We're Lowering Your Wages

[RodISHI]

I seriously doubt you have considered it. DO consider the following: What happens when a companies operating costs increase?

They either pass along the cost or get out of business.

I don't wish for companies to pay less than minimum wage or treat their labor force as entirely expendable. It is in a companies best interest from a management standpoint to keep their employees happy. At the same time it would hurt them to be bending over backwards at an employees every demand.

The majority of investment corporations have been bending emloyees and others over for years now. My most recent experiences in the last few years have confirmed that. Slightly detailed below.

Now your just being dramatic. You really believe slave labor is what is going on with a majority of Americans? Does McDonalds pay well? No. But your eyes I guess they should be paying $50k a year to support a family right? How does that $15 McDonalds burger taste now?

No I am not being dramatic. You are being blinded for whatever reason it is that you have those blinders on.

It appears as though you must be a corporate lacky as you keep mentioning that "contract" you signed when you went to work. I had no idea these investment corporate group businesses did that until last year. Just so happens for one of the very few times in my life I went out and got what you could call a regular job. Due to the utter ignorance of this person that Petsmart had in control there setting up one of their new Petsmart hotel, I was chemically burn over eighty five percent of my body. These people were so nice they made me drive myself home to take a shower. It took me over forty five minutes to drive myself home. I was in agonizing pain and had a hell of a time driving myself home through the tears. I was so disoriented I missed the turns to get on the right roads towards home.

After I finally made it home and I ran for the shower. As I tried to wash these chemicals off in the shower my husband called the Petsmart manager that had hired me. She refused to tell him what the chemicals were. She just kept telling him that the chemicals were "water soluble" and really "no big deal".

He called her twice during that time I was in the shower (well over thirty minutes). I was still on fire. My skin was blistering everywhere these chemicals had been on me. After several tries to determine what these chemicals were through the employer Petsmart and me being like a fully burned, fully drowned rat my husband gave it up trying to get the information and he drove me to the closet emergency room. It took the doctor at the emergency room hours to try to figure out what to do to help me. Finally she determine to try putting my hands in a large bowl of milk. That helped somewhat and without the information of what the chemical composition was she could only treat me for burns and send me home with a prescription of a heavy pain killer and some burn cream.

My husband wrapped me in towels and I was soaked in milk for about two hours. When I could not stay awake any longer I went to bed. I awoke the next morning looking something like a pumpkin head. I was swollen everywhere to the extreme. My head felt like it was going to explode and my whole body felt like it had been hit by a frieght train. It was all the strength I could muster to sit in the lounge chair for a few minutes at a time. My husband called my employer once again to determine what the chemicals were because it was obvious I was poisoned by whatever it was.

The employer still refused to tell him what the heck this awful stuff was. She just kept saying, "It's no big deal it's water soluble". My husband called OSHA. This gal gave the OSHA guy the run around too. Me I went back to bed and I basically stayed mostly in bed for almost two weeks. My own doctor recommended trying to somehow clean this shit out of my system with juice and liquids and over the phone he precribed immediatly a antibiotic as he feared for my kidneys. It took several days to get the exact composition of the chemicals that had pretty much covered the majority of my body from the chemical spill at work.

It was about two weeks later my hair started falling out by the hand fulls. I also I got these big ugly boils all over. Not to mention I had a rash everywhere for months. It felt like the worst flu you can even imagine having. My knees would not even support me when I would try to stand up. The headache did not go away for months. My heart raced ninety miles and hour at times. The pain in my feet, legs, arms, hands and inside where my organs are was extreme. I threw up for months. I still have a sore throat all of the time and I choke very easily. I have a heck of a time walking any distance now (I run out of breath) and still have pain in my extremities. In a recent test I was informed the reading should have been a six and it was a one.

Petsmart's insurance company refused to provide decent care. Then when the Petsmart doctor released me to go to work Petsmart would not let me return to work unless I signed their employee contract. I never agreed to a contract before they hired me and then poisoned me. Plus they did not even pay the basic required workers comp. So obviously life was pretty awful last winter. My husband's pay at the Sears job he took so we could survive was not even minimum wage. We have lost the home here in Des Moines due to the inability to make timely payments.

I still feel like shit most of the time. One dr./expert said more than likely my esophagus was damaged and that is why my throat stays continually sore. I used to be able to make about two hundred plus per hour with artwork like I had done since 1981 every Christmas season painting artwork. That is not the case now.

It just so happens that Petsmart insurance company, Travelers/Saint Pauls is the same company that represented the manufacturing company that destroyed the wash-plant at my mining operation. That was a put up fiasco also.

Call it what you want. The truth is though corporate investment groups are a scourge to this nation. They run on other peoples money, they have no actual cash value. If I had the notion I could start a business or buy an existing business. It would just be a matter of being creative with paper. Then I could shoot all that paper info out into the cosmos and sell that paper to money marketers that are willing to put their money into my neat and cool new investment firm. Once that company grows large enough I could even get people to believing it is a good bonafide business that people can put their retirement funds into and feel really safe about it. I just will not tell them my ultimate goals or how I am going to treat the people that work for me in order to make a buck. Pay myslef multiple millions of dolars each year and have a board that will go along with me to make up rules that investors cannot make any of these major pay decisions. It is a bit more detailed than that but that is the basics of what transpires.

Heck if was a bank I could talk businesses into banking with me for the perks and then charge their $6.00 to $15.00 dollar an hour employees five bucks to cash their paycheck if they decline to bank with me. Once I have that business and their employees money in my bank too my networth just keeps getting better.


Now tell me again how I do not know how these corporate investment companies treat their employees.






I do not eat out very often never have so MC D can pay their employees more and charge more for their hamburgers..

I asked to address your presumption. Instead you went on as if this whole slave B.S. is the norm or even real. NO COMPANY OWES YOU THE FOOD ON YOUR PLATE. They owe what is the contract you signed. If you don't like why the fuck did you start working for them?

You are making some pretty heavy assumptions.

I have owned two companies in my life thus far. I have also personally made millions. I reinvested it. It is not a matter that I worked for someone else until last year. Building my companies I spent my own money and my own efforts to build each of those companies.

 

[RodISHI]

Personally i believe your singular admittedly horrible experience is distorting your perception of the way things really are.

Personally I believe people that are acting as ignorant as you appear to be belong in the unemployment line or worse. I thought so when I was twenty and now thirty years later and with a lot more experience to back it up I still feel the same way.

 

[Bern80]

They either pass along the cost or get out of business.

Both pretty negative things wouldn't you say. Yet you want to require businesses to increase pay to whatever amount it is that you believe is acceptable KNOWING full well that one of the two options above is the most likely outcome. If they go out of business obviously you didn't help those employees to much with your bleeding heart did you? If they pass on the cost to the consumer you just negated exactly what you were trying to achieve.

I imagine you are one like sealy that rails and rails against the Bush tax cuts, yet you don't see that what you want does the exact the same. What good is a pay raise if the cost of goods and services goes up right along with it?

No, you don't understand economics. If you did you would know that things can not go up and up forever. that is exactly why we are in the mess we're in now, we kept artifically inflating the cost of goods and services with ridiculous morgtgages and the like. And now that the market is finally trying to drop back to reality people like you are proposing that we just keep trying to prop things up except doing that is exactly why we are feeling such a sever crash now.

The majority of investment corporations have been bending emloyees and others over for years now. My most recent experiences in the last few years have confirmed that. Slightly detailed below.

Since when did the subject change to just investment corporations?

No I am not being dramatic. You are being blinded for whatever reason it is that you have those blinders on.

What blinds people to reality more. Highly emotional experiences or objectivity?

It appears as though you must be a corporate lacky as you keep mentioning that "contract" you signed when you went to work. I had no idea these investment corporate group businesses did that until last year. Just so happens for one of the very few times in my life I went out and got what you could call a regular job. Due to the utter ignorance of this person that Petsmart had in control there setting up one of their new Petsmart hotel, I was chemically burn over eighty five percent of my body. These people were so nice they made me drive myself home to take a shower. It took me over forty five minutes to drive myself home. I was in agonizing pain and had a hell of a time driving myself home through the tears. I was so disoriented I missed the turns to get on the right roads towards home.

I won't be so callous as to say I don't have sympathy for you. But again to pretend that's the way the whole business world is ridiculous. You have to know that. The vast majority of businesses treat their employees quite well and have been doing so for so long that quite frankly we take it for granted. The benefits offered to people with scarce skils is truly amazing. My cousin just got hired by a medical insureance company where she starts with 4 weeks of vacation upon hire. Companies pay quite while to find the peopel with teh skills they need. But the pay you asking companies to give people with skills that damn near everyone has is ridiculous. Do we really want I society that figures out they can get by just fine if they dont' push themselves past the point of being a burger flipper?

Basically what you're trying to convince me of is that because others didn't have the horrible experience that you did they are the ones who are blind to the way businesses operate towards employees. I am certainly not going to defend the actions of people that caused you such pain, at the same time it isn't right for you to sit their and pretend that the rest of the business world or even a majority of it, is as horrible to their employees as yours was to you. That is evidences by the fact that you and I have had greatly differing experiences with our employers. The people companies I have worked for so far have been nothing but fair and protective of their employees.

You shared your story now I'll share a short one of my own. I had cancer when I was four requiring a bone morrow transplant that went 90% right. From the transplant I contracted another disease called graft vs. host. The end result was essentially that I am scarred over 100% of my body, have no sweat glands, hair or nails to speak of and am significantly shorter than what I would be had I not gotten sick. Life is not fair, it's that simple. All i know is blaming people and sitting around and moping about it didn't get me anywhere. I grew up to revile the special treatment people gave me because of how I looked. that and my parenting are probably the main reasons that translates into my postion on the economy.

I now work for a compnay that was named a best place to work by Outside magazine. As we are a luxury industry we are obviously being hit by the economy as people are thinking a little more about buying new toys. We have had a small number of layoffs, a wage freeze, and looked at a myriad of ways to make ourselves more effiicient. I make $12/hr after being there a little over a year. I am single with no kids and saving what I can. Except people like you really want to fuck my company over by requiring them to pay me more not because my job is worth more, but because you think they owe me a better standard of living. What the fuck do you think that would do to our company now?

I have owned two companies in my life thus far. I have also personally made millions. I reinvested it. It is not a matter that I worked for someone else until last year. Building my companies I spent my own money and my own efforts to build each of those companies.

So if you were able to accomplish that, if you knew it was inherently your responsibilty to provide yourself a standard of living why are expecting so much less from everyone else? You owed your standard of living? Why now all of sudden do you find that so unreasonable for anyone else to do?

 

[RodISHI]

Both pretty negative things wouldn't you say. Yet you want to require businesses to increase pay to whatever amount it is that you believe is acceptable KNOWING full well that one of the two options above is the most likely outcome. If they go out of business obviously you didn't help those employees to much with your bleeding heart did you? If they pass on the cost to the consumer you just negated exactly what you were trying to achieve.

It is not a matter of a bleeding heart. It happens to be that if a company does not pay a living wage to it's employees it does not belong in business. No one should be subjected to making application for food stamps or welfare to aument their job because neglectful employers refuse to pay their employees a living wage. Employers who refuse to pay a living wage does nothing more than add to the welfare roles of this country.

I imagine you are one like sealy that rails and rails against the Bush tax cuts, yet you don't see that what you want does the exact the same. What good is a pay raise if the cost of goods and services goes up right along with it?

What good is a job if one cannot make enough to buy beans, pay the light bill and be able to pay to get to that worthless job?

No, you don't understand economics. If you did you would know that things can not go up and up forever. that is exactly why we are in the mess we're in now, we kept artifically inflating the cost of goods and services with ridiculous morgtgages and the like. And now that the market is finally trying to drop back to reality people like you are proposing that we just keep trying to prop things up except doing that is exactly why we are feeling such a sever crash now.

Who exactly do you thnk drove that market? If you will refer back to my post I said, bankers/insurance companies/real estate/credit card companies/lawyers. You cannot provide a stable economic base when the cards have been stack against any average worker or small business enterprise. You need to get a new deck to work with that has not been marked.

Since when did the subject change to just investment corporations?

I have not realized it changed. Who do you think owns these major corporations? It sure is not private enterprise.

What blinds people to reality more. Highly emotional experiences or objectivity?

Better yet ask what opens their eyes reality instead of some claimed objectivity? You are one of many who holds a number. When your number comes up and you are out of a job and you cannot pay your bills (credit card or otherwise) I would hate to see you back on some forum singing the blues about how you never thought it could happen to you. It's obvious you have no understanding and lack the compassion to even attempt to try and understand what is happening out here in la-la land.

I won't be so callous as to say I don't have sympathy for you. But again to pretend that's the way the whole business world is ridiculous. You have to know that. The vast majority of businesses treat their employees quite well and have been doing so for so long that quite frankly we take it for granted.

IF THE VAST MAJORITY OF COMPANIES TREATED THEIR EMPLOYEES SO WELL VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BE BITCHING ABOUT A LIVING WAGE.

Basically what you're trying to convince me of is that because others didn't have the horrible experience that you did they are the ones who are blind to the way businesses operate towards employees. I am certainly not going to defend the actions of people that caused you such pain, at the same time it isn't right for you to sit their and pretend that the rest of the business world or even a majority of it, is as horrible to their employees as yours was to you. That is evidences by the fact that you and I have had greatly differing experiences with our employers. The people companies I have worked for so far have been nothing but fair and protective of their employees.

That is nice for you but what about the millions of people who are not treated fairly? Or the ones who the banks have frauded out of the equity in their homes? Did everyone who put their 401k's or have their pensions tap get that fair and equal treatment too?

You shared your story now I'll share a short one of my own. I had cancer when I was four requiring a bone morrow transplant that went 90% right. From the transplant I contracted another disease called graft vs. host. The end result was essentially that I am scarred over 100% of my body, have no sweat glands, hair or nails to speak of and am significantly shorter than what I would be had I not gotten sick. Life is not fair, it's that simple. All i know is blaming people and sitting around and moping about it didn't get me anywhere. I grew up to revile the special treatment people gave me because of how I looked. that and my parenting are probably the main reasons that translates into my postion on the economy.

You do have a point everyone has circumstances. If your parents had not been able to insure you recieved treatment you may not be here to state your position. the fact is though you are and so are my children and in the next few years my grandchildren may have their own children to watch after. So with that I see everyone needs to get a grip on what has been transpiring as the freedoms of choice are being stripped while people make less and less each year.

I now work for a compnay that was named a best place to work by Outside magazine. As we are a luxury industry we are obviously being hit by the economy as people are thinking a little more about buying new toys. We have had a small number of layoffs, a wage freeze, and looked at a myriad of ways to make ourselves more effiicient. I make $12/hr after being there a little over a year. I am single with no kids and saving what I can. Except people like you really want to fuck my company over by requiring them to pay me more not because my job is worth more, but because you think they owe me a better standard of living. What the fuck do you think that would do to our company now?

Apparently you are saying I make $12.00 an hour and I am happy so fuck the rest of you. See the guy/gal that works at the insurance company that makes $18.00 to $30.00 an hour says the same thing. Yet they add in their I do my part I let a person down the street clean my garage for $10.00 an hour. The banker/wall street person makes millions so the insurance company worker is just a peon to them too. This country has been built on the backs of it's labor pool. By refusing to take care of that working pool the country is slitting it's own throat.

So if you were able to accomplish that, if you knew it was inherently your responsibilty to provide yourself a standard of living why are expecting so much less from everyone else?

I never paid myself as much I paid my employees starting out. My cash benefits came at the end of the year when the profits were counted. insuring my employees could survive always came first. Even if that meant pulling my own cash out of my pocket to help them. Did that more than a few times. A newly hired couple needed a car in order to get to work. when theirs broke down I just happened to have cash from an artwork job in my pocket. That cash paid for their new used car so they could get to work.

If I filled a temporary position that an employee would be doing I then recieved that paycheck that would have gone to an employee.

You owed your standard of living?

Our personal standard of living sucked while we built the company. We ate a lot of beans and bought our clothes at thrift stores. That was a personal choice to put the money made back into build that business. It was not force on me by slave standards that a majority of employers have towards their employees.

Why now all of sudden do you find that so unreasonable for anyone else to do?

There is no change all of the sudden I fought for employees rights back then just as much if not more than I do now. When we could not afford to pay a decent wage we worked a lot of hours ourselves. hundred hour weeks were not out of the norm.

You do a lot of imagining Bern. Unless your employer is a fairly large corporate entity i would think that they would want more people to do better. Unless of course they cater to only that one percent of the elite.

I do not think we have anymore to discuss. you can't see beyond your nose.

 

[Bern80]

It is not a matter of a bleeding heart. It happens to be that if a company does not pay a living wage to it's employees it does not belong in business. No one should be subjected to making application for food stamps or welfare to aument their job because neglectful employers refuse to pay their employees a living wage. Employers who refuse to pay a living wage does nothing more than add to the welfare roles of this countr


What good is a job if one cannot make enough to buy beans, pay the light bill and be able to pay to get to that worthless job?

Your question is irrelevant because that is not the duty of business. It isn't their duty to provide your standard of living. IT IS YOUR FUCKING DUTY TO PROVIDE YOUR STANDARD. Your proposal will bread dependance and apathy. It will not make this country stronger, it will make it weaker because people will learn if all they need to do is flip burgers to get by then that is all they will do.

Who exactly do you thnk drove that market? If you will refer back to my post I said, bankers/insurance companies/real estate/credit card companies/lawyers. You cannot provide a stable economic base when the cards have been stack against any average worker or small business enterprise. You need to get a new deck to work with that has not been marked.

Yes I know in your world everyone is to blame but yourself. But it takes two to tango. Nobody shoved those attractive mortgages down anybody's throat. People who coudn't afford them were stupid and took them. This gets down to the fundamental of the thinking of people like you. It's always someone elses responsibility to take care of you. It's government's job to make sure people that don't want to educate themselves dont' get taken advantage of. it's businesss job to make sure you have a liveable wage absolving yourself of doing it yourself. Behavior is learned and the behavior you taught your very employee when you bought them a car is that the best course of action is to sit on your ass because bleeding hearts like yourself think it's honeslty in their best interest if you save them.

Better yet ask what opens their eyes reality instead of some claimed objectivity? You are one of many who holds a number. When your number comes up and you are out of a job and you cannot pay your bills (credit card or otherwise) I would hate to see you back on some forum singing the blues about how you never thought it could happen to you. It's obvious you have no understanding and lack the compassion to even attempt to try and understand what is happening out here in la-la land.

You won't. I've already taken welfare once in my life. Unlike you I don't play the fucking victim. I don't have this notion that I am entitled to remain oblivious to business conditions and be obtusely unaware of whether or not my job is in jeopardy. Do you not get the less you hold yourself accountable for, the less you will actually do to accomplish those things and the weaker the person you will become. That is the type of culture you are breading (quite literally it sounds like).

IF THE VAST MAJORITY OF COMPANIES TREATED THEIR EMPLOYEES SO WELL VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BE BITCHING ABOUT A LIVING WAGE.

Very few are bitching about a living a wage. Anyone that has any moderatley marketable skills certainly isn't. They have jobs and good ones, with excellent benefits. The people that are pissing and moaning are the burger flippers at McDonalds and people like you who have absolved yourself of any ownership in the position you're in, who are willing to put in exactly zero effort to improve their station because they believe the responsbility to provide for themselves falls on someone else.

That is nice for you but what about the millions of people who are not treated fairly? Or the ones who the banks have frauded out of the equity in their homes? Did everyone who put their 401k's or have their pensions tap get that fair and equal treatment too?

Then go after them. Don't punish all of the good businesses out there by making it harder for them. You are making every excuse under the sun to absolve people of responsibilty, putting your money in a 401k is a gamble which means you risk losing what you put in.

You do have a point everyone has circumstances. If your parents had not been able to insure you recieved treatment you may not be here to state your position. the fact is though you are and so are my children and in the next few years my grandchildren may have their own children to watch after. So with that I see everyone needs to get a grip on what has been transpiring as the freedoms of choice are being stripped while people make less and less each year.

Yes, thank god my dad's dad imbued him with smarts to figure out early on that working for other people aint the way to make money. Which thus put him in a position to overcome one of life's little curveballs.

Apparently you are saying I make $12.00 an hour and I am happy so fuck the rest of you. See the guy/gal that works at the insurance company that makes $18.00 to $30.00 an hour says the same thing. Yet they add in their I do my part I let a person down the street clean my garage for $10.00 an hour. The banker/wall street person makes millions so the insurance company worker is just a peon to them too. This country has been built on the backs of it's labor pool. By refusing to take care of that working pool the country is slitting it's own throat.

Answer the fucking question you chicken. If my company was forced to do what you are proposing right now, what would happen to it?

I never paid myself as much I paid my employees starting out. My cash benefits came at the end of the year when the profits were counted. insuring my employees could survive always came first. Even if that meant pulling my own cash out of my pocket to help them. Did that more than a few times. A newly hired couple needed a car in order to get to work. when theirs broke down I just happened to have cash from an artwork job in my pocket. That cash paid for their new used car so they could get to work.

If I filled a temporary position that an employee would be doing I then recieved that paycheck that would have gone to an employee.

Our personal standard of living sucked while we built the company. We ate a lot of beans and bought our clothes at thrift stores. That was a personal choice to put the money made back into build that business. It was not force on me by slave standards that a majority of employers have towards their employees.


There is no change all of the sudden I fought for employees rights back then just as much if not more than I do now. When we could not afford to pay a decent wage we worked a lot of hours ourselves. hundred hour weeks were not out of the norm.

Those were your choices. You are under no obligation to do any of that for your employers not do they have any right to expect it from you. It kind of begs the question as to why you aren't still in busiess for yourself.

You do a lot of imagining Bern. Unless your employer is a fairly large corporate entity i would think that they would want more people to do better. Unless of course they cater to only that one percent of the elite.

I do not think we have anymore to discuss. you can't see beyond your nose.

If you want me to give and entertain you ideas that would require that you do the same yourself.

Of course my company wants to do right by its employees. At the same time they have to do right for the company as a whole. Sometimes that means sacrafcing a few for the sake of the whole. If you can not see how stupid it is to financially strap a company even more than it already is, by obligating them to something they have no moral obligation to at all, it isn't me who can't see past the nose their face dear. You are the one breading the weaker society by making people think all these things are simply suppossed to be given to them.

 

[Zoomie1980]

It is not a matter of a bleeding heart. It happens to be that if a company does not pay a living wage to it's employees it does not belong in business. No one should be subjected to making application for food stamps or welfare to aument their job because neglectful employers refuse to pay their employees a living wage. Employers who refuse to pay a living wage does nothing more than add to the welfare roles of this country.

What good is a job if one cannot make enough to buy beans, pay the light bill and be able to pay to get to that worthless job?

Who exactly do you thnk drove that market? If you will refer back to my post I said, bankers/insurance companies/real estate/credit card companies/lawyers. You cannot provide a stable economic base when the cards have been stack against any average worker or small business enterprise. You need to get a new deck to work with that has not been marked.



I have not realized it changed. Who do you think owns these major corporations? It sure is not private enterprise.




Better yet ask what opens their eyes reality instead of some claimed objectivity? You are one of many who holds a number. When your number comes up and you are out of a job and you cannot pay your bills (credit card or otherwise) I would hate to see you back on some forum singing the blues about how you never thought it could happen to you. It's obvious you have no understanding and lack the compassion to even attempt to try and understand what is happening out here in la-la land.


IF THE VAST MAJORITY OF COMPANIES TREATED THEIR EMPLOYEES SO WELL VERY FEW PEOPLE WOULD BE BITCHING ABOUT A LIVING WAGE.

That is nice for you but what about the millions of people who are not treated fairly? Or the ones who the banks have frauded out of the equity in their homes? Did everyone who put their 401k's or have their pensions tap get that fair and equal treatment too?

You do have a point everyone has circumstances. If your parents had not been able to insure you recieved treatment you may not be here to state your position. the fact is though you are and so are my children and in the next few years my grandchildren may have their own children to watch after. So with that I see everyone needs to get a grip on what has been transpiring as the freedoms of choice are being stripped while people make less and less each year.

Apparently you are saying I make $12.00 an hour and I am happy so fuck the rest of you. See the guy/gal that works at the insurance company that makes $18.00 to $30.00 an hour says the same thing. Yet they add in their I do my part I let a person down the street clean my garage for $10.00 an hour. The banker/wall street person makes millions so the insurance company worker is just a peon to them too. This country has been built on the backs of it's labor pool. By refusing to take care of that working pool the country is slitting it's own throat.



I never paid myself as much I paid my employees starting out. My cash benefits came at the end of the year when the profits were counted. insuring my employees could survive always came first. Even if that meant pulling my own cash out of my pocket to help them. Did that more than a few times. A newly hired couple needed a car in order to get to work. when theirs broke down I just happened to have cash from an artwork job in my pocket. That cash paid for their new used car so they could get to work.

If I filled a temporary position that an employee would be doing I then recieved that paycheck that would have gone to an employee.

Our personal standard of living sucked while we built the company. We ate a lot of beans and bought our clothes at thrift stores. That was a personal choice to put the money made back into build that business. It was not force on me by slave standards that a majority of employers have towards their employees.


There is no change all of the sudden I fought for employees rights back then just as much if not more than I do now. When we could not afford to pay a decent wage we worked a lot of hours ourselves. hundred hour weeks were not out of the norm.

You do a lot of imagining Bern. Unless your employer is a fairly large corporate entity i would think that they would want more people to do better. Unless of course they cater to only that one percent of the elite.

I do not think we have anymore to discuss. you can't see beyond your nose.

Well it is quite obvious why you did not remain in business for yourself. There is one, and ONLY ONE, reason for going into business, to MAKE MONEY. Period. Anyone that starts a business with any other purpose in mind is almost ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED to fail.

And you should introduce yourself to a personal injury law firm.....

 

[RodISHI]

Your question is irrelevant because that is not the duty of business. It isn't their duty to provide your standard of living. IT IS YOUR FUCKING DUTY TO PROVIDE YOUR STANDARD. Your proposal will bread dependance and apathy. It will not make this country stronger, it will make it weaker because people will learn if all they need to do is flip burgers to get by then that is all they will do.

This is only your own limited ignorant opinion.

Yes I know in your world everyone is to blame but yourself. But it takes two to tango. Nobody shoved those attractive mortgages down anybody's throat. People who coudn't afford them were stupid and took. This gets down to the fundamental of the thinking of people like you. It's always someone elses responsibility to take care of you.

I did not take one of those attractive mortgages.

It's government's job to make sure people that don't want to educate themselves dont' get taken advantage. it's businesss job to make sure you have a liveable wage absolving yourself of doing it yourself. Behavior is learned and the behavior you taught your very employee when you bought them a car is that the best course of action is to sit on your ass because bleeding hearts like yourself think it's honeslty in their best interest if you save them. You won't.

I paid for the car to enable an employee to be able to work. The employee was more than willing to have me deduct small monthly payments from the paycheck. I owned the company and it was my signature or my husband's signature on the paychecks which allowed me to retain a valuble asset and the valuble asset to retain a job.

I've already taken welfare once in my life. Unlike you I don't play the fucking victim. I don't have this notion that I am entitled to remain oblivious to business conditions and be obtusely unaware of whether or not my job is jeopardy. Do not get the less you hold yourself accountable for, the less you actually do to accomplish those things and weaker the person you will become. That is the type of culture you are breading (quite literally it sounds like).

Thanks your two cent worth.

Very few are bitching about a living a wage. Anyone that has any moderatley marketable skills certainly isn't. They have jobs and good ones, with excellent benefits. The people that are pissing and moaning are the burger flippers at McDonalds and people like you who have absolved who are willing to put in exactly zero effort to improve their station because they believe the responsbility to provide for themselves falls on someone else.

Take your bitches to the AFL-CIO, UAW, APA, all of the trade unions. Maybe they all would like to hear your slant on things since you claim most are so happy with life.

Then go after them. Don't punish all of the good businesses out there by making it harder for them.

It is the responsibility of the elected representatives to represent the majority of people in their respective districts and states.

You are making every excuse under the sun to absolve people of responsibilty, putting your money in a 401k is a gamble which means you risk losing what you put in.

I do not have a 401k. never have had one. it is not that I could not have afforded one but it was pretty obvous what could happen. Therefore I declined having one.

Yes, thank god my dad's dad imbued him with smarts to figure out early on that working for other people aint the way to make money. Which thus put him in a position to overcome one of life's little curveballs.

Does this mean that you work for daddy?

Answer the fucking question you chicken. If my company was forced to do what you are proposing right now, what would happen to it?

No clue but if they cannot afford to do business they better seek another line of work. Maybe you should consider cashing in that 401k if you have one. You may need it.

Those were your choices. You are under no obligation to do any of that for your employers not do they have any right to expect it from you. It kind of begs the question as to why you aren't still in busiess for yourself.

How do you know I am not?

If you want me to give and entertain you ideas that would require that you do the same yourself.

I did not ask you to.

Of course my company wants to do right by its employees. At the same time they have to do right for the company as a whole. Sometimes that means sacrafcing a few for the sake of the whole. If you can not see how stupid it is to financially strap a company even more than it already is, by obligating them to something they have no moral obligation to at all, it isn't me who can't see past the nose their face dear. You are the one breading the weaker society by making people think all these things are simply suppossed to be given to them.

What are you advocating? Are you some kind of superior being or race, Superman maybe?

The gist of your post claim that anyone who advocates in favor of a living wage is, "Breeding", "superior," "weaker" employees by allowing starvation and slave policies.

 

[RodISHI]

Well it is quite obvious why you did not remain in business for yourself. There is one, and ONLY ONE, reason for going into business, to MAKE MONEY. Period. Anyone that starts a business with any other purpose in mind is almost ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED to fail.

And you should introduce yourself to a personal injury law firm.....

Gee thanks for the advice.

 

[Zoomie1980]

Gee thanks for the advice.

Well it is quite clear you are unfit to run a business. You can't have a bleeding heart and effectively run a business. My sister was just like you. She believed her business had a "social agenda" in addition to making money. She pissed away thousands of dollars "helping" employees with all kinds of personal issues. She finally ran her business into the ground in about 12 years and now works for an insurance company.

You will NEVER succeed in business if you believe you have a social agenda in addition to making money.

The truth is MOST people with skills are HAPPILY employed. They LIKE the companies they work for. Most CEO's are NOT greed mongering slobs but legitimately care for their employees. The media does a disservice in highlighting all the bad apples. I am a big employer in a fortune 500 company. We have pretty lavish benifits because we don't just want employees we want the BEST the market can offer. Our employees give us almost 95% above average or better rating in quality of life surveys.

But we don't employ burger flippers either. You have to have a skill to work for us. And we expect a lot. We get a lot. We treat employees well and they treat us well. But in the end of the day we exist to make our shareholders money. We have no other purpose for being. NONE.

Until you figure that out, you will NEVER succeed in any business endeavor.

 

[RodISHI]

Well it is quite clear you are unfit to run a business. You can't have a bleeding heart and effectively run a business. My sister was just like you. She believed her business had a "social agenda" in addition to making money. She pissed away thousands of dollars "helping" employees with all kinds of personal issues. She finally ran her business into the ground in about 12 years and now works for an insurance company.

You will NEVER succeed in business if you believe you have a social agenda in addition to making money.

The truth is MOST people with skills are HAPPILY employed. They LIKE the companies they work for. Most CEO's are NOT greed mongering slobs but legitimately care for their employees. The media does a disservice in highlighting all the bad apples. I am a big employer in a fortune 500 company. We have pretty lavish benifits because we don't just want employees we want the BEST the market can offer. Our employees give us almost 95% above average or better rating in quality of life surveys.

But we don't employ burger flippers either. You have to have a skill to work for us. And we expect a lot. We get a lot. We treat employees well and they treat us well. But in the end of the day we exist to make our shareholders money. We have no other purpose for being. NONE.

Until you figure that out, you will NEVER succeed in any business endeavor.

I've been hearing about this forum for several hours now. I am the husband of the gal who will never succeed in any business endeavor as you say. You have alot to learn lad and it's not up to my wife or I to teach you. What is happening now in this country today is the result of a president being duped by two bankers. It haunted this president until the day he died. He said and I quote, "Had I known what they were doing I would never have signed it." This particular president had signed a bill into law that has devastated this country. You go search it out and find out who it was and what the man signed. Being a member of a top notch fortune 500 company you should be able to easily figure out who, what and where. Cheers lad. Rod

 

[RetiredGySgt]

71 dollars an hour not 30, by the way. And the non US companies pay almost half that at 41. Unions are big business. No one deserves 71 dollars an hour for installing a seat or checking a radio.

 

[Ravi]

71 dollars an hour not 30, by the way. And the non US companies pay almost half that at 41. Unions are big business. No one deserves 71 dollars an hour for installing a seat or checking a radio.

That may or may not be true, but these companies agreed to do it and now many seem willing to let them off the hook for their side of the bargain.

 

[Skull Pilot]

That may or may not be true, but these companies agreed to do it and now many seem willing to let them off the hook for their side of the bargain.

And if by agreeing to it, these companies made themselves unprofitable and uncompetitive, they should go under and NOT be held up and kept in business with taxpayer money.

Here's an idea, if all these workers, whose labor is worth so much, all take a pay cut and take stocks as pay in the amount of the pay cut, the company will save money, be more competitive AND the revered workers will own a share of the company they work for.

Why the hell should tax payers be forced to invest in these companies when the employers and the unions of those employees won't?

 

[Ravi]

And if by agreeing to it, these companies made themselves unprofitable and uncompetitive, they should go under and NOT be held up and kept in business with taxpayer money.

Here's an idea, if all these workers, whose labor is worth so much, all take a pay cut and take stocks as pay in the amount of the pay cut, the company will save money, be more competitive AND the revered workers will own a share of the company they work for.

Why the hell should tax payers be forced to invest in these companies when the employers and the unions of those employers won't?

I don't disagree with you. However, I think blaming the employees for the employer's incompetence is rather ridiculous.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't disagree with you. However, I think blaming the employees for the employer's incompetence is rather ridiculous.

The UNIONS are to blame. Plain and simple. They forced the issue and CONTINUE to force the issue. What exactly where the companies to do? Shut down years ago when the Unions started blackmailing them?

Both sides are to blame. BOTH. The "innocent" union worker is NOT INNOCENT.

 

[editec]

There's only two ways one can come down on this question...

1. America is a republic, and the republic's purpose is to take care of its citizens; or

2. American is a temporary nation that we're in the process of defunding and abandoning in favor of an international world government run by a corporate elite.

Now,BOTH parties seem to be taking us down internationalist road.

NAFTA, GATT and the ITO are an affront to any nationalist because those trade agreements put the wellbeing international business community ahead of the well being of this Republic.

No, this is NOT just a question of 8th grade economics as so many of you houseslaves have proven to us you understand.

Sadly, the real world (and real world economics) is way more complex than some of you think it is.

Of course, since many of you obviously hate American government, and hate Americans who you feel are unworthy of your consideration, and feel like it is in your best interests to side with the people who are bankrupting this nation, discussing this issue with most of you rationally is rather difficult.

Not one of us who objects to FREE TRADE as currently practiced doesn't understand the basic economics you so dutifully post over and over and over again as though we somehow must have missed it the first 500 times we read it.

We don't need your junior high school level explanations for why you think its okay that the American middle class is going down the shitter for the benefit of the internationalist cabal of billionaires.

Believe me when I tell you that the outcome of your arrogant conceit (that you will float above the problems these policies are causing most of us) will be proven incorrect soon enough, as our pain becomes YOUR pain, too.

Some of you must be beginning to see how these stupid policies are effecting us already as you see our economy fibrilating due the national debt loads.

But I know how easy it is to cling to a belief system once you're comfortable with it, so I'm waiting till some of our resident libertarians lose their jobs due to outsourcing.

Then they'll suddenly understand why making American workers complete against slave wages in totalitarian nations was a truly really bad idea.

It made the top tiers of our nation rich, for sure, but it cost the American economy a fortune overall.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I don't disagree with you. However, I think blaming the employees for the employer's incompetence is rather ridiculous.

Forcing tax payers to pay for a corporations stupidity and mismanagement and incompetence is ridiculous

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

There's only two ways one can come down on this question...

1. America is a republic, and the republic's purpose is to take care of its citizens; or

2. American is a temporary nation that we're in the process of defunding and abandoning in favor of an international world government run by a corporate elite.

Now,BOTH parties seem to be taking us down internationalist road.

NAFTA, GATT and the ITO are an affront to any nationalist because those trade agreements put the wellbeing international business community ahead of the well being of this Republic.

No, this is NOT just a question of 8th grade economics as so many of you houseslaves have proven to us you understand.

Sadly, the real world (and real world economics) is way more complex than some of you think it is.

Of course, since many of you obviously hate American government, and hate Americans who you feel are unworthy of your consideration, and feel like it is in your best interests to side with the people who are bankrupting this nation, discussing this issue with most of you rationally is rather difficult.

Not one of us who objects to FREE TRADE as currently practiced doesn't understand the basic economics you so dutifully post over and over and over again as though we somehow must have missed it the first 500 times we read it.

We don't need your junior high school level explanations for why you think its okay that the American middle class is going down the shitter for the benefit of the internationalist cabal of billionaires.

Believe me when I tell you that the outcome of your arrogant conceit (that you will float above the problems these policies are causing most of us) will be proven incorrect soon enough, as our pain becomes YOUR pain, too.

Some of you must be beginning to see how these stupid policies are effecting us already as you see our economy fibrilating due the national debt loads.

But I know how easy it is to cling to a belief system once you're comfortable with it, so I'm waiting till some of our resident libertarians lose their jobs due to outsourcing.

Then they'll suddenly understand why making American workers complete against slave wages in totalitarian nations was a truly really bad idea.

It made the top tiers of our nation rich, for sure, but it cost the American economy a fortune overall.

I don't see why you'd complain about us posting up our opinions and ideas, this is a discussion board after all. You and other Protectionists have posted your thoughts up at least as much as we have, so what's the problem?

As to us being somehow above this financial crisis, I can't speak for the other "resident libertarians," but I don't think I'm floating above it. But I also realize that giving billions of dollars to failed businesses is only prolonging our problem. I realize that tariffs only help the business they protect and hurt everybody else. A recession isn't fun for anybody, but it needs to happen at this point. Don't blame us free market Libertarians because we are prescribing bad tasting medicine for the illness that the Federal Reserve most prominently gave to the country.

 

[editec]

I don't see why you'd complain about us posting up our opinions and ideas, this is a discussion board after all. You and other Protectionists have posted your thoughts up at least as much as we have, so what's the problem?

My complaint is merely directed toward those who keep telling us that we who object to free traderism don't understand the laws of supply and demand, Kevin.

Yeah, we get that.

As to us being somehow above this financial crisis, I can't speak for the other "resident libertarians," but I don't think I'm floating above it.

Understood. That complaint was addressed to those who tell us that they're doing well and the reason that everyone else isn't is because we're all too stupid to make a living.

But I also realize that giving billions of dollars to failed businesses is only prolonging our problem

.

Could be...depends on whether the failing business is failing because it sucks as a business, or because the laws have put it into a an untenable situation, doesn't it?

I realize that tariffs only help the business they protect and hurt everybody else.

If you "realize" that then you realize nothing about why this nation became the most power and WEALTHIEST nation on earth, Kevin.

If you "realize" that, then you know next to nothing about real world international economics.

A recession isn't fun for anybody, but it needs to happen at this point.

Don't blame us free market Libertarians because we are prescribing bad tasting medicine for the illness that the Federal Reserve most prominently gave to the country.

I see that you're clinging to the believe that this economic situation is all because of the real estate crises.

We've been over this enough that I don't need to explain it to you again.

The real estate problem is only PART of what ails our economy.

It is a symptom of the real problem, not the problem itself.

A healthy economy could have shugged off those loses easily enough.

A healthy economy wouldn't have created that situation to begin with.

A healthy economy doesn't let see the average family's income declining in purchasing power for fourty years and think that's okay.

 

[Skull Pilot]

There's only two ways one can come down on this question...

1. America is a republic, and the republic's purpose is to take care of its citizens; or

2. American is a temporary nation that we're in the process of defunding and abandoning in favor of an international world government run by a corporate elite.

How about America is supposed to be a country where Americans are allowed to take care of themselves, where the government does not infringe on our liberties, where people have the right to keep more of what they earn and with that money make decisions that will result in the society we want?

Now,BOTH parties seem to be taking us down internationalist road.

NAFTA, GATT and the ITO are an affront to any nationalist because those trade agreements put the wellbeing international business community ahead of the well being of this Republic.

The government should not be making trade deals. The only trade deals we need we need are ones American businesses make with other businesses.

The public will decide if those deals are good or bad by giving their money to the businesses that provide the best product or service at the best price.

Now I am all for American companies to be just that American. Foreign owned companies should not be given a foothold in the US but those US businesses should be able to conduct business with anyone anywhere in the world completely unfettered by the government. As long as products sold are on par with FDA safety standards etc. See I am for some government.

N

o, this is NOT just a question of 8th grade economics as so many of you houseslaves have proven to us you understand.

Sadly, the real world (and real world economics) is way more complex than some of you think it is.

Yes there are many ramifications to consider in economics both good and bad. But big government people don't ever seem to see the bad in government meddling in private businesses.

Of course, since many of you obviously hate American government, and hate Americans who you feel are unworthy of your consideration, and feel like it is in your best interests to side with the people who are bankrupting this nation, discussing this issue with most of you rationally is rather difficult.

I don't hate the American government. I hate the government infringing on my liberty by telling me what to do, who to hire how, much to pay them, how much of my money I can keep etc etc etc.

I especially hate the government forcing me to buy into a failing company via a bail out.

Not one of us who objects to FREE TRADE as currently practiced doesn't understand the basic economics you so dutifully post over and over and over again as though we somehow must have missed it the first 500 times we read it.

Free trade isn't currently being practiced is it?

We don't need your junior high school level explanations for why you think its okay that the American middle class is going down the shitter for the benefit of the internationalist cabal of billionaires.

Get the government out of business. Take some power away from government, reduce its role in our lives and the money and power brokering will come to an end because it will yield no fruit. The government should have very specific very narrowly defined roles and should not be this amorphous giant it has become.

Believe me when I tell you that the outcome of your arrogant conceit (that you will float above the problems these policies are causing most of us) will be proven incorrect soon enough, as our pain becomes YOUR pain, too.

Some of you must be beginning to see how these stupid policies are effecting us already as you see our economy fibrilating due the national debt loads.

Government doing what government shouldn't be doing is a large part of the debt load is it not?

But I know how easy it is to cling to a belief system once you're comfortable with it, so I'm waiting till some of our resident libertarians lose their jobs due to outsourcing.

Then they'll suddenly understand why making American workers complete against slave wages in totalitarian nations was a truly really bad idea.

It made the top tiers of our nation rich, for sure, but it cost the American economy a fortune overall.

If an American company (see my above definition) wants to import products and can do so at a profit why should they not be able to? That company still has to have people in this country package, deliver and sell that product don't they?

Or should the government tell Americans that we can only buy certain products from certain companies and we must pay a specified price even if that company is poorly run and the product is a piece of shit AND if that company fails anyway the government tells us that we are being forced to buy stock via our taxes so as not to let a poorly run company go bankrupt?

Is that the America YOU want to live in?