Was the reason for independence really taxation without representation?

[gipper]

As with most things, I think we have all been lied to again regarding our history. Time and again I have been told that the reason the Founding Fathers formed their own nation was because of taxation without representation.

However, if so, what of the 26 other grevances listed in the Declaration of Independence?

Taxation without representation is #17, so what gives?

Why have we been lied to all these years and why did they do it?

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence1. He has refused his Assent to Laws,

theridgewoodblog.net

Are you saying D.C. should declare it's independence?

What I'm saying is, the Federal government has become far larger and obtrusive than the British crown from which the Revolution sprung.

I’d take King George over any government we’ve had to endure over the past 50 years.

I can only hope that's hyperbole, because if it isn't, it's the most ignorant thing I've seen ever posted on this board.

Not really. If you understood what’s really going on, you’d agree.

What a buncha bullshitm

I’m guessing you’d agree if Trump were re-elected. Partisans. Ugh.

 

[Crepitus]

As with most things, I think we have all been lied to again regarding our history. Time and again I have been told that the reason the Founding Fathers formed their own nation was because of taxation without representation.

However, if so, what of the 26 other grevances listed in the Declaration of Independence?

Taxation without representation is #17, so what gives?

Why have we been lied to all these years and why did they do it?

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence1. He has refused his Assent to Laws,

theridgewoodblog.net

Are you saying D.C. should declare it's independence?

What I'm saying is, the Federal government has become far larger and obtrusive than the British crown from which the Revolution sprung.

I’d take King George over any government we’ve had to endure over the past 50 years.

I can only hope that's hyperbole, because if it isn't, it's the most ignorant thing I've seen ever posted on this board.

Not really. If you understood what’s really going on, you’d agree.

What a buncha bullshitm

I’m guessing you’d agree if Trump were re-elected. Partisans. Ugh.

Don't project your hatred for my country onto me, please.

 

[gipper]

As with most things, I think we have all been lied to again regarding our history. Time and again I have been told that the reason the Founding Fathers formed their own nation was because of taxation without representation.

However, if so, what of the 26 other grevances listed in the Declaration of Independence?

Taxation without representation is #17, so what gives?

Why have we been lied to all these years and why did they do it?

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence1. He has refused his Assent to Laws,

theridgewoodblog.net

Are you saying D.C. should declare it's independence?

What I'm saying is, the Federal government has become far larger and obtrusive than the British crown from which the Revolution sprung.

I’d take King George over any government we’ve had to endure over the past 50 years.

I can only hope that's hyperbole, because if it isn't, it's the most ignorant thing I've seen ever posted on this board.

Not really. If you understood what’s really going on, you’d agree.

What a buncha bullshitm

I’m guessing you’d agree if Trump were re-elected. Partisans. Ugh.

Don't project your hatred for my country onto me, please.

No hatred here. There?

 

[Pellinore]

As with most things, I think we have all been lied to again regarding our history. Time and again I have been told that the reason the Founding Fathers formed their own nation was because of taxation without representation.

However, if so, what of the 26 other grevances listed in the Declaration of Independence?

Taxation without representation is #17, so what gives?

Why have we been lied to all these years and why did they do it?

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence1. He has refused his Assent to Laws,

theridgewoodblog.net

Are you saying D.C. should declare it's independence?

What I'm saying is, the Federal government has become far larger and obtrusive than the British crown from which the Revolution sprung.

I’d take King George over any government we’ve had to endure over the past 50 years.

I can only hope that's hyperbole, because if it isn't, it's the most ignorant thing I've seen ever posted on this board.

Not really. If you understood what’s really going on, you’d agree.

What a buncha bullshitm

I’m guessing you’d agree if Trump were re-elected. Partisans. Ugh.

We just sat through four years of President Trump, and at no point did I ever come anywhere close to wishing we would go back to a pre-Constitution monarchy.

You're beyond partisan. The farthest right and the farthest left all still choose a free US over subjugation to a foreign autocrat. If you don't, fine; I hear Pyongyang is nice this time of year.

 

[gipper]

As with most things, I think we have all been lied to again regarding our history. Time and again I have been told that the reason the Founding Fathers formed their own nation was because of taxation without representation.

However, if so, what of the 26 other grevances listed in the Declaration of Independence?

Taxation without representation is #17, so what gives?

Why have we been lied to all these years and why did they do it?

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence1. He has refused his Assent to Laws,

theridgewoodblog.net

Are you saying D.C. should declare it's independence?

What I'm saying is, the Federal government has become far larger and obtrusive than the British crown from which the Revolution sprung.

I’d take King George over any government we’ve had to endure over the past 50 years.

I can only hope that's hyperbole, because if it isn't, it's the most ignorant thing I've seen ever posted on this board.

Not really. If you understood what’s really going on, you’d agree.

What a buncha bullshitm

I’m guessing you’d agree if Trump were re-elected. Partisans. Ugh.

We just sat through four years of President Trump, and at no point did I ever come anywhere close to wishing we would go back to a pre-Constitution monarchy.

You're beyond partisan. The farthest right and the farthest left all still choose a free US over subjugation to a foreign autocrat. If you don't, fine; I hear Pyongyang is nice this time of year.

Trump and Biden are fools. They like the rest of our elected officials do the bidding of the ultra rich oligarchy. The people have very little impact or affect on government. The oligarchs also control the MSM, Hollywood, academia, science, etc. The result is the big corporations and the MIC get whatever they want. The American public is the most propagandized nation in the world. The people have little idea of what is really occurring. Millions of Americans suffer in poverty or near poverty, while the 1% live like kings fully protected by government...and you think this acceptable.

 

[Crepitus]

They like the rest of our elected officials do the bidding of the ultra rich oligarchy

Do you really think the ultra rich oligarchy wants their taxes to double?

 

[gipper]

They like the rest of our elected officials do the bidding of the ultra rich oligarchy

Do you really think the ultra rich oligarchy wants their taxes to double?

No.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Yeah, "taxation without representation" was short, easily understood, and infuriating, so it was the best way for the Patriots to get people convinced and involved. Getting into trade inequities and political theory and a lot of terms ending in "-ism" isn't really relatable to the common man.

Ultimately, the biggest reason was because the Colonists started seeing themselves as Americans (or Virginians, or New Yorkers, or whatever) rather than the British. That led, quite predictably, to resentment over King George and the British treating the Colonists as second-class citizens, which they did, interfering with our God-given right to smuggle by giving breaks to the East India Company, which they also did, and by responding to our righteous tea protestin' with the super-restrictive and unfair Intolerable Acts. So a lot of it was that we didn't like being clamped down on but, yeah, taxing the hell out of us in several waves, ostensibly to make money to pay for the French and Indian War, didn't go over very well, either.

So the British closed the Port of Boston in 1774, all 13 Colonies got pissed on Massachusetts' behalf, we threw down in '75, adopted the DoI in '76, and here we are.

The crown was denying the colonists their rights as Englishmen. That was the basis of the discontent.

 

[Mushroom]

As with most things, I think we have all been lied to again regarding our history. Time and again I have been told that the reason the Founding Fathers formed their own nation was because of taxation without representation.

However, if so, what of the 26 other grevances listed in the Declaration of Independence?

Remember, that was not the purpose of the Second Continental Congress. It was actually only intending to largely repeat the actions of the First Continental Congress.

That was called in 1774, in order to deal with the Intolerable Acts. And after two months, they drafted the "Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress", and sent them to England. And Resolution stated it quite clearly.

That the foundation of English Liberty, and of all free Government, is a right in the people to participate in their Legislative Council: and as the English Colonists are not represented, and from their local and other circumstances cannot be properly represented in the British Parliament, they are entitled to a free and exclusive power of legislation in their several Provincial Legislatures, where their right of Representation can alone be preserved, in all cases of taxation and internal polity, subject only to the negative of their Sovereign, in such manner as has been heretofore used and accustomed. But, from the necessity of the case, and a regard to the mutual interest of both Countries, we cheerfully consent to the operation of such Acts of the British Parliament, as are, bona fide, restrained to the regulation of our external commerce, for the purpose of securing the commercial advantages of the whole Empire to the mother country, and the commercial benefits of its respective members; excluding every idea of Taxation, internal or external, for raising a revenue on the subjects in America, without their consent.

It is indispensably necessary to good Government, and rendered essential by the English Constitution, that the constituent branches of the Legislature be independent of each other; that, therefore, the exercise of Legislative power in several Colonies, by a Council appointed, during pleasure, by the Crown, is unconstitutional, dangerous, and destructive to the freedom of American Legislation.

All and each of which the aforesaid Deputies, in behalf of themselves and their constituents, do claim, demand, and insist on, as their indubitable rights and liberties; which cannot be legally taken from them, altered or abridged by any power whatever, without their own consent, by their Representatives in their several Provincial Legislatures.

Declaration and Resolves of the First Continental Congress - Wikisource, the free online library

en.wikisource.org

And when the Second Continental Congress was called, originally it was to submit yet another petition to England as the first was ignored. However, by that time fighting had actually broken out, so the intent of the body changed, and the original draft resolution was thrown out, and the Declaration of Independence was written.

Their main issue was not the taxes, but that they had no representation as was mandated under English Law. They had even tried to propose that the Colonies be ruled as England had been done in the past. That they submit to a "Colonial Parliament" what money would be needed to be raised, and that they would implement their own taxes and forward it to England. That was largely how it had been for hundreds of years, and was basically how it was done in England at the time. And the taxes pushed onto the colonies would never have happened in England, because Parliament would have never passed it.

 

[gipper]

Trump and Biden are fools. They like the rest of our elected officials do the bidding of the ultra rich oligarchy. The people have very little impact or affect on government. The oligarchs also control the MSM, Hollywood, academia, science, etc. The result is the big corporations and the MIC get whatever they want. The American public is the most propagandized nation in the world. The people have little idea of what is really occurring. Millions of Americans suffer in poverty or near poverty, while the 1% live like kings fully protected by government...and you think this acceptable.

Great post by me. Thanks for the reminder Stryder50

 

[gipper]

Great post by me. Thanks for the reminder Stryder50

Stryder50

www.usmessageboard.com

You dislike it, but are too chicken to post your opinion. Pussy move.

 

[Cellblock2429]

As with most things, I think we have all been lied to again regarding our history. Time and again I have been told that the reason the Founding Fathers formed their own nation was because of taxation without representation.

However, if so, what of the 26 other grevances listed in the Declaration of Independence?

Taxation without representation is #17, so what gives?

Why have we been lied to all these years and why did they do it?

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence

The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence The List of Grievances from the Declaration of Independence1. He has refused his Assent to Laws,

theridgewoodblog.net

/——-/ They don’t teach much American history like they did when I was a kid. When Ben Franklin went to the UK to negotiate, he was told no to mention taxation without representation because the King would just give the colonies one seat in parliament eliminating our complaint. Of course one seat would be useless and always out voted.

 

[DudleySmith]

Basically the colomials had a mostly free ride for a hundred years or so, then the Crown ran into some financial difficulties. so Parliament looked around and noted it was time for the colonials to pay their share. Of course the assorted smugglers and tax dodgers among the colonial elites would have to pay most of that increase, since they were the only ones who had any wealth to tax, so they fired up their printing presses and made up a lot of dubious sniveling excuses for why they wanted to secede.

They had around 10% of the population on their side, hardly anybody really, but the Crown and Parliament sent over some halfwits with high self-esteem who in a short time turned another 60-70% against the Crown by their obnoxious behaviors. No different than today, the top 10% never want to pay their share of anything, and they pay 'libertarians' to run around making out like it's a matter of bad economics n stuff. Never mind most sectors of the economy are run by two companies splitting most of the market shares, they need tax breaks n cheap labor.

The 'Genius' of the 'Founders' came from their paranoia and extreme distrust of each other, as well as the out-sized influence of Virginia in colonial politics; New England specially, since their 'Elites' were essentially pirates and smugglers like John Hancock. From all this BS haggling and pretentious posturing came the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

 

[Mushroom]

Yeah, "taxation without representation" was short, easily understood, and infuriating, so it was the best way for the Patriots to get people convinced and involved. Getting into trade inequities and political theory and a lot of terms ending in "-ism" isn't really relatable to the common man.

Ultimately, the biggest reason was because the Colonists started seeing themselves as Americans (or Virginians, or New Yorkers, or whatever) rather than the British.

Actually, quite the opposite.

Much of the Revolution came from English Law and English Philosophy. And that the Crown was not obeying the most crucial laws of the nation. Including the Magna Carta, the Bill of Rights, and even William Penn in 1682 drafted the first charter of the Pennsylvania Colony used the phrase "Rights of Englishmen" to remind the colonists that they were indeed Englishmen. And that exact same phrase was found in many of Benjamin Franklin's writings prior to the Revolution breaking out.

And it also actually piggy-backs on another issue that neither the King or Parliament wanted to discuss, and that was extending the peerage system to the Colonies.

Prior to 1774, there had been several petitions to extend the Nobility into the British Colonies. This was also wanted by a great many Americans, as they felt that would finally give them a voice in Parliament. However, the closest thing the Colonies had to a "Representative" was Benjamin Franklin, who spent 18 years in London (1757-1775) trying to act as an Agent among the government.

 

[Mushroom]

They don’t teach much American history like they did when I was a kid. When Ben Franklin went to the UK to negotiate, he was told no to mention taxation without representation because the King would just give the colonies one seat in parliament eliminating our complaint. Of course one seat would be useless and always out voted.

Really? I have never heard of that before. Got a reference?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I’d take King George over any government we’ve had to endure over the past 50 years.

King George III and Joe Biden have a great deal in common.

 

[Mushroom]

Basically the colomials had a mostly free ride for a hundred years or so, then the Crown ran into some financial difficulties.

Actually, from the founding they were taxed.

Almost all of the English Colonies were set up as commercial enterprises. And as such, were expected to make a profit and return part of that to England. The earliest forms was a 5% import duty on all good sent from the Colonies to England. Then by the 1640s taxes were being collected locally in order to pay the Crown officials that were there. But those were not found to be objectionable, as the 5% duty was to repay the investment to found the colony, and the taxes for wages remained in the colonies and they were getting actual services for them.

And by the 1700s, there were more taxes, primarily for roads and ports. Mostly from wealth taxes, but also from poll taxes. And by the 1700s, import and export taxes were a way of life in the colonies. For example, taxes on tobacco was around 12%. And other items ranging from glass and wood to alcohol were also taxed.

However, the difference when the Stamp Act was forced onto them was that this time the money was not for improvements in the colonies, but going directly to England. And not on items they exported, but items they had to import. And there was no way to get around it, everything from legal documents and medicine to newspapers and bank drafts had to have a stamp on it. And more than that, all paper for such had to be purchased from England with the stamp already affixed. Which would have had the dual effect of driving out of business all of the Colonial companies producing paper.

Now this was done it was claimed to pay for the British troops stationed in the Colonies, but the problem was they should have just handled it as had been done in the past. Tell the Colonies that it was their responsibility to cover their expenses, and allow them to raise the money themselves. That had been the way taxes in the Colonies had been done for over a century by that point, and as they were done by local assemblies it was legal under British Law. The forcing of taxes by an assembly where they had no representation however was not, and is what started the problem.

 

[Cellblock2429]

Really? I have never heard of that before. Got a reference?

/——-/ Yes, my reference is Sister Mary Margaret, Blessed Sacrament School, American History class 1964.

 

[Mushroom]

/——-/ Yes, my reference is Sister Mary Margaret, Blessed Sacrament School, American History class 1964.

In other words, you have none.

 

[Cellblock2429]

In other words, you have none.

/———/ It’s something I read in one of the many books on the Revolution. If you’re going to be a dick about it, get your Google fixed and do your own research. Bozo