What do Catholics mean when they say

[Dhara]

That wasn't the case for me in 1981, when my father died. The RCC has made many improvements but they came too little to late for me and my dad.

In 1981 I was alternating between two Catholic parishes in the town in which I lived. It had been the case in both these parishes for quite some time, and I'm speaking of over a decade. I do understand that it one town, and smaller towns may not have all the ministries available in larger ones.

I was ten years old when we were taught about God's mercy and All Souls Day--and that was quite awhile before 1981. Remember, Judas is thought to have committed suicide, and the Church doesn't teach Judas is in hell.

Sure, that's what you were taught. I seem to have been taught something different.

 

[Meriweather]

Looking back at my whole relationship with the RCC, and how it was practiced so rigidly and so shame-based in my family, I realize that being Catholic isn't a uniform experience.

The good that came out of my father's suicide was leaving my dysfunctional family of origin and religion of origin for good.

Personal perspective can indeed make the difference. From the time I was a little one, I was hearing about the great love of God and how that love was manifested down through the ages and would be in our own lives as well. This does not mean my childhood was perfect--indeed it was not. But I do credit the Catholic Church for dropping me directly into the lap of God (so-to-speak) and His great love.

Only my own opinion, but it seems to me that biggest mistake people can make is to rely on what they learned as a child about God--or about any faith. Even people who had good childhood experiences with God and religion have barely skimmed the surface of what is possible to learn in adulthood.

 

[Meriweather]

Sure, that's what you were taught. I seem to have been taught something different.

In our parish, the Sisters of Notre Dame, were some of the most excellent teachers in my academic career. Two were the absolute worst possible anywhere, ever. I think the difference is that after I left school I was still interested in pursuing Biblical and Church history. That may have helped to eliminate or smooth over any childhood misconceptions. The teachers I had in middle school years were great in handling the smart-ass, challenging questions middle schoolers are so famed at forming.

 

[Vandalshandle]

My experience with the Catholic Church (as well as another "top down" church, the LDS) is that all questions that are challenging are considered "smart ass", if they come from anyone youthful. They are considered to be resulting from a "crisis in faith" if they come from an adult. Either way, they are considered to be by people in danger of embracing "false doctrine".

 

[Dhara]

More than God's love, I heard about his condemnation.

 

[Vandalshandle]

More than God's love, I heard about his condemnation.

Well, the church is god's pal, and god is so mad that he wan't talk to me at all, so the church has to relay his messages.

 

[zaangalewa]

... My father committed suicide. It was after that I put the RCC behind me.

Strange. You never was a Catholic and you are not a Buddhist too, isn't? I guess you are just simple an Atheist who hates the catholic church on no reason to do so. But why do you say so? "My father commited suicide." ... Really? ... That's extremly weird ... in both cases - if he did so or not. For what is the suicide of the own father a reason? What happened? What's the reason why you try to attack the catholic church while you hide yourselve behind such a weird shield? No Catholic ever did you anything bad, isn't it?

 

[zaangalewa]

My father committed suicide. It was after that I put the RCC behind me.

That was a very wise decision Dhara.

Wise decision? ... How emotionless is such a stupid sentence? ... What is this what you demonstrate here? A completly wrotten mind? If his father really made suicide then this is a very heavy personal catastrophe. Not many things are more terrible. What do you call "wise" in this context?

 

[Dhara]

This is not one of thosethings I ought to be discussing here. My apologies for bringing i t forward.

 

[Meriweather]

My experience with the Catholic Church (as well as another "top down" church, the LDS) is that all questions that are challenging are considered "smart ass", if they come from anyone youthful. They are considered to be resulting from a "crisis in faith" if they come from an adult. Either way, they are considered to be by people in danger of embracing "false doctrine".

I don't see it that way. Absolutely, kids will try to sidetrack a lesson and try to make their classmates laugh. With kids it is excusable because that's just the way their minds work when things don't make sense. My teachers didn't let the way a question was framed throw them. They turned it into a serious question and answered it. In other words, rather than dismissing the question because of how it was framed, they were up to the challenge.

Challenging questions are not a crisis in faith, rather I see it as a great interest--that mostly have to be researched and answered by the individual.

 

[Meriweather]

More than God's love, I heard about his condemnation.

When I was in ninth grade I was awarded the Scribe and Pen award--a pretty big deal in our school. I was really excited....until almost on top of receiving the award I read Jesus denouncement of Scribes. It wasn't for years that I learned the Scribes Jesus spoke of were more lawyers than authors of short stories. I was left to wonder why God had given me the talent to write if He hated writers. I decided if God made me that way, and He didn't like it, it was up to Him to fix me. Because of my home life, I was also wondering why God made me as someone not even a mother could love. I decided it was up to Him to fix that as well.

I understand condemnation. As I matured, I learned that once I stopped making everything so much about me and more about God and what He is able to do despite everything we misunderstand, this life (and our ordeals) makes better sense.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, the church is god's pal, and god is so mad that he wan't talk to me at all, so the church has to relay his messages.

Instead of thinking God as mad or angry, try approaching Him as though He is shy and introverted.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Well, the church is god's pal, and god is so mad that he wan't talk to me at all, so the church has to relay his messages.

Instead of thinking God as mad or angry, try approaching Him as though He is shy and introverted.

...like Donald Trump?

 

[Dhara]

More than God's love, I heard about his condemnation.

When I was in ninth grade I was awarded the Scribe and Pen award--a pretty big deal in our school. I was really excited....until almost on top of receiving the award I read Jesus denouncement of Scribes. It wasn't for years that I learned the Scribes Jesus spoke of were more lawyers than authors of short stories. I was left to wonder why God had given me the talent to write if He hated writers. I decided if God made me that way, and He didn't like it, it was up to Him to fix me. Because of my home life, I was also wondering why God made me as someone not even a mother could love. I decided it was up to Him to fix that as well.

I understand condemnation. As I matured, I learned that once I stopped making everything so much about me and more about God and what He is able to do despite everything we misunderstand, this life (and our ordeals) makes better sense.

Sounds like it's been quite the journey for you. Me too. A different religious outcome, but one that sustains me and offers me the opportunity to give back to my family and community.

 

[Dhara]

Well, the church is god's pal, and god is so mad that he wan't talk to me at all, so the church has to relay his messages.

Instead of thinking God as mad or angry, try approaching Him as though He is shy and introverted.

That doesn't make any sense to me, that "God" has a human personality.

 

[Penelope]

This is not one of thosethings I ought to be discussing here. My apologies for bringing i t forward.

That was the teaching of the RCC and have since they have come to more understanding and that those who commit suicide are in a dark place and they have also changed their mind on unbaptized babies being in limbo, but both have cause many people pain throughout the years. No one knows anything of what happens after death.

 

[Vandalshandle]

This is not one of thosethings I ought to be discussing here. My apologies for bringing i t forward.

That was the teaching of the RCC and have since they have come to more understanding and that those who commit suicide are in a dark place and they have also changed their mind on unbaptized babies being in limbo, but both have cause many people pain throughout the years. No one knows anything of what happens after death.

The catholic church would not allow the parents to bury their daughter in cosecrated ground. She was a dear friend of mine, when she committed suicide in 1965. They made the same decision (including the limbo, mumbo jumbo) about my wife's first child, who was born dead, without being baptised, in 1970. During my lifetime, they also stopped requiring latin mass, and meatless Fridays. I have no idea what their current teachings are, but if I had been catholic, I would have told them long ago that they were short on compassion and long on dogma....and to let me know when they finally decided just what displeases god this year.

 

[Meriweather]

That doesn't make any sense to me, that "God" has a human personality.

We are made in the image and likeness of God. This doesn't make God human, doesn't make us God, but we do share, in different ways, similar traits. The story of Elijah's meeting of God made a great impression on me. With something as magnificent and as infinite as God, one would expect to meet Him in powerful events. Yet, Elijah encountered God in a quiet whispering sound.

Moses also had an interesting experience. He learned that when God is directly in front of us, we are blinded. It is after God passes (i.e., only in hindsight) that we can identify the presence of God.

We are also taught not to let our right hand know what our left hand is doing. God seems to be a master at that.

We can see Godliness in each of these examples. We humans cannot enfold ourselves in a tiny whispering sound; we are better seen directly, not in hindsight; and we leave evidence of where we have been and what we have done all over the place. I'm simply advising people who are looking for God and cannot seem to find Him, that they may be on the lookout for something eye-catching and powerful. Instead of looking for macro, try micro.

 

[Meriweather]

The catholic church would not allow the parents to bury their daughter in cosecrated ground. She was a dear friend of mine, when she committed suicide in 1965. They made the same decision (including the limbo, mumbo jumbo) about my wife's first child, who was born dead, without being baptised, in 1970. During my lifetime, they also stopped requiring latin mass, and meatless Fridays. I have no idea what their current teachings are, but if I had been catholic, I would have told them long ago that they were short on compassion and long on dogma....and to let me know when they finally decided just what displeases god this year.

Prior to the 1960s (and it appears in some places even during the 1960s) Catholic funeral masses were said for victims of suicide, but because it is a grave sin, burial in a Catholic cemetery at that time would have been cause for scandal--as were burials of divorced and remarried Catholics. Since then, the world has learned more about the mental health of many suicide attempts.

"Limbo" was never a place for infants. "Limbo" was the state the Church was in when it was asked about the fate of unbaptized babies. Scripture does not address this situation, so the Church cannot say, "This happens" or "That happens." The Church simply entrusts the situation to God. The usual practice is that if the parents were baptized and intended to have their child baptized (i.e., attended the baptismal classes) babies would be in the same situation as catechumens preparing for adult baptism. Burial in a Catholic cemetery is permitted in both cases.

Masses were said in Latin, because this dated back centuries when Latin was the common language nearly everyone understood. The Church elected to use the common language, rather than an elite language.

Meatless Fridays were about forming a bond and understanding with the poor. It went hand-in-hand with alms giving.

The Church has always taught compassion, but equally, has always pointed to the ideal. Suicide is not the ideal. In the last fifty years with more knowledge available, there are Catholic ministries to support family and friends of suicide victims.

 

[Vandalshandle]

The catholic church would not allow the parents to bury their daughter in cosecrated ground. She was a dear friend of mine, when she committed suicide in 1965. They made the same decision (including the limbo, mumbo jumbo) about my wife's first child, who was born dead, without being baptised, in 1970. During my lifetime, they also stopped requiring latin mass, and meatless Fridays. I have no idea what their current teachings are, but if I had been catholic, I would have told them long ago that they were short on compassion and long on dogma....and to let me know when they finally decided just what displeases god this year.

Prior to the 1960s (and it appears in some places even during the 1960s) Catholic funeral masses were said for victims of suicide, but because it is a grave sin, burial in a Catholic cemetery at that time would have been cause for scandal--as were burials of divorced and remarried Catholics. Since then, the world has learned more about the mental health of many suicide attempts.

"Limbo" was never a place for infants. "Limbo" was the state the Church was in when it was asked about the fate of unbaptized babies. Scripture does not address this situation, so the Church cannot say, "This happens" or "That happens." The Church simply entrusts the situation to God. The usual practice is that if the parents were baptized and intended to have their child baptized (i.e., attended the baptismal classes) babies would be in the same situation as catechumens preparing for adult baptism. Burial in a Catholic cemetery is permitted in both cases.

Masses were said in Latin, because this dated back centuries when Latin was the common language nearly everyone understood. The Church elected to use the common language, rather than an elite language.

Meatless Fridays were about forming a bond and understanding with the poor. It went hand-in-hand with alms giving.

The Church has always taught compassion, but equally, has always pointed to the ideal. Suicide is not the ideal. In the last fifty years with more knowledge available, there are Catholic ministries to support family and friends of suicide victims.

There was nothing vague about what the priest told the woman who later became my wife, about her baby, who was born dead, and not baptised. He told her that the baby was in limbo, and that consequently she and the baby were separated for eternity, and that the baby could not be buried in consecrated ground. She stood up, walked out, and never returned.