CDZ What are you worth?

[RodISHI]

What we can't afford in a society in the corrupt to rule and take advantage of the less fortunate.

But that is exactly what you get in a Socialistic society and what a Constitution based on individual liberty mitigates through free enterprise and free markets.

But we have not just had free enterprise and individual liberties. My story is not unique when it comes to large corporate's taking out a private entity through illegal measures with rook and crook. I would have never considered looking into all the aspects of how corrupt our whole system has gotten had that not did what they did to us and many others.

The issues at hand now are how do we get that liberty of freedom of choice and free enterprise back in play without tearing down everything and everyone in between.

 

[320 Years of History]

What we can't afford in a society in the corrupt to rule and take advantage of the less fortunate.

But that is exactly what you get in a Socialistic society and what a Constitution based on individual liberty mitigates through free enterprise and free markets.

But we have not just had free enterprise and individual liberties. My story is not unique when it comes to large corporate's taking out a private entity through illegal measures with rook and crook. I would have never considered looking into all the aspects of how corrupt our whole system has gotten had that not did what they did to us and many others.

The issues at hand now are how do we get that liberty of freedom of choice and free enterprise back in play without tearing down everything and everyone in between.

Red:
??? Corporations, though publicly traded, are private entities. What exactly are you trying to say?

• The Private Sector -- The private sector is usually composed of organizations that are privately owned and not part of the government. These usually includes corporations (both profit and non-profit) and partnerships.
  
• The Public Sector -- The public sector is usually composed of organizations that are owned and operated by the government.
  
• 
  

Pink:
Illegal by what measure? Did the organization involved get prosecuted/sued and found guilty/liable?

Blue:
The question there is "why not?". Why did something deleterious to your and others' existence need to happen before you felt obliged to examine the nature and extent of corruption that may or may not exist in "our whole system?"

Off Topic:
Out of curiosity:

• What forms of corruption did you examine? Corporate? Governmental? Individual? Political? Academic? Legal?
• What resources did you consult in performing your research?
  • Scholarly and rigorously, comprehensively, and objectively produced research and analysis...stuff similar in nature (not necessarily in content or conclusions) and rigor to the following?

• • The Concept of Systematic Corruption in American Political and Economic History
  • Political Corruption in America: A Search for Definitions and a Theory
  • THE CAUSES OF CORRUPTION: A CROSS-NATIONAL STUDY
  • The Nature of Corruption: An Interdisciplinary Perspective
    
  • All For All: Equality, Corruption and Social Trust
    
  • Business as Usual: The Acceptance and Perpetuation of Corruption in Organizations
    
  • Corporate scandals: It's time for reflection in business schools
    
  • Corporations, Corruption, and Complexity: Campaign Finance after Citizens United
    
  • Measuring Illegal and Legal Corruption in American States: Some Results from the Corruption in America Survey
    
  • The Crucial "Corrupt Intent" Element in Federal Bribery Laws
• Editorial/anecdotal content that is a good place to begin one's inquiry, but because the author may very well have an "axe to grind" and it's not often clear whether they do or don't must yet be validated before accepting it as conclusive in any broad sense?
  
  
  • “Yes, We’re Corrupt”: A List of Politicians Admitting That Money Controls Politics
    
  • CORRUPTION, FRAUD AND JUDICIAL MISCONDUCT
    
  • Just How Corrupt is America? You May Be Surprised to Find Out
    
  • ECONOMIC POWER AND THE CORRUPTION OF THE AMERICAN POLITICAL SYSTEM
    
  • Corruption: Greed, Culture, and the State
    
  • 
    
    
    
  • Corruption and the Global Financial Crisis
    
  • When is corruption not corrupt? When the establishment says it isn’t
• Was your investigation contextually objective or did you conduct your research in such a was as to confirm that the corruption you think exists does exist?
  
  • Does Corporate Money Lead to Political Corruption?
    "In discussing corruption, we need to move beyond simplistic claims either that corruption is functional because government is dysfunctional or that corruption in a Western concept used to belittle or to undermine cherished cultural traditions. Both statements are true in some contexts and false in others."
    
  • The Two Faces of Bribery: International Corruption Pathways Meet Conflicting Legislative Regimes

I'm not asking because I care what you found. There's no question that corruption exists; surely you weren't looking merely to find out whether it does or not. I'm interested to learn about the approach you used to conduct your inquiry and analysis. I'm also curious to learn how you arrived at the conclusion that the behavior you observed was in fact a manifestation of corruption. Lastly, given that you seemingly were adversely affected by some company's actions, was it even possible for you to have been convinced that whatever the firm did that irked you and others was not in fact corrupt, but rather that it was just the company playing by the rules of the game that are in place?

 

[Boss]

But we have not just had free enterprise and individual liberties. My story is not unique when it comes to large corporate's taking out a private entity through illegal measures with rook and crook. I would have never considered looking into all the aspects of how corrupt our whole system has gotten had that not did what they did to us and many others.

The issues at hand now are how do we get that liberty of freedom of choice and free enterprise back in play without tearing down everything and everyone in between.

Well, I won't blow smoke up your ass and tell your our system is perfect. However, you are raising an issue with exploitation of our system by crony capitalists (corporatists) who seek to use the power of government to levy an advantage over their competition or eliminate them entirely. There are two ways to deal with this... 1) Make government less powerful and 2) Stop electing people beholden to crony capitalists. We have to go back to instilling the values of free enterprise, private property rights, individual liberty and free markets. We will never accomplish that by making government bigger or allowing them more control of our lives.

 

[320 Years of History]

Well, I won't blow smoke up your ass and tell your our system is perfect. However, you are raising an issue with exploitation of our system by crony capitalists (corporatists) who seek to use the power of government to levy an advantage over their competition or eliminate them entirely. There are two ways to deal with this... 1) Make government less powerful and 2) Stop electing people beholden to crony capitalists.

What about the way that's called "create adults who have higher ethical standards and practices?"

 

[320 Years of History]

exploitation of our system by crony capitalists (corporatists) who seek to use the power of government to levy an advantage over their competition or eliminate them entirely.

??? Say what? Do you outright reject capitalism? What is the point of owning a profit-making enterprise if one won't, within the confines of the law, apply the full extent of one's ability and resources to be as profitable as one can?

 

[Boss]

??? Say what? Do you outright reject capitalism? What is the point of owning a profit-making enterprise if one won't, within the confines of the law, apply the full extent of one's ability and resources to be as profitable as one can?

Capitalism can take many forms. I reject crony capitalism (corporatism) because it's NOT free market capitalism. In fact, it is more of a threat to free market capitalism than socialism.

Of course the principles of free market capitalism is to be as profitable as one can but it's in the confines of market demand and material supply to form a price-driven natural equilibrium. Corporatism uses the power of government to drive profits through manipulation and regulation. It takes the true free market out of the hands of consumers and puts it in the hands of power brokers and politicians.

Socialists will point to this and say... Ahaa... Capitalism FAILS! You need centralized government authority overseeing everything to make it work! But that simply exacerbates the problem and breeds corruption. The ANSWER is to return to true free market capitalism. We know that works, there is no question about it. Individual liberty, free enterprise, constitutional rights, private property and free markets have been responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires and lifting more out of poverty than anything man has ever devised.

 

[presonorek]

??? Say what? Do you outright reject capitalism? What is the point of owning a profit-making enterprise if one won't, within the confines of the law, apply the full extent of one's ability and resources to be as profitable as one can?

Capitalism can take many forms. I reject crony capitalism (corporatism) because it's NOT free market capitalism. In fact, it is more of a threat to free market capitalism than socialism.

Of course the principles of free market capitalism is to be as profitable as one can but it's in the confines of market demand and material supply to form a price-driven natural equilibrium. Corporatism uses the power of government to drive profits through manipulation and regulation. It takes the true free market out of the hands of consumers and puts it in the hands of power brokers and politicians.

Socialists will point to this and say... Ahaa... Capitalism FAILS! You need centralized government authority overseeing everything to make it work! But that simply exacerbates the problem and breeds corruption. The ANSWER is to return to true free market capitalism. We know that works, there is no question about it. Individual liberty, free enterprise, constitutional rights, private property and free markets have been responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires and lifting more out of poverty than anything man has ever devised.

In 2010 H & R Block, Jackson Hewitt and all the other major tax preparation chains had legislation passed that eliminated a large portion of their competition. Things like that are fairly common. Is that kinda what you mean by Crony Capitalism?

 

[320 Years of History]

??? Say what? Do you outright reject capitalism? What is the point of owning a profit-making enterprise if one won't, within the confines of the law, apply the full extent of one's ability and resources to be as profitable as one can?

Capitalism can take many forms. I reject crony capitalism (corporatism) because it's NOT free market capitalism. In fact, it is more of a threat to free market capitalism than socialism.

Of course the principles of free market capitalism is to be as profitable as one can but it's in the confines of market demand and material supply to form a price-driven natural equilibrium. Corporatism uses the power of government to drive profits through manipulation and regulation. It takes the true free market out of the hands of consumers and puts it in the hands of power brokers and politicians.

Socialists will point to this and say... Ahaa... Capitalism FAILS! You need centralized government authority overseeing everything to make it work! But that simply exacerbates the problem and breeds corruption. The ANSWER is to return to true free market capitalism. We know that works, there is no question about it. Individual liberty, free enterprise, constitutional rights, private property and free markets have been responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires and lifting more out of poverty than anything man has ever devised.

I don't either, but to the extent we are talking about the economic environment in the U.S., lamenting the existence of crony capitalism is mostly much ado about nothing.

​

Can we figure out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Yes, and it's informative to some extent to do so, but upon doing so, there's not much need to do something about however many can or cannot.

 

[320 Years of History]

??? Say what? Do you outright reject capitalism? What is the point of owning a profit-making enterprise if one won't, within the confines of the law, apply the full extent of one's ability and resources to be as profitable as one can?

Capitalism can take many forms. I reject crony capitalism (corporatism) because it's NOT free market capitalism. In fact, it is more of a threat to free market capitalism than socialism.

Of course the principles of free market capitalism is to be as profitable as one can but it's in the confines of market demand and material supply to form a price-driven natural equilibrium. Corporatism uses the power of government to drive profits through manipulation and regulation. It takes the true free market out of the hands of consumers and puts it in the hands of power brokers and politicians.

Socialists will point to this and say... Ahaa... Capitalism FAILS! You need centralized government authority overseeing everything to make it work! But that simply exacerbates the problem and breeds corruption. The ANSWER is to return to true free market capitalism. We know that works, there is no question about it. Individual liberty, free enterprise, constitutional rights, private property and free markets have been responsible for creating more millionaires and billionaires and lifting more out of poverty than anything man has ever devised.

In 2010 H & R Block, Jackson Hewitt and all the other major tax preparation chains had legislation passed that eliminated a large portion of their competition. Things like that are fairly common. Is that kinda what you mean by Crony Capitalism?

Red:
I don't know how Boss will answer that question, but I would hope his answer is "no." If it turns out that the companies involved actually bribed the legislators and got convicted for/pled guilty to doing so, yes, I'd say it's crony-capitalism.

 

[Boss]

What about the way that's called "create adults who have higher ethical standards and practices?"

Not sure I really understand your question but I think we have two main problems:

1) The nature of modern politics.... No matter what you are, right, left, center, democrat, republican, libertarian... you go to the polls each election and vote for someone who is promising to "do something for you!" [as opposed to doing what is constitutional and best for the country as it should be.] This has resulted in a never-ending "norm" of perpetually encroaching government. It translates to reams and reams of new laws, new mandates, new regulations, all designed to take from one group and give to another.

2) Dissemination of immorality... We stopped instilling in children a respect for country and God, banned it from the schools and now the public square. We've embraced every immoral thing under the sun and made it cool and hip... politically correct. We've raised generations of miscreants who have no respect for others and no respect for themselves. Men of true integrity and honor are becoming an endangered species.

How can we restore things? I don't know that we can at this point.

 

[Boss]

In 2010 H & R Block, Jackson Hewitt and all the other major tax preparation chains had legislation passed that eliminated a large portion of their competition. Things like that are fairly common. Is that kinda what you mean by Crony Capitalism?

It's exactly what I mean.

 

[320 Years of History]

Socialists will point to this and say... Ahaa... Capitalism FAILS!

??? What are you talking about? Socialism and capitalism are not incompatible. Command economics and capitalism are incompatible.

• Capitalism -- Not a political system; purely an economic system. The "invisible hands" of supply and demand determine what gets produced/demanded and what does not, how much it cost to demand that which gets produced.
• Socialism -- Part economic model/system; part political system. Some levers of production are government owned; some are not. The functioning of the "invisible hands" of supply and demand are controlled to some extent by government regulation/legislation.
• Command economy -- Part economic model/system; part political. All levers of production are government owned. What gets produced and thereby available to be demanded is defined by the government.

 

[Boss]

??? What are you talking about?

You have to read my entire post and not parse out single sentences to attack. That will help you understand what I am saying better. Socialism is the effective control of capitalism and it's not free market if it's parameters are controlled. Socialism is merely a stepping stone to Communism.

 

[Divine Wind]

why not make it everyone gets $100 per day no matter what they do, or how hard or long they work. Then ask what they would do

I'd become a liberal and sit on my ass all day playing video games. Where's my money?

Re the OP; mine is a non-standard job so it's difficult to figure, but no more than 1-2 hours/day.

 

[Boss]

I don't either, but to the extent we are talking about the economic environment in the U.S., lamenting the existence of crony capitalism is mostly much ado about nothing.

All due respect to your IMF graphics, you are now trying to compare apples and oranges. We are NOT other countries, we are the United States of America. We have a unique and exceptional system that has proven more successful than any other in the world. It is a combination of things... a constitution protecting inalienable rights endowed by a Creator... individual liberty and free enterprise... private property ownership... free market principles.

Pointing to countries with differing systems and saying... "But, they are worse!" Isn't addressing our problems, it's excusing them. I don't really care how many crony corporatists Hong Kong has or how the IMF determines who is or isn't a crony corporatist. I'm only interested in OUR system, what WE'RE doing. We cannot control the rest of the world or what they do.

 

[320 Years of History]

What about the way that's called "create adults who have higher ethical standards and practices?"

Not sure I really understand your question but I think we have two main problems:

1) The nature of modern politics.... No matter what you are, right, left, center, democrat, republican, libertarian... you go to the polls each election and vote for someone who is promising to "do something for you!" [as opposed to doing what is constitutional and best for the country as it should be.] This has resulted in a never-ending "norm" of perpetually encroaching government. It translates to reams and reams of new laws, new mandates, new regulations, all designed to take from one group and give to another.

2) Dissemination of immorality... We stopped instilling in children a respect for country and God, banned it from the schools and now the public square. We've embraced every immoral thing under the sun and made it cool and hip... politically correct. We've raised generations of miscreants who have no respect for others and no respect for themselves. Men of true integrity and honor are becoming an endangered species.

How can we restore things? I don't know that we can at this point.

Okay...I'll try to explain.

You wrote:

[Y]ou are raising an issue with exploitation of our system by crony capitalists (corporatists) who seek to use the power of government to levy an advantage over their competition or eliminate them entirely. There are two ways to deal with this... 1) Make government less powerful and 2) Stop electing people beholden to crony capitalists.​

I'm saying that a third way to overcome the so-called "exploitation our system" is for us to as a society to embrace and accept nothing less than a higher set of personal ethical mores. Since it's adults who run society, we need to instill those standards so that by the time one becomes an adult, it's anathema to one to violate them. The more well inculcated among individuals be the mores, the lower the quantity of folks who act in violation of them.


An example from my life:

Many years back, I was asked by a client to lead a project they wanted to undertake. The client was willing to pay me/my firm several million dollars to do so. I looked at what they wanted done and knew that I could put together a team to do it, and I knew it's be a great "feather in my cap" that'd have allowed to vastly exceed my revenue goals for that year. I also knew that even upon successful completion of the project, the goals the client hoped to achieve would not materialize. I told the client I would not bind myself and my firm to doing the project they wanted done. I gave them my recommendation of what they should do to obtain the goals they sought.

Could I have taken the money and done the project and made a mint? Yes. But that wasn't the point. I just knew better than do that because it'd have been disingenuous for me to do so when I knew all that would result is my getting richer and the client having wasted their money given their expectations. Did I still manage to exceed my revenue goals that year? Yes. Did my personal and professional reputation and remuneration suffer for my decision? No. Might it have had I taken on the project? It sure could have the instant the client realised they wouldn't get what they wanted from the project and that I knew as much going in. Indeed, I and my firm could easily have been sued. That would have caused me and the firm a huge set of problems that lasted well past the settlement of a lawsuit.​

Now that was not a government + business situation, but it was a "big money involved" ethical choice I had to make, and not a particularly painless one to make. My superiors at the time needed a lot of convincing before they were okay with my refusing the offer to take on the project, a project that was essentially free money.

So what I'm saying is that we need to create more people who are committed to doing the right thing than they are to doing the thing that makes the most money "now."

 

[320 Years of History]

??? What are you talking about?

You have to read my entire post and not parse out single sentences to attack. That will help you understand what I am saying better. Socialism is the effective control of capitalism and it's not free market if it's parameters are controlled. Socialism is merely a stepping stone to Communism.

Okay...I accept that. It didn't seem as though that was what you were saying before. Perhaps I read too quickly?


As goes the "stepping stone," well yes, but so far no major country having size and scope similar to the U.S. has gotten off that "stone."

 

[320 Years of History]

I don't either, but to the extent we are talking about the economic environment in the U.S., lamenting the existence of crony capitalism is mostly much ado about nothing.

All due respect to your IMF graphics, you are now trying to compare apples and oranges. We are NOT other countries, we are the United States of America. We have a unique and exceptional system that has proven more successful than any other in the world. It is a combination of things... a constitution protecting inalienable rights endowed by a Creator... individual liberty and free enterprise... private property ownership... free market principles.

Pointing to countries with differing systems and saying... "But, they are worse!" Isn't addressing our problems, it's excusing them. I don't really care how many crony corporatists Hong Kong has or how the IMF determines who is or isn't a crony corporatist. I'm only interested in OUR system, what WE'RE doing. We cannot control the rest of the world or what they do.

Fine, compare our crony-capitalism today with the crony-capitalism in the U.S. during the gilded age. The point is the same: crony capitalism in the U.S. is nearly non-existent. More to the specific point you make above regarding the comparative nature of the graphic I shared, read the corresponding article. You'll see that while the internationally comparative data points are shown, the measure of what is going on in the U.S. is still represented and discussed.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying we have "bigger fish to fry." Are there sectors where crony capitalism is more prevalent than others? Yes, the sugar industry is one in particular. That said, were we not burdened with a host of other problems, I'd say, sure, let's deal with crony capitalism. As it stands now, I see the solution to that problem as being the sorts of election reform Bernie Sanders advocated, and I think those reforms may well resolve more than just crony capitalism.

 

[Boss]

Fine, compare our crony-capitalism today with the crony-capitalism in the U.S. during the gilded age. The point is the same: crony capitalism in the U.S. is nearly non-existent. More to the specific point you make above regarding the comparative nature of the graphic I shared, read the corresponding article. You'll see that while the internationally comparative data points are shown, the measure of what is going on in the U.S. is still represented and discussed.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying we have "bigger fish to fry." Are there sectors where crony capitalism is more prevalent than others? Yes, the sugar industry is one in particular. That said, were we not burdened with a host of other problems, I'd say, sure, let's deal with crony capitalism. As it stands now, I see the solution to that problem as being the sorts of election reform Bernie Sanders advocated, and I think those reforms may well resolve more than just crony capitalism.

Well crony corporatism is certainly not non-existent. And it's like mercury in your drinking water, a little of it is more than you want. And no... Bernie is a Socialist who has Socialist ideas for dealing with Capitalism... that is not helpful to free market capitalism. Note how many socialist governments are listed on your IMF graph.

THE solution.. and really, the ONLY solution... is returning to free market principles and individual liberty and property rights. We have to get the government out of the way and allow free market principles to do their thing.

There are very few things the free market cannot handle better than central government. These things are outlined in Article I Section 8 of the Constitution. The framers knew everything else was better handled by individuals in the private sector through free markets.

Another aspect of this problem is the confusion about corporatism. Some people mistakenly believe that all corporations are corporatists but that's not true. Many are free market capitalists. Corporatists are simply the ones who seek to use influence over government to levy an advantage over their competitors.

 

[320 Years of History]

And it's like mercury in your drinking water, a little of it is more than you want.

Frankly, I think it's more like salt than mercury, but too much salt in my food is still not something I want, but it's something I can deal with. I say "salt" because I know better than to think I can completely eliminate its existence and it's going to take a hell of a lot of "over salting" before it's deadly. (Strictly speaking, it's more a matter of circumstances that makes salt deadly.)