We Are Witnesses to the Islamic Reformation

[PoliticalChic]

One after another, Middle East Arab nations are embroiled in protests
and riots pressing traditional leaders, kings and dictators...

Both news coverage, and a re-reading of Paul Berman's "Terror and Liberalism," offer the following explanation.

1. Albert Camus, in ‘The Rebel,’ attempted to find the traits in modern civilization that lead to totalitarianism, and its horrors. Tariq Ramadan, philosopher of Islamism, (“Islam, the West and the Challenge of Modernity&#8221 questions whether ‘civilization’ applies universally, or if the dangers of totalitarianism are unique to the West, and have nothing to do with the Muslim world. Ramadan claims that the mentality and emotions of the Muslim world are not only different form, but are incomprehensible to the Western mind.

a. Tariq Ramadan was Swiss-born, and is an Oxford professor. Ramadan’s father was a militant of the Muslim Brotherhood, and his grandfather, Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Brotherhood.

2. The starting point for Camus is an innate impulse to rebel. For Ramadan, this particular impulse, the urge to rebel, is the point where Western civilization and Islam diverge! In Western religious tradition, there is a place for skepticism and doubt, and these are elements of faith that prove the authenticity of one’s belief in God.

a. In the Old testament, Abraham is instructed to sacrifice his son, Isaac. He doubts the instruction, an, at first, struggles to resist it. The doubt and the struggle to bridge the gap between same and his obligation to God testify to the sincerity of his belief.

3. In Ramadan’s view, the impulse to rebel in Western culture follows directly from the esteem that is accorded to skepticism and doubt. When one follows that urge one step further, we have full-scale rebellion!

a. Muslim tradition does not have those traits. In Islam, there is no impulse to rebel. The story of Abraham and Isaac, as recounted in the Koran, there is no emphasis on skepticism and resistance: Abraham simply hears the instruction, and gets ready to comply. No temptation to rebel: In Islam, submission is all. Thus the unification of Islamic society. Submission is the road to social justice.

b. The message of the Saudi King: ""Mubarak and King Abdullah are not just allies, they are close friends, and the king is not about to see his friend cast aside and humiliated," a senior source in the Saudi capital told The Times."http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/back-off-hosni-mubarak-saudi-king-abdullah-warns-barack-obama/story-e6frg6so-1226003947985

4. If Tariq Ramadan is correct, and Muslim tradition does not have those traits, and if in Islam, there is no impulse to rebel...then we are witnessing an alteration in the culture- not in any one nation- but across the Middle East- that may bring bring Islamic culture more in line with modernity, with the Western societies with which they must compete and cooperate.

a. Once again, the tamping down of a natural human urge, to be responsible for one's path in life, for self-determination, will be stronger than submission of any sort.

 

[waltky]

Young people mad as hell an' dey not gonna take it anymore...

Anti-Government Protests Spread Across Middle East, North Africa
February 18, 2011 - Demonstrations against long-serving governments continue to roil the Middle East and North Africa Friday from Libya eastward to Bahrain.

In Libya, more protests as well as funerals for those killed in recent unrest were held after midday prayers, and witnesses said demonstrators gathered in the port city Benghazi, a bastion of resentment against the government. Human Rights Watch said Friday that 24 people have been killed in recent violence in Libya, many of them in Benghazi. Graphic videos posted on the Internet have shown shootings described as being inflicted by armed forces against protesters. Libyan media are tightly controlled, and the contents of the amateur videos could not be independently confirmed. Another video purports to show protesters in Tobruk cheering as crowds knock down a government statue.

Libya

In Tripoli, so far largely untouched by the turmoil, Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has been at the center of pro-government demonstrations - an apparent attempt to place himself within the context of change demanded in nations across the region. He recently doubled the salaries of state employees and released 110 people accused of being Islamic militants. But from the perspective of having the world's longest-serving leader, protesters view his gestures as missing the point. The oil-rich nation has a more equitable standard of living than neighboring countries, but it is Mr. Ghadafi's crushing, often arbitrary, political system in place more than 41 years that protesters want changed. Protests began Tuesday, with Thursday's demonstrations called a "Day of Rage," an echo of protests in Egypt and Tunisia that ended with their leaders stepping down.

Yemen

In Yemen, anti-government rallies were being held for an eighth day Friday. Stephen Steinbeiser, director of the American Institute for Yemeni Studies in the capital, Sana'a, says the demonstrators show no signs of stopping. "It certainly hasn't gotten to the point that Cairo was at a couple of weeks ago, where everything has come to a standstill," said Steinbeiser. "But it also doesn't seem that it is unfolding in the same way that Cairo unfolded, in the sense of a kind of peaceful - relatively peaceful - positive, people-led movement. And that's a bit disconcerting." Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh is accused by protesters of running a repressive regime. But his authority is far from absolute. Tribal allegiances, a bid for independence in the south, a sporadic revolt in the north and al Qaida forces in the east complicate any demands for change in the Arab world's poorest nation.

Source

See also:

Protests Flare Across Middle East
Saturday, February 19th, 2011 : Anti-government protests that have swept the Arab world continued Friday in several countries across the Middle East and North Africa, as thousands rallied for political change.

In Bahrain, security forces fired shots as mourners leaving a funeral tried to return to a central square in the capital, in defiance of a government ban on protests. Witnesses say dozens of people were wounded in the crackdown. The country's senior Shi'ite cleric has described the police raid on demonstrators as a “massacre.”

In Yemen, at least one person has been killed and 28 wounded after a car passenger threw a grenade at a crowd of anti-government demonstrators in the southwestern city of Taiz. The attack took place as demonstrators took part in one of the “day of rage” rallies that are underway across the country. Some witnesses blamed the government for the attack.

In Jordan, protests turned violent, as government supporters clashed with demonstrators calling for political reforms. There are reports that at least eight people were injured when government supporters attacked the demonstrators with batons.

In Iran, thousands of government supporters called for the execution of opposition leaders Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi during prayer services in Tehran. The call came ahead of a small pro-government rally held in Tehran Friday. Opposition websites have made calls for nationwide rallies Sunday to show support for Mousavi and Karroubi and to mourn the deaths of two people who died in Monday's anti-government protests.

In Egypt, the ruling military said it would not allow strikes and protests weakening the country's economy. Tens of thousands of people packed Cairo's Tahrir Square for a day of celebration marking one week since President Hosni Mubarak stepped down. Democracy supporters have been chanting and waving Egyptian flags during festivities which have included music from a military marching band. Though security is tight, the mood has been upbeat.

And in Libya, Human Rights Watch says Libyan security forces killed 24 protesters during Thursday's crackdown on anti-government demonstrations. The U.S.-based rights group, citing witnesses, says security forces shot and killed protesters in an effort to break up “Day of Rage” demonstrations across the country.

Source

 

[PoliticalChic]

Young people mad as hell an' dey not gonna take it anymore...

Anti-Government Protests Spread Across Middle East, North Africa
February 18, 2011 - Demonstrations against long-serving governments continue to roil the Middle East and North Africa Friday from Libya eastward to Bahrain.

In Libya, more protests as well as funerals for those killed in recent unrest were held after midday prayers, and witnesses said demonstrators gathered in the port city Benghazi, a bastion of resentment against the government. Human Rights Watch said Friday that 24 people have been killed in recent violence in Libya, many of them in Benghazi. Graphic videos posted on the Internet have shown shootings described as being inflicted by armed forces against protesters. Libyan media are tightly controlled, and the contents of the amateur videos could not be independently confirmed. Another video purports to show protesters in Tobruk cheering as crowds knock down a government statue.

Libya

In Tripoli, so far largely untouched by the turmoil, Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi has been at the center of pro-government demonstrations - an apparent attempt to place himself within the context of change demanded in nations across the region. He recently doubled the salaries of state employees and released 110 people accused of being Islamic militants. But from the perspective of having the world's longest-serving leader, protesters view his gestures as missing the point. The oil-rich nation has a more equitable standard of living than neighboring countries, but it is Mr. Ghadafi's crushing, often arbitrary, political system in place more than 41 years that protesters want changed. Protests began Tuesday, with Thursday's demonstrations called a "Day of Rage," an echo of protests in Egypt and Tunisia that ended with their leaders stepping down.

Yemen

In Yemen, anti-government rallies were being held for an eighth day Friday. Stephen Steinbeiser, director of the American Institute for Yemeni Studies in the capital, Sana'a, says the demonstrators show no signs of stopping. "It certainly hasn't gotten to the point that Cairo was at a couple of weeks ago, where everything has come to a standstill," said Steinbeiser. "But it also doesn't seem that it is unfolding in the same way that Cairo unfolded, in the sense of a kind of peaceful - relatively peaceful - positive, people-led movement. And that's a bit disconcerting." Yemen's President Ali Abdullah Saleh is accused by protesters of running a repressive regime. But his authority is far from absolute. Tribal allegiances, a bid for independence in the south, a sporadic revolt in the north and al Qaida forces in the east complicate any demands for change in the Arab world's poorest nation.

Source

Welcome to the board.


" "But it also doesn't seem that it is unfolding in the same way that Cairo unfolded, in the sense of a kind of peaceful - relatively peaceful - positive, people-led movement. And that's a bit disconcerting."..."
Interesting comment.

Based on your post, you believe that the unrest is fueled by economic inequities?

Or based on a desire for freedom....

Doesn't it seem to be 'un-Islamic'?

 

[Sallow]

For once..I agree with you..PC. Mark this date down..

 

[PoliticalChic]

for once..i agree with you..pc. Mark this date down..

omg!

 

[Toro]

We may be witnessing history, a seismic shift in the Islamic world.

 

[PoliticalChic]

We may be witnessing history, a seismic shift in the Islamic world.

Wow...in a mere dozen words, you've managed to sumarize the entire OP!

 

[California Girl]

We may be witnessing history, a seismic shift in the Islamic world.

You're right. The concern should be which way that shift is heading.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's only going to be reformation if another despotic theocracy is not established to replace the existing ones.

 

[Sunni Man]

The whole premise of this thread is nonsense.

The protests have nothing to do with Islam.

And doesn't involve any kind of Islamic Reformation.

In none of these countries has Islam been mentioned as a factor for the protests.


The protests in Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, and other places; are the result of the U.S. backing brutal puppet dictators.

And supplying them with massive amounts of money and weapons to suppress their people.

The people are just sick of these Zionist/U.S. friendly rulers being forced on them.

And want to have a say in the political and economic direction of their nations.


If anything, Islam will become a much stronger political force in each of these nations governments.

 

[Ropey]

Reform Islam.

From the inside.

 

[PoliticalChic]

The whole premise of this thread is nonsense.

The protests have nothing to do with Islam.

And doesn't involve any kind of Islamic Reformation.

In none of these countries has Islam been mentioned as a factor for the protests.


The protests in Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, and other places; are the result of the U.S. backing brutal puppet dictators.

And supplying them with massive amounts of money and weapons to suppress their people.

The people are just sick of these Zionist/U.S. friendly rulers being forced on them.

And want to have a say in the political and economic direction of their nations.


If anything, Islam will become a much stronger political force in each of these nations governments.

"The protests have nothing to do with Islam."

Sunni, there is one teensy-weensy tiny point, fact, bit of effluvia- hardly worth mentioning...but

the folks who populate "...Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, and other places;..." are, almost uniformly, Muslims.

Muslims, you might be interested to learn, are folks who practice the faith known as Islam.

Beginning to see the connection?

"The whole premise of this thread is nonsense."
Your disquisition might have some moment if we were discussing events in one Muslim nation, with respect to a particular Muslim leader...but the nations under discussion are not monolithic- outside of the religious persuasion, that is.

If the words of Tariq Ramadan, the foremost Islamic philosopher extant have any truth, i.e., that the 'urge to rebel' is outside the province of those 'submissive' to Islam, to Allah, then we are indeed witnessing a sea change....

My conjecture is neither that these uprisings will necessarily lead to democracy, nor that they will weaken Islam.

On the contrary, bringing Islam more in line with the 21st century will, in my opinion, strengthen same, and make it more likely to survive without the ultimate war and defeat that WW III would bring.

 

[Sunni Man]

My conjecture is neither that these uprisings will necessarily lead to democracy, nor that they will weaken Islam.

I agree with this statement.

 

[Ropey]

"The protests have nothing to do with Islam."

Sunni, there is one teensy-weensy tiny point, fact, bit of effluvia- hardly worth mentioning...but

the folks who populate "...Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, and other places;..." are, almost uniformly, Muslims.

Muslims, you might be interested to learn, are folks who practice the faith known as Islam.

Beginning to see the connection?

This is where the meat of the matter lies. On the ground today.

 

[PoliticalChic]

We may be witnessing history, a seismic shift in the Islamic world.

You're right. The concern should be which way that shift is heading.

Exactly! ...and therein may lie the greatest irony of our lifetimes!

The Western 'urge to rebel', coming out of the French Revolution, mutated quickly into several cults of death and mayhem: communism, fascism, progressivism.

No matter the particular movement, there were two key conditions in all: 1. it was based on a submission to a central authority, the total state, and 2. it was based on the idea of one, instead of many, uniformity rather than variation.

Wouldn't it be astounding, amazing if Arab and Iranian cultures turned in a different direction, an produced the kind of classically liberal society that both they and we once had???

 

[Trajan]

all that glitters is not gold.

the reigning authorities are expert at using region and the wests ( see; the US) helping Israel as a wedge, forcing them away from the fact they live in countries that do not address their own living standard and deeper issues as to lack of manufacturing and a infrastructure that sppt.'s the creation of wealth that creates that higher standard.

 

[Toro]

The whole premise of this thread is nonsense.

The protests have nothing to do with Islam.

And doesn't involve any kind of Islamic Reformation.

In none of these countries has Islam been mentioned as a factor for the protests.


The protests in Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Yemen, and other places; are the result of the U.S. backing brutal puppet dictators.

And supplying them with massive amounts of money and weapons to suppress their people.

The people are just sick of these Zionist/U.S. friendly rulers being forced on them.

And want to have a say in the political and economic direction of their nations.


If anything, Islam will become a much stronger political force in each of these nations governments.

Protests in Iran have nothing to do with US/Zionist anything. The protests in Bahrain are a sectarian affair between Shias and Sunnis.

These demonstrations are a function first of rising food prices and the rulers' inability to deal with these problems but also because of the viral nature of today's media.

 

[Truthmatters]

Good acessment Toro.

I hear the pres of Bahrain is a youngish man who wants more freedoms for his people but his Uncle who runs other parts of the gov actually has more family power than him and is a real pisser.

The uncle is 70+ and hopefully this young man can get some power shift going and help his people.

 

[Sunni Man]

Protests in Iran have nothing to do with US/Zionist anything. .

You are being naive if you really believe that.

 

[rdean]

One after another, Middle East Arab nations are embroiled in protests
and riots pressing traditional leaders, kings and dictators...

Both news coverage, and a re-reading of Paul Berman's "Terror and Liberalism," offer the following explanation.

1. Albert Camus, in ‘The Rebel,’ attempted to find the traits in modern civilization that lead to totalitarianism, and its horrors. Tariq Ramadan, philosopher of Islamism, (“Islam, the West and the Challenge of Modernity”) questions whether ‘civilization’ applies universally, or if the dangers of totalitarianism are unique to the West, and have nothing to do with the Muslim world. Ramadan claims that the mentality and emotions of the Muslim world are not only different form, but are incomprehensible to the Western mind.

a. Tariq Ramadan was Swiss-born, and is an Oxford professor. Ramadan’s father was a militant of the Muslim Brotherhood, and his grandfather, Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Brotherhood.

2. The starting point for Camus is an innate impulse to rebel. For Ramadan, this particular impulse, the urge to rebel, is the point where Western civilization and Islam diverge! In Western religious tradition, there is a place for skepticism and doubt, and these are elements of faith that prove the authenticity of one’s belief in God.

a. In the Old testament, Abraham is instructed to sacrifice his son, Isaac. He doubts the instruction, an, at first, struggles to resist it. The doubt and the struggle to bridge the gap between same and his obligation to God testify to the sincerity of his belief.

3. In Ramadan’s view, the impulse to rebel in Western culture follows directly from the esteem that is accorded to skepticism and doubt. When one follows that urge one step further, we have full-scale rebellion!

a. Muslim tradition does not have those traits. In Islam, there is no impulse to rebel. The story of Abraham and Isaac, as recounted in the Koran, there is no emphasis on skepticism and resistance: Abraham simply hears the instruction, and gets ready to comply. No temptation to rebel: In Islam, submission is all. Thus the unification of Islamic society. Submission is the road to social justice.

b. The message of the Saudi King: ""Mubarak and King Abdullah are not just allies, they are close friends, and the king is not about to see his friend cast aside and humiliated," a senior source in the Saudi capital told The Times."http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/back-off-hosni-mubarak-saudi-king-abdullah-warns-barack-obama/story-e6frg6so-1226003947985

4. If Tariq Ramadan is correct, and Muslim tradition does not have those traits, and if in Islam, there is no impulse to rebel...then we are witnessing an alteration in the culture- not in any one nation- but across the Middle East- that may bring bring Islamic culture more in line with modernity, with the Western societies with which they must compete and cooperate.

a. Once again, the tamping down of a natural human urge, to be responsible for one's path in life, for self-determination, will be stronger than submission of any sort.

In the Old testament, Abraham is instructed to sacrifice his son, Isaac. He doubts the instruction, an, at first, struggles to resist it. The doubt and the struggle to bridge the gap between same and his obligation to God testify to the sincerity of his belief.

This is one of the most sick and perverted of the Bible fables. Gawd played a trick. Let's see if I can make you kill your son. And I could Ha ha ha ha!