What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[tycho1572]

B

The Law has discretion, crimes have degrees, and there is a wide range of acceptable penalties and the degree to which it is enforced.

And human beings have the ability to exercise better judgement. They should be able to deem what is acceptable and what isn't.

Tell me, what is wrong with smuggling an innocent child across the border? In this case, the punishment should fit the crime.

And curiously... in cases of unaccompanied minors, why are they unaccompanied? Where are their parents?

This is ludicrous. All of it.

But the punishment is on child. What crime of the child is it fitting?

That would be a good question for the democrats who keep blocking a solution to this problem.

 

[Coyote]

What Human Cost is Tolerable to promote open, uncontrolled borders?

That isn’t the issue.

 

[Coyote]

Is the cost paid by the children worth the punishment inflicted on the children? Does that make sense?

No. To avoid the cost, don't commit to the transaction. I am flummoxed by how hard this is for some people to understand.

Cause and effect. Don't like the effect? Don't be the cause.

Fine. But the kids pay. What did the kids do wrong?

The kids pay because their parents violated our laws. Why are these parents violating our laws? Because democrats keep telling them they can!

Except that doesn’t make sense since deportations were way up under a Democrat president...

Should the kids have to pay?

This problem is trying to fixed by Trump. Can you expla

B

The Law has discretion, crimes have degrees, and there is a wide range of acceptable penalties and the degree to which it is enforced.

And human beings have the ability to exercise better judgement. They should be able to deem what is acceptable and what isn't.

Tell me, what is wrong with smuggling an innocent child across the border? In this case, the punishment should fit the crime.

And curiously... in cases of unaccompanied minors, why are they unaccompanied? Where are their parents?

This is ludicrous. All of it.

But the punishment is on child. What crime of the child is it fitting?

That would be a good question for the democrats who keep blocking a solution to this problem.

Last I heard Trump agreed to a bill and then changed his mind at the last minute.

 

[TemplarKormac]

But the punishment is on child.

No, it's not. And if it were, then the punishment is being inflicted on the child by a careless parent.

When a crime is committed, something of value or endearment must be taken away from you as punishment.

If you kill someone, then your freedom and/or your life.
If you steal, your freedom.
If you commit financial crimes, your money.

And unfortunately, in this case, when you smuggle a live human child across the border of our country for the sole purpose of coming here illegally, your child. The child has done nothing wrong. The parent on the other hand has, in my mind, done something patently unforgivable.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ok. Let’s say the parents are selfish. Is this a good policy?

The selfishness or the law?

Obviously selfishness is bad policy . The policy Sessions put in place regarding how he will enforce the law?

Now see here! I'm not a tongue type of guy!

In all seriousness, yes. It is a good, fitting policy. I don't think any parent deserves to keep their child when they subject them to this hellish process, no matter how well intentioned they might have been.

A good thing to do, instead of teaching illegals how to skirt our immigration laws, teach them how to obey our immigration laws. These parents are often ignorant of the policy changes being made in the US on a daily basis. This is also another reason why they lose their children when they get here.

Actually I believe they know everything that's going on in our country. I believe they knew about Trump being our President and how anti-illegal immigration he is, but they came anyway to see if they can start trouble among the citizens just to get in.

 

[tycho1572]

No. To avoid the cost, don't commit to the transaction. I am flummoxed by how hard this is for some people to understand.

Cause and effect. Don't like the effect? Don't be the cause.

Fine. But the kids pay. What did the kids do wrong?

The kids pay because their parents violated our laws. Why are these parents violating our laws? Because democrats keep telling them they can!

Except that doesn’t make sense since deportations were way up under a Democrat president...

Should the kids have to pay?

This problem is trying to fixed by Trump. Can you expla

B

The Law has discretion, crimes have degrees, and there is a wide range of acceptable penalties and the degree to which it is enforced.

And human beings have the ability to exercise better judgement. They should be able to deem what is acceptable and what isn't.

Tell me, what is wrong with smuggling an innocent child across the border? In this case, the punishment should fit the crime.

And curiously... in cases of unaccompanied minors, why are they unaccompanied? Where are their parents?

This is ludicrous. All of it.

But the punishment is on child. What crime of the child is it fitting?

That would be a good question for the democrats who keep blocking a solution to this problem.

Last I heard Trump agreed to a bill and then changed his mind at the last minute.

What bill was that?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Is the cost paid by the children worth the punishment inflicted on the children? Does that make sense?

No. To avoid the cost, don't commit to the transaction. I am flummoxed by how hard this is for some people to understand.

Cause and effect. Don't like the effect? Don't be the cause.

Fine. But the kids pay. What did the kids do wrong?

The kids pay because their parents violated our laws. Why are these parents violating our laws? Because democrats keep telling them they can!

Except that doesn’t make sense since deportations were way up under a Democrat president...

Should the kids have to pay?

LA Times

Court Deportations Drop 43 Percent in Past Five Years

 

[Coyote]

But the punishment is on child.

No, it's not. And if it were, then the punishment is being inflicted on the child by a careless parent.

When a crime is committed, something of value or endearment must be taken away from you as punishment.

If you kill someone, then your freedom and/or your life.
If you steal, your freedom.
If you commit financial crimes, your money.

And unfortunately, in this case, when you smuggle a live human child across the border of our country for the sole purpose of coming here illegally, your child. The child has done nothing wrong. The parent on the other hand has, in my mind,done something patently unforgivable.

Ok....I think in this case you way wrong....because a child isn’t a thing or property. It is a person with rights as well. That is why we don’t punish children for what their parents did. Though we used to.

 

[TemplarKormac]

If a parent is making the difficult choice to leave a horrible situation, they are not a bad parent.

If they are going to subject their child to a horrible situation, just to escape another horrible situation, what has changed for the child, Coyote?

 

[Coyote]

Is the cost paid by the children worth the punishment inflicted on the children? Does that make sense?

No. To avoid the cost, don't commit to the transaction. I am flummoxed by how hard this is for some people to understand.

Cause and effect. Don't like the effect? Don't be the cause.

Fine. But the kids pay. What did the kids do wrong?

The kids pay because their parents violated our laws. Why are these parents violating our laws? Because democrats keep telling them they can!

Except that doesn’t make sense since deportations were way up under a Democrat president...

Should the kids have to pay?

LA Times

Court Deportations Drop 43 Percent in Past Five Years

“While Mr. Obama has deported more foreigners than any other president, the pace of deportations has recently declined.”

 

[Coyote]

If a parent is making the difficult choice to leave a horrible situation, they are not a bad parent.

If they are going to subject their child to a horrible situation, just to escape another horrible situation, what has changed for the child, Coyote?

The situation they were leaving was worse.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Ok....I think in this case you way wrong....because a child isn’t a thing or property. It is a person with rights as well. That is why we don’t punish children for what their parents did. Though we used to.

The one thing you're failing to realize is that I'm not wanting the child to be punished. I want the child to be treated like a human being. Apparently the parents seem to think they are "things" or "property" because they have to smuggle them. Yes. What do you do with drugs if you're in a drug cartel? You smuggle them. What do you do if you're a thief with stolen property and need to get your filched goods from one place to another? You smuggle them.

You're right, they aren't things or property, but their parents are using them as leverage over another sovereign government in order to get here themselves. That, Coyote, is not acceptable.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The Law has discretion, crimes have degrees, and there is a wide range of acceptable penalties and the degree to which it is enforced. That is a good, it allows judges and enforcement to consider circumstances including what is best for all affected parties while still following the law. That means if immigration enforcement apprehend adults with children and they suspect that they are not the parents and human trafficking might be occurring, they can seperate them. Likewise, if they think that the adult is in fact the child’s mother they can keep them together until the hearing decides whether they will stay or be deported, as a unit.

So that's how we should do things, by the way people "think?"

I'm sorry, but "thinking" is not acceptable to change policy pro or con.

 

[tycho1572]

Democrats know our laws don’t say anyone can come into this country. Why do they keep pretending they do?

 

[TemplarKormac]

If a parent is making the difficult choice to leave a horrible situation, they are not a bad parent.

If they are going to subject their child to a horrible situation, just to escape another horrible situation, what has changed for the child, Coyote?

The situation they were leaving was worse.

(Chuckles)

No.

What is worse is not having a relationship with your parent. Not having the guidance of a parent. I should know, I lived without knowing my mom or dad for the better part of a decade before my father chose to come back and atone for himself. My grandmother has more than picked up the slack, but there's always that wanting there, that regret of not knowing or being loved by the people who brought you into this world.

And I will never look kindly on parents who do these kinds of things to their children. Not ever.

 

[Coyote]

Ok....I think in this case you way wrong....because a child isn’t a thing or property. It is a person with rights as well. That is why we don’t punish children for what their parents did. Though we used to.

The one thing you're failing to realize is that I'm not wanting the child to be punished. I want the child to be treated like a human being. Apparently the parents seem to think they are "things" or "property" because they have to smuggle them. Yes. What do you do with drugs if your in a drug cartel? You smuggle them. What do you do if you're a thief with stolen property and need to get your filched goods from one place to another, you smuggle them.

You're right, they aren't things or property, but their parents are using them as leverage over another sovereign government in order to get here themselves. That, Coyote, is not acceptable.

What would you do as a parent in that situation TK?

 

[tycho1572]

Democrats would lure a family across a mine field if they thought it would get them a vote.

 

[DJT for Life]

Having the types of parents that they do is torture enough.

You're sure? I mean, one could give them electric shocks and put them on a starvation diet. That would REALLY show those parents!

There parents don't give a shit now. We're just helping the children with
a basic lesson in life. The lesson being..."For every behavior...there is a
consequence."

Bad behavior calls for a bad consequence.

There is legal immigration and their is illegal immigration. There is no
bad consequence with legal immigration.

I am sure that the lesson will be learned. Next time, the kids will choose better parents....

Or maybe become better parents when they have children. It'll be one helluva long shot with them being from Central America, but at least
we would have done our part.

If they could choose better parents next time around, here's hoping they
choose Democrats. They won't be faced with this type of a problem
then. They'll have been aborted 6 months before delivery date.

Can't stay on topic? Short attention span?

I answered your question. I assumed that would be classified as
staying on topic.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Is there a point at which punishing the parents for their behavior becomes punishing the kids?

No. The punishment inflicted on the child is the parent's fault. You have a very kind and sweet heart, Coyote, but at some point the compassion has to end, and law and order must begin. We cannot dilute the law to a point where it is satisfactorily amiable to those of us looking out from the inside. Law has no purpose if we refuse to enforce it or we change it to a point that it has no effectiveness.

But TK...you are still missing the point. Ok, let us say it is the parents fault. Is what is being done to these kids worth it? Is the cost paid by the children worth the punishment inflicted on the children? Does that make sense?

Of course it makes sense. Keep pandering to these people, and millions more WITH KIDS will follow in their footsteps. I hope this news gets back to the countries they came from to deter others from doing the same. I hope it makes them change their minds if they thought they could come here and have us provide for them and their children.

You have to stop this. Pandering to them does just the opposite. Maybe these particular children will suffer a little bit, but in doing so, it will stop a lot more children in the future from suffering.

 

[SassyIrishLass]

Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump:

"If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law," Attorney General Jeff Sessions said Monday at a law enforcement conference in Scottsdale, Arizona. "If you don't like that, then don't smuggle children over our border."

Administration officials explained that the goal of the program is 100 percent prosecution of all who enter the U.S. illegally. When adults are prosecuted and jailed, their children will be separated from them, just as would happen for a U.S. citizen convicted and jailed.​

Anguish at Southwest border as more immigrant children are separated from parents

The Trump administration's willingness to take children from their parents has raised concerns about how far authorities should go to stem unauthorized border crossings and what human cost is acceptable in the name of border security and immigration control.

"There is something terrible happening here that Americans would not support if they understood it," said F. Scott McCown, director of the Children’s Rights Clinic at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law.​

I don't care how much you hate illegal immigrants this is EVIL. You are punishing the children. It's abhorrant and wrong and inexcusable. I hope they rot in hell for this. 700 children so far have been seperated from the only family they know and lost to our often incompetent and mismanaged child care system. I fail to see how any parent could support actions like these.

When parents are held for prosecution, their children are turned over to the Office of Refugee Resettlement, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. The children are then designated as "unaccompanied minors," and the government tries to connect them to family members who are already in the U.S. Until then, children wait in shelters or are sent to federally contracted foster homes, often without parents being told exactly where they are, immigration advocates said.

It may soon become even more difficult to place children with relatives. The Department of Homeland Security is proposing immigration checks be done on all people in a household who may take in these "unaccompanied" children, which means relatives who are undocumented may be less likely to come forward.

In the meantime, space in shelters and foster homes is limited; The Washington Post reported the administration plans to open facilities at military bases to house some of the separated children.​

Yes, this is terrible. I think I know of a solution though: If you have children, STF away from our borders.

A good parent wouldn't subject their child to this.

They know the risks before they try to enter so it's difficult to feel sorry for them.