CDZ We Bet On The Wrong Horse Again

[tinydancer]

Maybe the Iraqi's are not willing to fight for the government the US has put in place in their country.

It's the ROE put in place. They won't let Shias fight in Sunni regions. How fucking stupid is this?

When you have an asshole administration in the middle of a war to battle ISIS actually worried about "sectarian" violence well ruh roh you might as well just give up now.

On the bright side, Shia militias are going "fuck you" and are ready to fight ISIS.

 

[Mac1958]

The United States of America can bring it's might to bear, we can pour in billions of dollars, men, training, and equipment, we can provide our allies with all the tools of war. Yet none of that matters when people won't stand and fight for themselves.

It's our own fault for assuming too much. Perhaps we'd all be better off if we stopped meddling in the affairs of other sovereign countries.

I wonder why we haven't learned our lesson yet. Look at what this has cost us.

.

Well what do you think Egypt, Libya and Syria have cost you with Obama trying to install the MB in said countries?

Compared to what our wars there have cost us?

Trillions of dollars, thousands of young American lives, thousands more young American minds & limbs, a completely destabilized region, an emboldened Iran?

Little.

.

Mac you had no option after 9/11. Let's get back to the reality of it all.

We're you just to sit there and go "hey no problem" terrorize us all you want. Blow up anything you want in America because you have a hard on for us?

Iraq is "iffy" in twenty twenty hindsight ( I personally still believe you had to take out Saddam's true WMD his crazy sons who would inherit the country) but you had no option but to unload in Afghanistan.

No option at all. You had to smoke the "bad guys". As to destabilizing the region take a look at 1600 for believing in regime change to take out Mubarak, Gaddafi and still trying to take out Assad.

Well, I won't bore you with the whole, long story, but after 9/11 I was ready to turn the entire fucking Middle East into a fucking parking lot. Maybe condos.

But once I calmed down a bit I did what I usually do, I challenged myself to carefully consider the opposite of what I thought, and finally reached the conclusion that the negatives (we knew and know what they are) and the potential negatives outweighed the positives (we knew and know what they are). And frankly, I underestimated the negatives by quite a bit.

I understand your points. What I argued for in Afghanistan was essentially what was done to us: Targeted, individual, specific attacks on key targets, not invasion, occupation and (holy shit) nation-building. On Iraq, I was against that from Day One, knowing what a mess Afghanistan still was, knowing that it was a sovereign country that had not attacked us.

Again, I get your points. I just don't think this has been worth it, not by miles.

.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Betting that Obama would back the USA instead of Jihad was a losing bet

You guys are just silly, not even capable of an actual adult discussion.

Obama switched sides. We had Ramadi secured, at great cost and Obama decided to turn it over to ISIS and Al Qaeda

It must be very liberating to have such an uncomplicated view of the world.

We had Al Qaeda defeat in Al Anbar, then Obama decided to desert our friends and allies, leaving a vacuum to let ISIS and AQ back it. The only question is, is Obama stupid or working with AQ?

The good folks of the Bush Administration agreed with you. They thought we should occupy Iraq indefinitely.

They knew how to suppress AQ and they did it. Why did Obama take the pressure off if AQ? The bad guys have RPGs and mortars, the Iraqi citizens, not so much. It takes 15 years before the us army will give a commander his own division. That's the level of training we require, that's at least what we should have had in Iraq.

The worst part is how the USA now looks unreliable and undependable, run by a pathological lair and possible Jihad supporter. That's the worst of it

 

[tinydancer]

The United States of America can bring it's might to bear, we can pour in billions of dollars, men, training, and equipment, we can provide our allies with all the tools of war. Yet none of that matters when people won't stand and fight for themselves.

It's our own fault for assuming too much. Perhaps we'd all be better off if we stopped meddling in the affairs of other sovereign countries.

I wonder why we haven't learned our lesson yet. Look at what this has cost us.

.

Well what do you think Egypt, Libya and Syria have cost you with Obama trying to install the MB in said countries?

Compared to what our wars there have cost us?

Trillions of dollars, thousands of young American lives, thousands more young American minds & limbs, a completely destabilized region, an emboldened Iran?

Little.

.

Mac you had no option after 9/11. Let's get back to the reality of it all.

We're you just to sit there and go "hey no problem" terrorize us all you want. Blow up anything you want in America because you have a hard on for us?

Iraq is "iffy" in twenty twenty hindsight ( I personally still believe you had to take out Saddam's true WMD his crazy sons who would inherit the country) but you had no option but to unload in Afghanistan.

No option at all. You had to smoke the "bad guys". As to destabilizing the region take a look at 1600 for believing in regime change to take out Mubarak, Gaddafi and still trying to take out Assad.

Well, I won't bore you with the whole, long story, but after 9/11 I was ready to turn the entire fucking Middle East into a fucking parking lot. Maybe condos.

But once I calmed down a bit I did what I usually do, I challenged myself to carefully consider the opposite of what I thought, and finally reached the conclusion that the negatives (we knew and know what they are) and the potential negatives outweighed the positives (we knew and know what they are). And frankly, I underestimated the negatives by quite a bit.

I understand your points. What I argued for in Afghanistan was essentially what was done to us: Targeted, individual, specific attacks on key targets, not invasion, occupation and (holy shit) nation-building. On Iraq, I was against that from Day One, knowing what a mess Afghanistan still was, knowing that it was a sovereign country that had not attacked us.

Again, I get your points. I just don't think this has been worth it, not by miles.

.

Mac I've been involved in fighting for women's rights and human rights in Afghanistan before most even knew who the hell the Taliban were. Two decades of fighting. Some wins along the way.

I was so into all our countries going in, kicking the Taliban's ass and dragging the wilma, fred, barney, betty and mohammed flinstones out of their caves and into our world for peace love dove equality and harmony.

Silly fucking me. Breaks my heart. But how do you change such a primitive world with such barbaric practices? You can't. I admit defeat. I admit I was wrong to even think we could make a difference.

I'll still try to fight battles for human rights and decency but I know I'm going to lose more that I will win.

But I'm with you not wanting to see any more of our good men and women's blood shed. Not worth it. Not one more drop of blood.

 

[tinydancer]

You guys are just silly, not even capable of an actual adult discussion.

Obama switched sides. We had Ramadi secured, at great cost and Obama decided to turn it over to ISIS and Al Qaeda

It must be very liberating to have such an uncomplicated view of the world.

We had Al Qaeda defeat in Al Anbar, then Obama decided to desert our friends and allies, leaving a vacuum to let ISIS and AQ back it. The only question is, is Obama stupid or working with AQ?

The good folks of the Bush Administration agreed with you. They thought we should occupy Iraq indefinitely.

They knew how to suppress AQ and they did it. Why did Obama take the pressure off if AQ? The bad guys have RPGs and mortars, the Iraqi citizens, not so much. It takes 15 years before the us army will give a commander his own division. That's the level of training we require, that's at least what we should have had in Iraq.

The worst part is how the USA now looks unreliable and undependable, run by a pathological lair and possible Jihad supporter. That's the worst of it

CF one can't even begin to list 1600's fuck ups over Iraq and ISIS. It's unreal.

Some days I actually want to think that Obama wanted this to happen because then it would be a success for him because surely no one would fuck up this bad.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Obama switched sides. We had Ramadi secured, at great cost and Obama decided to turn it over to ISIS and Al Qaeda

It must be very liberating to have such an uncomplicated view of the world.

We had Al Qaeda defeat in Al Anbar, then Obama decided to desert our friends and allies, leaving a vacuum to let ISIS and AQ back it. The only question is, is Obama stupid or working with AQ?

The good folks of the Bush Administration agreed with you. They thought we should occupy Iraq indefinitely.

They knew how to suppress AQ and they did it. Why did Obama take the pressure off if AQ? The bad guys have RPGs and mortars, the Iraqi citizens, not so much. It takes 15 years before the us army will give a commander his own division. That's the level of training we require, that's at least what we should have had in Iraq.

The worst part is how the USA now looks unreliable and undependable, run by a pathological lair and possible Jihad supporter. That's the worst of it

CF one can't even begin to list 1600's fuck ups over Iraq and ISIS. It's unreal.

Some days I actually want to think that Obama wanted this to happen because then it would be a success for him because surely no one would fuck up this bad.

It comes down to Obama either being very stupid or supporting Jihad.

I like my analogy of the NYC Mayor disbanding the Police Force declaring Victory on Crime after a murder free week, it's precisely what Obama did in Iraq

 

[Dot Com]

yep 10 yrs and $25 BILLION in taxpayer $$$ spent on training & equipping. Repubs should think things through before embarking on these "foreign adventures"

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Obama damaged both the Middle East and the Untied States reputation

 

[Dot Com]

It must be very liberating to have such an uncomplicated view of the world.

We had Al Qaeda defeat in Al Anbar, then Obama decided to desert our friends and allies, leaving a vacuum to let ISIS and AQ back it. The only question is, is Obama stupid or working with AQ?

The good folks of the Bush Administration agreed with you. They thought we should occupy Iraq indefinitely.

They knew how to suppress AQ and they did it. Why did Obama take the pressure off if AQ? The bad guys have RPGs and mortars, the Iraqi citizens, not so much. It takes 15 years before the us army will give a commander his own division. That's the level of training we require, that's at least what we should have had in Iraq.

The worst part is how the USA now looks unreliable and undependable, run by a pathological lair and possible Jihad supporter. That's the worst of it

CF one can't even begin to list 1600's fuck ups over Iraq and ISIS. It's unreal.

Some days I actually want to think that Obama wanted this to happen because then it would be a success for him because surely no one would fuck up this bad.

It comes down to Obama either being very stupid or supporting Jihad.

I like my analogy of the NYC Mayor disbanding the Police Force declaring Victory on Crime after a murder free week, it's precisely what Obama did in Iraq

how many years did you serve in Iraq Frank? Whose kids do you want to be on endless deployment using borrowed taxpayer $$$ (borrowed from the Chinese I might add)

Ever hear the phrase "throwing good money after bad"? Thats what the endless occupation of the sandbox was doing.

 

[Dot Com]

Obama damaged both the Middle East and the Untied States reputation

lol. You're funny The President got our kids out of that circular firing squad Frankie on his Repub predecessor's timeline.

why do you lie?.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Obama damaged both the Middle East and the Untied States reputation

lol. You're funny The President got our kids out of that circular firing squad Frankie on his Repub predecessor's timeline.

why do you lie?.

No, your President threw again the peace and stability bought at much cost in Iraq.

I would post the Battle of Ramadi again, where they declared "AQ is defeated in Al Anbar" but it won't make a difference because you worship Obama as a deity

 

[Dot Com]

Obama damaged both the Middle East and the Untied States reputation

lol. You're funny The President got our kids out of that circular firing squad Frankie on his Repub predecessor's timeline.

why do you lie?.

No, your President threw again the peace and stability bought at much cost in Iraq.

I would post the Battle of Ramadi again, where they declared "AQ is defeated in Al Anbar" but it won't make a difference because you worship Obama as a deity

"peace & stability"? At the end of a gun maybe. Your Repub Prez put all of his eggs in the Malaki basket for his entire Presidency and the guy sowed discord among his own people.

You people blew it. You never had a plan for AFTER the two-day "shock & awe ad campaign for weapons manufacturers". The last 10 yrs was a simmering insurgency/religious civil war 24/7 to the tune of $3 TRILLION & 4,500 dead PLUS 10's of 1000's permanently injured & disfigured not to mention suicides and divorce from endless deployments. Worst foreign policy blunder in a generation.

If you can't see that then I can't help you guy.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Obama damaged both the Middle East and the Untied States reputation

lol. You're funny The President got our kids out of that circular firing squad Frankie on his Repub predecessor's timeline.

why do you lie?.

No, your President threw again the peace and stability bought at much cost in Iraq.

I would post the Battle of Ramadi again, where they declared "AQ is defeated in Al Anbar" but it won't make a difference because you worship Obama as a deity

"peace & stability"? At the end of a gun maybe. Your Repub Prez through all of his eggs in the Malaki basket for his entire Presidency and the guy sewed dischord.

You people blew it. You never had a plan for AFTER the two-day "shock & awe ad campaign for weapons manufacturers". The last 10 yrs was a simmering insurgency/religious civil war 24/7. If you can't see that then I can't help you guy.

^ The Iraq Bush turned over to Obama

^ Iraq once Obama turned it over to Al Qaeda and ISIS

 

[Dot Com]

57frank and his purty picktures

Doesn't change the fact that the Repubs who started the worst foreign policy blunder in a generation had no idea what they were getting this great nation into. The Chinese & Russians praise the last Repub Prez, no doubt for keeping us tied up in that circular shooting gallery for the last 10+ years until our two-term Democratic President rightly pulled the plug on that hugely expensive (in lives and treasure) quagmire.

BTW- any Repubs volunteer to have their taxes raised to pay for that endless war?

 

[RKMBrown]

57frank and his purty picktures

Doesn't change the fact that the Repubs who started the worst foreign policy blunder in a generation had no idea what they were getting this great nation into. The Chinese & Russians praise the last Repub Prez, no doubt for keeping us tied up in that circular shooting gallery for the last 10+ years until our two-term Democratic President rightly pulled the plug on that hugely expensive (in lives and treasure) quagmire.

BTW- any Repubs volunteer to have their taxes raised to pay for that endless war? b

^blind partisan

 

[Dot Com]

Repubs- blaming the fire fighter, in this case our proud, two-term, Democratic President, for putting out their fire. You can't make this stuff up

vietraq was an colossal blunder/optional war that kept this nation preoccupied/pinned-down for 10+ yrs while the ruskies & Chinese used their resources to strengthen themselves.

Thanks Repubs & their voters..... NOT!!!

 

[Dot Com]

Bush II bet on Malaki & here we are $3 TRILLION in BORROWED taxpayer $$$ & 4,500+ servicemen deaths later.

 

[Liminal]

You guys are just silly, not even capable of an actual adult discussion.

Obama switched sides. We had Ramadi secured, at great cost and Obama decided to turn it over to ISIS and Al Qaeda

It must be very liberating to have such an uncomplicated view of the world.

We had Al Qaeda defeat in Al Anbar, then Obama decided to desert our friends and allies, leaving a vacuum to let ISIS and AQ back it. The only question is, is Obama stupid or working with AQ?

The good folks of the Bush Administration agreed with you. They thought we should occupy Iraq indefinitely.

They knew how to suppress AQ and they did it. Why did Obama take the pressure off if AQ? The bad guys have RPGs and mortars, the Iraqi citizens, not so much. It takes 15 years before the us army will give a commander his own division. That's the level of training we require, that's at least what we should have had in Iraq.

The worst part is how the USA now looks unreliable and undependable, run by a pathological lair and possible Jihad supporter. That's the worst of it

You obviously don't know much about building an army. It may only take fifteen years to train a division commander, but it takes a lot longer to change a culture. What about unit pride, history and esprit de corps? An army need a lot more than a few years of training to become an effective force. And when you have an army that supports ethnic and religious conflict, you don't really have a national army. The Iraq Army is just another Shiite militia.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Obama switched sides. We had Ramadi secured, at great cost and Obama decided to turn it over to ISIS and Al Qaeda

It must be very liberating to have such an uncomplicated view of the world.

We had Al Qaeda defeat in Al Anbar, then Obama decided to desert our friends and allies, leaving a vacuum to let ISIS and AQ back it. The only question is, is Obama stupid or working with AQ?

The good folks of the Bush Administration agreed with you. They thought we should occupy Iraq indefinitely.

They knew how to suppress AQ and they did it. Why did Obama take the pressure off if AQ? The bad guys have RPGs and mortars, the Iraqi citizens, not so much. It takes 15 years before the us army will give a commander his own division. That's the level of training we require, that's at least what we should have had in Iraq.

The worst part is how the USA now looks unreliable and undependable, run by a pathological lair and possible Jihad supporter. That's the worst of it

You obviously don't know much about building an army. It may only take fifteen years to train a division commander, but it takes a lot longer to change a culture. What about unit pride, history and esprit de corps? An army need a lot more than a few years of training to become an effective force. And when you have an army that supports ethnic and religious conflict, you don't really have a national army. The Iraq Army is just another Shiite militia.

OMFG!!! That's my EXACT POINT!!!!

Thank you!

You walked right into it!!

We were off to a good start with the ISF, until Obama pulled the plug

 

[Liminal]

It must be very liberating to have such an uncomplicated view of the world.

We had Al Qaeda defeat in Al Anbar, then Obama decided to desert our friends and allies, leaving a vacuum to let ISIS and AQ back it. The only question is, is Obama stupid or working with AQ?

The good folks of the Bush Administration agreed with you. They thought we should occupy Iraq indefinitely.

They knew how to suppress AQ and they did it. Why did Obama take the pressure off if AQ? The bad guys have RPGs and mortars, the Iraqi citizens, not so much. It takes 15 years before the us army will give a commander his own division. That's the level of training we require, that's at least what we should have had in Iraq.

The worst part is how the USA now looks unreliable and undependable, run by a pathological lair and possible Jihad supporter. That's the worst of it

You obviously don't know much about building an army. It may only take fifteen years to train a division commander, but it takes a lot longer to change a culture. What about unit pride, history and esprit de corps? An army need a lot more than a few years of training to become an effective force. And when you have an army that supports ethnic and religious conflict, you don't really have a national army. The Iraq Army is just another Shiite militia.

OMFG!!! That's my EXACT POINT!!!!

Thank you!

You walked right into it!!

We were off to a good start with the ISF, until Obama pulled the plug

We were never off to a good start in Iraq, and we never will be.