We're Lowering Your Wages

[sealybobo]

What is wrong with people? Why are we arguing in favor of lower wages? Are we jealous that people working for the Big 3 make $30 hr? Don’t we realize that our wages are where they are because the Unions brought them up? And many of you don’t even realize that you’re lives are impacted by the Big 3’s success. Too many people are in favor of letting the Big 3 fail. That can only mean most of you don’t get it. Just like you don’t get that the bank bailout was just a bank robbery. Bush didn’t empty the treasury enough in 7 years. He had to steal $750 billion more.

Now is not the time to get tight with the dollar, or to get tough with corporate CEO’s. If you are going to do that, do that to the bankers. They only got about $250 billion of the $750 billion. Let’s loan the $50 billion the Big 3 want from the $750 billion. Let’s make the banks loan the Big 3 that money. All of our jobs are tied to the Big 3, whether we know it or not.

Why are we allowing Corporate America to send jobs overseas and ship the products back to sell to us? If we aren’t good enough to make the products, we shouldn’t buy the products. Not in every case, but Corporate America/The GOP went too far. Yes Clinton signed NAFTA but Bush/Delay/The GOP took it too far.

I just don’t get why people applaud Honda and Toyota for paying their employees $15 hr. Are any of you raising a family on $15 hr?

It is not a given that America will always have a strong/big middle class. Our government and tax system created the middle class we had from the 50’s to the 90’s. And Bushanomics is tearing us apart. If we keep doing what we are doing now, we’ll have a small rich class, small merchantile middle class, and a huge working poor population. That’s why our founding fathers left England.

Wait until the market is flooded with people who can do your jobs. How much do you think you will be worth then? All the people who are losing their jobs are going back to be retrained as nursing, engineer and IT Professional. GREAT! Now corporate America will be able to lower their worth next.

This is an assault on the middle class, and most of you don’t even know it yet.

 

[Gem]

I think that the problem people have with $30 per hour salaries has nothing to do with jealousy, nothing to do with wanting people to have trouble raising their families...and everything to do with whether or not that salary is economically feasible given the fact that people, by and large, do not seem to want to buy the $30 per hour employees cars as much as they want the $15 per hour employees car.

If a business is losing money because people don't want their product AND they are continuing to pay their employees double what other companies are paying...they are going to have trouble. And giving them more money so that they can continue to pay their employees double what other companies are paying and making products that the people don't want isn't going to solve the problem...its just going to delay the next time the company comes begging for money to save its employees.

 

[Shogun]

meh.. dont' worry.. these people won't be happy until the American auto worker makes the same as all that cheap labor from mexico. Why pay 30/hr when you can continue to cry and bitch about the cost of labor when paying 4/hour? Nothing is more AMERICAN than telling Americans to fuck off while you grab cheap labor from india. Hungry? Thank a Free Market Capitalista.

 

[Ravi]

I agree with you on the wages, Bobo. It isn't the wages that are killing the car companies. It's a combination of a poor product and the fact that people can't get or afford car loans.

 

[sealybobo]

I think that the problem people have with $30 per hour salaries has nothing to do with jealousy, nothing to do with wanting people to have trouble raising their families...and everything to do with whether or not that salary is economically feasible given the fact that people, by and large, do not seem to want to buy the $30 per hour employees cars as much as they want the $15 per hour employees car.

If a business is losing money because people don't want their product AND they are continuing to pay their employees double what other companies are paying...they are going to have trouble. And giving them more money so that they can continue to pay their employees double what other companies are paying and making products that the people don't want isn't going to solve the problem...its just going to delay the next time the company comes begging for money to save its employees.

You can get rid of the jobs banks and the CEO can go from $20 million a year salary down to $1 million a year, but I don't think Americans should resent the employees making a great wage. If we do, then we are arguing to lower our own wages.

And I don't see that the foreign car companies cars are that much cheaper or better than ours.

And maybe if those foreign countries would allow our car companies to sell cars in their countries, maybe that would help the companies bottom line and so they could continue to pay good American wages, but they don't. So trade is not fair.

And until it is fair, we should have some bit of protectionism going on.

 

[RodISHI]

You must have a misconception. It is not that majority of people would want any of the average workers wages lowered. The fact is that if these large companies had been minding their own P's and Q's the American public would have no need to bail them out.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The market decides the value of a job or service.

If the market dictates that a guy who installs 2 screws and a nut all day for 8 hours and gets 6 weeks paid time off a year isn't worth paying $1200 a week then the company who pays that guy 1200 a week will go out of business.

And that company should go out of business.

Do you really want the government using our tax dollars to prop up the pay of a bunch of assembly line monkeys? Hell MY money should be left in my pocket not given to the fucking auto companies that have been failing for years.

If you let these poorly run, profitless companies fail, you won't have to worry about CEO pay because they'll all be unemployed too, as they should be.

The government is basically forcing we the tax payers to buy worthless stocks. What would you do if you got a letter from Uncle Sam saying that you had to buy 2500 dollars worth of stock in Company X ,and you were subject to incarceration if you don't, even though that company hadn't posted a profit in 5 years?

What would you do if you got that letter?


Well WAKE UP because this is exactly what the government is doing but without the letter.

 

[sealybobo]

You must have a misconception. It is not that majority of people would want any of the average workers wages lowered. The fact is that if these large companies had been minding their own P's and Q's the American public would have no need to bail them out.

But even Honda and Toyota's sales are down 50% from last year.

And you don't think Bush and his buddies gouging us at the pumps for 3 years had anything to do with SUV's becoming unpopular? Ford was profitable in 1999. Coincidence? Did you see it coming? Did you know gas would go back down to under $2? I didn't. Bush didn't. At least he said he didn't know when gas went up to $4.

Or letting countries come sell cars here when they don't let us sell anything in their countries?

Or American corporations letting illegals work for them under the table?

The blame game is getting old. When jobs are scarce, wages go down. That's why they are sending jobs overseas and letting illegals come here to work.

It isn't the union auto workers fault. Way too many of us non union workers have seen our wages go down or lost our jobs for it to be their fault. Next it will be our fault. Fat lazy American swine!

 

[sealybobo]

You must have a misconception. It is not that majority of people would want any of the average workers wages lowered. The fact is that if these large companies had been minding their own P's and Q's the American public would have no need to bail them out.

You don't realize it, but you are helping to lower all our wages. They got you arguing about overpaid union workers to distract you from the real problem. American workers cost too much. Or foreign workers are cheaper.

Maybe union workers are overpaid and lazy. They also only make up about 12% of the American work force. They're just breaking them first. You're next.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

You keep saying that countries don't allow us to sell cars over there, but that is a lie. It's just that nobody over there wants to buy an inferior product just for the "privilege" of it being American.

 

[Navy1960]

I've had this debate with many here for several weeks running in other threads as to the merits of the auto companies and while one can look at the UAW and say yes the salaries are high as compared to the competition even with the domestic foreign builders it is not the only reason that the big 3 find themselves here in this position. So IMHO one should look at the whole picture, take GM for example, you have basically had the same board running that company for years that has approved every UAW contract including the health and pension benefits. One cannot blame the factory worker that has for years been conditioned that this is the acceptable norm , when in fact world wide it is not the norm for auto companies that wish to compete and survive. If you take this in combination with companies that are slow to respond to market needs, have poor brand identification, poor quality perception, poor engineering, high health and pension costs, poor management then you have a blueprint for an insolvent company. Now IMHO this issue can be resolved in several ways and I have come to believe that it is the word Bankruptcy that some find distasteful and it's implications are far reaching when it comes to marketing, brand, credit, and supply issues, so what is best here? IMO the best thing to to do is to resolve this issue with with a board that has the EXACT same authority that a Bankruptcy judge has as one of the stipulations for lending this money. The second thing to do here is to require these boards to resign and force one of the companies to merge (Chrysler) and then trim them down to the point where they can compete. Now in exchange for this, these companies that produce autos for the American market should whereever possible build them in the United States. It seems only fair if they plan to use American tax payer dollars then the cars meant for this market should be constructed here. Much the same as the Toyota's and Hondas are here. There are many solutions to this issue, but the bottom line here is this, that in order to have employment where a person can earn a wage from a vibrant company, you need to have a vibrant company first, and that takes ALL sides understanding that the automobile model must change from the 1950's model they have worked with for so long. If a person can work for Toyota in San Antonio and make 23.00 and hour with health benefits and three full shifts, and that Tundra that comes out of that plants labor cost is 33.00 and hour then there is no reason why it is unreasonable to expect the UAW cannot do the same in areas where the cost of living in many cases is much lower and the wage scale will go farther. In the end though, let's stop blaming the workers here shall we, and understand that the UAW management teams as well as the Big 3 management teams got us here.

One other thing worth mentioning here too, I am no fan of these bailouts as seen in this disaster that the Fed has pulled this big bait and switch on everyone with 700 billion dollars. It would seem to me that if the purpose here was to give the banks 700 billion to free up credit to open up lending then demand they do or take the money back. One more thing worth mentioning here has anyone given any thought that not only have these companies already been approved for 25 billion dollars a few months ago but, they also each of them have finance companies that should be allowed to draw from that initial TARP fund to open up credit to sell cars.

 

[sealybobo]

The market decides the value of a job or service.

If the market dictates that a guy who installs 2 screws and a nut all day for 8 hours and gets 6 weeks paid time off a year isn't worth paying $1200 a week then the company who pays that guy 1200 a week will go out of business.

And that company should go out of business.

Do you really want the government using our tax dollars to prop up the pay of a bunch of assembly line monkeys? Hell MY money should be left in my pocket not given to the fucking auto companies that have been failing for years.

If you let these poorly run, profitless companies fail, you won't have to worry about CEO pay because they'll all be unemployed too, as they should be.

The government is basically forcing we the tax payers to buy worthless stocks. What would you do if you got a letter from Uncle Sam saying that you had to buy 2500 dollars worth of stock in Company X ,and you were subject to incarceration if you don't, even though that company hadn't posted a profit in 5 years?

What would you do if you got that letter?


Well WAKE UP because this is exactly what the government is doing but without the letter.

What profit do defense companies make? Isn't that tax payer money? At least Ford makes a product.

The "market" got the GOP government to go along with lowering your value thru outsourcing and/or hiring illegals.

This kind of thinking is very dangerous to the American worker.

FYI, Skull is a business OWNER everyone. Of course he will argue for cheaper labor.

And you are leaving out soooo much. For example, how important it is to have manufacturing in America. And we will never ask American workers to work for $4 a day, but maybe that's all corporations think it is worth.

That's why we have a government that protects we the people. For the last 8 years it has only cared about these precious corporations. Who have the balls to give their CEO's $20 million while at the same time moving jobs overseas and lowering our wages.

If the corporations don't want to hire Americans, then they should't be able to do business here. Someone else will figure out a way. And we might have to pay a dollar more, but it'll be worth it, because we'll have a strong middle class and booming economy.

You want working poor to live in this country. Not acceptable.

 

[sealybobo]

You keep saying that countries don't allow us to sell cars over there, but that is a lie. It's just that nobody over there wants to buy an inferior product just for the "privilege" of it being American.

The Ford Focus is very popular in Europe. They probably make them in Europe, but that's besides the point.

You don't know what you are saying.

 

[Shogun]

You keep saying that countries don't allow us to sell cars over there, but that is a lie. It's just that nobody over there wants to buy an inferior product just for the "privilege" of it being American.

The trade deficit between all these countries with whome we take in THEIR products is abysmal. If you need to see the figures just let me know. I support tarrifs on any imports into America above the rate at which we evenly trade with any of these nations.

 

[Shogun]

ps,

"the market" is a crock of shit abstract concept that free market capitalistas use to hide behind when erroneously insisting on the benefits of their pet economic system.

 

[Navy1960]

The Ford Focus is very popular in Europe. They probably make them in Europe, but that's besides the point.

You don't know what you are saying.

I might be incorrect here but isn't it true that the European Ford Focus is a different car than the one sold here? I am aware that all three companies make some really interesting cars they don't sell here that in some cases might be very good sellers , especially when it comes to fuel economy.

 

[xsited1]

So how many people here (Chris included) are driving a car made by one of the 'Big 3' automakers? I drive a Ford and a Jeep.

 

[sealybobo]

So how many people here (Chris included) are driving a car made by one of the 'Big 3' automakers? I drive a Ford and a Jeep.

Invest in America | Freep.com | Detroit Free Press

You don't want an economic disaster on your hands. Not when you could have prevented it. And not in times that are already the worst in a generation.
But that's exactly what you'll have — and more — if one of the three Detroit automakers goes belly-up for lack of a government-backed loan. There will be economic hell to pay — not just in Detroit, but all across America, including in your state, in your district.
The loss of jobs, the devastated retirements, the massive loss of health care coverage, the sharp drop in local tax revenues, the closings of supplier and ancillary businesses — all would be calamitous in the best of times. And these are not good times. Just ask the people you represent.
More than 3 million jobs are at stake in the industry. General Motors, Ford and Chrysler are threaded in the fabric of businesses in every state across America.
A failure of one or more of the automakers would deepen the country's worst recession in 27 years, and it could take decades to rebuild the nation's industrial base, which will atrophy like an unused limb without the muscle-flexing of Detroit's automakers.
Who will buy the rubber, plastics, copper and computer chips that Americans make? Who will need all the tool and die shop workers, mold makers or software engineers who help drive the small-business economy in so many states?
You don't want all this blood on your hands. No one could.
Because the losses from an auto industry failure are about more than dry statistics. Every job associated with the industry is a family, a home, a college education, a cancer treatment or a secure retirement. Every one of those jobs is about someone making a living doing work that's vital to the nation's economic interests.
No one knows more than the people of Michigan how precious those jobs are, or how fragile they've become in a cutthroat global economy where so many countries prop up their own auto industries.
Know that the people of Michigan, and especially those who toil for the automakers, are as angry as anyone over the string of misjudgments, failures and bad decisions that contributed to the industry's woes. No one here is enthused about the idea of extending government money to a private industry with so many self-inflicted wounds. But the automakers deserve credit for real gains, including products on par with their world rivals and plants that operate among the best in the business.
Remember, too, that Detroit helped rescue America as the Arsenal of Democracy in World War II and, through GM's no-interest loans, helped jump-start the battered economy after 9/11. Now, when our automakers and autoworkers need a hand up, will America really turn its back?
The Detroit automakers are hemorrhaging cash to stay in business. Two of them are nearly drained, and the third is getting by on a transfusion. They can get well. They have shown how. But first they have to survive. And their survival is in America's best interests.
You can help them. And if you don't, make no mistake: There will be bleeding throughout the land.

 

[Bern80]

What is wrong with people? Why are we arguing in favor of lower wages? Are we jealous that people working for the Big 3 make $30 hr? Don’t we realize that our wages are where they are because the Unions brought them up? And many of you don’t even realize that you’re lives are impacted by the Big 3’s success. Too many people are in favor of letting the Big 3 fail. That can only mean most of you don’t get it. Just like you don’t get that the bank bailout was just a bank robbery. Bush didn’t empty the treasury enough in 7 years. He had to steal $750 billion more.

I'm afraid it means you don't get it. As in don't get basic economics. What most of us can see that you don't is that maybe $30 bucks an hour with benefits most of us can only dream of, for doing something that requires a skill so easy a caveman could do it, might just be a tad overvalued.

Now is not the time to get tight with the dollar, or to get tough with corporate CEO’s. If you are going to do that, do that to the bankers. They only got about $250 billion of the $750 billion. Let’s loan the $50 billion the Big 3 want from the $750 billion. Let’s make the banks loan the Big 3 that money. All of our jobs are tied to the Big 3, whether we know it or not.

The end result of which will be everything will cost more for everyone. Great plan genius.

Why are we allowing Corporate America to send jobs overseas and ship the products back to sell to us? If we aren’t good enough to make the products, we shouldn’t buy the products. Not in every case, but Corporate America/The GOP went too far. Yes Clinton signed NAFTA but Bush/Delay/The GOP took it too far.

I just don’t get why people applaud Honda and Toyota for paying their employees $15 hr. Are any of you raising a family on $15 hr?

Since when is it a companies job to provide you with some arbitrary figure you feel is neccessary to raise a family? For the, I don't know, hundredth time now, it is not a businesses job to provide for your standard of living.

Why do we allow American companies to move jobs overseas? Again simple economics. They have a competitive advantage in labor. They can do the same things at reduced cost. Which opens up even more advantages for them. They can offer a similar or even better quality product at a lesser cost. They can have greater profits making them more attractive to investors and also giving them the ability to invest in technologies they might not otherwise have money for. Or a combination of all of those things.

So company A ships some jobs overseas, but company B insists that they're going to keep jobs in the U.S. Company B now is in the unenviable weaker position in comparison to company A. After all if the consumer can get the same or better quality for less from A, they probably will. Which will just lead to a downward spiral for company B.

Every company is going through this right now. Trying to figure out ways to cut costs so they can keep themselves profitable. It would just wonderful if every company could gaurantee everyone jobs for life, unfortunately economic times demand otherwise. Yes we have had layoffs where I work, which is unfortunate and the most expenable go first. The most expendable people are those with non-scarce skill sets, so in our case a couple dozen people in production were laid off first. Then about a half dozen mid-level people were laid off. In terms of production a company can't afford to keep paying people to build something that consumers aren't buying, it's that simple. In terms of the mid-level jobs, time's like these force companies to examine where their inefficiencies are and if there are redundancies in positions unfortuantely the wises move is to get rid of those people so when the economy does turn around you come out the other end more efficient and stronger. Companies right now aren't sending jobs overseas and laying people off becuase they're all run by evil CEOs. They do it so more people can keep their jobs for the future. They do it so the business can stay in business.

This is why so many people want the Big 3 to just declare bankruptcey. The idea is to force them to do the same things our company had to do. If we just give them money, they can continue to operate as inefficiently as they always have and continue to remain at a disadvantage the companies like Toyota.

Wait until the market is flooded with people who can do your jobs. How much do you think you will be worth then? All the people who are losing their jobs are going back to be retrained as nursing, engineer and IT Professional. GREAT! Now corporate America will be able to lower their worth next.

This is an assault on the middle class, and most of you don’t even know it yet.

I'm not seeing a sudden influx of highly motivated people willing to take time out to learn new skill sets, are you? Unfortunately all I'm seeing is more whiners and people who things businesses owe you something above and beyond whatever you signed for a contract when you got hired.

 

[Valerie]

There are many solutions to this issue, but the bottom line here is this, that in order to have employment where a person can earn a wage from a vibrant company, you need to have a vibrant company first

Good post Navy!

Hey I have an idea...how about we have the fed repo the factories, fire the multimillion dollar executives, liquidate their golden parachutes, then handover the majority shares to the workers!