What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[Ray From Cleveland]

Not really. That would be like saying the war on murder failed or the war on theft. Laws don't eliminate crime in our country, it controls it to some degree.

Ive never heard of a war of murder. A war on drug, yes. Anyways, we haven't won a war since WWII, and even then, we needed help.

Well......I don't believe there was ever a war on women either. Catchy title, but no real wars in reality.

In the past couple of years a few people I knew (and related to) died because of drugs. Legalizing it just isn't a good idea. One time my apartment was robbed by drug addicts, another time a drug addict tenant of mine nearly burned my house down, it's just too much of a problem.

Legalizing all dope would make matters five times worse.

People die because illegal drugs are full of poison. They should at least legalize methadone and other healthier alternatives in programs and treatments. It is now totally out of control. GOP policy Law and Order Nanny state is a disgrace, along with our default GOP immigration policy, Mental Health non-system, living wage not!, Giant tax cuts for the rich and service cuts for everyone else, b******character assassination propaganda machine 4 haters like you. 35 years of regression and garbage. Great job!

You are too brainwashed to discuss this issue; you're too far gone already. Everything in the entire world is the GOP's fault in your tiny mind.

Just since Teddy Roosevelt... Twenties, wrecked League of Nations and World economy, 30s isolationist GOP let Hitler and Japanese run wild, since then stupid Wars and covert anti democracy, then Reagan ism Wrecking our country and the Middle East.

 

[Natural Citizen]

You are too brainwashed to discuss this issue; you're too far gone already.

He does not understand that he will not be immune to the monster he wants to create.

 

[OKTexas]

Yes, it does become our problem when they cross our boarders. Mexico does send them back and they grant asylum to only 1 in 20 that apply. With the deteriorating relations between the US and Mexico, they're probably busing them to the US boarder so they'll be our problem.

They are not our problem, Mexico is our problem. It's no different than if we sent these people to the Canadian border. We did it to them. We should not be allowing them to trample across our land into Canada.

Hate to break your bubble, but Mexico does not send these people to the US. Although Mexico is a lot tougher on illegals than we are, a lot get through and they probably don't do much to stop them.

Mexico could certainly do a better job stopping these people in their country so they do not reach our boarder. However, why should they do that? Exactly what is the US doing for Mexico other than insulting and threatening them daily. US Mexican relations are the worst they been in decades, thanks to Trump so I certainly wouldn't expect any help from them on immigration or drug enforcement.

Is that what you think? Then how did our media pickup on the fact this current crop of people were on their way here two weeks before they arrived?

Of course Mexico allows them to come here; they always have. They know why they are coming here and give them their blessing.

Mexico allows them to come here, and then they are our problem. They bring kids with them, and then they are our problem. They disappear and never show up for court, and then they are our problem. Gangs form and sell drugs, and then that is our problem.

Solution to our problem? Close the southern border down completely. I'm sick of problems invading our country and then we have to spend the money and find a solution to those problems.

It's pretty hard not to notice hundreds of people marching across the country headed toward the US boarder.

You don't seem to get it. It is not the responsibility of Mexico to protect our boarders. Does the US stop people headed for the Mexican boarder or the Canadian border?

You're being incredible xenophobia. You consider Honduran families fleeing from violence and seeking refuge as invaders when the problem is not of their making. You lay the blame for gangs selling drugs on immigrants when the real problem is the US huge demand for illegal drugs.

If you're really tired of this shit, then you should be supporting a plan that will actually work regardless of who is in the white house or which party is controlling congress. Trump can't possible come anywhere close to deporting 12 million undocumented immigrants during his term in office. The deportations he's doing now is barely keeping up with the inflow of immigrants. Without support from both parties, nothing is going to change.

But you're never going to get support from both parties--only one. The Democrats goal is to get as many of these immigrants into this country as possible. Why do you suppose they are fighting to keep their sanctuary cities and states? Why do you suppose they stopped Kate's Law? Why do you suppose they are really against the wall? Does this sound like a group of people wanting to stop illegal immigration?

If the US allowed a band of Mexicans to cross our country into Canada, then yes, the US is responsible for not stopping them long before they hit the Canadian border. We should have stopped them at the Mexican border.

Actually maobama let a bunch into the US and they went to Canada. At first they accepted them with open arms, now not so much.


.

 

[Flopper]

Just the same, they applied legally as asylum seekers, obeyed the law and we still separated the families for another other reason other than spite.

They come anyways knowing what will happen, so not our problem.

They are following the law, like I said there is no reason to separate families other than spite. We need immigration into this country, our economy depends on it.

We need EDUCATED immigration, not just maids and fruit pickers.

No, actually we don't.

More Unskilled Workers, Please

Unskilled Immigrants Do Not Harm Americans

The Danger From Low-Skilled Immigrants: Not Having Them

Read the articles, I could pull out quotes from them but I get the feeling I'm already wasting my time linking the articles.

Other than that treating people like cattle is inhumane no matter how you want to make excuses for it.

Sorry, I don't believe in open borders. And I don't believe in filling the country with unskilled workers. I didn't say we didn't need ANY, just not a free-for-all.

Despite the narrative that uneducated, unskilled immigrants enter the US to dominate the job market, the data tells a different story. Foreign-born individuals in the U.S are just as likely as native born Americans to be college educated with 1/3 of immigrants holding a bachelor’s degree or higher. America has switched from importing people who are, on average less educated than the natives to people who are better educated. If immigration quotas and trends remain unchanged, leadership in America business is going to look a lot different in the future.
Nearly Half of Immigrants Enter the U.S. With a College Degree

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Not sure about that. Read about Portugal after 10 years of decriminalization of all drugs. With the illegal drug business estimated at 40 billion a year and growing rapidly, we will reach a point where we will have no choice. I'm not in favor of it but we're running out of options. The war on drugs was lost decades ago. There is no way we can control the growing use of illegal drugs.
Ten Years Ago Portugal Decriminalized All Drugs. What Happened Next? | The Fix

There's possibly a minor flipside to legalizing drugs.

The cartels will see their cash cow dwindle away. It is possible, likely even, that those drug wars will move across our border and we might see Americans killed in their own country if the cartels see legalization as competition.

Of course, that's conjecture. But legitimate conjecture, I think.

I remember when they were trying to get the lottery passed in our state many years ago. One of the claims was that it would stop illegal gambling and wipe out the mob. Instead, the mob started to use the new lottery numbers for their own game. They just had a better payout than the lottery and did even better.

When they pushed the issue of legalized pot in Colorado, it was claimed that it would stop the illegal sales of pot on the street. What actually happened is that pot dealers beat the price of high taxed legal weed, and they are selling more than ever.

 

[OKTexas]

You would shrivel up and blow away if you didn't have your hate for the GOP, be careful what you wish for.


.

Yes I know you are brainwashed about democratic Party evil and Corruption. With no evidence of course. GOP corruption and crime are well documented. Their giveaway to the greedy idiot corrupt rich and outrageous propaganda has ruined the rest and the country the last 35 years.

Success envy, that's sooooooooooooooooooo you. ROFLMFAO


.

I have no problem with Rich Democrats,, just low life greedy idiot lying thieving or just playing greedy GOP rich, super duper. Change the channel.

OH OKAY, so you're just a plain old hypocrite.


.

Rich Democrats want to be taxed their fair share, for the good of the country, doop.

You really believe that and you call me a doop. ROFLMAO

Tell me doop, how many are making voluntary donations to the government? You should take up fishing, you're damn sure not very good at this.


.

 

[Natural Citizen]

It would help if intelligent policies were passed LOL!

Well. I dunno, Franco. Forrest Gump's mama always said that stupid is as stupid does. Remember that movie? I always liked that movie. I must have seen it a guhzillion times.

Of course, Menken was always delightfully thoughtful. He'd mentioned that the most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable.

And that every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.

Oh how I long for that day, Franco. Though, I doubt it will happen in our lifetimes. The people's will to finish something only goes so far as the next reality television show. And grown men stand around and watch while their unarmed peers are beaten to a bloody pulp, sometimes death itself, by men from the government with guns.

 

[protectionist]

This trash does not deserve a reply. It's alt-right propaganda and false news which is what you get from the links like Eagle Forum and Diggers Realm.

The Mexican Manual for Crossing the boarder, "Counselor Protection Guide" was published 14 years ago when Mexicans were flowing across the boarder at a rate of 500,000 a year, over twice what it is today). In 2000 to 2005, 300 to 500 people/yr were dying at or near the boarder crossings. US boarder enforcement was totally inadequate. 90% of the boarder was protected only by barbed wire fencing. Boarder Patrol Agents numbered less than 4,000 compared to the 19,000 today. Large US farms were advertising in Mexico for field hands promising wages five times what they were earning. This is the context of period when the pamphlet was written. It should also be noted that the pamphlet was available at US Consulates.

The purpose of pamphlet, "Counselor Protection Guide" was written to save lives, warn immigrants about dangers of crossing. However, for those who had decided to make the attempt there was life saving advice and instructions as to how to conduct yourself in the US. The pamphlet begins:

"Dear fellow citizen:
This guide tries to provide you with some practical advice that may be useful to you in case you have made the difficult decision to seek new work opportunities outside of your own country.

The safe way of entering another country is by first obtaining your passport, which is issued by the Delegations of the Secretariat of Foreign Relations, and your visa, which you request at the Embassy or Consulate of the country to where you wish to travel."

The pamphlet is 29 pages, half of which is filled with warnings of the dangers of crossing and alien smugglers. It warns of consequences of not having legal documentation. The remainder of the pamphlet advises what to do and not to do in US such as never run from the boarder patrol, never lie to any immigration agents, never claim a false nationality, never resist arrest, never carry false documents, never carry a weapon, never drive without a drivers license etc.

I think this pamphlet is far more likely to discourage illegal boarder crossing than encourage them and would likely help save lives. You be the judge.
Mexico's Official "Guide For The Mexican Migrant" | www.dallas.org
A Mexican Manual for Illegal Migrants Upsets Some in U.S.
Mexico–United States barrier - Wikipedia
Illegal Immigration on Decline, Report Finds

You talk like we're not allowed to talk about thr recent past. Recall that I started my post with >> "Mexico has BEEN sending these illegals to us for decades." So yes, it's talking about the recent past. That's allowed you know. But all this past stuff isn't just past. Mexico still is raking in $28 Billion/year in remittances from the USA. Wanna slam this source too ? >>>

Remittance Flows Worldwide in 2016

As for your claims about false news, it is YOUR post that is false. Vicente Fox did indeed brag and gloat about US remittances being Mexico's # source of revenue, and Diggersrealm is 100% factually correct about that, and it is YOU who are INCORRECT.

As for eagle forum, just like Diggers Realm, they also are factually correct, and the link shows actual reprints of the guidebook itself, and readers can see for themselves. That can't be propagandized.

What a laugh to hear liberals talk about propaganda, all the while that they go around citing such pathetically fake news outlets as CNN, and the New York Laughingstock Times, which has been a joke ever since they went up against the National Enquirer, and came out with egg all over their New York faces. Remember that ? Times has never recovered from it.

Lastly, Mexico doesn't have to send migrants here as a way of perpetrating 21st century imperialism, and pillaging the US for $28 Billion/year + tens of Billion$$ more in welfare relief (us paying their poverty bill). Instead, if they had an ounce of decency, they would break up their monopolies, spread the economy around to the Mexican population in general, and print a guidebook to help Mexican entrepreneurs get started in business, instead of one about running off to the US.

They have made a choice. They've chosen to retain their monopoly economy (Telex, Pemex,etc), and make their biggest income $$$ parasiting the USA, and they're doing it every bit as much now, as when screwball Fox went around blabbering and bragging about Mexico's plunder of the US economy.

 

[OKTexas]

They come anyways knowing what will happen, so not our problem.

They are following the law, like I said there is no reason to separate families other than spite. We need immigration into this country, our economy depends on it.

We need EDUCATED immigration, not just maids and fruit pickers.

No, actually we don't.

More Unskilled Workers, Please

Unskilled Immigrants Do Not Harm Americans

The Danger From Low-Skilled Immigrants: Not Having Them

Read the articles, I could pull out quotes from them but I get the feeling I'm already wasting my time linking the articles.

Other than that treating people like cattle is inhumane no matter how you want to make excuses for it.

Sorry, I don't believe in open borders. And I don't believe in filling the country with unskilled workers. I didn't say we didn't need ANY, just not a free-for-all.

Despite the narrative that uneducated, unskilled immigrants enter the US to dominate the job market, the data tells a different story. Foreign-born individuals in the U.S are just as likely as native born Americans to be college educated with 1/3 of immigrants holding a bachelor’s degree or higher. America has switched from importing people who are, on average less educated than the natives to people who are better educated. If immigration quotas and trends remain unchanged, leadership in America business is going to look a lot different in the future.
Nearly Half of Immigrants Enter the U.S. With a College Degree

Immigrants, not illegal aliens.


.

 

[protectionist]

I'm okay with State ID, but we don't want a national ID card.

The GOP is actually moving in that direction. That's what the whole voter ID thing is about except their base is too shallow to realize it. The humor of it is it'll give the illegal immigrants a national ID card, too.

Worse yet, a national ID card is a contradiction of what a free society is all about.

No it's not. A national ID card is already in existence. it's called a birth certificate, and it is what validates a citizens right to vote. It, as well as naturalization papers, are the only things that does that.

These should be required for voting, but as yet, our system is the lack of verification. 22 states don't even require ANY ID at all, and none require citizenship ID. All of this is an invitation for illegal voters. This needs to be fixed in addition to the abolition of mail voting.

Being a free society doesn't mean being free to do anything one wants. We're not "free" to kill, steal, rape, commit arson, etc., nor should people be free to illegally vote.

 

[Flopper]

It's sad you can't distinguish between criminals who traffic humans back and forth across the border and legitimate refugees..or recognize the huge amount of suffering that is caused to those refugees by the people who smuggle other people...who you insist we protect..while whining that we try to protect the children they exploit and abuse at teh same time.



And legitimate refugees.

Explain to me how a policy that confiscates 100% of the children makes that distinction?

I will wait.

When are you going to get through your head that the federal courts say a child can't be detained more than 9 days. The courts are dictating the removal of children, not the administration.


.

Removal of children to where? The streets? back home to their home countries where they belong? in 9 days. Ok.

I never saw the 9 day rule but I'm sure there must be one. Children who accompany parents to detention are either held with parents in a family detention center or they're separated. Currently the administration opts to separate the parents and their children.

The children are turned over to US Health and Human Services who keep them until they are turned over to a foster care agency for placement. In foster care, they are often moved from family to family. Recently it was reported that DHS was unable to determine the whereabouts of nearly 1500 kids. This means the parents will likely be deported without their kids under the Trump zero tolerance policy.

The administration doesn't "opt" for anything. The law says that children cannot be detained longer than 5 days, unless there's a huge backlog of cases, in which case it can be extended to 20 days, but that's it. The administration has no choice, unless you want President Trump to act like King Trump and simply rewrite the law himself (as Obama did).

This is NOT "Trump's policy". HIS policy is not to use this as an excuse to turn the adults loose and let them wander away and vanish.

As for "1500 missing kids", you really need to stop getting your "news" from social media. HHS reported that it made follow-up calls to check on the kids, and about 1500 of them couldn't be reached by phone and their guardians didn't call back. Do you usually overreact and assume someone is "missing" if they don't answer the phone?

It certainly is an option. There are over half dozen family detention centers used by ICE. Families can be detained in family detention centers, but not un-escorted children.

Taking children away from parents is an old and rather discussing tactic used by every administration. It goes like this. Plead no contest or not guilty and you will be united with your family. Plead guilty and you can be detained and separated from your family for up to a year waiting for trial, and no we have no information as to what has happened to your family. Not surprising, almost all parents plead guilty and the administration gets faster deportations.

 

[percysunshine]

Jeff Sessions and Donald Trump:

"If you are smuggling a child then we will prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you as required by law," Attorney General Jeff Sessions said Monday at a law enforcement conference in Scottsdale, Arizona. "If you don't like that, then don't smuggle children over our border."

Administration officials explained that the goal of the program is 100 percent prosecution of all who enter the U.S. illegally. When adults are prosecuted and jailed, their children will be separated from them, just as would happen for a U.S. citizen convicted and jailed.​

Anguish at Southwest border as more immigrant children are separated from parents

The Trump administration's willingness to take children from their parents has raised concerns about how far authorities should go to stem unauthorized border crossings and what human cost is acceptable in the name of border security and immigration control.

"There is something terrible happening here that Americans would not support if they understood it," said F. Scott McCown, director of the Children’s Rights Clinic at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law.​

I don't care how much you hate illegal immigrants this is EVIL. You are punishing the children. It's abhorrant and wrong and inexcusable. I hope they rot in hell for this. 700 children so far have been seperated from the only family they know and lost to our often incompetent and mismanaged child care system. I fail to see how any parent could support actions like these.

When parents are held for prosecution, their children are turned over to the Office of Refugee Resettlement, part of the Department of Health and Human Services. The children are then designated as "unaccompanied minors," and the government tries to connect them to family members who are already in the U.S. Until then, children wait in shelters or are sent to federally contracted foster homes, often without parents being told exactly where they are, immigration advocates said.

It may soon become even more difficult to place children with relatives. The Department of Homeland Security is proposing immigration checks be done on all people in a household who may take in these "unaccompanied" children, which means relatives who are undocumented may be less likely to come forward.

In the meantime, space in shelters and foster homes is limited; The Washington Post reported the administration plans to open facilities at military bases to house some of the separated children.​

None of this stuff would be an issue if the Latin American Socialists were not destroying their own countries and driving their populations into flight.

Honduras which is where most of the asylum seekers are coming from is a democratic republic like the US but the leadership is far right. Honduras is a great example what can happen in a poor country under far right conservative leadership. The government, the national and local police are so corrupt it's hard to say whether the gangs or the police are worse.

The most recent numbers available actually show that 80% of refugees seeking asylum in the US come from Africa.

Ah...fleeing the Arab Spring. Another foreign policy gift from Susan Rice.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I'm okay with State ID, but we don't want a national ID card.

The GOP is actually moving in that direction. That's what the whole voter ID thing is about except their base is too shallow to realize it. The humor of it is it'll give the illegal immigrants a national ID card, too.

Worse yet, a national ID card is a contradiction of what a free society is all about.

No it's not. A national ID card is already in existence. it's called a birth certificate, and it is what validates a citizens right to vote. It, as well as naturalization papers, are the only things that does that.

These should be required for voting, but as yet, our system is the lack of verification. 22 states don't even require ANY ID at all, and none require citizenship ID. All of this is an invitation for illegal voters. This needs to be fixed in addition to the abolition of mail voting.

Being a free society doesn't mean being free to do anything one wants. We're not "free" to kill, steal, rape, commit arson, etc., nor should people be free to illegally vote.

A free society means liberty form government-over-man, as I 'd said earlier in the thread. Not once did I insinuate that people were free to kill, steal, and rape.

And I'm offended that you''re creating the illusion that I did so.

And a birth certificate isn't a card attached to a biometric, trackable, database with an unlimited amount of documents attached to it, including a very vague discription of what surmises whether ot not one might be a terrorist.

 

[MaryL]

The human cost of illegal immigration. Entire industries that were blue collar lower middle class just vanish, people lose long time jobs, and can't find work. Illegal or questionable Mexican immigrants just subvert the entire lower economic system, and poor blue collar American jobs are given to whetters. So that's the harm in blithely allowing illegal so called "immigrants" in here without question, well, let me tell you... I have seen poor Americans living in tents , they live hand to mouth and in quiet desperation. Their kids go without supper, and THEY too want a better life. I think we need to give sanctuary to American poor, not Mexican wet backs.

 

[protectionist]

LOL. I can't help but laugh about that time the National Enquirer handed the New York Times its ass in the credibility smear fight. I'm just curious,.... Does anybody remember that ?

 

[protectionist]

A free society means liberty form government-over-man, as I 'd said earlier in the thread. Not once did I insinuate that people were free to kill, steal, and rape.

And I'm offended that you''re creating the illusion that I did so.

And a birth certificate isn't a card attached to a biometric, trackable, database with an unlimited amount of documents attached to it, including a very vague discription of what surmises whether ot not one might be a terrorist.

I created nothing about you, and if you're offended, that is NOT MY PROBLEM.

And a birth certificate may not necessarily be a biometric, trackable, database, but it does have one thing that all that stuff you mentioned, ordinarily does not have > proof of citizenship and the right to vote.

 

[Flopper]

Well then, perhaps LEFTISTS shouldn't have been total pricks and insisted on it.

Link?

Court orders release of detained immigrant kids, not parents | Daily Mail Online

.

That is our wonderful justice system and Constitution, NOT LEFTISTS, CONSPIRACY NUT JOBS.

Pass a good work ID card and enforce it. And end this crap.

Why not enforce e-verify?


.

E-Verify is mostly a volunteer program. If it becomes mandatory, everyone who works, 150 million would have to be verified to get a job. If only 1% of the data is wrong, it will effect 1.5 million workers. The data for E-verify comes from 20 different databases from over a dozen different agencies so how do you get it corrected? Maybe a better question, how do you get your new employer to hold the job open while you get the E-Verify mess fixed.

Of course most people that hire undocumented immigrants, know they are undocumented and they hire them anyway.

 

[MaryL]

I said this before (wink wink). I have no idea on what level, but there needs to be a investigation and deep investigations into what is driving minor local officials to create sanctuary cities for illegal aliens, it seems some body is overstepping here.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Worse yet, a national ID card is a contradiction of what a free society is all about.

No it's not.

Alright. Let's do it this way.

You disagreed with my assessment that a national id card was a contradiction of what a free society is all about.

You said, specifically, ''no it's not.''

Do you support a National ID card? If so, then, why? If not, then, why not? And how, precisely, is a national id card not a contradiction of what living in a free society is all about?

I do not support National ID cards for reasons I've laid out. Though, if necessary, I'm willing to be very, very, thorough in explaining why I do not consent to the National ID card and what is wrong with a National ID card.

What's the conservative view that I'm missing here? I like to learn.

francoHFW you're gonna want to see this. Remember what I was saying to you earlier?

Well, we're gonna demonstrate it here. protectionist is gonna teach us what's so conservative and what is so free about a national id card. He's gonna teach us how being free means we need a national id card.

 

[MaryL]

If you look up "sanctuary cities" you will find that it is NOT a part of the democratic process. It is actually antidemocratic and imposed on us without our consent...And that, given the fact how illegals have disrupted and otherwise shattered our lower class into oblivion, I am not liking this situation to much.