Want to Keep Pot Illegal? Time to Justify...

[ScienceRocks]

Drone strikes are legal, but smoking a joint isnt. Lol. Wake up folks. Its almost over!

I would add that not only are drone strikes legal, but being the Commander in Chief that conducts those strikes will actually get you a Nobel Peace prize.

Smoking a harmless, natural substance = Go to Jail
Drone Strike Commander = Peace Prize

You can't come up with this stuff! Reality is just too bizarre.

It sure as hell shouldn't = a peace prize, but if you have to go to war, you go to war with the idea of losing the least amount of troops. Now I agree that the leaf should be legal.

 

[KevinWestern]

It sure as hell shouldn't = a peace prize, but if you have to go to war, you go to war with the idea of losing the least amount of troops.

Well, that's the problem; I get your point, but did we even need to go to war with half of these countries? Sure, if we had the Germans taking over half of Europe tomorrow, we'll send some drones to stop them and minimize American casualties...

But did we need to send 6,000+ US kids to their deaths to take over a country that had nothing to do with 9/11?

Anyways, off topic...


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[MaryL]

We are talking past each other here. Your arguments are...sophistic. I lost both of my parents to cancer. Can you put a price tag on preventing death or addiction?

 

[MikeK]

I live in Colorado; legalizing pot really opened a Pandora’s box. I have smoked marijuana; frankly it was a big letdown. Do we need an excuse to ban this crap? I don’t smoke cigarettes either, because it’s a carcinogen and toxic. Tobacco has almost been banned from America public life, it's a health hazard and addictive. What is the point of legalizing marijuana? Didn’t we learn anything from tobacco?

It seems your position is based on comparing marijuana with tobacco when there is no basis for that comparison. The only similarity between the two entities is marijana is typically smoked -- which is a consequence of prohibition. The only reason marijuana is typically smoked is it's the easiest way to use it. But smoking it is neither the only way nor is it the best way.

Smoking marijuana accelerates and intensifies its effect, but it also compresses the effect and its duration. In other words the effect is not as pleasant and long-lasting as that which follows ingesting edible forms of marijuana, of which there are many. There are two reason why edible marijuana (e.g., "pot brownies," etc.) is not more common, one is cost: the preparation of edibles requires more plant material than smoking does. But the main reason is cooking and baking with marijuana calls for knowledge and experience, which is hard to come by within an atmosphere of prohibition. Legalization would eliminate both barriers.

Also, the use of vaporizers as a substitute for smoking marijuana is a newly emerging method of use which completely eliminates the harmful effect of smoking marijuana but retains the same level of effect (immediate and intense).

To more assertively address your comparison of marijuana with tobacco; we know that smoking tobaco (cigarettes) kills and damages hundreds of thousands of Americans every year. But even though smoking ("joints") presently is by far the most common means of using marijuana there is no record anywhere in the annals of medical science to suggest that anyone has ever died from or been made sick from using marijuana! Not one!

 

[KevinWestern]

We are talking past each other here. Your arguments are...sophistic. I lost both of my parents to cancer. Can you put a price tag on preventing death or addiction?

Mary – I’m sorry for your losses, however you (I assume) are referring to tobacco, which is a lot different than marijuana; it has more carcinogens, it’s much more addictive, and much more deadly. We’re talking two different things in both habit and substance. Do you think people would go out for a “marijuana” break 5 times a day during work? It’s a different drug, and people smoke it at a different frequency. You must acknowledge this.

Which part of my arguments were ‘sophistic’? Please specify below:

Will we not save millions freeing up the jails, and freeing up police/court resources by legalizing marijuana?
Will we not create thousands of new jobs (that support families) by opening up an entirely new marijuana industry?
Will we not cut the revenue streams of the cartels, diminishing their power to a significant degree?

Let me better explain my position. I don’t want to encourage children to get addicted to drugs, ect, but in a free society we need to choose where we want our limited resources going towards (right?).

Would you rather have a cop filling out paperwork for some kid he just caught with a joint, or policing the street to arrest gang-bangers and rapists? Would you rather fill up our prisons with non-violent marijuana users, or fill them up with murderers and fraudsters?


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[MaryL]

We are talking past each other here. Your arguments are...sophistic. I lost both of my parents to cancer. Can you put a price tag on preventing death or addiction?

Mary – I’m sorry for your losses, however you (I assume) are referring to tobacco, which is a lot different than marijuana; it has more carcinogens, it’s much more addictive, and much more deadly. We’re talking two different things in both habit and substance. Do you think people would go out for a “marijuana” break 5 times a day during work? It’s a different drug, and people smoke it at a different frequency. You must acknowledge this.

Which part of my arguments were ‘sophistic’? Please specify below:

Will we not save millions freeing up the jails, and freeing up police/court resources by legalizing marijuana?
Will we not create thousands of new jobs (that support families) by opening up an entirely new marijuana industry?
Will we not cut the revenue streams of the cartels, diminishing their power to a significant degree?

Let me better explain my position. I don’t want to encourage children to get addicted to drugs, ect, but in a free society we need to choose where we want our limited resources going towards (right?).

Would you rather have a cop filling out paperwork for some kid he just caught with a joint, or policing the street to arrest gang-bangers and rapists? Would you rather fill up our prisons with non-violent marijuana users, or fill them up with murderers and fraudsters?


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Sorry for my losses? Yeah, right. Why is it, I have the funny feeling that perhaps you have vested interest in this issue? You constantly emphasize MONEY here. That’s what people do to exploit others; I take it you are involved in profiting from the sale of marijuana. Do you? Be honest here. No law against THAT. Being a nice little capitalist. Or Honesty.

 

[KevinWestern]

Sorry for my losses? Yeah, right.

Thanks for assuming I'm a heartless person. Ever for a moment considered that there may be other people on this forum besides you that have lost a loved one to cancer and would like to acknowledge their sympathy?

Why is it, I have the funny feeling that perhaps you have vested interest in this issue? You constantly emphasize MONEY here. That’s what people do to exploit others; I take it you are involved in profiting from the sale of marijuana. Do you? Be honest here. No law against THAT. Being a nice little capitalist. Or Honesty.

Lol, what? I work in completely unrelated industry. Really strange accusation.

By the turn of events, I can see that you're not ready for a serious, rational discussion on this issue..

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[MaryL]

Sorry for my losses? Yeah, right.

Thanks for assuming I'm a heartless person. Ever for a moment considered that there may be other people on this forum besides you that have lost a loved one to cancer and would like to acknowledge their sympathy?

Why is it, I have the funny feeling that perhaps you have vested interest in this issue? You constantly emphasize MONEY here. That’s what people do to exploit others; I take it you are involved in profiting from the sale of marijuana. Do you? Be honest here. No law against THAT. Being a nice little capitalist. Or Honesty.

Lol, what? I work in completely unrelated industry. Really strange accusation.

By the turn of events, I can see that you're not ready for a serious, rational discussion on this issue..

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Do tell. Can you answer a simple question? If I am wrong, I can deal it. Marijuana is so trivial. Please. You profit from this? Simple little question.

 

[KevinWestern]

Sorry for my losses? Yeah, right.

Thanks for assuming I'm a heartless person. Ever for a moment considered that there may be other people on this forum besides you that have lost a loved one to cancer and would like to acknowledge their sympathy?

Why is it, I have the funny feeling that perhaps you have vested interest in this issue? You constantly emphasize MONEY here. That’s what people do to exploit others; I take it you are involved in profiting from the sale of marijuana. Do you? Be honest here. No law against THAT. Being a nice little capitalist. Or Honesty.

Lol, what? I work in completely unrelated industry. Really strange accusation.

By the turn of events, I can see that you're not ready for a serious, rational discussion on this issue..

.

Do tell. Can you answer a simple question? If I am wrong, I can deal it. Marijuana is so trivial. Please. You profit from this? Simple little question.

Mary, you’re missing 70% of my argument; in fact, let’s not consider the economic value/profit at all – alright? We’ll move that argument aside.

What’s your take on the hundreds of millions we spend on (a) jailing people, (b) court costs, (c) police work?

In a time of great State and Federal deficits (and in a time when they’re thinking about cutting medicare, ect) do we really need to spend all of that money policing a drug that’s non-addictive, natural, and really doesn’t alter your state of being all that significantly (when compared to alcohol, cocaine, meth, crack, ect)? Shouldn’t we be pouring those $’s into things like education or healthcare?

And what about this take; justify why it's important to throw non-violent people in jail for doing a drug like marijuana, saturating space for the murders, rapists, child pornographers, ect.

We can't have it all. We have limited resources and limited tax dollars. I don't think marijuana deserves all the attention it's getting... that's my point.




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[MaryL]

Personally, I love how you stand up for an issue and that’s great. Why is it you don't answer a simple question? What IS your interest here? Bang up job here, kid. When people mention money and profits all the time, then speak about morality or fairness that gets my feelers up. And you always have a ready answer. Good for you. I oppose legalizing Marijuana. Most people in Colorado have as much wisdom as YOU, and they are for legalizing pot. There is an old dictum here: Be careful of what you asked for, you might just get it.

 

[MeadHallPirate]

Consider the cost? Most of the people I know who smoke also smoke pot. My father and mother were both heavy smokers. They were addicted by big tobacco companies. The cost? My parents both died from lung cancer. We spend billions fighting cancer, and we loose lives to addiction. I think I know the cost. We are trying to encourage people to live a healthy life here, not pander to addiction. I think, kiddo, you have an agenda here.

ahoy MaryL,

imma unclear why yer makin' a linkage between tobacco and the fine herb, lass.

*ponders and struggles with the topic*

good herb be like addin' salt to food, me friend - it brings out the flavor in life and makes it more delicious.

i can see that 'tis not to yer tastes, and i don't think the Federal Government ought to be allowed to force ye to smoke it. ye certainly should have the freedom to abstain.

MeadHallPirate believes in liberty, aye.

- MeadHallPirate

 

[KevinWestern]

Personally, I love how you stand up for an issue and that’s great. Why is it you don't answer a simple question? What IS your interest here? Bang up job here, kid. When people mention money and profits all the time, then speak about morality or fairness that gets my feelers up. And you always have a ready answer. Good for you. I oppose legalizing Marijuana. Most people in Colorado have as much wisdom as YOU, and they are for legalizing pot. There is an old dictum here: Be careful of what you asked for, you might just get it.

My interest is making sure our tax dollars are effectively used to make our society safer, and that they're not throw away. I would like the hard earned money that I earn (that's taken from my paycheck) to go to things like education, healthcare, and keeping rapists, murderers, and thieves off the street.

I don't consider this plant threat enough to spend the money we do policing it.

I'm fine with cocaine, meth, and heroin remaining illegal because they are proven to be highly addictive and deadly. We spend millions policing these because these drugs can literally kill you the first time you use them. Doctors have never prescribed "meth" to a cancer patient and there's good reason for that..

And one last note, the money aspect isn't totally unrelated to morality. If we spend less money on something like policing marijuana and more on prosecuting murderers, we WILL save lives. If we spend less money on policing marijuana and more money on healthcare we WILL save lives. I don't think it's a totally shallow subject to start with because money - when spent correctly - might mean cancer medication for someone on medicare (for example).

Appreciate the discussion, and thanks for going back and forth.


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[MaryL]

It's just a coincidence that this thread was based on the unjust spending on drug prevention and not millions we spend weaning folks off drugs , please. You never answered what your monetary interests are here. Is it really worth it? I forgot, this isn’t about “MONEY”. It’s about. What? Legalizing pot. It’s funny how pot smokers are in denial here, just like my parents were about tobacco. Funny how that works about denial and addiction. Be careful, dude….

 

[theDoctorisIn]

We are talking past each other here. Your arguments are...sophistic. I lost both of my parents to cancer. Can you put a price tag on preventing death or addiction?

Not a single human being has ever died from smoking pot.

And laws against it don't prevent "addiction".

 

[KevinWestern]

It's just a coincidence that this thread was based the unjust spending on drug prevention and not millions we spend weaning folks off drugs , please. You never answered what your monetary interests are here. Is it really worth it? I forgot, this isn’t about “MONEY”. It’s about. What? Legalizing pot. It’s funny how pot smokers are in denial here, just like my parents were about tobacco. Funny how that works about denial and addiction. Be careful, dude….

Not sure what you're talking about Mary (starting to lose me).

My argument is simple; as a society, we are worse off by choosing to prohibit marijuana (taking into account all factors and all the other places we can be expending our resources). Not saying pot is beneficial, necessarily, but something doesn't need to be beneficial to be legal - right?

The costs we pay are too steep for something that doesn't pose much of a threat to begin with.

I have no specific monetary interest in the marijuana business.

Does that answer your question?

 

[MaryL]

We are talking past each other here. Your arguments are...sophistic. I lost both of my parents to cancer. Can you put a price tag on preventing death or addiction?

Not a single human being has ever died from smoking pot.

And laws against it don't prevent "addiction".

Not a single person has ever died from smoking pot. Really? How many people died trying to get that crap here. The cartels, the smugglers, that whole violent lifestyle, not to mention the DEA agents had to die or be put at risk so that some of you can suck on this crap? Laws don't prevent Murder, either. So what. I say. let’s at least try to do the right thing. Got a problem with that?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

We are talking past each other here. Your arguments are...sophistic. I lost both of my parents to cancer. Can you put a price tag on preventing death or addiction?

Not a single human being has ever died from smoking pot.

And laws against it don't prevent "addiction".

Not a single person has ever died from smoking pot. Really? How many people died trying to get that crap here. The cartels, the smugglers, that whole violent lifestyle, not to mention the DEA agents had to die or be put at risk so that some of you can suck on this crap? Laws don't prevent Murder, either. So what. I say. let’s at least try to do the right thing. Got a problem with that?

The cartels, smugglers, and the whole "violent lifestyle" comes entirely from the fact that Cannabis is illegal.

If it wasn't illegal, DEA agents wouldn't be dying, and cartels wouldn't be smuggling it.

 

[KevinWestern]

Not a single human being has ever died from smoking pot.

And laws against it don't prevent "addiction".

Not a single person has ever died from smoking pot. Really? How many people died trying to get that crap here. The cartels, the smugglers, that whole violent lifestyle, not to mention the DEA agents had to die or be put at risk so that some of you can suck on this crap? Laws don't prevent Murder, either. So what. I say. let’s at least try to do the right thing. Got a problem with that?

The cartels, smugglers, and the whole "violent lifestyle" comes entirely from the fact that Cannabis is illegal.

If it wasn't illegal, DEA agents wouldn't be dying, and cartels wouldn't be smuggling it.

Precisely. I'm pretty sure automatic weapons aren't included in Miller/Coors' annual operating plan.

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[logical4u]

It's time the prohibitionists justify why marijuana should remain illegal.

Why is it on them? It's on them because prohibition means some very negative and real consequences that we as a society have to all deal with, namely:

1.) Policing marijuana costs us billions in taxpayer dollars every year (ie police work, courts, prison overhead, feeding prisoners, ect). This money comes out of my paycheck.
2.) Policing marijuana drains on vital resources (cops could be stopping murders, violent crimes, courts could be freed up).
3.) Marijuana prohibition puts millions of non violent people who pose no threat to anyone behind bars every year. This breaks up families, ruins career opportunities.
4.) Marijuana prohibition gives power to the drug cartels and their violent activities. If pot were legal, much of their revenue stream (to buy guns, ect) would be cut.
5.) Marijuana prohibition means that all the money that could be made from private legal enterprise in the US instead remain mostly in Mexico in the hands of criminals (tax free).

Now, I'm open for a discussion (of course), but I think it needs to start with providing the benefits of Marijuana prohibition (specifically), and how those benefits outweigh all of those combined.

These things are currently impacting us each and every day, so I think it's a very important discussion.

If the US was a company, is prohibition worth the cost? I say NO WAY.

Thanks everyone...

1. Marijuana policing is still going to cost billions. It is not legal to be stoned on most jobs, each accident requires a drug test, how much do you think that is going to cost? That does not include the numbers of injuries or deaths from a person thinking they can perform their hazardous job, stoned. It will still have to be policed for stoned drivers. The police don't usually stop someone for lighting up, they stop them because they are not operating a vehicle in a safe manner.
2. See resources used on 1.
3. Many of those people bargained their original violent crime down to "drug possession". There are very few people in prison for "using" marijuana.
4. This is like the argument that legalizing gambling would put the "mob" out of business. It legitimizes them....
5. Yes, true, now the money will be in the hand of "legitimatized" criminals.

6. There are some studies out that link marijuana use and ADHD in their children. Also, marijuana causes the same type of brain problems caused by dementia. In a time when we are having the gov't pay for health care, we do NOT need those costs increasing by legalizing anything that will add to those costs.

7. Legalizing marijuana will give more children access to marijuana at earlier ages. If they imitate their parents (similar to alcohol use), their brains could be limited in development, or have other long time damage. How many billions, and billions will that cost in "disabilities"?

One other thing, the American natives believed that marijuana was a "feminine" drug (once you use it and like it, you will be possessive and defensive of it). In a country where it is getting harder and harder to find people of fortitude, legalizing marijuana will make the average voter even more compliant for the deceitful politicians to manipulate votes, and control the population. The stoners will not even realize what happened. Their children will pay for their mistakes. And their grandchildren and their great grandchildren will pay for their mistakes. Do the rest of us a favor, if you do a lot of marijuana, get yourself fixed so that you cannot have children that you will be too stoned to pay attention to, or will cause birth defects by the amounts you smoke.

 

[KevinWestern]

1. Marijuana policing is still going to cost billions. It is not legal to be stoned on most jobs, each accident requires a drug test, how much do you think that is going to cost? That does not include the numbers of injuries or deaths from a person thinking they can perform their hazardous job, stoned. It will still have to be policed for stoned drivers. The police don't usually stop someone for lighting up, they stop them because they are not operating a vehicle in a safe manner.

Wait, so you're telling me the incremental smokers (because already 42% of American adults have reported using it illegally) are going to cause billions of dollars in additional accidents & stoned driving police work? Sounds like quite a gigantic assumption to me. Again, you have to base your reasoning on the fact that already millions and millions Americans are already using; it's not like we're starting from scratch here.

3. Many of those people bargained their original violent crime down to "drug possession". There are very few people in prison for "using" marijuana.

Here's a fact, in 2010 the FBI reported 850,000 people arrested for marijuana related offenses. That's roughly 97 people every hour. Do you have any facts backing up your claim?

4. This is like the argument that legalizing gambling would put the "mob" out of business. It legitimizes them....

Funny you jump to "gambling" (little unrelated, huh). How about the mob and the alcohol business; how did that work out for them?

5. Yes, true, now the money will be in the hand of "legitimatized" criminals.

You gave me an example of the mob going into gambling - not alcohol. Try again!

6. There are some studies out that link marijuana use and ADHD in their children. Also, marijuana causes the same type of brain problems caused by dementia. In a time when we are having the gov't pay for health care, we do NOT need those costs increasing by legalizing anything that will add to those costs.

Links?

7. Legalizing marijuana will give more children access to marijuana at earlier ages. If they imitate their parents (similar to alcohol use), their brains could be limited in development, or have other long time damage. How many billions, and billions will that cost in "disabilities"?

Links? Backup? Evidence?

One other thing, the American natives believed that marijuana was a "feminine" drug (once you use it and like it, you will be possessive and defensive of it). In a country where it is getting harder and harder to find people of fortitude, legalizing marijuana will make the average voter even more compliant for the deceitful politicians to manipulate votes, and control the population. The stoners will not even realize what happened. Their children will pay for their mistakes. And their grandchildren and their great grandchildren will pay for their mistakes. Do the rest of us a favor, if you do a lot of marijuana, get yourself fixed so that you cannot have children that you will be too stoned to pay attention to, or will cause birth defects by the amounts you smoke.

You - to me - don't sound like a marijuana smoker. In my experience marijuana has given me greater clarity into various life issues, and has helped me appreciate some of the details that I normally gloss over when sober. If anything, marijuana will make me a more thoughtful, diligent voter.

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