We're Lowering Your Wages

[Paulie]

So you really think those CEOs that drove the banks into bankruptcy and pocketed all those millions were paid what they were worth?

No, they were not worth that much. They are the opposite of the person who makes a lot LESS than they are worth. Those CEO's would have been out of jobs, with companies out of business, had the market been allowed to respond on its own. The government stepped in and backstopped the companies, which kept the companies and their CEO's in business.

In a real free market, had those companies been allowed to fail, those CEO's worth would have been realized, which would have been NOTHING.

The government artificially propped up their worth, it's that simple.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I do not see that response anywhere in what I said. Your just tooting your own little sad horn.

The government cannot confiscate the nothing from the nothing that has already been stolen with the help by the government.

The only entity stealing your money is the government

 

[RodISHI]

The only entity stealing your money is the government

That is only a precept you have from your own limited perspective.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Tell me then

What other entity in this country can compel you to involuntarily hand over a portion of your income under threat of incarceration or loss of personal property?

 

[RodISHI]

Tell me then

What other entity in this country can compel you to involuntarily hand over a portion of your income under threat of incarceration or loss of personal property?

The key word you put in your firsts statement/question was "you".

I have no money. I have no income.

It was not the whole government that stole what I did have. Although certain government entities have been complicit in assisting in the theft.

It was a few thug bankers, insurance companies, a few manufacturers that thought they could take by force anothers property via selling that person a defective piece of equipment and destroying another piece of equipment that private individual own while that individual was fulfilling a contract with the machine, greedy attorneys, judges that would rather assist in burying the truth rather than upholding the truth and a political system that is bound to protect itself no matter what the cost is to a private individual that is attempting to make a living. Because that system is operated by a bunch of sold out bought on credit woosies. You know these ones that are willing to sell themselves for nought in order to protect what they think they are entitled too because they stole it or bought it for little of nothing fair and square.

 

[Bern80]

If we are talking about me personally it is a simple answer. I have already provided for myself over and over and over again. Some asshole came along and stole it by force. That same group of assholes took control of the majority of the markets and drove the cost of living so damn high I am fighting a daily battle to just survive. I was not provided equal protection under the law.

There is not one person that can acheive anything through their own merits when those who control the judiciary, the money and the markets have already rigged the game.

Then that is a different argument. It is quite clear that your perceoption and hatred for big business is rooted in this singular experience you had. Don't pretend it isn't

Regardless, you STILL have remained unable to explain why you proposition will work and why I am wrong about what would happen. Again if you provided for yourself obviously above and beyond just a living wage for at least some period of time, why is it so damn unreasonable to expect people put that responsibility (of providing a live wage) on to themselves? Why is it so damn unreasonable to ask indiviudals to put the burden on themselves to attain the skills that warrant a living wage pay or better?

 

[Bern80]

Interesting to read this thread.

Class wars 101.

Judging from what I read here, many of you believe that the working class is lazy and ineffective and worthless.

As usual you read what you want to read. The only people I have contempt for are those that CHOSE not to imbue themselves with skills that the market finds valuable and then of the balls to complain that it is someone elses role to provide for them.

Right now the wealthy classes are winning the class war, and perhaps not coincidently the pulse of the national economy is weak.

FWIW, I think you guys are going to win your class war, and give yourselves all the advantages just long enough to detroy this nation.

America will become basically a colony, which is what I think you must want it to become.

China, a nation that is most definitely NOT a laisse faire capitalist society, but rather a communist feudal state is going to own this nation.

It already has us by the fiancial balls, thanks to that stupid religion some of you think is FREE TRADE.

Bullshit. It is peolpe like RobISHI that are winning the class war. Eventually people like myself, my parents, Skull and Zoomie will be bread out of society. Self accountability is a trait found by less and less people in this country. It is somehow someone elses responsibility, other than your own to take care of you. That mentaility is what is going to destroy society in the end editec. Becaise behavior is taught through feedback editec. Wether she admit's to it or not ROB would teach highschool kids with their first jbo that they don't need to go to school becuase they can get by in life just fine without it. Her proposal teaches society via feedback that less effort is required to achieve the same ends. If society as a whole starts putting forth less effort we're fucked.

 

[Care4all]

As usual you read what you want to read. The only people I have contempt for are those that CHOSE not to imbue themselves with skills that the market finds valuable and then of the balls to complain that it is someone elses role to provide for them. Would we all like to be rich, sure. But some are perfectly content with their middle class income.



Bullshit. It is peolpe like RobISHI that are winning the class war. Eventually people like myself, my parents, Skull and Zoomie will be bread out of society. Self accountability is a trait found by less and less people in this country. It is somehow someones responsibility, other than your own to take care of you. That mentaility is what is going to destroy society in the end editec. Becaise behavior is taught through feedback editec. Wether she admit's to it or not ROB would teach highschool kids with their first jbo that they don't need to go to school becuase they can get by in life just fine without it. Her proposal teaches society via feedback that less effort is required to achieve the same ends. If society as a whole starts putting forth less effort we're fucked.

Americans, ALL OF AMERICANS, have one of the HIGHEST Productivity rates in the ENTIRE WORLD.....

Americans are not lazy, we work harder than the rest of the westernized world....longer hours, less vacation time, less Holiday pay, and less sicktime than any other nation....

I don't think you are right on your opinion Bern, on American workers..... and are duely being unfair in your judgement of them....just look at the figures compared to all other westernized nations....we Americans work harder than the rest of the bunch and produce more per person....

Everyone wants to do well ON THEIR OWN....it is a natural instinct in my opinion and you are confusing this with the bitching taking place regarding the UNFAIR PLAYING FIELD that has been put in to place by our government, that benefits the ones who "donate" to them....imho.

Care

 

[RodISHI]

Again if you provided for yourself obviously above and beyond just a living wage for at least some period of time, why is it so damn unreasonable to expect people put that responsibility (of providing a live wage) on to themselves?

It is not a poblem when employers are mandated to pay a minimum wage that is suppose to provide or equate to a minimal standard. That is a living wage.

Why is it so damn unreasonable to ask indiviudals to put the burden on themselves to attain the skills that warrant a living wage pay or better?

Why is it so unreasonable to require all employers insure that people can make more working than they can drawing welfare?

Why should the burden be left on everyone for those employers who do not pay their employees a standard by which they can live?

Tell me why it is that we have welfare and assistance in this country?


Heck why do we have any social programs in this country?


Why did people come to this country on boats?


What are we doing every election season in this country?

Why would anyone person on the face of this earth think for one moment that they are better than another?





Why is it that you act like such an ignorant asshole Bern?


If you can fully and completely in all truth and honesty answer all of those questions to my satisfaction Bern I may consider answering you with a full and digestable answer. If not I have the option to just ignore you. That is called freedom of choice.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Let me ask you this Rod. When I was younger my first real job was at a movie theater, I worked the concession stand. I served popcorn, candy, and pop to the movie patrons. It took no skills other than being able to push the buttons to open the register, and no thinking other than being able to do simple math. I earned minimum wage. Does a job like that really deserve $12/hour and benefits? What do you think would have happened had my co-workers and I made $12/hour and benefits for such an easy job?

Here's my guess. Many of us would have been laid off or not hired in the first place. It would have been difficult to find another job because if all the unskilled labor jobs are paying $12/hour with benefits there are going to be less positions for unskilled labor available, simply to save money. Since there are less positions available you're also competing against a larger number of people. Now we have a situation where there are less positions available and more people competing for them, and you think it's hard to find a job now?

 

[Skull Pilot]

It is not a poblem when employers are mandated to pay a minimum wage that is suppose to provide or equate to a minimal standard. That is a living wage.




Why is it so unreasonable to require all employers insure that people can make more working than they can drawing welfare?

The government sets welfare standards not private employers. Your question should be,"Why does the government pay people not to work?"

Why should the burden be left on everyone for those employers who do not pay their employees a standard by which they can live?

Employers pay what the market demands it pay for labor. An entry level position is just that. Every job is a ladder and the first rung is entry level, if you want to live on that rung so be it. If you want to climb the ladder, make yourself worth more to your employer.

Tell me why it is that we have welfare and assistance in this country?

Because civilized people understand that there are those who truly cannot take care of themselves. The problem is that too many people are on the dole who shouldn't be and we don't have the will to force those people to work for their welfare.

Heck why do we have any social programs in this country?

see above

Why did people come to this country on boats?

Because as fucked up as America is, it is still the best country in the world to find opportunity. But if we stay on the path we are on, it won't be for much longer.

What are we doing every election season in this country?

Those that keep voting for the same pols that fucked them over again and again are doing absolutely nothing. That's the problem

Why would anyone person on the face of this earth think for one moment that they are better than another?

Ah there it is. People who are for personal responsibility and who dare to say that everyone is where they are because of their own choices somehow think they are better than everyone else right?

Personally, I do not think anyone is better than anyone else. That some are more successful is nothing but a function of the choices a person makes and more importantly the actions a person takes.

Why is it that you act like such an ignorant asshole Bern?


If you can fully and completely in all truth and honesty answer all of those questions to my satisfaction Bern I may consider answering you with a full and digestable answer. If not I have the option to just ignore you. That is called freedom of choice.

No one here has to answer a question to your satisfaction. Either make your case with arguments and examples to prove someone wrong or shut the fuck up.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And just to add even more, I would also guess that prices would drastically rise on just about everything. Which means consumers would then have less to spend on other things, which means that businesses would then begin going of business, which then floods the market with even more people competing for an ever decreasing number of jobs.

 

[Care4all]

The thing is though, what i made as minimum wage in the 70's bought 30% more in the market place than the minimum wage now will buy....

Why should me as a kid, have been able to buy more with my minimum wage than a child today making minimum wage....? I don't believe this is fair, and this is what has happened, i saw it on some chart about a year ago when they were discussing raising the minimum wage...even if it had, it still would not have been a "living wage" for many in the high cost of living areas, but they still should be able to buy with their minimum wage dollar, what i was able to buy with my minimum wage dollar back in the mid to late 70's, again, imo.

the minimum wage did not keep up with the cost of living....where as our congressmen and senators and all other government workers with out tax dollars, get an automatic, cost of living raise, each year needed....?

Care

 

[RodISHI]

Let me ask you this Rod. When I was younger my first real job was at a movie theater, I worked the concession stand. I served popcorn, candy, and pop to the movie patrons. It took no skills other than being able to push the buttons to open the register, and no thinking other than being able to do simple math. I earned minimum wage. Does a job like that really deserve $12/hour and benefits? What do you think would have happened had my co-workers and I made $12/hour and benefits for such an easy job?

Here's my guess. Many of us would have been laid off or not hired in the first place. It would have been difficult to find another job because if all the unskilled labor jobs are paying $12/hour with benefits there are going to be less positions for unskilled labor available, simply to save money. Since there are less positions available you're also competing against a larger number of people. Now we have a situation where there are less positions available and more people competing for them, and you think it's hard to find a job now?

What year was that? What was the minimum wage then?


You are making a quess and being very presumptious.

Employers are hiring skilled laborers at $12.00 and less an hour now. I know this for a fact. You are saying in your presumptious statement that it would be $12.00 plus benefits. Yet you did not say tht first job paid a wage plus benefits.

If in fact Kevin you were a supporter of small buisness enterprise you would not be posting such a post.

Just working for a corporation does not cut it when the corporates have ran so many small businesses out of business. I think sealy coined the phrase, "divide and conquer". That is what corporate America has brought to this nation. A bunch of greedy corporates that really only wish to line their own pockets. They have taken over by intrigue the entire nation and both political parties are to blame for this shame that they have perpetrated on the American people. Even those who had big money went along with it due to their own greed. The middleclass were never more than a step away from poverty and yet they did not see it coming as they all bought into the lie.


I won't be posting any more replies to this thread today. Our last bank now is the very proud owner of the house we have lived in here for more than a year. We are packing today.

 

[Care4all]

And just to add even more, I would also guess that prices would drastically rise on just about everything. Which means consumers would then have less to spend on other things, which means that businesses would then begin going of business, which then floods the market with even more people competing for an ever decreasing number of jobs.

prices don't go up, with minimum wage hikes, this has been tracked and calculated from all other minimum wage hikes, nor does overall unemployment go up on the whole, if there is a minimum wage hike....there are valid statistics out there, showing this....

I used to think as you, but it turns out we are only talking about 2 million people on minimum wage and 6 million in total that would be affected by it because they are close to minimum wage.....

Often, they are not the only employees a company has, companies have secretaries, administrative assistants, and comptrollers and accountants and management positions, and chefs and cooks with some, and human resource positions etc that are not affected with a minimum wage hike....so really, as a portion of a company's payroll, the minimum wage hike is easily accomodated without having to raise their prices....they can find other areas of waste within their business to cut, to help pay for it...or ways to increase each employee's productivity to pay for it, or generating more sales to pay for it....

i can see how it might hurt a small business that was sitting on the edge of failure or success... more than a medium or bigger business...but ON THE WHOLE, a forced minimum wage hike does NOT raise the cost of Living (for the other 154 million people not on minimum wage) due to it, nor does it cause unemployment to go up....it hasn't, stats show this....

What I don't know....is how did the illegals fit in to this picture???

care

 

[Bern80]

Americans, ALL OF AMERICANS, have one of the HIGHEST Productivity rates in the ENTIRE WORLD.....

Americans are not lazy, we work harder than the rest of the westernized world....longer hours, less vacation time, less Holiday pay, and less sicktime than any other nation....

There is big difference between working long hours and working hard. Again this goes back to what creates a stronger society. It comes from people challenging themselves, pushing themselves to reach the goals they want. I said before the whole 'American's work their asses of' schtick is pretty old. You honestly want to sit there and tell me that you and your friends jobs challenge them day in a day out? THAT is what I mean.

I don't think you are right on your opinion Bern, on American workers..... and are duely being unfair in your judgement of them....just look at the figures compared to all other westernized nations....we Americans work harder than the rest of the bunch and produce more per person....

I am well aware that as a nation we work more. That does not mean we work harder.

Everyone wants to do well ON THEIR OWN....it is a natural instinct in my opinion and you are confusing this with the bitching taking place regarding the UNFAIR PLAYING FIELD that has been put in to place by our government, that benefits the ones who "donate" to them....imho.

Care

If that natural instinct were to work hard are country should look much different. Look at how are society has evolved over the last quarter century. It is evolvef toward greater and greater convenience. That tell me people are wanting things to be easier to accomplish the same thing. When the convenience or ease is there that's what people will do. THAT'S what history shows care. And that is what Ms. RodISHI's proposal feeds into. The same outcome (a wage one can live on) is achievable with less effort on your part because government has mandated that all business do it. Now instead haveing to complete college to attain most jobs with a living wage, you don't even have to complete high school.

 

[Care4all]

There is big difference between working long hours and working hard. Again this goes back to what creates a stronger society. It comes from people challenging themselves, pushing themselves to reach the goals they want. I said before the whole 'American's work their asses of' schtick is pretty old. You honestly want to sit there and tell me that you and your friends jobs challenge them day in a day out? THAT is what I mean.

our productivity is higher than other westernized nation, this does mean we are more efficient and work harder than other individuals in other westernized nations...

in fact, we have been working even harder and producing more per individual, the last 5 years.........huge improvements in productivity in the usa!!!

 

[Care4all]

ok, true we are not doing as much physical work to generate money, but this is how the usa has evolved, due to manufacturing being shipped overseas, and immigrants and the pay they take, instead of citizens doing the cotton picking, and our movement as a country, in to information technology....computers.

a waitress today, works as hard as a waitress of yesterday, a plummer, an electrician, a sales clerk, a receptionist, ALL working just as hard or harder than yesteryear...

the white collar worker, may not be physically....but mentally, we take in alot more than yesteryear....we are bombarded with instant emails and reports that took days to come up with in the past and they come at us like machine gun fire, today....

yesteryear, i had my secretary type a memo/directive, me proof read it, and she put it in an envelope with a stamp, and sent it snail mail to who i wanted it to go to....things were slower, you had time to think and plan....your business....today, it's just wild!!!

i heard on a program on the history channel, that our knowledge used to double every 20 years....

at the present time, they said we are doubling our knowledge every 2.5 years!

(i don't know how they even calculated this, but if true....our minds are gonna explode soon, imho!!!!!)

care

 

[Bern80]

It is not a poblem when employers are mandated to pay a minimum wage that is suppose to provide or equate to a minimal standard. That is a living wage.

So Ms. RobISHI's solution to most problems is that instead individuals overcoming their problems someone else should just fix it for them. We've got that. here is a short of list of likely consequences from your proposal. Please explain why they will NOT occur.

Unemployment will go up.

Many businesses, especially small businesses will fail.

The rate of high school rate will fall, because a living wage job is a viable alternative.

Prices on everything will increase.


You say you understand economics. Put up or shut up time, sweety.

Why is it so unreasonable to require all employers insure that people can make more working than they can drawing welfare?

Because of the ramifications of doing so and the morality behind it. First not everyone requires a living wage job. Secondly, the ramifications it would have on our economy which would be mostly negative (see above list). From a purely idological standpoint, I belive human behavior is taught through feedback. Most all human actions are incentive based. We do certain things habitually because of the positive feedback attained from it. We don't do or continue to do certain things that have yielded negative consuequences.

When you lower the standard of effort that is required on YOUR part to attain a standard of living, then most people are going to put forth less effort than what was previously required to attain the same level. That is what human nature has shown to be true time and time again. People with push themselves less hard in all areas, intellectually, physically, etc. We become stronger by overcoming challenges and adversity. Challenges like getting through college, or working harde to earn extra pay, or things in our own lives like overcoming grave health problems.

Why should the burden be left on everyone for those employers who do not pay their employees a standard by which they can live?

Because that is not a shared goal of a business. Their goal is the growth of the business. A business is no different than an individual in that respect. Just as your income must exceed your basic expenses to survive, so must a businesses. Just as you have the responsibility to yourself first, the business has a responsibility to itself first. The overall goal is that same for you and the business. So why shoudl the business be responsible for both while you are responsible for none?

Tell me why it is that we have welfare and assistance in this country?

Transitional unemployment, those truly unable to help themselve, to name a couple. Some temporary assistance (which I have no problem with) until YOU put forth effort to render it unneccessary.

Heck why do we have any social programs in this country?

Again to help people that are unable to help themselves.

Why did people come to this country on boats?

To be free.

What are we doing every election season in this country?

Voting for leaders that exemplify our ideals and make policy accordingly.

Why would anyone person on the face of this earth think for one moment that they are better than another?

Because the harsh truth is, some are. Some people are better people than others. Some people are sociopaths some are almost saintly. Some people are incredibly motivated some are lazy as fuck.

Why is it that you act like such an ignorant asshole Bern?

What am I ignorant of? That people require x amount of money to meet their basic needs? I get that. The question is who's duty is it to provide that for you? Yours or someone elses?

If you can fully and completely in all truth and honesty answer all of those questions to my satisfaction Bern I may consider answering you with a full and digestable answer. If not I have the option to just ignore you. That is called freedom of choice.

Despite that I did the above you have little right to request it seeing as you have not extended the same courtesy. I have asked you several questions multiple times with either no answer or more rheotrical questions in return. You can start with the very top.

 

[Bern80]

ok, true we are not doing as much physical work to generate money, but this is how the usa has evolved, due to manufacturing being shipped overseas, and immigrants and the pay they take, instead of citizens doing the cotton picking, and our movement as a country, in to information technology....computers.

a waitress today, works as hard as a waitress of yesterday, a plummer, an electrician, a sales clerk, a receptionist, ALL working just as hard or harder than yesteryear...

the white collar worker, may not be physically....but mentally, we take in alot more than yesteryear....we are bombarded with instant emails and reports that took days to come up with in the past and they come at us like machine gun fire, today....

yesteryear, i had my secretary type a memo/directive, me proof read it, and she put it in an envelope with a stamp, and sent it snail mail to who i wanted it to go to....things were slower, you had time to think and plan....your business....today, it's just wild!!!

i heard on a program on the history channel, that our knowledge used to double every 20 years....

at the present time, they said we are doubling our knowledge every 2.5 years!

(i don't know how they even calculated this, but if true....our minds are gonna explode soon, imho!!!!!)

care

All true. At least god I hope so. I hope we are smarter, stronger than we were in the past and that we are adapting to technology. So I'll give you all of that. But we are also probably paid the best as well and overall our jobs provided the best benefits in the wester world. We can debate whether or not it has kept up with inflation, but I think that much is true.

We can debate how hard we work. Whether the jobs most of us have are truly challenging, the level of effort we will put in to reach goals, etc. My overall point is that it is not in societies best interest for government to provide incentives to people to challenge themselves less. I don't think there can be any denying that is what raising the minimum wage to a cost of living wage would do.