benevolent than YHWH's. You see, ever since Eden Lucifer has rebelled against the cruel tyrant of El, who commands the slaughter of young children and orders that they be dashed upon the rocks.

Have you REALLY taken the time to study the Morning Star issue or are you just slapping up a list of criticism from an internet site? Do you honestly care or are you just trying to sow seeds of doubt?

The use of "Lucifer" is ancient, in Latin where it was the term to refer to the planet Venus when it appeared as a star in the morning. Although some early Christian Latin writings refer to "Lucifer", it was the Latin Vulgate that is most responsible for its widespread use. The Vulgate was produced by Jerome (c. 347-420) by translating available Greek and Hebrew manuscripts into Latin. It was started in approximately 382 A.D. and was completed in approximately 405 A.D. It was the scriptures used by the Catholic Church for nearly 1000 years. Here's what the Vulgate says (note the lower case):

Isaiah 14:12 (Latin Vulgate) "quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes

Jerome understood the meaning of the Hebrew word heylel, and translated it into "lucifer", the Latin word meaning "light bearer" (from the Latin lux "light" and ferre "to bear or bring"). "lucifer", at the time of the Vulgate and even at the time of the KJV translation, meant "morning star" or "day star" in reference to Venus. Jerome (and some others before him) thought the passage was referring to Satan in addition to the king of Babylon, and because of this the use the word "lucifer" made the transition from a term referring to Venus to also refer to Satan. In other words, it was because of some peoples' interpretation of the passage that "Lucifer", the "morning star", began to be thought of as referring to Satan in addition to its existing meaning. Early church fathers believed that "Lucifer" is not a formal name of the devil, but instead denotes only the state from which he has fallen. Thus, depending on context, "lucifer" could refer to various things, such as Venus, Satan, Jesus, an angel, a pagan deity, the morning - basically anything that "bears light". There was a fourth century bishop named "Lucifer". "Lucifer" in Dutch means "match" in English, and even appears as such in some English dictionaries. Jerome didn't use "lucifer" to refer only to Satan, and this can be shown by of how Jerome used "lucifer" elsewhere in the Vulgate. Although "Lucifer" only occurs once in the KJV, it occurs multiple times in the Vulgate: once as shown above, and also in:

Job 11:17 (Latin Vulgate) "et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et cum te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer"
Job 38:32 (Latin Vulgate) "numquid producis luciferum in tempore suo et vesperum super filios terrae consurgere facis"
Psalms 109(110):3 (Latin Vulgate) "tecum principium in die virtutis tuae in splendoribus sanctorum ex utero ante luciferum genui te"
2 Peter 1:19 (Latin Vulgate) "et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris"
What is interesting about those verses where "lucifer" is used is what the term is referring to. The KJV was not translated from the Vulgate, but here are those verses in the KJV for comparison, to illustrate what the Latin word "lucifer" meant in the Vulgate:
Job 11:17 (KJV) "And thine age shall be clearer than the noonday; thou shalt shine forth, thou shalt be as the morning."
Job 38:32 (KJV) "Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?"
Psalms 110:3 (KJV) "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth."
2 Peter 1:19 (KJV) "We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: "

So, we learn that the name "Lucifer" in the KJV is more of a transliteration (a new word derived from a foreign word). This transliteration is not even from the original Hebrew, but instead from the Latin. If "Lucifer" in the KJV is strictly a proper name for Satan, then that means the Bible has changed meaning. The term "Lucifer" in the KJV has confused many people today, because the historical meaning has largely been forgotten. However, the use of the word "lucifer" is perfectly acceptable if you understand what "lucifer" really means.
Evidence from the KJV

Isaiah 14:12 & Revelation 22:16 - Will The Real "morning star" Please Stand Up...

 

[JenT]

In general, humans are nice... You may attribute that to god or religion, I attribute it to the inherent goodness of mankind.

You fail to account for why that inherent goodness should be the case. the answer? Evolutionary psychology and the moral instinct.

Evolutionary psychology...so THATS why we're murdering our own babies? Actually pushing them back into the womb to tear them apart?

Is that evidenced by our current moral decline then? Our fascination with movies like SAW, or how about comparing the music of the 40s and 50s about rosy cheeks and sweet lips being replaced with semen in the face? That's our evolution?

I don't know what you're evolving into, I'm stepping off of this ride and standing with with my Savior. But thanks for pointing it out to me

 

[alan1]

In general, humans are nice... You may attribute that to god or religion, I attribute it to the inherent goodness of mankind.

You fail to account for why that inherent goodness should be the case. the answer? Evolutionary psychology and the moral instinct.

It's not that "inherent goodness' should be the case. It is the case.
Sure, there are some evil people in the world, but in general, people are good.
Evolutionarily speaking, it behooves the society when most are good. That applies to all species and their societal structure.

 

[alan1]

In general, humans are nice... You may attribute that to god or religion, I attribute it to the inherent goodness of mankind.

You fail to account for why that inherent goodness should be the case. the answer? Evolutionary psychology and the moral instinct.

Evolutionary psychology...so THATS why we're murdering our own babies? Actually pushing them back into the womb to tear them apart?

Yeah, that part is pretty distressing.

 

[JBeukema]

God did not lie. Do you not see the part you are playing?

“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
After Eve laid out what God said, Satan flat out contradicted it:

He told Adam that; he did not tel Eve

“You will not surely die.

And they did not

5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

And we go, so we are, just as the serpent said

WHAT did Satan tempt Eve with? The taste of the fruit? Nope. With doing her own will? Nope.

Knowledge

He tempted her with being like God...with knowing what God knows...

Some of what god knows- and now we do, just as the serpent said

When Eve ate the fruit, the Bible says her eyes were opened

just like the serpent said

and she knew that she was naked.

7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened,

Like the serpent said...

and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

They did not have the option before they knew. By offering us knowledge, the serpent made true free will possible.

8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

I thought your god was omniscient?

A new sense of self-consciousness

In short, just what the serpent said would happen

, one that Eve felt she needed to cover up. The Bible said Adam was afraid. Eating the fruit brought with it fear, insecurity and a sense of shame.

Wrong, it brought knowledge. God brought fear and shame, for it was his evil and cruel nature that made them fearful of what he might do

Satan told Eve that her eyes would be opened, and they were, but he lied about how she would be like God.

He did not say we would be like god in all ways, but that wee' be like god in that we would know good and evil. He did not say 'like god, all powerful and all-knowing'; he said 'like god, knowing good and evil'

He also said we would not die from eating the fruit, which El had said would bring death; god lied and lucifer told the truth

What we need is God, just like Eve needed to know God by walking with Him, we grow to be more like Christ by spending time with Him.

What we need is for stupid people like you to cease to exist. Religion, superstition, and the glorification held mankind back for thousands of years before reason, logic, and modern science made progress, modern science, space travel, and numerous other advancements possible

"Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Romans 10:17)

circular reasoning...

Nations wiped out nations all the time.

and your god did nothing to stop it, instead ordering genocide and an ethnic cleansing of the region

God is the only One with the ability to see into the future and know what would happen if He didn't order the death of cultures that had gotten so bad they were frying their infants in the red hot hands of stone idols like Molech.

since he couldn't appear to them and reveal himself outside of the 'chosen race'?

Take for instance when God told King Saul to wipe out the (Amorites or Amalakites) God said kill every man, woman and child

The slaughter of children? This is your god of love?

Before Christ came, we had no hope of cleansing the gene pool

'cleansing the gene pool'? Where have we heard that before?




Your next argument is simply to argue that your god is incapable or unwilling to defend its word

 

[JBeukema]

It's not that "inherent goodness' should be the case. It is the case..

as predicted by evolutionary psychology and explained through the moral instinct

 

[JenT]

God did not lie. Do you not see the part you are playing?

“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
After Eve laid out what God said, Satan flat out contradicted it:

He told Adam that; he did not tel Eve

You're kidding right? You totally blew it, thinking you had a lie in the Bible and now you're feinting to God told Adam not Eve???

“You will not surely die.

And they did not

Really??? Have you met them? Where do they live?

5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
And we go, so we are, just as the serpent said

You deleted the context I already laid out. Half truths. Do you see the part you are playing?

Why are the quotes discontinued?

 

[JenT]

I'll have to put this together, not used to quote system here...

Quote:
Jen: WHAT did Satan tempt Eve with? The taste of the fruit? Nope. With doing her own will? Nope.

JB: Knowledge

Jen: Half truth. You're playing a dangerous game.

Quote:
Jen: He tempted her with being like God...with knowing what God knows...

JB: Some of what god knows- and now we do, just as the serpent said

JEN: NOTHING like what the serpent said, here you go twisting it. He said:

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

We are not like God in knowing good and evil. If we were there would be NO SIN because God does not mix with sin. Satan lied in the worst way. He deceived her, just as she later states and God doesn't deny. Very dangerous game you're playing, do you not know the consequences in Acts of Elymus who tried to pervert the word of God?

Quote:
and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

JB: They did not have the option before they knew. By offering us knowledge, the serpent made true free will possible.

Jen: You're kidding right? Now that they know the consequences of sin you credit the serpent with "true free will"? What choice is there at this point? It's a FALLEN STATE, they have no choice to go back to a sinless world, they chose sin. Christ, God Himself in the flesh, came down to reconcile us...and you twist His words like this? Do you realize what you're doing to yourself right now?

Quote:
8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

JB: I thought your god was omniscient?

He is. God knew. Ever hear of confession? Where are you right now, JB? I'm not talking about your physical location. God is teaching Adam about confession with the first sin.

Quote:
Jen: A new sense of self-consciousness

JB: In short, just what the serpent said would happen

Jen: No, JB, as gently as I can say this, the serpent tempted Eve into a fallen state, and she is dead now just as God said she would be. He had to remove them from the garden that they would not eat of the Tree of Life and remain in that state forever.

Atheists complain of how a God that loves us could leave us in a world as wicked as this but He is here, and this world is the world of God's free will to choose evil and he does, over and over again. But heaven will not be like this because sin will not be in heaven. Christ has brought some of us out of this for a heavenly position and I hope you reconsider which choice you are making.

Quote:
Jen:, one that Eve felt she needed to cover up. The Bible said Adam was afraid. Eating the fruit brought with it fear, insecurity and a sense of shame.

JB Wrong, it brought knowledge. God brought fear and shame, for it was his evil and cruel nature that made them fearful of what he might do

Jen: That's how you see God? Because I see God on the cross, bleeding buckets of blood to pay the price for us to come home again to Him. He has such a passion for us, JB, for both of us. He saw every hurt you ever suffered, He knows every reaction you ever made, every evil you ever committed, every tear you ever shed, and He is filled with a heart of longing and love for you. You and every unbeliever are the reason we're all still waiting to go home. That you have time to seek and find...if only you would.

Quote:
Jen: Satan told Eve that her eyes would be opened, and they were, but he lied about how she would be like God.

JB: He did not say we would be like god in all ways, but that wee' be like god in that we would know good and evil. He did not say 'like god, all powerful and all-knowing'; he said 'like god, knowing good and evil'

Jen: JB, read it again. That is exactly what he said. That is exactly what Eve heard. To be like God is exactly what she was shooting for, but it was a lie.

JB: He also said we would not die from eating the fruit, which El had said would bring death; god lied and lucifer told the truth

Jen: It did bring death because God always knew the end result. Nothing catches God by surprise, not even this. But if He doesn't allow us to play it out then all of eternity and all of heaven and all of the hosts of heaven would not know the truth. We are the display of our own doing, and all of heaven is amazed at God's grace in what He does to bring us back to Him.

Quote:
Jen: What we need is God, just like Eve needed to know God by walking with Him, we grow to be more like Christ by spending time with Him.

JB: What we need is for stupid people like you to cease to exist. Religion, superstition, and the glorification held mankind back for thousands of years before reason, logic, and modern science made progress, modern science, space travel, and numerous other advancements possible

Jen: oh yes, we would be so much better off if we aborted babies much sooner, is that it? Euthanasia, look where our public schools have gone since you've been teaching our kids that they came from apes. Look at the moral decline of our society, you call this, better?

Modern medicine has done amazing astounding things, so has modern technology and everyone watches in awe, but is the overall state of our planet in better shape? Man has learned how to combat illness only to impose greater woes with a depraved mind. You think we are better off? Do you? Well, we will both see where it will take us as this darkness is spreading over our land and liberalism is taking over. You can show us all the wonders you intend to bring us in God's place. But if you don't mind, I'll bitterly cling to my Bible and the Cross, because I know this life is very short compared to the eternal position which is ultimately what this life is all about.

Quote:
Jen: "Faith comes from hearing and hearing by the Word of God." (Romans 10:17)
JB: circular reasoning...
Jen: Oh JB, it's so blessed and rich

Quote:
Jen: Nations wiped out nations all the time.
JB: and your god did nothing to stop it, instead ordering genocide and an ethnic cleansing of the region
Jen: And if He had not this planet would be in such worse shape! GOD ALONE has the power and authority to direct who lives and who dies, who are His and who are not, you won't be able to escape that because even in death He is God.

Quote:
Jen: God is the only One with the ability to see into the future and know what would happen if He didn't order the death of cultures that had gotten so bad they were frying their infants in the red hot hands of stone idols like Molech.
JB: since he couldn't appear to them and reveal himself outside of the 'chosen race'?
Jen: As God? Man can not stand in the presence of God in our current state, we would fry. The Jews came close at Mt. Sinai and if I remember right, the noise was causing them to go deaf. Moses alone (that I can remember) ever stood even close to God. But I think you're pointing at the miracles those cultures would demand to turn from their sins. But man has always run to sin, JB, it's why we need Christ.

Quote:
Jen: Take for instance when God told King Saul to wipe out the (Amorites or Amalakites) God said kill every man, woman and child
JB: The slaughter of children? This is your god of love?
Jen: Yes. From heaven's perspective death is a release, the suffering is here. Children under the age of accountability will have the chance to choose in the milenium but I'm not 100% sure of how that works. Those old enough to choose, chose. Those nations were like rabid dogs that would bite God's children and tear them to pieces, living in such sin and perversion and well on their way to worse as God knows, and God was not going to allow the bearers of the Messiah to be torn apart and corrupted with cultural sin. It was that imperative for Christ to come, God protected the root of Jesse.

Quote:
Jen: Before Christ came, we had no hope of cleansing the gene pool
JB: 'cleansing the gene pool'? Where have we heard that before?
Jen: From a twisted evil man that set out to destroy God's children, claiming to be Christian to boot, though the Bible never authorized anything like that, far from it.

JB: Your next argument is simply to argue that your god is incapable or unwilling to defend its word
Jen: Where in God's green earth would you get that idea?

Before Christ came, we had no hope of cleansing the gene pool[/quote]

'cleansing the gene pool'? Where have we heard that before?

Jen: Do you not see, JB, satan will do anything and everything to wipe out the Jews because if he can achieve that, then he would make God out to be a liar with all the prophesies about the Jews in the end times?

Satan's time is shortening, and he is desperate, he knows his fate. Why is it everything is always pointing at the destruction of the Jews? Satan hates you, me, the Jews, you do not want to take his part in perverting scripture to try to disprove God. He sent the Christ for you. For YOU. There is no limit to His knowledge of you, He created you, He has a purpose and a plan for you JB. His thoughts for you have always been good. Always.


Your next argument is simply to argue that your god is incapable or unwilling to defend its word.

??? That is the hope of all of hell. Why would I argue that?

 

[JenT]

In general, humans are nice... You may attribute that to god or religion, I attribute it to the inherent goodness of mankind.

You fail to account for why that inherent goodness should be the case. the answer? Evolutionary psychology and the moral instinct.

It's not that "inherent goodness' should be the case. It is the case.
Sure, there are some evil people in the world, but in general, people are good.
Evolutionarily speaking, it behooves the society when most are good. That applies to all species and their societal structure.

Mountain Man (and I really gotta go soon) we are good by man's standards but the standard is God's. And by God's standards we all far short. That's why this world is as evil as it is. That's why it's got to go through the purifying fire before heaven. That's why we need a Savior, because we cannot withstand that fire.

 

[JBeukema]

God does not mix with sin.

I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

-Isaiah 45:7


Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts...

Satan lied in the worst way.

Lucifer is the only one who told the truth in the bible. AL the most evil acts were ordered by El. Speaking of which, women are supposed to remain silent in church

-The Reverend James Teunis Beukema

Jen: You're kidding right? Now that they know the consequences of sin you credit the serpent with "true free will"? What choice is there at this point? It's a FALLEN STATE

Incorrect. Man was enlightened by the serpent, who is a false memory of the Annunaki...

, they have no choice to go back to a sinless world, they chose sin.

They had no choice before the serpent opened their eyes

Christ, God Himself in the flesh, came down to reconcile us...

Incorrect. Jesus is describes as Lucifer is described, and he overturned the law that El had given his prophets. Yeshua was Lucifer or one of his servants, come to free mankind. This is the only logical conclusion that can be drawn.

He is. God knew. Ever hear of confession? Where are you right now, JB?

I stand beside Enki, who was among the Grigori, the watchers and keepers of Man

Jen: No, JB, as gently as I can say this, the serpent tempted Eve into a fallen state,

Incorrect. The serpent, whose exact name remains unknown, told us what the consequence would be, that we would know not only good but also evil. The choice was set before Eve and she chose

and she is dead now just as God said she would be. He had to remove them from the garden that they would not eat of the Tree of Life and remain in that state forever.

They were to be denied the tree of life either way, if you recall. This only 'changed' (not really) when El/YHWH sought to woo back the created ones with promises of immortality

Atheists complain of how a God that loves us could leave us in a world as wicked as this but He is here, and this world is the world of God's free will

True free will and choice can pnly exists where there is knowledge. True free will and self-determination was only possible after Man's eyes were opened.

Jen: That's how you see God? Because I see God on the cross, bleeding buckets of blood to pay the price for us to come home again to Him

Really? And how do you think El lost possession of the earth? You say that god killed himself to repay himself to get the earth back from himself which he had lost... Do you not realize the absurdity of the lies you have been led to believe?

.

Jen: JB, read it again. That is exactly what he said. That is exactly what Eve heard. To be like God is exactly what she was shooting for, but it was a lie.

Incorrect. Read it again. He said exactly what I said was said, like god(s), knowing good and evil

Jen: It did bring death because God always knew the end result. Nothing catches God by surprise, not even this

You contend that a god who wished for none to fall made a flawed creature and a deceiver knowing that they would fall- yet it's a god of love who wishes for none to fall?

.

Jen: oh yes, we would be so much better off if we aborted babies much sooner, is that it?

red herrring and strawman

Euthanasia, look where our public schools have gone since you've been teaching our kids that they came from apes

Humans are apes, hon. In fact, we're great apes

Modern medicine has done amazing astounding things, so has modern technology and everyone watches in awe, but is the overall state of our planet in better shape

No worse than it was before

Well, we will both see where it will take us as this darkness is spreading over our land and liberalism is taking over.

you do realize than American Conservative grew out of Classical Liberalism, right?

Jen: And if He had not this planet would be in such worse shape!

incorrect. If deity wanted to 'fix it', it would reveal itself to more than one tribe of barbarians. Remember that your religion is merely a bastardization of Sumerian texts

Jen: As God? Man can not stand in the presence of God in our current state, we would fry.

Incorrect. Moses was said to have done just that

Quote:
Jen: Take for instance when God told King Saul to wipe out the (Amorites or Amalakites) God said kill every man, woman and child
JB: The slaughter of children? This is your god of love?
Jen: Yes.

Quote:
Jen: Before Christ came, we had no hope of cleansing the gene pool
JB: 'cleansing the gene pool'? Where have we heard that before?
Jen: From a twisted evil man that set out to destroy God's children, claiming to be Christian to boot, though the Bible never authorized anything like that, far from it.

Bull. the Jews said their god said to kill all non-believers

 

[JBeukema]

Why would I argue that?

That is what you have said

 

[Kalam]

You have to understand that...

Why? By what authority do you claim to know my life better than I do? And Who the author of it is?

I don't believe that I ever made that claim. If that's the impression you got from my post, I apologize for wording it poorly.

I know what I have seen and touched, I know how I've been healed and Who healed me, I know Who saved my life on a deserted highway and I know Who's ways radically changed my life.

Most of us feel or have felt similarly at some point in our lives. I'm familiar with the euphoria that accompanies believing that God decided to effect some dramatic change in my life, and I understand its appeal. I questioned my beliefs, however, and recognized them as products of wishful thinking and indoctrination. That isn't to say that I'm necessarily right and you aren't - that will only be found out in death.

I've seen dramatic evidence of His hand in my life time and time again, but my telling you about it isn't going to open your eyes.

That was my point in the last post.

I believe that you believe you've witnessed miracles and acts of divine intervention, but, as I said, I'm not inclined to believe that those seemingly miraculous occurrences can be attributed to anything supernatural.

That's between you and the Holy Spirit.

But thanks for the feedback

Thank you for the response. I'm interested in your beliefs concerning divine intervention, though. Why would a God with omniscience and absolute foreknowledge need to actively meddle in the affairs of the physical universe?

 

[Kalam]

by "higher" if you thought I meant diety, you're right, but I didn't mean that.

But the cornerstone of Ilsam is the "shahada" which states:

"I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His servant and messenger."

That is because belief in Muhammad's status as a messenger is one of the primary distinctions between Islam and similar belief systems.

Say: We believe in Allah and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus, and that which was given to the prophets from their Lord, we do not make any distinction between any of them and to Him do we submit. - 2:136​

And this is EXACTLY what teachers have been asking students to repeat and memorize in class so we can "understand" what it is to be Muslim.

Talk about a rip of religious freedom. I did NOT send my sons to public school so they could memorize prayers and speak words of praise and worship to other gods.

Judge Hamilton stated that because the child in the lawsuit over this didn't actually BELIEVE what he was told to memorize and repeat, it was allowable.

Any teacher in this nation has the legal authority to have our kids do this. The US Supreme Court wouldn't hear the case. Our government has negotiated with terrorists and this ruling is poised for future use.

Jen, I don't mean to be insulting when I tell you that you're being paranoid. As someone who is familiar with public school systems and curricula, I can say with confidence that Islam is talked about infrequently and is generally only discussed within a historical context. Fundamental beliefs may be outlined, but the government isn't out to convert your children to Islam. Any attempt to use an isolated occurrence to characterize the public school system at large is shamefully propagandistic.

 

[Kalam]

Basically, all I did was point out that Ishmael, the first son of Abraham, was included in the eternal blessings that God promised Abraham.

The next thing I read is JenT attacking Islam, Muslims, and Muhammad.

This is typical when ever I deal with most Christians.

I was just seeking common ground and a friendly dialogue.

But she immediately went on the attack.

Kind of sad

It happens a lot, even within our religion. Some people are determined to vilify other belief systems or religious interpretations and refuse to emphasize common ground and positive aspects of the beliefs of others.



Again, Jen, I don't want to sound mean or condescending, but your posts regarding Islam reek of exposure to propaganda. I don't possess the self control necessary to sit silently while my religious beliefs are being misconstrued and presented as some sort of abomination.

 

[JBeukema]

I questioned my beliefs, however, and recognized them as products of wishful thinking and indoctrination.

Kalam is not longer a Muslim?

 

[Kalam]

Of course not. I mean eye witness accounts can prove a man to be a murderer beyond a reasonable doubt and put him to death. But why on earth should they prove the existance of God? I mean just because you may have seen or heard God. Or felt his presense in your life or seen miracles or been involved in miracles doesnt mean that God exists. Why believe your experiences? We should just believe everyone who says they cant know rather than looking into it ourselves.

Alright, sarcasm aside, why ignore evidence of the divine and then claim there is none? it doenst make sense to me. It never has.

I understand your point, but I think evidence presented in court tends to be held up to higher standards than what is commonly accepted as anecdotal proof of an active God. Moreover, we're all aware that criminal acts take place regularly. Breaking the law does not require compromising the laws that govern the physical universe as divine intervention does. Continuing the legal analogy, it's safe to say that someone would be laughed out of court if he claimed that somebody committed murder by shooting bolts of lighting from his fingertips - something about as scientifically plausible as an interfering God.

 

[Kalam]

I questioned my beliefs, however, and recognized them as products of wishful thinking and indoctrination.

Kalam is not longer a Muslim?

No, the questioning took place some time ago. I was a staunch literalist.