We're Lowering Your Wages

[Bern80]

You are just another whining voice out there in the comos claiming you are making a profit from anothers labor and whining about how the government screws you and takes too much of your money already.

Obviously you are lying or unwilling to lay it out on the table to show why as a small business you would be screwed by insuring that any employee makes a living wage.

Again basic math moron. If his costs exceed his revunes he can not continue to operate the business, which puts his employees that your imbecile heart is bleeding over not only with less money but without a job at all. Not to mention your fucked up notion about who is responsibility for providing for your own damn well being.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You are just another whining voice out there in the comos claiming you are making a profit from anothers labor and whining about how the government screws you and takes too much of your money already.

Obviously you are lying or unwilling to lay it out on the table to show why as a small business you would be screwed by insuring that any employee makes a living wage.

You forget that the employee has the option of not working there if the wage is not suitable, and going to look for other work. If they are not able to find better work, then it can be assumed that something is better than nothing. Let us also not forget that there are many institutions which one can attend to "better themselves."

I noticed you kept bringing up slavery before, but an employer does not force their employees to work for them. They have the choice to leave.

 

[RodISHI]

You most certainly did. You proposseed all business pay peolpe a living wage. Stop being lazy and respond the posts. I have explained why several times now why that will lead to greater unemployment. If you can refute that in anyway do so. I assumed nothing of you.

It really is already clear in the last few posts made to skull boy.

If a business has employees that means they are making some kind of a profit from the labor of those employees.

If any business cannot make a profit then they need to get out of business.

By promoting slave labor it only leads to more poverty which in turns leads to more people living on welfare, crime, addictions, depression and other degradations that all societies must deal with.

By enabling people to make a living wage you give them a hand up not a handout.

There are many out there tht are living proof of that like it or not.

 

[Bern80]

It really is already clear in the last few posts made to skull boy.

If a business has employees that means they are making some kind of a profit from the labor of those employees.

If any business cannot make a profit then they need to get out of business.

By promoting slave labor it only leads to more poverty which in turns leads to more people living on welfare, crime, addictions, depression and other degradations that all societies must deal with.

By enabling people to make a living wage you give them a hand up not a handout.

There are many out there tht are living proof of that like it or not.

By do so you absolve people of the responsibility of bettering themslves. You teach them that it is someone elses responsibility to take care of them. Explain that one to me. Why do you believe it is someone elses obligation to provide for you? Why is someone else more responsibile for you than you are for yourself?

Again you dodge the question. We surely can agree that greater unemployment is not what we want here. I have explained why your postion will yield exactley. Now again I ask you to explain to me why I am wrong.

Yes your position is quite clear. What you have failed to do is support it in anyway. You haven't addressed the consequences you have simply assumed that yeah everyone will have more mone and everything will be just peachey if all businesses just do what you think they should. Ther rest of us are a hair smarter than that.

 

[RodISHI]

You forget that the employee has the option of not working there if the wage is not suitable, and going to look for other work. If they are not able to find better work, then it can be assumed that something is better than nothing. Let us also not forget that there are many institutions which one can attend to "better themselves."

I noticed you kept bringing up slavery before, but an employer does not force their employees to work for them. They have the choice to leave.

I have not forgotten anything Kevin. This "something better than nothing" additude is exactly what has led to where the economy is today. That is that it is in the shitter.

To "better themselves', is that like a penal institution or a financial institution or what?

 

[Skull Pilot]

You are just another whining voice out there in the comos claiming you are making a profit from anothers labor and whining about how the government screws you and takes too much of your money already.

Obviously you are lying or unwilling to lay it out on the table to show why as a small business you would be screwed by insuring that any employee makes a living wage.

You show how much your assumptions hurt your argument.

ALL of my employees make more than minimum wage, some make 8 times minimum wage. So your assumption that I am whining about minimum wage is wrong. The market that exists for our business dictates what I have to offer to attract qualified professionals not some arbitrary government mandate.

The market for the skills of our support staff dictate what they get paid and what benefits we offer them. And all of them are free to find another employer that will pay them more and treat them better. And since we've only lost one employee in the last 2 years, and that because she got married and relocated, I'd say we are offering a very attractive option for our people. And FYI, my wife and I work longer and harder than our employees. We risked everything to start this business, our employees risked nothing, so yes, we should be able to realize the rewards for the risks we've taken.

The argument here is whether an assembly line monkey with a pneumatic wrench that spins nuts all day is worth 30 dollars an hour.

I say if the market supports that pay because the car companies are doing well and providing quality cars that the public wants to buy then yes the monkey is worth 30 an hour.

But if the market tell us that the business model of the car company is not supporting the pay and benefits of the monkeys. In fact those companies are running in the red and have been for years.

But now the government is asking, no the government is coercing us under threat of incarceration, to buy into failing businesses to support a business model and wage structure that the market is telling us is unsupportable.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I have not forgotten anything Kevin. This "something better than nothing" additude is exactly what has led to where the economy is today. That is that it is in the shitter.

To "better themselves', is that like a penal institution or a financial institution or what?

No. The Federal Reserve has led us where we are today. And it seems you have forgotten it since you're equating working for someone with slavery. They're free to try and find something better.

I meant college.

 

[RodISHI]

By do so you absolve people of the responsibility of bettering themslves. You teach them that it is someone elses responsibility to take care of them. Explain that one to me. Why do you believe it is someone elses obligation to provide for you? Why is someone else more responsibile for you than you are for yourself?

Again you dodge the question. We surely can agree that greater unemployment is not what we want here. I have explained why your postion will yield exactley. Now again I ask you to explain to me why I am wrong.

Yes your position is quite clear. What you have failed to do is support it in anyway. You haven't addressed the consequences you have simply assumed that yeah everyone will have more mone and everything will be just peachey if all businesses just do what you think they should. Ther rest of us are a hair smarter than that.

By enslaving the working class into a whole system that does not care if the people can work to be self reliant and make a living wage you create a situation that peole could give a hoot whether your company survives or not. You have have effectively deterred any so call self reliant "responsibility". Congratulations Bern you have effectively created a mindset that has left no hope for the average labor pool. You have now added your sweet little "luxury company" to the roles of the poor and down trodden's hit list for those that are willing to say "f..k you, if I cannot earn it I'll steal it." I would suppose you are one of those people who never goes to the slums. You probably avoid it at all cost.


Any man or woman should be able to make a living wage. If that is not good enough for you Bern it is just too bad.

 

[Ravi]

Please.

Payroll is the single biggest expense in my budget as it is with most small businesses.
Payroll taxes, unemployment taxes, state taxes, federal taxes, workers comp etc etc etc

It certainly seems to me that all those so called write offs cost a hell of a lot of money.

Why do you have federal taxes in your list when you've already covered them with payroll and umemployment? Also, workers comp is insurance, not a tax...though it is required so maybe that is why you classified it as such.

 

[Skull Pilot]

yeah you're right ISHI

Let's just mandate that ALL businesses pay ALL employees 50K, is that a good enough living wage for you or would you prefer 100K?

Business will thrive and economic growth will be unprecedented, we'll be the envy of the free world.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Why do you have federal taxes in your list when you've already covered them with payroll and umemployment? Also, workers comp is insurance, not a tax...though it is required so maybe that is why you classified it as such.

because I pay state and federal taxes on profits as well as payroll. And government mandated insurance is just as good as a tax is it not?

 

[RodISHI]

No. The Federal Reserve has led us where we are today. And it seems you have forgotten it since you're equating working for someone with slavery. They're free to try and find something better.

I meant college.

It is not just the federal reserve that led to this problem. It is the mindset and/or ignorance of the people and the leaders that have created these current problems.


So how does this poor person pay for this college you speak of?

That begs another question to be asked. Once this person goes to college and gets their indoctrination, do they have any rights to demand a better paying job?

 

[Skull Pilot]

It is not just the federal reserve that led to this problem. It is the mindset and/or ignorance of the people and the leaders that have created these current problems.


So how does this poor person pay for this college you speak of?

That begs another question to be asked. Once this person goes to college and gets their indoctrination, do they have any rights to demand a better paying job?

said poor person, gets a job, saves up enough for a course and enrolls, studies and passes.....repeat

or

said poor person goes to the library and educates himself for free.

 

[Bern80]

Any man or woman should be able to make a living wage. If that is not good enough for you Bern it is just too bad.

Again you're argument only works if your assumptions about how the business world works are accurate. And unfortunately they aren't. So first you need to prove your presumption that the bulk of the American workforce is being subjected to slave wages.

Again you believe you are doing these people with limited skill sets a favor by just handing them more money. In fact you are handicapping them even more as they have no incentive to improve themselves if the money you are simply handing them on no meritorious basis will suffice. Your paycheck from a company is in exchange for doing WORK for them, they owe nothing more beyond that. If that isn't good enough for you go somewhere else that pays better for your limited skill set. If no one will pay more for your skill set than improve yourself and attain some more skills. Sitting on your ass thinking it someone elses obligation to make up for your short comings is no way to help strengthen individuals and society.

AGAIN you did not answer the question. Why is it someone else job to provide for you rather than your own?

 

[RodISHI]

You show how much your assumptions hurt your argument.

ALL of my employees make more than minimum wage, some make 8 times minimum wage. So your assumption that I am whining about minimum wage is wrong. The market that exists for our business dictates what I have to offer to attract qualified professionals not some arbitrary government mandate.

The market for the skills of our support staff dictate what they get paid and what benefits we offer them. And all of them are free to find another employer that will pay them more and treat them better. And since we've only lost one employee in the last 2 years, and that because she got married and relocated, I'd say we are offering a very attractive option for our people. And FYI, my wife and I work longer and harder than our employees. We risked everything to start this business, our employees risked nothing, so yes, we should be able to realize the rewards for the risks we've taken.

The argument here is whether an assembly line monkey with a pneumatic wrench that spins nuts all day is worth 30 dollars an hour.

I say if the market supports that pay because the car companies are doing well and providing quality cars that the public wants to buy then yes the monkey is worth 30 an hour.

But if the market tell us that the business model of the car company is not supporting the pay and benefits of the monkeys. In fact those companies are running in the red and have been for years.

But now the government is asking, no the government is coercing us under threat of incarceration, to buy into failing businesses to support a business model and wage structure that the market is telling us is unsupportable.

My assumptions are no more than anyone elses here. I am talking the overall labor force not just a few machanics on an assembly line.

By calling the mechanics on these assembly lines "monkeys" you have already shown a great amount of disdain for any working class person out there.

Let us make this conversation by the words you have choosen.

What makes a person a "monkey"? You sound like a pencil pushing paper monkey.

 

[RodISHI]

said poor person, gets a job, saves up enough for a course and enrolls, studies and passes.....repeat

or

said poor person goes to the library and educates himself for free.

Really. Sounds good. Probably looks good on paper too.

 

[RodISHI]

yeah you're right ISHI

Let's just mandate that ALL businesses pay ALL employees 50K, is that a good enough living wage for you or would you prefer 100K?

Business will thrive and economic growth will be unprecedented, we'll be the envy of the free world.

Heck if the market will bear it why not. I'll round up twenty people and we'll be on your doorstep Manday morning.

 

[Skull Pilot]

My assumptions are no more than anyone elses here. I am talking the overall labor force not just a few machanics on an assembly line.

By calling the mechanics on these assembly lines "monkeys" you have already shown a great amount of disdain for any working class person out there.

Let us make this conversation by the words you have choosen.

What makes a person a "monkey"? You sound like a pencil pushing paper monkey.

oh excuse me for being insensitive but it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to spin a nut onto a bolt all day does it. In fact a monkey could do it.

and you are not hurting my feelings by calling me a monkey. In my working life i have been a roofing monkey, a delivery monkey, a night watchman monkey, a painting monkey etc.

The wage of the overall workforce is dictated by the particular markets for the products and services those workers provide.

All people are free to improve themselves and make themselves worth more to the market thereby raising their salary and that is their responsibility to themselves not mine.

There is a mandated minimum wage so what's your problem? It isn't high enough?


What should it be?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Heck if the market will bear it why not. I'll round up twenty people and we'll be on your doorstep Manday morning.

but since the market won't bear it, and not to mention that I wouldn't hire you because I don't like you, I'd just turn the hose on you and chase you away.

 

[RodISHI]

oh excuse me for being insensitive but it doesn't take a fucking rocket scientist to spin a nut onto a bolt all day does it. In fact a monkey could do it.

and you are not hurting my feelings by calling me a monkey. In my working life i have been a roofing monkey, a delivery monkey, a night watchman monkey, a painting monkey etc.

The wage of the overall workforce is dictated by the particular markets for the products and services those workers provide.

All people are free to improve themselves and make themselves worth more to the market thereby raising their salary and that is their responsibility to themselves not mine.

There is a mandated minimum wage so what's your problem? It isn't high enough?


What should it be?

$12.00 an hour would be a living wage. Corporate resturants, stores etc.... should never be able to split the hair and only pay worker $5.00 an hour or waitresses $2.30 an hour (Iowa waitresses).


BTW, Rod says, "You probably would not know the set tolerance of a rivet or it's grip length any more than you would know the grip length of your peter." "But a lot of those "monkeys" out there can quote these specs."