War crimes by the Bush Administration.

Jake Winker Frogen

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To my mind the Bush Administration made several titanic mistakes.

First they did not articulate the regime change argument as well as they could have, the destabilising effect Saddam had in the entire region, they relied on the WMD argument almost exclusively. (Though I do believe they believed he still had them, because he was behaving like he still had them. He did not even fully cooperate during his "final chance" the UN Blix inspections. And the former Clinton CIA Director told Bush "it is a slam dunk" they will find WMD.)

Second, the removal of Saddam himself went very well, the Iraqi army largely not fighting for him at all, there was no occupational planning or political vision on who would really replace him?

Then they made the most tragic decision of all, and completely disbanded an Iraqi army which was still largely armed as they did not fight at all, even after a large group of officers went to the US occupational authority offering to work for the occupation rather than fight against it.

Hell they did even not secure munitions and explosives at Iraqi military bases which should have been priority number one upon occupation.

Boom, instant insurgency, with other groups, such as Islamic radicals then exploited creating alliances with the no unemployed Iraqi army.


Also I think it was a mistake when it became clear the Shia Sunni divide was so intense, so insanely bloody, that no unified state could really function effectively, that the US did not break off the Kurds.

Progressive, loyal allies and wildly pro American.
 

odanny

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I thought President Bush was very honest, and his librarian wife, First Lady Laura Bush was dynamite to ignorance by inciting literacy at a high level to all American Children.
President Bush stood for strength in American children, not to mention adults, by his daily running through the paths of Washington D.C., from his background of being the owner of a major league competitive sports team. He won awards from Ducks Unlimited for his great love of protecting animals from ground pollution from the petroleum industry and set an example in so doing to the world to clean up its pollution act. He did his best, and I am proud I had the privilege of voting for him twice for President. And I praise him for starting a Presidential Library in his adopted state of Texas where his family lived starting with his second birthday if memory serves me right.
And as far as war crimes are concerned, he prevented Saddam Hussein from murdering millions. God bless President Dubya for all time.
Where on earth do they grow you people?

Jesus H. Christ.
 

beautress

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I thought President Bush was very honest, and his librarian wife, First Lady Laura Bush was dynamite to ignorance by inciting literacy at a high level to all American Children.
President Bush stood for strength in American children, not to mention adults, by his daily running through the paths of Washington D.C., from his background of being the owner of a major league competitive sports team. He won awards from Ducks Unlimited for his great love of protecting animals from ground pollution from the petroleum industry and set an example in so doing to the world to clean up its pollution act. He did his best, and I am proud I had the privilege of voting for him twice for President. And I praise him for starting a Presidential Library in his adopted state of Texas where his family lived starting with his second birthday if memory serves me right.
And as far as war crimes are concerned, he prevented Saddam Hussein from murdering millions. God bless President Dubya for all time.
Where on earth do they grow you people?

Jesus H. Christ.
In a Christian environment in which one does not trust demonic loudmouths, but in the 10 suggestions God provided to Moses, who brought down from the mountain to a people who'd formed a Golden Calf to worship while the prophet was receiving the sacred tablets in his faithfulness to receive tips that would prevent people from eating each other's livers. One is "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness," which is all that the Democrats do these days in which they perceive that telling the truth is optional to sycophantic liberals who swallow the jizz, also a no-no.

Glad you asked, ya big odummy.
 

odanny

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I thought President Bush was very honest, and his librarian wife, First Lady Laura Bush was dynamite to ignorance by inciting literacy at a high level to all American Children.
President Bush stood for strength in American children, not to mention adults, by his daily running through the paths of Washington D.C., from his background of being the owner of a major league competitive sports team. He won awards from Ducks Unlimited for his great love of protecting animals from ground pollution from the petroleum industry and set an example in so doing to the world to clean up its pollution act. He did his best, and I am proud I had the privilege of voting for him twice for President. And I praise him for starting a Presidential Library in his adopted state of Texas where his family lived starting with his second birthday if memory serves me right.
And as far as war crimes are concerned, he prevented Saddam Hussein from murdering millions. God bless President Dubya for all time.
Where on earth do they grow you people?

Jesus H. Christ.
In a Christian environment in which one does not trust demonic loudmouths, but in the 10 suggestions God provided to Moses, who brought down from the mountain to a people who'd formed a Golden Calf to worship while the prophet was receiving the sacred tablets in his faithfulness to receive tips that would prevent people from eating each other's livers. One is "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness," which is all that the Democrats do these days in which they perceive that telling the truth is optional to sycophantic liberals who swallow the jizz, also a no-no.

Glad you asked, ya big odummy.

Wow. Here we had a President who spent over a year lying daily, all in order to invade a country that did nothing to us, would end up being responsible for the deaths of up to, and possibly over, a million people. And you have not only the audacity, but the rank ignorance to mention "bearing false witness"? The President who wanted to torture, kill, and maim innocents in order to secure access to Iraq's oil?

Then, in order to add an exclamation mark to your whole sorry state of mental gymnastics, you mention a Golden Calf, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump!

I'll be perfectly honest, "Christians" like yourself (and the quotations indicate fraudulent) are as evil as ISIS is in regards to their religion, both of you people (fraudulent Christians and militant Islamists) are just fucking downright evil. You and I both know you'd reject Jesus if he walked the earth today as some kind of hippie socialist, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump.

Yea, Golden Calf indeed, you're just too stupid to understand it is you on your knees before it.
 

Mushroom

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Also I think it was a mistake when it became clear the Shia Sunni divide was so intense, so insanely bloody, that no unified state could really function effectively, that the US did not break off the Kurds.
To me, the biggest problem with both Iraq and Afghanistan can be summed up in a single phrase.

To much intent on Democracy.

Both of those countries actually had a popular Monarchy, before they were overthrown by coups which dissolved them from the inside and turned them into dictatorships. And if you look at that region, the most stable nations are almost all monarchies.

They give the people to rally around, somebody who historically was seen as "theirs", and can help unify and unite them into ignoring the small tribal things and thinking of themselves as a single nation again.

Now both of those nations could have been rebuilt as they were prior to the coups that overthrew them. Form Constitutional Monarchies, with a Parliament, and a Constitution to guarantee the rights of all, but a person on top to moderate the fanatics on both extremes.

There is a reason that the UK has been stable for hundreds of years, through a great many changes in culture, population, and technology. By emulating a system like that it gives them a sense of stability once again, and later on they can then emulate more of the UK system and reduce the King to a figurehead. But for the first decade or two they needed a strong central leader that could gain the support of his or her people.

Instead, they were taught that Democracy is little other than mob rule, and those who are not in the majority are nothing. This is a region that did not trust Democracy, and now they have seen exactly why it does not work.

Very few nations can make such a leap, in the vast majority of "Democracies" they fall to infighting or the strongest becoming more and more dictatorial in their powers. For every 1 US or Israel, there are dozens of Argentinas, Iraqs, Libyas, Venezuelas, and Ugandas. Where Democracy was a complete failure, or only a claim to be while in reality it was never really anything but rule by a single person or party.

I always shake my head when people try to talk about the failure of such countries to pull themselves back together. They are unable to, because people who claim to be a lot smarter than I have forced them to accept a form of government they never had before. A form they never trusted, and which historically fails almost every time it is attempted without some prep work that was never done in that region.
 

odanny

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If you really want to know what went wrong in Iraq, I'd suggest you read this book by Thomas E. Ricks. And before you start crying he is some liberal writer from the East Coast, look at his background and his work writing about the military before you pass judgement. It is an incisive and illuminating look at what went on behind the scenes of the planning and execution of this egregious military blunder that cost the lives of so many innocent people, including thousands of Americans.

Fiasco - The American Military Adventure in Iraq
 

beautress

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I thought President Bush was very honest, and his librarian wife, First Lady Laura Bush was dynamite to ignorance by inciting literacy at a high level to all American Children.
President Bush stood for strength in American children, not to mention adults, by his daily running through the paths of Washington D.C., from his background of being the owner of a major league competitive sports team. He won awards from Ducks Unlimited for his great love of protecting animals from ground pollution from the petroleum industry and set an example in so doing to the world to clean up its pollution act. He did his best, and I am proud I had the privilege of voting for him twice for President. And I praise him for starting a Presidential Library in his adopted state of Texas where his family lived starting with his second birthday if memory serves me right.
And as far as war crimes are concerned, he prevented Saddam Hussein from murdering millions. God bless President Dubya for all time.
Where on earth do they grow you people?

Jesus H. Christ.
In a Christian environment in which one does not trust demonic loudmouths, but in the 10 suggestions God provided to Moses, who brought down from the mountain to a people who'd formed a Golden Calf to worship while the prophet was receiving the sacred tablets in his faithfulness to receive tips that would prevent people from eating each other's livers. One is "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness," which is all that the Democrats do these days in which they perceive that telling the truth is optional to sycophantic liberals who swallow the jizz, also a no-no.

Glad you asked, ya big odummy.

Wow. Here we had a President who spent over a year lying daily, all in order to invade a country that did nothing to us, would end up being responsible for the deaths of up to, and possibly over, a million people. And you have not only the audacity, but the rank ignorance to mention "bearing false witness"? The President who wanted to torture, kill, and maim innocents in order to secure access to Iraq's oil?

Then, in order to add an exclamation mark to your whole sorry state of mental gymnastics, you mention a Golden Calf, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump!

I'll be perfectly honest, "Christians" like yourself (and the quotations indicate fraudulent) are as evil as ISIS is in regards to their religion, both of you people (fraudulent Christians and militant Islamists) are just fucking downright evil. You and I both know you'd reject Jesus if he walked the earth today as some kind of hippie socialist, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump.

Yea, Golden Calf indeed, you're just too stupid to understand it is you on your knees before it.
The UN agreed that Saddam Hussein, former President of Iraq murdered almost a million and a half of his neighbors and citizens. And he killed 800,000 Iranians over a 25-square mile piece of property he coveted. Many with sarin gas and buried IEDs of which 100,000 of those were children the Iranians used to "find" the mines with for Allah. Sarin gas and its family of gases that kill people by the same mechanism ARE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. I rest my case.

I apologize for calling you Odummy. I thought of it in my vespers hour last night and asked God to bless you in a special way on account of my bad online conduct. I'll do my best to never do that again. I usually am polite to other posters, but I wasn't polite to you for which you have my sincere regrets, Mr. odanny, and I won't do it again.
 

beautress

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odanny said: "Wow. Here we had a President who spent over a year lying daily, all in order to invade a country that did nothing to us, would end up being responsible for the deaths of up to, and possibly over, a million people. And you have not only the audacity, but the rank ignorance to mention "bearing false witness"? The President who wanted to torture, kill, and maim innocents in order to secure access to Iraq's oil?"​

Sorry, I do not agree that President Bush went beyond the information he was given, and those million people you claim he was responsible for their deaths? Actually you're using all the people that were killed by Saddam's henchmen. We only did what was necessary to bring about change for the future of Iraq, that it would become a peaceful nation. That was done by Bush. His successor went around the Middle East for self-aggrandizement and telling people things they wanted to hear, not things he could get Congress to pass. Bush's policies date back to the desk of Secretary of State Madeline Albright who made suggestions that President Bush honored, not making things up on his own. That just did not happen, but the press was thrilled to paint President Bush before he was inaugurated into Mad Magazine world marginalizations that were unbefitting a press that presents facts to the public. And the press is still whipping that same dead horse which you are assisting them in the flogging of it.

Then, in order to add an exclamation mark to your whole sorry state of mental gymnastics, you mention a Golden Calf, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump! Yea, Golden Calf indeed, you're just too stupid to understand it is you on your knees before it.​

No, I honor my President who was commissioned by God to end the threat of communism in this country. Socialism is merely the euphemism that the Democrat Party uses to excuse itself from the disciplines of religion that would prevent a Vice President from going into a third world country the Congress just voted in 3 billion dollars and tell the country that he, Vice President Biden, would cut off that three billion if they didn't provide him with one billion to himself and a several-million-a-year job for his son as a "consultant" in an industry he knew nothing about IF they didn't get rid of the man who was investigating the son's background to insure he had the credentials for any position in that third world country's government and industrial interests. The third world country cradled, thinking that two of the three billion dollars they were promised was better than nothing. If you read what's inside all that extortion, you get a crook extorting taxpayer funding, which means one billion dollars for free from working people who have to pay taxes on earnings, services, and businesses they provide for their communities. Not one of us knew he was picking our pocket using the title "I AM THE VICE PRESIDENT AND I WILL SCREW YOU OUT OF THREE BILLION BUCKS IF YOU DON'T GIVE ME A THIRD AND MY SON A JOB AND FIRE THAT SO-AND-SO WHO'S LOOKING INTO MY SON'S COLLEGE RECORDS AND EMPLOYMENT RECORDS THAT I FIND OFFENSIVE."

Please, Mr. odanny, do the math. And this was not the first in a long career of threatening foreign countries that that particular Democrat Vice President picked based on the megabucks we, the taxpayers agreed to pay to a greedier and greedier and greedier Congress and abuser of the Vice Presidential Office and title, for which he should be serving time in the slammer, not running for President. Who'd vote for a seditious, conniving criminal who has nothing but contempt for his country's treasury that he is currently trying to avoid by pretending that he, the great contender for President of the United States can jumprope all over the intended purpose of the Presidency and extort more, more, and more personal wealth and teach other Democrats to do likewise if anybody in this entire world is already doing likewise through craft and determination to have other people's hard-earned money in his offshore bank accounts.

odanny claims: I'll be perfectly honest, "Christians" like yourself (and the quotations indicate fraudulent) are as evil as ISIS is in regards to their religion, both of you people (fraudulent Christians and militant Islamists) are just fucking downright evil. You and I both know you'd reject Jesus if he walked the earth today as some kind of hippie socialist, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump.​

Sorry, Mr. odanny, I am very sincere about my worship of God, and my credo is that I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth, and in Jesus Christ, His only son, our Lord who was conceived by the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Ghost, the holy Catholic (meaning unified) Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting, amen.

One other thing, hippies were rather arrogant and privileged persons who decided against principles of the Bible written in the past, whom they marginalized in the same way you marginalized me as a fraud. And all these years I thought I was an authentic human being, warts and all, who loves the way of the Lord even if I act like a human when someone stomps on my foot, and I yell "ow!"

I'm smarting from politicians picking pockets needlessly, requesting funds from poor widows when they may have millions if not billions of dollars at their disposal, which they can and do choose pet rocks with which to stick the taxpayers for their own personal wealth, much more frequently than any of us knows.

That's all I really have to say about my opinions, except I wish the press would make an effort to tell the truths they know rather than playing hide and seek with treasury transactions, where the money goes, and why it goes there. I think surplus funds should be given back to the people who sacrificed all for the betterment of this nation by funding food and fuel to nations with too many poor people in it.

Have a blessed rest of your week, everyone. I have to go sew some face masks.
 
OP
Angelo

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....they relied on the WMD argument almost exclusively. (Though I do believe they believed he still had them, because he was behaving like he still had them. He did not even fully cooperate during his "final chance" the UN Blix inspections. And the former Clinton CIA Director told Bush "it is a slam dunk" they will find WMD.)
Saddam was a CIA asset.
He had the WMD's and we knew because we sold them to him in the early 80's, but
couldn't admit to it.
 

Jake Winker Frogen

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....they relied on the WMD argument almost exclusively. (Though I do believe they believed he still had them, because he was behaving like he still had them. He did not even fully cooperate during his "final chance" the UN Blix inspections. And the former Clinton CIA Director told Bush "it is a slam dunk" they will find WMD.)
Saddam was a CIA asset.
He had the WMD's and we knew because we sold them to him in the early 80's, but
couldn't admit to it.

Actually Saddam got most of his WMD capacity from Europe, mostly Germany.

He was only given agricultural agents which could be weaponized from the US by the Reagan Administration but Congress cut that off.


The US did cooperate with Saddam when he attacked Iran, but he was such a destabilising wild card in invaded fellow Sunni state Kuwait, at that point any cooperation was done.
 

harmonica

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I thought President Bush was very honest, and his librarian wife, First Lady Laura Bush was dynamite to ignorance by inciting literacy at a high level to all American Children.
President Bush stood for strength in American children, not to mention adults, by his daily running through the paths of Washington D.C., from his background of being the owner of a major league competitive sports team. He won awards from Ducks Unlimited for his great love of protecting animals from ground pollution from the petroleum industry and set an example in so doing to the world to clean up its pollution act. He did his best, and I am proud I had the privilege of voting for him twice for President. And I praise him for starting a Presidential Library in his adopted state of Texas where his family lived starting with his second birthday if memory serves me right.
And as far as war crimes are concerned, he prevented Saddam Hussein from murdering millions. God bless President Dubya for all time.
Where on earth do they grow you people?

Jesus H. Christ.
In a Christian environment in which one does not trust demonic loudmouths, but in the 10 suggestions God provided to Moses, who brought down from the mountain to a people who'd formed a Golden Calf to worship while the prophet was receiving the sacred tablets in his faithfulness to receive tips that would prevent people from eating each other's livers. One is "Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness," which is all that the Democrats do these days in which they perceive that telling the truth is optional to sycophantic liberals who swallow the jizz, also a no-no.

Glad you asked, ya big odummy.

Wow. Here we had a President who spent over a year lying daily, all in order to invade a country that did nothing to us, would end up being responsible for the deaths of up to, and possibly over, a million people. And you have not only the audacity, but the rank ignorance to mention "bearing false witness"? The President who wanted to torture, kill, and maim innocents in order to secure access to Iraq's oil?

Then, in order to add an exclamation mark to your whole sorry state of mental gymnastics, you mention a Golden Calf, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump!

I'll be perfectly honest, "Christians" like yourself (and the quotations indicate fraudulent) are as evil as ISIS is in regards to their religion, both of you people (fraudulent Christians and militant Islamists) are just fucking downright evil. You and I both know you'd reject Jesus if he walked the earth today as some kind of hippie socialist, all while worshipping someone named Donald Trump.

Yea, Golden Calf indeed, you're just too stupid to understand it is you on your knees before it.
...Iraq started the warS--not the US
..Iraq gassed their own people--like hitler
..Iraq violated the cease fire --like hitler
..Iraq invaded a neighbor--like hitler
 

harmonica

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If you really want to know what went wrong in Iraq, I'd suggest you read this book by Thomas E. Ricks. And before you start crying he is some liberal writer from the East Coast, look at his background and his work writing about the military before you pass judgement. It is an incisive and illuminating look at what went on behind the scenes of the planning and execution of this egregious military blunder that cost the lives of so many innocent people, including thousands of Americans.

Fiasco - The American Military Adventure in Iraq
..you don't know much about history...the US bombed and went into Europe and:
millions died
millions displaced
millions starved/starved to death
millions wounded
..during and after WW2 there were many, many conflicts/civil wars/etc
..wars cause all of this--chaos/DEATHS/upheaval/etc = it is not easy or CLEAN--like a movie!!!!!!!! DUH
..it is complicated
 

odanny

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If you really want to know what went wrong in Iraq, I'd suggest you read this book by Thomas E. Ricks. And before you start crying he is some liberal writer from the East Coast, look at his background and his work writing about the military before you pass judgement. It is an incisive and illuminating look at what went on behind the scenes of the planning and execution of this egregious military blunder that cost the lives of so many innocent people, including thousands of Americans.

Fiasco - The American Military Adventure in Iraq
..you don't know much about history...the US bombed and went into Europe and:
millions died
millions displaced
millions starved/starved to death
millions wounded
..during and after WW2 there were many, many conflicts/civil wars/etc
..wars cause all of this--chaos/DEATHS/upheaval/etc = it is not easy or CLEAN--like a movie!!!!!!!! DUH
..it is complicated
You're telling me I don't know much about history.

That's funny.
 

harmonica

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If you really want to know what went wrong in Iraq, I'd suggest you read this book by Thomas E. Ricks. And before you start crying he is some liberal writer from the East Coast, look at his background and his work writing about the military before you pass judgement. It is an incisive and illuminating look at what went on behind the scenes of the planning and execution of this egregious military blunder that cost the lives of so many innocent people, including thousands of Americans.

Fiasco - The American Military Adventure in Iraq
..you don't know much about history...the US bombed and went into Europe and:
millions died
millions displaced
millions starved/starved to death
millions wounded
..during and after WW2 there were many, many conflicts/civil wars/etc
..wars cause all of this--chaos/DEATHS/upheaval/etc = it is not easy or CLEAN--like a movie!!!!!!!! DUH
..it is complicated
You're telling me I don't know much about history.

That's funny.
that's right
wars cause chaos and they cause deaths---
 

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