What about the precedent that the zionist ideology in Palestine sets for the rest of the world?

[Hollie]

If they can work towards a political solution, maybe directly with the UN then they are moving beyond victimhood.

The UN Security Council will on Monday consider a Palestine-drafted resolution over the recent US decision to recognize the city as the Israeli capital.
UNSC to Consider Palestine-Drafted Resolution Monday on US Decision on Jerusalem

And nothing will happen.

Why should something other than nothing happen?

 

[abi]

Not all them. Many Arabs are full Israeli citizens. Some sit in the Knesset.

another zionist talking point. They are second class citizens on their own land and the uncle Toms in the Knesset have no real power; it's all for show.

Many of those who LEFT made TONS of money selling their land stakes to new Israelis..

Very few and tons of money my butt.

 

[Coyote]

Movements like Zionism are HOW displaced nations organize and lobby for deals. There's a lot of work involved. And it takes leadership and PROCESS. The Kurds are advertising on American TV.. They HAVE leadership and organization. What are the Palestinians doing to ORGANIZE for nationhood?? Other than sucking down UN/Intl funding and pooping it away? When was the LAST Pali election or "central meeting"??

That is a good way to put it - excellant!

It is a juvenile way of looking at it. No land was 'available' and men from one continent giving land to other men from there, the land of others from another continent completely is ludicrous and thanks to Nuremberg, against international law.

Land ownership in the Ottoman Empire was a lot more complex then you seem to realize. It is often not clear who owned what after the dissolution of the empire. In addition, you have nomadic people's like the Beduoin who have ancestral territory but not "ownership". Now that is a group that has really suffered and been disenfranchised.

Much of the land, particularly in the early years was purchased: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia As far as I know that is not illegal. This is not "men from one continent giving land to other men from there".

Where land was not purchased - where it was confiscated - then that is wrong.

The zionists used 3000 years of Jewish, not zionist, suffering for their land grab.

What exactly do you mean by that?

I would love for even one zionist to go read some actual history, compare it to what they have been taught, and then to check back to this forum after at least a few weeks.

I think everyone should read some history.

 

[Coyote]

Now, since we came from Asia, across the Bering Straight, would this ideology not give Americans the right to demolish homes in Asia today, demolish entire cities even? Can we go on to murder and expel those living there today? If any remain, can we imprison them behind walls? Can we use our military to enforce a new government upon them based on our laws, in our cities built where theirs just stood?

Well, first of all, you are conflating a number of peoples. When you say "Americans" do you mean the First Nations peoples? Or the European immigrants? Or the more recent immigrants from, well, pretty much everywhere?

When you say "Asia" do you mean Russia, Mongolia, China, Japan or somewhere else? Its a pretty big place.

AND you seem to be missing an essential point -- it is the retention and continuity of culture which is the basis for defining a people. If you could find a group of ancient, First Nations peoples of the Americas who had distinct and notable cultural similarities to, say, an ancient pre-Japanese culture on the islands of Japan, you could make a case for those Nations to have self-determination in their ancestral territory. I don't think you will find such a thing, though.

Jews were not a first nations people from that land. People were there when they arrived,

No way, I have been clear that we are talking about zionism and people that came from a completely different continent. Read writings from before the zionists came, from Muslims, Christians and Jews who all lived in peace for the most part for centuries. They tell stories of dinners at each others homes and praise the others for their kindness and generosity. Their children played together.

I don't think you can cleanly excise Zionism from the mix and label it as the ideology that destroyed Eden. You had competing forces at work, and the European immigration did not substantially impact those who already lived there. You also had immigration of Arabs from surrounding countries who came for the jobs. Why is one bad and the other not? It also ignores the larger picture of what was happening in the region and around the world with the collapse of empires, the ending of foreign control, and the subsequent rise of nationist movements all over. The Pan Arab Nationism vs the Jewish Nationalism. I'm curious why no one has a problem with Arab nationalism resulting in states while the same goal for Jewish Nationalists is condemned. I think we need to move past this narrative.

For instance -- RIGHT NOW -- the Homeland market is crowded with potential buyers. You have the Kurds -- who by ALL MEASURES are entitled to a bit of separation between themselves and that monstrous Shia/Sunni roving apocalypse that they have suffered thru.

You have the Rohingah being expelled from Myanmar in a controlled ethnic cleansing. Who MIGHT assimilate into a suitable Muslim country somewhere in the region, but are DISTINCT enough to consider themselves a nation. You also have several tiny Christian sects that need sanctuary from persecution in Africa, that could join together in a "homeland deal"..

And probably 3 or 4 other DISTINCT "nations" of people who are tired of renting in hostile neighborhoods. The only way a "homeland realtor" can help ANY OF THESE is to understand how to make "land swaps" with enough neighbors to come with a large enough piece of CONNECTED land to be the lot that the homeland gets created on.

Movements like Zionism are HOW displaced nations organize and lobby for deals. There's a lot of work involved. And it takes leadership and PROCESS. The Kurds are advertising on American TV.. They HAVE leadership and organization. What are the Palestinians doing to ORGANIZE for nationhood?? Other than sucking down UN/Intl funding and pooping it away? When was the LAST Pali election or "central meeting"??

That is a good way to put it - excellant!

It is a juvenile way of looking at it. No land was 'available' and men from one continent giving land to other men from there, the land of others from another continent completely is ludicrous and thanks to Nuremberg, against international law.

Not true. One of the tenets of the mandate was non annexation of territory. Palestine was not Britain's to give away.

FACT! It is yet another international crime to move a civilian population on to occupied lands. I am shocked that international law allows these occupiers civilian status.

You can only be a victim for so long.

The zionists used 3000 years of Jewish, not zionist, suffering for their land grab.

Part of the Palestinian's problem is their lack of political organization. They have got to show political unity and maturity in order to call for their rights. There isn't even one spokesman so how can you negotiate? But I think things are changing. Because they are calling for non-violent protests. If they can work towards a political solution, maybe directly with the UN then they are moving beyond victimhood.

A zionist blaming the victim.

Not all them. Many Arabs are full Israeli citizens. Some sit in the Knesset. There were decisions to be made. Like stay or fight or flee. And MANY chose to stay. And they live very well in Israel... Better than any group of Jews in an Arab country..

They chose to live as a second class on their own land and BS, Jews lived in peace on most Arab lands until zionism. Like when Jewish terrorists were bombing Jewish targets in Iraq in the 50s.

I would love for even one zionist to go read some actual history, compare it to what they have been taught, and then to check back to this forum after at least a few weeks.

“They chose to live as a second class on their own land and BS, Jews lived in peace on most Arab lands until zionism”

I’m hoping you can explain the system of dhimmitude that was in place during Ottoman rule.

They did not choose that.

 

[Hollie]

Now, since we came from Asia, across the Bering Straight, would this ideology not give Americans the right to demolish homes in Asia today, demolish entire cities even? Can we go on to murder and expel those living there today? If any remain, can we imprison them behind walls? Can we use our military to enforce a new government upon them based on our laws, in our cities built where theirs just stood?

Well, first of all, you are conflating a number of peoples. When you say "Americans" do you mean the First Nations peoples? Or the European immigrants? Or the more recent immigrants from, well, pretty much everywhere?

When you say "Asia" do you mean Russia, Mongolia, China, Japan or somewhere else? Its a pretty big place.

AND you seem to be missing an essential point -- it is the retention and continuity of culture which is the basis for defining a people. If you could find a group of ancient, First Nations peoples of the Americas who had distinct and notable cultural similarities to, say, an ancient pre-Japanese culture on the islands of Japan, you could make a case for those Nations to have self-determination in their ancestral territory. I don't think you will find such a thing, though.

Jews were not a first nations people from that land. People were there when they arrived,

I don't think you can cleanly excise Zionism from the mix and label it as the ideology that destroyed Eden. You had competing forces at work, and the European immigration did not substantially impact those who already lived there. You also had immigration of Arabs from surrounding countries who came for the jobs. Why is one bad and the other not? It also ignores the larger picture of what was happening in the region and around the world with the collapse of empires, the ending of foreign control, and the subsequent rise of nationist movements all over. The Pan Arab Nationism vs the Jewish Nationalism. I'm curious why no one has a problem with Arab nationalism resulting in states while the same goal for Jewish Nationalists is condemned. I think we need to move past this narrative.

For instance -- RIGHT NOW -- the Homeland market is crowded with potential buyers. You have the Kurds -- who by ALL MEASURES are entitled to a bit of separation between themselves and that monstrous Shia/Sunni roving apocalypse that they have suffered thru.

You have the Rohingah being expelled from Myanmar in a controlled ethnic cleansing. Who MIGHT assimilate into a suitable Muslim country somewhere in the region, but are DISTINCT enough to consider themselves a nation. You also have several tiny Christian sects that need sanctuary from persecution in Africa, that could join together in a "homeland deal"..

And probably 3 or 4 other DISTINCT "nations" of people who are tired of renting in hostile neighborhoods. The only way a "homeland realtor" can help ANY OF THESE is to understand how to make "land swaps" with enough neighbors to come with a large enough piece of CONNECTED land to be the lot that the homeland gets created on.

Movements like Zionism are HOW displaced nations organize and lobby for deals. There's a lot of work involved. And it takes leadership and PROCESS. The Kurds are advertising on American TV.. They HAVE leadership and organization. What are the Palestinians doing to ORGANIZE for nationhood?? Other than sucking down UN/Intl funding and pooping it away? When was the LAST Pali election or "central meeting"??

That is a good way to put it - excellant!

It is a juvenile way of looking at it. No land was 'available' and men from one continent giving land to other men from there, the land of others from another continent completely is ludicrous and thanks to Nuremberg, against international law.

Not true. One of the tenets of the mandate was non annexation of territory. Palestine was not Britain's to give away.

FACT! It is yet another international crime to move a civilian population on to occupied lands. I am shocked that international law allows these occupiers civilian status.

You can only be a victim for so long.

The zionists used 3000 years of Jewish, not zionist, suffering for their land grab.

Part of the Palestinian's problem is their lack of political organization. They have got to show political unity and maturity in order to call for their rights. There isn't even one spokesman so how can you negotiate? But I think things are changing. Because they are calling for non-violent protests. If they can work towards a political solution, maybe directly with the UN then they are moving beyond victimhood.

A zionist blaming the victim.

Not all them. Many Arabs are full Israeli citizens. Some sit in the Knesset. There were decisions to be made. Like stay or fight or flee. And MANY chose to stay. And they live very well in Israel... Better than any group of Jews in an Arab country..

They chose to live as a second class on their own land and BS, Jews lived in peace on most Arab lands until zionism. Like when Jewish terrorists were bombing Jewish targets in Iraq in the 50s.

I would love for even one zionist to go read some actual history, compare it to what they have been taught, and then to check back to this forum after at least a few weeks.

“They chose to live as a second class on their own land and BS, Jews lived in peace on most Arab lands until zionism”

I’m hoping you can explain the system of dhimmitude that was in place during Ottoman rule.

They did not choose that.

Correct. I was “quoting” a comment posted by Louie.

 

[Shusha]

[
Jews were not a first nations people from that land. People were there when they arrived,

I believe you are incorrect on that point. Archaeology demonstrates that the existing tribes of the area were all of near identical culture and the origin of the Jewish people was to unite them. There is no evidence of an alternate, invading, competing culture.

However, that is immaterial to the argument as, by your own claims for the Arab Palestinian people, there is no requirement that a people be FIRST in order to have a claim for rights to self-determination. As you have said, repeatedly, the only requirement is that they have been there for centuries. Yep. Checkmark that for the Jewish people as well.

 

[abi]

Much of the land, particularly in the early years was purchased: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia As far as I know that is not illegal. This is not "men from one continent giving land to other men from there".

Where land was not purchased - where it was confiscated - then that is wrong.

Show me a map that illustrates what land was legally purchased, please.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Beyond the obvious, The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

 

[Coyote]

Not all them. Many Arabs are full Israeli citizens. Some sit in the Knesset.

another zionist talking point. They are second class citizens on their own land and the uncle Toms in the Knesset have no real power; it's all for show.

Many of those who LEFT made TONS of money selling their land stakes to new Israelis..

Very few and tons of money my butt.

There is anti-Arab discrimination and inequality of opportunities and rights, and those should be fought for the issues they are not as a tool in some widespread anti-Zionist propaganda campaign. Israel is not monolithic in it's views. Jews cover the spectrum in how they feel about Palestinians and their rights like any other country. Unlike their Arab neighbors, who expelled their Jewish citizens and lack any form of representative government.

 

[Coyote]

[
Jews were not a first nations people from that land. People were there when they arrived,

I believe you are incorrect on that point. Archaeology demonstrates that the existing tribes of the area were all of near identical culture and the origin of the Jewish people was to unite them. There is no evidence of an alternate, invading, competing culture.

However, that is immaterial to the argument as, by your own claims for the Arab Palestinian people, there is no requirement that a people be FIRST in order to have a claim for rights to self-determination. As you have said, repeatedly, the only requirement is that they have been there for centuries. Yep. Checkmark that for the Jewish people as well.

This.

 

[abi]

There is anti-Arab discrimination and inequality of opportunities and rights, and those should be fought for the issues they are not as a tool in some widespread anti-Zionist propaganda campaign.

Propaganda campaign or san people fighting for basic human rights?

Israel is not monolithic in it's views. Jews cover the spectrum in how they feel about Palestinians and their rights like any other country. Unlike their Arab neighbors, who expelled their Jewish citizens and lack any form of representative government.

But, the zionist leaders are hateful and are racist at their core as one can see by the society they created. And any Arab expulsions of Jews were a direct result of zionism too, certainly the majority.

 

[abi]

This.

No, not that. There were a few Jews living in peace with all the other Arabs, then the zionists came with a military and changed everything.

 

[Coyote]

Much of the land, particularly in the early years was purchased: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia As far as I know that is not illegal. This is not "men from one continent giving land to other men from there".

Where land was not purchased - where it was confiscated - then that is wrong.

Show me a map that illustrates what land was legally purchased, please.

No. I provided a link, that is sufficient. I have never come across a map.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Beyond the obvious, The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.[/QUOTE]

How do you define "zionists"?

 

[flacaltenn]

Much of the land, particularly in the early years was purchased: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia As far as I know that is not illegal. This is not "men from one continent giving land to other men from there".

Where land was not purchased - where it was confiscated - then that is wrong.

Show me a map that illustrates what land was legally purchased, please.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Beyond the obvious, The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

There is a large collection of Israel Land Deeds at Stanford University. I used to have library privileges there and attended a special collection showing at their museum for the 150th year celebration of Tel Aviv. They were on the NET for a couple years and taken off to be replaced with other other highlighted collections. I posted a dozen of them here at one time. ALL were the originial deeds for the early Tel Aviv settlement. ALL -- from ex-pat Arab landowners..

Some -- to be honest, go back to buys under the Ottoman Empire. Where occasionally a "dutch or spanish" broker was used to avoid scrutiny by the Ottomans.

 

[abi]

No. I provided a link, that is sufficient. I have never come across a map.

Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia. It ca be edited by anyone.

Note the 1946 map showing the land both sides agree had been purchased.

How do you define "zionists"?

Read the thread in the link. If you are still confused, ask there or begin another thread, it is likely a more difficult discussion than you might imagine.

Much of the land, particularly in the early years was purchased: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia As far as I know that is not illegal. This is not "men from one continent giving land to other men from there".

Where land was not purchased - where it was confiscated - then that is wrong.

Show me a map that illustrates what land was legally purchased, please.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Beyond the obvious, The zionists do NOT speak for the Jewish people and antizionism is NOT antisemitism.

There is a large collection of Israel Land Deeds at Stanford University. I used to have library privileges there and attended a special collection showing at their museum for the 150th year celebration of Tel Aviv. They were on the NET for a couple years and taken off to be replaced with other other highlighted collections. I posted a dozen of them here at one time. ALL were the originial deeds for the early Tel Aviv settlement. ALL -- from ex-pat Arab landowners..

Some -- to be honest, go back to buys under the Ottoman Empire. Where occasionally a "dutch or spanish" broker was used to avoid scrutiny by the Ottomans.

Claims of these documents are well and good, but they were for no more than a minute percentage of Palestine.

 

[rylah]

This.

No, not that. There were a few Jews living in peace with all the other Arabs, then the zionists came with a military and changed everything.

Actually before any Zionist ever shot a bullet there were Arab pogroms and expulsions.

 

[Indeependent]

If they can work towards a political solution, maybe directly with the UN then they are moving beyond victimhood.

The UN Security Council will on Monday consider a Palestine-drafted resolution over the recent US decision to recognize the city as the Israeli capital.
UNSC to Consider Palestine-Drafted Resolution Monday on US Decision on Jerusalem

And nothing will happen.

Oh, a Resolution.
Otherwise known as a meaningless Arab, African shopping list for millions of dead Jews.

 

[abi]

Actually before any Zionist ever shot a bullet there were Arab pogroms and expulsions.

There was zionist terrorism from the first zionists.

 

[Indeependent]

I'm not trying to be funny, but seriously now. If I understand the zionist position, it boils down to might is right - or might makes right. But, there is also the idea that if a people were somewhere in ancient times, that they still retain rights to that land. I am constantly reminded about a peoples' right to self-determination in their ancestral homeland. Am I okay so far?

Good.

Now, since we came from Asia, across the Bering Straight, would this ideology not give Americans the right to demolish homes in Asia today, demolish entire cities even? Can we go on to murder and expel those living there today? If any remain, can we imprison them behind walls? Can we use our military to enforce a new government upon them based on our laws, in our cities built where theirs just stood?

I think it is important to see what a dangerous precedent this sets for people the world over.

I just realized why this Thread is a complete sham.
Babbly is constantly posting the fact that every nation on earth has not used the State of Israel as their model for attaining land.
So the precedent that Babbly fears never happened.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Movements like Zionism are HOW displaced nations organize and lobby for deals. There's a lot of work involved. And it takes leadership and PROCESS. The Kurds are advertising on American TV.. They HAVE leadership and organization. What are the Palestinians doing to ORGANIZE for nationhood?? Other than sucking down UN/Intl funding and pooping it away? When was the LAST Pali election or "central meeting"??

That is a good way to put it - excellant!

It is a juvenile way of looking at it. No land was 'available' and men from one continent giving land to other men from there, the land of others from another continent completely is ludicrous and thanks to Nuremberg, against international law.

Land ownership in the Ottoman Empire was a lot more complex then you seem to realize. It is often not clear who owned what after the dissolution of the empire. In addition, you have nomadic people's like the Beduoin who have ancestral territory but not "ownership". Now that is a group that has really suffered and been disenfranchised.

Much of the land, particularly in the early years was purchased: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia As far as I know that is not illegal. This is not "men from one continent giving land to other men from there".

Where land was not purchased - where it was confiscated - then that is wrong.

The zionists used 3000 years of Jewish, not zionist, suffering for their land grab.

What exactly do you mean by that?

I would love for even one zionist to go read some actual history, compare it to what they have been taught, and then to check back to this forum after at least a few weeks.

I think everyone should read some history.

The land purchased was only about 7%. The rest of it was stolen.

BTW, land purchases do not remove that land from the country. It was still Palestinian land.

 

[Indeependent]

Movements like Zionism are HOW displaced nations organize and lobby for deals. There's a lot of work involved. And it takes leadership and PROCESS. The Kurds are advertising on American TV.. They HAVE leadership and organization. What are the Palestinians doing to ORGANIZE for nationhood?? Other than sucking down UN/Intl funding and pooping it away? When was the LAST Pali election or "central meeting"??

That is a good way to put it - excellant!

It is a juvenile way of looking at it. No land was 'available' and men from one continent giving land to other men from there, the land of others from another continent completely is ludicrous and thanks to Nuremberg, against international law.

Land ownership in the Ottoman Empire was a lot more complex then you seem to realize. It is often not clear who owned what after the dissolution of the empire. In addition, you have nomadic people's like the Beduoin who have ancestral territory but not "ownership". Now that is a group that has really suffered and been disenfranchised.

Much of the land, particularly in the early years was purchased: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia As far as I know that is not illegal. This is not "men from one continent giving land to other men from there".

Where land was not purchased - where it was confiscated - then that is wrong.

The zionists used 3000 years of Jewish, not zionist, suffering for their land grab.

What exactly do you mean by that?

I would love for even one zionist to go read some actual history, compare it to what they have been taught, and then to check back to this forum after at least a few weeks.

I think everyone should read some history.

The land purchased was only about 7%. The rest of it was stolen.

BTW, land purchases do not remove that land from the country. It was still Palestinian land.

If you want the land so bad, go get it.
But first name me as a beneficiary in your Life Insurance Policy.
Certainly the swamp known as the UN will accomplish nothing without US funding.