Zone1 Wanna Be Catholic

[Meriweather]

The Catholic church is pro immigration because those south of the border are Catholics, and the church needs more asses in the pews. They lost plenty with the scandal and closed many churches because of it.

There are Catholic Churches everywhere. No one needs to go to another country to be welcome into a Catholic Church. To be welcome into the United States legally, one doesn't go to a Catholic Church; one goes to the US government.

 

[rightwinger]

Refugees also have the way of entering countries legally. And many do. If the process of of immigration, whether refugee or better life, needs reform, then work on reform. Throwing open the borders is not the answer. Entering illegally is not the answer because then worse problems than the legal way of entry will have to be faced.

That is why it becomes a moral issue.

Prior to WWII we denied entry to a boatload of Jewish refugees and sent them back to Germany. hundreds subsequently were killed.

Legally, we had a right to turn away Jewish refugees.
Morally, we did not.

A Ship of Jewish Refugees Was Refused US Landing in 1939. This Was Their Fate | HISTORY

The more than 900 passengers of the M.S. St. Louis were denied entry by immigration authorities in multiple countries...

www.history.com

 

[Meriweather]

That is why it becomes a moral issue.

Prior to WWII we denied entry to a boatload of Jewish refugees and sent them back to Germany. hundreds subsequently were killed.

Legally, we had a right to turn away Jewish refugees.
Morally, we did not.

If you want to get to basic morals, Germany had no right to kill them. Did you also do research on how many refugees were legally accepted into the United States who might have been killed otherwise?

We are a nation of laws. Would you prefer a lawless nation?

 

[rightwinger]

If you want to get to basic morals, Germany had no right to kill them. Did you also do research on how many refugees were legally accepted into the United States who might have been killed otherwise?

We are a nation of laws. Would you prefer a lawless nation?

The Catholic Church, as well as myself believe our laws need to be tempered with tolerance
It is the Christian thing to do

Pope to Trump: May US prosper and shun all hatred, discrimination or exclusion

Pope Francis marked the inauguration of U.S. President Donald Trump with a message and prayers for wisdom and efforts to promote peace and reconciliation....

www.usccb.org

 

[Meriweather]

The Catholic Church, as well as myself believe our laws need to be tempered with tolerance
It is the Christian thing to do

Okay. Go through immigration law and list all the intolerant points. There is a way for every immigrant, every refugee to enter into this nation lawfully. Many do. What they find intolerant are immigrants not following lawful entry.

I've said this in an earlier post. If the Catholic Church wishes to be part of the immigration process and work with the United States government for more efficient entry for those in need to enter this country, then let the two agencies get together. If the Catholic Church can better identify, house, educate, find employment, and medical care, allow the Catholic Church to set out their ways to help immigrants become productive members of society, not a burden on taxpayers or (in some cases) a menace to society. Since the Catholic Church has clergy world wide, they can be of great help in identifying need and how best to fill those needs.

What say you, rightwinger? Shall Church and State work together to lawfully smooth legal immigration into this country? Or, are you still going to fight for and support lawless entry into the United States? I've made my suggestion twice now, with no response. What is your proposal?

 

[rightwinger]

Okay. Go through immigration law and list all the intolerant points. There is a way for every immigrant, every refugee to enter into this nation lawfully. Many do. What they find intolerant are immigrants not following lawful entry.

Used to be that way
We allowed Mexican migrants to freely cross the border, pick crops, do menial labor and then return.

But then we started listening to conservatives who hate brown people. Legal access to our country became severely limited as we rejected unskilled workers.

 

[rightwinger]

What say you, rightwinger? Shall Church and State work together to lawfully smooth legal immigration into this country? Or, are you still going to fight for and support lawless entry into the United States? I've made my suggestion twice now, with no response. What is your proposal?

We rightfully have a separation of Church and State. Church has no official role in our legislation.
But they do have an obligation to speak against moral abuses. The Catholic Church has done that against abortion for 50 years. They now see a moral obligation to speak out against our immigration policies.

My proposal is to provide temporary work visas to migrants. Let them come, work the fields, make the beds, mow the lawns and earn a legal wage and pay taxes on those wages.
Those who break the laws get expelled. Those who follow the laws, pay taxes, contribute to their communities be encouraged to become citizens

 

[Meriweather]

Used to be that way

Until unions got involved. (Racism card doesn't work with me. Perhaps it is because of where I live.) My bias is that I've always loathed unions. Never-the-less they are supposed to serve a purpose, but they messed things up for migrant workers, too. Do the research.

Further, you changed the conversation from illegal immigration to migrant workers. Two different things.

 

[Meriweather]

We rightfully have a separation of Church and State. Church has no official role in our legislation.
But they do have an obligation to speak against moral abuses. The Catholic Church has done that against abortion for 50 years. They now see a moral obligation to speak out against our immigration policies.

My proposal is to provide temporary work visas to migrants. Let them come, work the fields, make the beds, mow the lawns and earn a legal wage and pay taxes on those wages.
Those who break the laws get expelled. Those who follow the laws, pay taxes, contribute to their communities be encouraged to become citizens

Again, two different topics. You are speaking of migrant workers, and I have no problem re-examining any law with either migrant workers or immigration.

It is not moral for the Church to encourage breaking the law. The Church does--and has--helped those once they get into this country. So have many lay people. The Vatican has no business telling any country to open its borders.

 

[Maxdeath]

Parish transfers in the US stopped occurring decades ago.

Yet they happened. Just as the rest of the things that I brought up. Just as the church sold dispensations.
Stopping something that should never have occurred under a religious organization helps but if they had never started and had been dealt with properly from the beginning would have been better. It appears that they only dealt with problems once they had no choice. They were willing to let these things continue, move bad apples around, hide things rather then deal with them properly.
We can only hope that the transfers stopped and they have not just become better at hiding things that put the church in a negative light.

 

[rightwinger]

Further, you changed the conversation from illegal immigration to migrant workers. Two different things.

No, they are the same thing
Those migrant laborers depended on those wages and were allowed to work and return home.

Rules were changed to where low skilled labor was denied entry and they needed to sneak in to work.

I propose we acknowledge we need a low skilled workforce and allow these people to come over and work legally

 

[Maxdeath]

No, they are the same thing
Those migrant laborers depended on those wages and were allowed to work and return home.

Rules were changed to where low skilled labor was denied entry and they needed to sneak in to work.

I propose we acknowledge we need a low skilled workforce and allow these people to come over and work legally

You are almost partially correct. We allowed documented workers to daily and even seasonally cross the border to do work. Then during the Great Depression a large number of out of work Americans saw these workers working and wanted jobs so they pushed to roll back the number of alien workers allowed to cross the border.
There are still ways to enter and work in the U.S. without being a citizen.
Try this and you will be better informed.

https://staticweb.usafacts.org/media/documents/USAFacts_2024_DIGITAL_Immigration_and_Border_Security.pdf

 

[Meriweather]

Yet they happened. Just as the rest of the things that I brought up. Just as the church sold dispensations.
Stopping something that should never have occurred under a religious organization helps but if they had never started and had been dealt with properly from the beginning would have been better. It appears that they only dealt with problems once they had no choice. They were willing to let these things continue, move bad apples around, hide things rather then deal with them properly.
We can only hope that the transfers stopped and they have not just become better at hiding things that put the church in a negative light.

As I said...psychiatric association gave the same program and message to school districts and scout clubs. The only one that got publicity at that time was the Catholic Church. Did you know by the time the light finally shifted to these other organizations, the Catholic Church was the model given on how to correct the situation.

Let's focus on the question I asked, which is why you gave up practicing the Catholic faith. For example, all of those priests were readers. Did you give up reading? Eating three meals a day? Your favorite hobby? If you had a habit of going to church, what other of your habits would you give up if other people guilty of sexual abuse had that habit or hobby? Would you give up athletics, art, music? What other beliefs would you give up because you knew a sex offender held that same belief?

A more logical answer of why one gave up the Catholic faith is that they found they held no belief in God. Or, other Christian denominations didn't practice going to church every Sunday. Or, you found Mass boring.

 

[Meriweather]

No, they are the same thing

No.

 

[Maxdeath]

As I said...psychiatric association gave the same program and message to school districts and scout clubs. The only one that got publicity at that time was the Catholic Church. Did you know by the time the light finally shifted to these other organizations, the Catholic Church was the model given on how to correct the situation.

Let's focus on the question I asked, which is why you gave up practicing the Catholic faith. For example, all of those priests were readers. Did you give up reading? Eating three meals a day? Your favorite hobby? If you had a habit of going to church, what other of your habits would you give up if other people guilty of sexual abuse had that habit or hobby? Would you give up athletics, art, music? What other beliefs would you give up because you knew a sex offender held that same belief?

A more logical answer of why one gave up the Catholic faith is that they found they held no belief in God. Or, other Christian denominations didn't practice going to church every Sunday. Or, you found Mass boring.

Exactly how many of those scout clubs, school districts were professing to be the, shall we say, the voice of Christ the savior or god?
You ask why I quit? The church pretended to be the ones that showed people to live, how to follow the path that would get you to heaven. Would lead you how to be closer to god. Yet you look at its past and you see that they not only abused their power and authority but they often were more then willing to turn a blind eye on things that were far from god like.
How many athletes, or others claim that they are the group you need to listen to to be more god like and get into heaven?

I know that the pope actually condemned the nazis for the way they were treating the Catholic Church. But I never heard of him condemning them for killing millions of Jews, mentally disabled and others. To me condemning them for these deaths while they were happening would have been much more Christ like then condemning them for the way they treated the church.

The pope was actually a part of the reason the Templars were tortured, imprisoned and killed. Again I see this as far from Christ like.

I used to watch people go to church, go to confession, until they were out of church then they were the exact opposite.
I watched a priest talk about working and how one should take pride in it and put Christ first yet they lived off the parishioners.

I do not believe that someone needs to go to any church just to be a decent person. I see many that go to church and are not decent people.

 

[Meriweather]

Exactly how many of those scout clubs, school districts were professing to be the, shall we say, the voice of Christ the savior or god?
You ask why I quit? The church pretended to be the ones that showed people to live, how to follow the path that would get you to heaven. Would lead you how to be closer to god. Yet you look at its past and you see that they not only abused their power and authority but they often were more then willing to turn a blind eye on things that were far from god like.
How many athletes, or others claim that they are the group you need to listen to to be more god like and get into heaven?

I know that the pope actually condemned the nazis for the way they were treating the Catholic Church. But I never heard of him condemning them for killing millions of Jews, mentally disabled and others. To me condemning them for these deaths while they were happening would have been much more Christ like then condemning them for the way they treated the church.

The pope was actually a part of the reason the Templars were tortured, imprisoned and killed. Again I see this as far from Christ like.

I used to watch people go to church, go to confession, until they were out of church then they were the exact opposite.
I watched a priest talk about working and how one should take pride in it and put Christ first yet they lived off the parishioners.

I do not believe that someone needs to go to any church just to be a decent person. I see many that go to church and are not decent people.

Would a correct summary be, The Catholic Church did not live up to my expectations?

Church didn't live up to mine, either, even as a child. So what. I didn't live up to my expectations, either. The true (or early) definition of 'perfect' is whole/complete. That's what we all want to be--whole and complete. No person, no agency is whole and complete. When God was creating the world, He did not murmur, "perfect" or "whole and complete". He said it was good. So while you and I--and the Church--are not perfectly whole and complete, parts of us are good. I'm not completely good--a lot of parts of me are missing. Same with the Church. And we work from there. I don't know about you, but I'm not satisfied with just being a decent person.

Did you see yourself and others as being decent in Church, but not outside of Church? I'm the opposite. Before I go to Church, my prayer is, God let me be as decent inside of Church as I am outside of Church. I may be living it backwards, but I need both places to work on being whole and complete.

 

[Maxdeath]

Would a correct summary be, The Catholic Church did not live up to my expectations?

Church didn't live up to mine, either, even as a child. So what. I didn't live up to my expectations, either. The true (or early) definition of 'perfect' is whole/complete. That's what we all want to be--whole and complete. No person, no agency is whole and complete. When God was creating the world, He did not murmur, "perfect" or "whole and complete". He said it was good. So while you and I--and the Church--are not perfectly whole and complete, parts of us are good. I'm not completely good--a lot of parts of me are missing. Same with the Church. And we work from there. I don't know about you, but I'm not satisfied with just being a decent person.

Did you see yourself and others as being decent in Church, but not outside of Church? I'm the opposite. Before I go to Church, my prayer is, God let me be as decent inside of Church as I am outside of Church. I may be living it backwards, but I need both places to work on being whole and complete.

No I actually expect a church or an organization that says we are going to help you be the best you can be to actually be at least as good as the people they are trying to point in a direction.
To put it in a way you might understand. If an organization says they are going to help the poor then they steal every penny and try to hide that would you feel that they were doing the best they could? Would you be willing to just oh well?
If a news organization says we are going to report the news but the only thing they report is stories that they make up, they report nothing that is fact would you be going oh well?

If you feel that you are better outside of church then you are in church then why would you feel a need to go?

I said I felt a person could be good simply because I do not feel that perfect or god like can be used to describe any person. You can turn the other cheek, give help to everyone, give solace to others and basically be what would be described as a saint but I am sure that there will be some thing that is not good. Something that keeps you from being perfect.
I watched people go to church and act pious then once they were out they would cheat, gossip, backbite all kinds of things. Then they would go to confess their sins and they feel they pious, and good.
Sorry but I find all churches to be far from what they claim to be.

 

[Meriweather]

No I actually expect a church or an organization that says we are going to help you be the best you can be to actually be at least as good as the people they are trying to point in a direction.
To put it in a way you might understand. If an organization says they are going to help the poor then they steal every penny and try to hide that would you feel that they were doing the best they could? Would you be willing to just oh well?
If a news organization says we are going to report the news but the only thing they report is stories that they make up, they report nothing that is fact would you be going oh well?

I have been in quite a few parishes. None of them were stealing anything, let alone money. Ironic you mention news reporting because I left that career over what they left on the cutting room floor, as the saying goes. The Church never got in the way of me--or anyone I worked with--doing the right thing.

If you feel that you are better outside of church then you are in church then why would you feel a need to go?

For the same reason I go the speed limit and stop at stoplights and stop signs. Self discipline, and because it is good for both me and those around me. Not everything is about me. In fact, very few things are.

I said I felt a person could be good simply because I do not feel that perfect or god like can be used to describe any person. You can turn the other cheek, give help to everyone, give solace to others and basically be what would be described as a saint but I am sure that there will be some thing that is not good. Something that keeps you from being perfect.

For me, it is about being the best version of myself (and myself alone) that I can be. The teachings of the Church are the best guides in doing this. They always have been.

I watched people go to church and act pious then once they were out they would cheat, gossip, backbite all kinds of things. Then they would go to confess their sins and they feel they pious, and good.
Sorry but I find all churches to be far from what they claim to be.

I guess I don't watch people in church that intently. I look at people as we all pray, "Pray for me to the Lord our God." When people ask me to pray for them, I pray for each, to the best of my ability. None of them look pious. They are there for the same reason I am...to become whole, complete--the best version of themself they can be. We do that even when we fail. We get up. We say...

Now I begin. (again)

 

[Maxdeath]

I have been in quite a few parishes. None of them were stealing anything, let alone money. Ironic you mention news reporting because I left that career over what they left on the cutting room floor, as the saying goes. The Church never got in the way of me--or anyone I worked with--doing the right thing.

For the same reason I go the speed limit and stop at stoplights and stop signs. Self discipline, and because it is good for both me and those around me. Not everything is about me. In fact, very few things are.

For me, it is about being the best version of myself (and myself alone) that I can be. The teachings of the Church are the best guides in doing this. They always have been.

I guess I don't watch people in church that intently. I look at people as we all pray, "Pray for me to the Lord our God." When people ask me to pray for them, I pray for each, to the best of my ability. None of them look pious. They are there for the same reason I am...to become whole, complete--the best version of themself they can be. We do that even when we fail. We get up. We say...

Now I begin. (again)

I have to admit you really lost out on what I wrote. I was asking if you would trust an organization if they said they were going to help the poor. There was nothing about any church in that.
I mentioned a news organization again I did not bring up a church. You read things into what I wrote because you wanted to.

You said you are better outside of church then you are in church. So exactly how are you speeding in church?

So you feel a need to have someone explain and tell you how to be good. I must say I do things like not speed because I understand why. I try to treat everyone as I want to be treated.

I watch what people do outside church because I grew up in a small community. I saw these people both in church and outside of church

 

[Meriweather]

I have to admit you really lost out on what I wrote.

I did not miss what you wrote. I offered a different perspective.