what determines whether a person goes to heaven or not?

[ABikerSailor]

God exists. He's been here from the beginning.

Unfortunately, those who love religion (and trying to out purify those the don't even know), have muddied the waters.

God didn't want religion, He wanted us all to achieve Spirituality.

I'm not a human looking for a religious experience, I'm a Spiritual Being having a human one.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

There were two churches in the book of Revelation whom God did find acceptable in his sight. The church of Symrna and the church of Philadelphia. Both churches held one thing in common. They held fast to the Word of God and did not deny the name of Jesus Christ. If you can do those two things - even if you have backslidden - God will help you. Read it for yourselves.

The church Jesus warns he will reject is the Laodicean church ( among others) because it has not held fast to the Word of God - they preached a false gospel of prosperity and seeking after riches and therein misled many and denied Jesus Christ. They did not hold fast to His Word.

The Laodicean church is what you see on televisions in America. These are the mega churches - itching ears have flocked to - to hear a smooth word. They are very wealthy - these false preachers drive Bentleys and own private jets and some have best selling books. These are the ones to which Jesus has this warning:

Revelation 3: 17-20 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich: and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the same of thy nakedness do not appear and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, be zealous therefore and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with me.

I believe we have entered into the time of the wise and foolish virgins now. The wise virgins are filling their lamps with oil and have answered the call to come to the banquet table of his Love ( Song of Solomon) . The foolish virgins are the ones who were invited to come to the Kings Wedding banquet he had prepared for them but they refused to come when told by the Kings Servants that all things had been made ready and it was time to come - see the Wedding Banquet parable in Matthew 22.

The King said, those ones who were invited to come were not worthy ( the Laodicean church is a harlot and a type of the "foolish virgins" who will be shut out of the wedding chamber - it will soon be too late for these ones ) and so the King had his Servants go out to the highways and byways to invite the good people and the bad people so that the banquet hall would be filled for his Son's wedding banquet party. And when they were invited they all came!

I find that to be the most amazing thing. That when the King sends his Servants out to invite the homeless, the hurting, the lame, the sick, the needy, the prisoner, the prostitute, the drug dealer, the tax collector, they all said YES! The banqueting hall was filled with these guests! Oh! God is so good! He truly is. He has prepared a Wedding banquet feast for His Son and He is going to fill that banquet hall! He knew all along exactly who would come. Gods wisdom, mercy and love is beyond anything we can fathom.

- Jeri

 

[Chuckt]

They held fast to the Word of God and did not deny the name of Jesus Christ. If you can do those two things - even if you have backslidden - God will help you. Read it for yourselves.

I like.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

I am going to hazard the guess that the gates of heaven are not protected by an Iris scanner.

 

[BreezeWood]

Irish: That's our future when Christ returns

Jeremiah: They held fast to the Word of God and did not deny the name of Jesus Christ ... God will help you.

IlarMeilyr: I am going to hazard the guess that the gates of heaven are not protected by an Iris scanner.

.


not a lot of Fear in those Christians ... seems being expelled to them is like a holiday.


when Christ returns ...

have the Christians (anyone) brought to Justice the Crucifiers ? (Hint: that would be a good first steep)


"Gods" concern is with the Species, not the individual - its either all or non.

.

 

[hobelim]

I'm a born of God saint who you judged and since I'm a saint WHO'S desires of the flesh have been removed by God....

Clearly, your sins against grammar have not been removed by God....

.

LOL...


If one does not care about being rational why would they care about grammar?

God has already removed all the desires of his flesh but I bet he still eats, he just hates it.

Hey, but the good news is that if you would only set your rational mind aside and just believe in gibberish, you too could loathe everything about life.

 

[hobelim]

I am going to hazard the guess that the gates of heaven are not protected by an Iris scanner.

I bet you are right but if one shows up at a black tie event wearing filthy rags and reeking of cheep wine and vomit, the doorman has no choice but to throw them out into the darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Irish: That's our future when Christ returns

IlarMeilyr: I am going to hazard the guess that the gates of heaven are not protected by an Iris scanner.

.


not a lot of Fear in those Christians ... seems being expelled to them is like a holiday.


when Christ returns ...

have the Christians (anyone) brought to Justice the Crucifiers ? (Hint: that would be a good first steep)


"Gods" concern is with the Species, not the individual - its either all or non.

.

The God in Whom I believe would have no need or even desire to create a "Son" who had to suffer the slings and arrows of being a human being only to end up tortured and crucified as His way of agreeing to forgive His creations for their "sins."

We don't think it makes sense anymore to sacrifice lambs to 'atone" for OUR "sins," yet the almighty Creator of All would find it necessary to have His own Son killed before He could "forgive" us?

That's crazy talk.

One can accept the teachings of Jesus without buying into all the dogmas associated with religion, especially the magical mystical mumbo jumbo that defines the most basic of common sense. The God in Whom I believe doesn't care -- wouldn't care -- if I have doubts about such things, either. He absolutely would not punish me for having such logical doubts.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

I am going to hazard the guess that the gates of heaven are not protected by an Iris scanner.

I bet you are right but if one shows up at a black tie event wearing filthy rags and reeking of cheep wine and vomit, the doorman has no choice but to throw them out into the darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Ok. Before I get to the Pearly Gates, I WILL wash up and put on my best suit.

Too bad I won't have a body to wash or a body to put a suit on.

Somehow, I suspect the Gate Keeper of Heaven wouldn't condemn me to all that outer darkness stuff just because I didn't remember to wash up before dying.

 

[Avatar4321]

God exists. He's been here from the beginning.

Unfortunately, those who love religion (and trying to out purify those the don't even know), have muddied the waters.

God didn't want religion, He wanted us all to achieve Spirituality.

I'm not a human looking for a religious experience, I'm a Spiritual Being having a human one.

God doesn't want religion? He doesn't want us to take care of the widow and fatherless? He doesn't want us to keep ourselves unspotted from the world?

The scriptures are pretty clear that Our Father in Heaven is a God of Order. When Moses, following God, lead the people out of Egypt, the Lord commanded them to organize the Israelites. He gave them laws to live by. He provided ordinances to comply with.

During Christ's ministry at the Meridian of Time, He did likewise. He called 12 Apostles and Seventys from His disciples. He authorized them. He established a Church built on the Foundation of Apostles and Prophets with Him as the Chief Cornerstone.

Yes, The Lord is establishes a relationship with us by covenant. But His covenants are not only between us as individuals and with Him. He also establishes covenants governing our relationships with one another.

For example, the Marriage covenant He established is between a Husband and a Wife. The Covenant He made with Moses and the Israelites was a national covenant. That We would be His people and He would be our God.

The religion/spiritual dilemna is a false dichotemy created by people who want to make themselves seem better than others and yet who fail to understand the scriptures.

 

[Avatar4321]

I don't necessarily believe in the Christian God, but if he exists I imagine all of the man-made horrors and atrocities are a necessary side effect of free will being granted to a species.

To end pain and suffering instantly, we would need to have that free will taken from us, and fall under the control of god as a sort of "robot" species (that behaves, doesn't nuke each other, etc).

However, I'd rather take the free will route, because it forces us to actively learn and grow from our mistakes.

Eventually (as an optimist), I believe we will learn to end pain and suffering by our own accord. That is TRUE enlightenment, and probably the reason we're given free will in the first place.

.

I prefer the free will route as well, not that we have much choice. I don't think we can possibly do away with our free agency.

And that is the purpose of free will. So we can learn to do good and forsake evil. God does not ask for people forced to do His will. He wants us to come to Him willingly. We willingly offer up to him a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And He blesses us more.

Choose this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[hobelim]

I am going to hazard the guess that the gates of heaven are not protected by an Iris scanner.

I bet you are right but if one shows up at a black tie event wearing filthy rags and reeking of cheep wine and vomit, the doorman has no choice but to throw them out into the darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Ok. Before I get to the Pearly Gates, I WILL wash up and put on my best suit.

Too bad I won't have a body to wash or a body to put a suit on.

Somehow, I suspect the Gate Keeper of Heaven wouldn't condemn me to all that outer darkness stuff just because I didn't remember to wash up before dying.

It seems to me that a person who thinks that the subject of being clean or unclean or being appropriately attired or wearing filthy rags or entering the kingdom of heaven or being denied is about something other than an inner condition is already in all that outer darkness stuff.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

I bet you are right but if one shows up at a black tie event wearing filthy rags and reeking of cheep wine and vomit, the doorman has no choice but to throw them out into the darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Ok. Before I get to the Pearly Gates, I WILL wash up and put on my best suit.

Too bad I won't have a body to wash or a body to put a suit on.

Somehow, I suspect the Gate Keeper of Heaven wouldn't condemn me to all that outer darkness stuff just because I didn't remember to wash up before dying.

It seems to me that a person who thinks that the subject of being clean or unclean or being appropriately attired or wearing filthy rags or entering the kingdom of heaven or being denied is about something other than an inner condition is already in all that outer darkness stuff.

It seems to ME that a person who thinks that one has a body at all at the Pearly Gates is already beyond the ability to engage in reason.

 

[ABikerSailor]

I am going to hazard the guess that the gates of heaven are not protected by an Iris scanner.

I bet you are right but if one shows up at a black tie event wearing filthy rags and reeking of cheep wine and vomit, the doorman has no choice but to throw them out into the darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Really? Would the doorman deny entrance to Jesus if He was coming back from a wedding?

Remember......................it was Jesus that turned the water into wine. Why would the doorman (and most know him as St. Peter) turn Jesus back into the darkness if He'd stayed at the party a bit too long?

 

[ABikerSailor]

God exists. He's been here from the beginning.

Unfortunately, those who love religion (and trying to out purify those the don't even know), have muddied the waters.

God didn't want religion, He wanted us all to achieve Spirituality.

I'm not a human looking for a religious experience, I'm a Spiritual Being having a human one.

God doesn't want religion? He doesn't want us to take care of the widow and fatherless? He doesn't want us to keep ourselves unspotted from the world?

The scriptures are pretty clear that Our Father in Heaven is a God of Order. When Moses, following God, lead the people out of Egypt, the Lord commanded them to organize the Israelites. He gave them laws to live by. He provided ordinances to comply with.

During Christ's ministry at the Meridian of Time, He did likewise. He called 12 Apostles and Seventys from His disciples. He authorized them. He established a Church built on the Foundation of Apostles and Prophets with Him as the Chief Cornerstone.

Yes, The Lord is establishes a relationship with us by covenant. But His covenants are not only between us as individuals and with Him. He also establishes covenants governing our relationships with one another.

For example, the Marriage covenant He established is between a Husband and a Wife. The Covenant He made with Moses and the Israelites was a national covenant. That We would be His people and He would be our God.

The religion/spiritual dilemna is a false dichotemy created by people who want to make themselves seem better than others and yet who fail to understand the scriptures.

God never said He wanted religion. He just gave us a few rules to keep the human race alive.

And................you're right.................God DID give the Israelites laws to live by, and He also gave them rules to follow. But, that's only because He loves us and wants us to live and be happy. Telling you not to eat poison, or telling you to do the things that keep you alive isn't starting a religion, it's telling you the rules of the world so that you can live.

As far as "authorizing" people to carry on the ministry of Christ? Really? Most of the books about Him were written anywhere from 150 to 300 years after His death and resurrection. I'm guessing that some were trying to get a bit of fame for themselves by writing what they did.

Wanna provide Bible references to what you consider a "covenant", or is that something you pulled out of your ass to sound like you know what you're talking about?

 

[hobelim]

Ok. Before I get to the Pearly Gates, I WILL wash up and put on my best suit.

Too bad I won't have a body to wash or a body to put a suit on.

Somehow, I suspect the Gate Keeper of Heaven wouldn't condemn me to all that outer darkness stuff just because I didn't remember to wash up before dying.

It seems to me that a person who thinks that the subject of being clean or unclean or being appropriately attired or wearing filthy rags or entering the kingdom of heaven or being denied is about something other than an inner condition is already in all that outer darkness stuff.

It seems to ME that a person who thinks that one has a body at all at the Pearly Gates is already beyond the ability to engage in reason.

Let me put it this way. The sanctuary of God, his dwelling place, is a realm of conscious existence defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior defined in the law. To enter this kingdom of God, heaven, the world above, the realm of eternal life, one must conform to the laws demands.


When Jesus called on his people to repent or they would never enter the kingdom of heaven he was talking about them repenting and entering the kingdom of heaven while they still had a body. If a person hears and acts on the teaching of Jesus about how to correctly understand and apply the law according to his revelation about the deeper hidden meaning behind the words and subjects they will attain the highest aim in life, comprehension and communion with God, which is eternal life. If not and they instead hear what Jesus taught and discount it they cannot enter that realm while they have a body and become subject to the judgment according to their words and deeds when their body dies.

Some people are accepted and some people are banned from the kingdom of heaven
whether they have a body or not.

The world above vs the world below is not about any dimensional difference of some mystical places of existence it is simply about the conscious world of higher intelligences vs the conscious world of low lifes which all are in existence simultaneously on earth.

I will tell you something. Try to hear.

There is a gulf which separates the two worlds that is as great as the gulf which separates the living from the dead.

Rise to life and enter the kingdom of God while you have a body to ascend in. both literally and figuratively, no one can repent from the grave.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

It seems to me that a person who thinks that the subject of being clean or unclean or being appropriately attired or wearing filthy rags or entering the kingdom of heaven or being denied is about something other than an inner condition is already in all that outer darkness stuff.

It seems to ME that a person who thinks that one has a body at all at the Pearly Gates is already beyond the ability to engage in reason.

Let me put it this way. The sanctuary of God, his dwelling place, is a realm of conscious existence defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior defined in the law. To enter this kingdom of God, heaven, the world above, the realm of eternal life, one must conform to the laws demands.


When Jesus called on his people to repent or they would never enter the kingdom of heaven he was talking about them repenting and entering the kingdom of heaven while they still had a body. If a person hears and acts on the teaching of Jesus about how to correctly understand and apply the law according to his revelation about the deeper hidden meaning behind the words and subjects they will attain the highest aim in life, comprehension and communion with God, which is eternal life. If not and they instead hear what Jesus taught and discount it they cannot enter that realm while they have a body and become subject to the judgment according to their words and deeds when their body dies.

Some people are accepted and some people are banned from the kingdom of heaven
whether they have a body or not.

The world above vs the world below is not about any dimensional difference of some mystical places of existence it is simply about the conscious world of higher intelligences vs the conscious world of low lifes which all are in existence simultaneously on earth.

I will tell you something. Try to hear.

There is a gulf which separates the two worlds that is as great as the gulf which separates the living from the dead.

Rise to life and enter the kingdom of God while you have a body to ascend in. both literally and figuratively, no one can repent from the grave.

Your question presupposes your conclusion.

If Jesus is the Divine Son of God Himself, and as such, if Jesus Himself is God, then whatever He called upon people to do would be "law." Failure to comply with that law would presumably have consequences, as you suggest.

But, what if Jesus was NOT Divine? What if, no matter how brilliant and caring and intelligent His words may have been, they were not the words of God or the Son of God?

Then the consequences of failing to heed his commands would not necessarily entail any eternal retribution or punishment.

Put all that aside and tell me, without relying on the words and teachings of Jesus, in what way does it make ANY sense to believe that the Divine Creator of EVERYTHING that is is somehow a Being Who would even ask for (much less need or require) our praise or prayers?

What kind of God would punish a soul with torture for all eternity for not being able to recognize the very things which He, in His wisdom, made obscure to us?

I could never believe in such a patently insane Creator.

 

[Chuckt]

It seems to ME that a person who thinks that one has a body at all at the Pearly Gates is already beyond the ability to engage in reason.

Let me put it this way. The sanctuary of God, his dwelling place, is a realm of conscious existence defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior defined in the law. To enter this kingdom of God, heaven, the world above, the realm of eternal life, one must conform to the laws demands.


When Jesus called on his people to repent or they would never enter the kingdom of heaven he was talking about them repenting and entering the kingdom of heaven while they still had a body. If a person hears and acts on the teaching of Jesus about how to correctly understand and apply the law according to his revelation about the deeper hidden meaning behind the words and subjects they will attain the highest aim in life, comprehension and communion with God, which is eternal life. If not and they instead hear what Jesus taught and discount it they cannot enter that realm while they have a body and become subject to the judgment according to their words and deeds when their body dies.

Some people are accepted and some people are banned from the kingdom of heaven
whether they have a body or not.

The world above vs the world below is not about any dimensional difference of some mystical places of existence it is simply about the conscious world of higher intelligences vs the conscious world of low lifes which all are in existence simultaneously on earth.

I will tell you something. Try to hear.

There is a gulf which separates the two worlds that is as great as the gulf which separates the living from the dead.

Rise to life and enter the kingdom of God while you have a body to ascend in. both literally and figuratively, no one can repent from the grave.

Your question presupposes your conclusion.

If Jesus is the Divine Son of God Himself, and as such, if Jesus Himself is God, then whatever He called upon people to do would be "law." Failure to comply with that law would presumably have consequences, as you suggest.

But, what if Jesus was NOT Divine? What if, no matter how brilliant and caring and intelligent His words may have been, they were not the words of God or the Son of God?

Then the consequences of failing to heed his commands would not necessarily entail any eternal retribution or punishment.

Put all that aside and tell me, without relying on the words and teachings of Jesus, in what way does it make ANY sense to believe that the Divine Creator of EVERYTHING that is is somehow a Being Who would even ask for (much less need or require) our praise or prayers?

What kind of God would punish a soul with torture for all eternity for not being able to recognize the very things which He, in His wisdom, made obscure to us?

I could never believe in such a patently insane Creator.

It isn't so much based on us recognizing whether He exists or not because Adam was the prototype and Adam failed by falling short of what God wants so therefore the copies of Adam can't do any better which makes it widely known.

They ate from the tree of Knowledge and they inherited this thing called sin. If you have a computer with a virus, sometimes those things are nasty so you either fix it or you end up throwing it out. Sometimes viruses end up lingering around in the system even when you fix it.

Suppose if God was compassionate...Would God be just if He didn't judge sin? Would you like heaven if it was worse than earth? Would you like heaven if it was filled with hell? Would that be compassionate?

Chuck

 

[hobelim]

It seems to ME that a person who thinks that one has a body at all at the Pearly Gates is already beyond the ability to engage in reason.

Let me put it this way. The sanctuary of God, his dwelling place, is a realm of conscious existence defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior defined in the law. To enter this kingdom of God, heaven, the world above, the realm of eternal life, one must conform to the laws demands.


When Jesus called on his people to repent or they would never enter the kingdom of heaven he was talking about them repenting and entering the kingdom of heaven while they still had a body. If a person hears and acts on the teaching of Jesus about how to correctly understand and apply the law according to his revelation about the deeper hidden meaning behind the words and subjects they will attain the highest aim in life, comprehension and communion with God, which is eternal life. If not and they instead hear what Jesus taught and discount it they cannot enter that realm while they have a body and become subject to the judgment according to their words and deeds when their body dies.

Some people are accepted and some people are banned from the kingdom of heaven
whether they have a body or not.

The world above vs the world below is not about any dimensional difference of some mystical places of existence it is simply about the conscious world of higher intelligences vs the conscious world of low lifes which all are in existence simultaneously on earth.

I will tell you something. Try to hear.

There is a gulf which separates the two worlds that is as great as the gulf which separates the living from the dead.

Rise to life and enter the kingdom of God while you have a body to ascend in. both literally and figuratively, no one can repent from the grave.

Your question presupposes your conclusion.

If Jesus is the Divine Son of God Himself, and as such, if Jesus Himself is God, then whatever He called upon people to do would be "law." Failure to comply with that law would presumably have consequences, as you suggest.

But, what if Jesus was NOT Divine? What if, no matter how brilliant and caring and intelligent His words may have been, they were not the words of God or the Son of God?

Then the consequences of failing to heed his commands would not necessarily entail any eternal retribution or punishment.

Put all that aside and tell me, without relying on the words and teachings of Jesus, in what way does it make ANY sense to believe that the Divine Creator of EVERYTHING that is is somehow a Being Who would even ask for (much less need or require) our praise or prayers?

What kind of God would punish a soul with torture for all eternity for not being able to recognize the very things which He, in His wisdom, made obscure to us?

I could never believe in such a patently insane Creator.

I said nothing about any God who requires praise or prayer or who would torture any living thing for eternity. I do not believe in and would not worship or serve any such God either.

Without relying on scripture or any words of Jesus I will tell you that it is law that if you fill your head with irrational nonsense you will become confused and say and do stupid things that injure yourself and the people you love.

If you fail to head the warning to stand guard over the purity of your own mind and what you allow or don't allow into your own head with at least as much discretion as anyone applies to what they eat or don't eat, any consequent suffering is self inflicted.

The worst the eternal flames of hell are is exactly the place you are already in, knowing good and evil without understanding any of it.

God has made the way to life clear. Do it and you will have life. If you fail to do it you have no one to blame for any consequent confusion related suffering but yourself.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

Let me put it this way. The sanctuary of God, his dwelling place, is a realm of conscious existence defined by the boundaries of thought and behavior defined in the law. To enter this kingdom of God, heaven, the world above, the realm of eternal life, one must conform to the laws demands.


When Jesus called on his people to repent or they would never enter the kingdom of heaven he was talking about them repenting and entering the kingdom of heaven while they still had a body. If a person hears and acts on the teaching of Jesus about how to correctly understand and apply the law according to his revelation about the deeper hidden meaning behind the words and subjects they will attain the highest aim in life, comprehension and communion with God, which is eternal life. If not and they instead hear what Jesus taught and discount it they cannot enter that realm while they have a body and become subject to the judgment according to their words and deeds when their body dies.

Some people are accepted and some people are banned from the kingdom of heaven
whether they have a body or not.

The world above vs the world below is not about any dimensional difference of some mystical places of existence it is simply about the conscious world of higher intelligences vs the conscious world of low lifes which all are in existence simultaneously on earth.

I will tell you something. Try to hear.

There is a gulf which separates the two worlds that is as great as the gulf which separates the living from the dead.

Rise to life and enter the kingdom of God while you have a body to ascend in. both literally and figuratively, no one can repent from the grave.

Your question presupposes your conclusion.

If Jesus is the Divine Son of God Himself, and as such, if Jesus Himself is God, then whatever He called upon people to do would be "law." Failure to comply with that law would presumably have consequences, as you suggest.

But, what if Jesus was NOT Divine? What if, no matter how brilliant and caring and intelligent His words may have been, they were not the words of God or the Son of God?

Then the consequences of failing to heed his commands would not necessarily entail any eternal retribution or punishment.

Put all that aside and tell me, without relying on the words and teachings of Jesus, in what way does it make ANY sense to believe that the Divine Creator of EVERYTHING that is is somehow a Being Who would even ask for (much less need or require) our praise or prayers?

What kind of God would punish a soul with torture for all eternity for not being able to recognize the very things which He, in His wisdom, made obscure to us?

I could never believe in such a patently insane Creator.

I said nothing about any God who requires praise or prayer or who would torture any living thing for eternity. I do not believe in and would not worship or serve any such God either.

Without relying on scripture or any words of Jesus I will tell you that it is law that if you fill your head with irrational nonsense you will become confused and say and do stupid things that injure yourself and the people you love.

If you fail to head the warning to stand guard over the purity of your own mind and what you allow or don't allow into your own head with at least as much discretion as anyone applies to what they eat or don't eat, any consequent suffering is self inflicted.

The worst the eternal flames of hell are is exactly the place you are already in, knowing good and evil without understanding any of it.

God has made the way to life clear. Do it and you will have life. If you fail to do it you have no one to blame for any consequent confusion related suffering but yourself.

But again, you ARE relying on the words of Jesus. For you are calling what He said "law."

No God worthy of worshiping ever created a torture chamber. There is no hell.