Wait a minute: The guns in Fast and Furious didn't originate from the government?

[Sallow]

Are you saying Holder is incompetent?

How do you come up with that?

To have no knowledge of an operation for as long as fast and the furious was being used, it's either incompetent or a lie. Take your pick.

Neither.

The ATF is a huge agency engaged in multiple operations. Which is why there is a hierarchy that is involved in implementing and overseeing what goes on in that capacity.

Again..there were 2 Bush holdovers involved in getting Fast and Furious up and running. They were never brought to the investigation.

And..the prosecutors refused to do their jobs.

They..were never brought before Issa.

Now why is that?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

How do you come up with that?

To have no knowledge of an operation for as long as fast and the furious was being used, it's either incompetent or a lie. Take your pick.

Neither.

The ATF is a huge agency engaged in multiple operations. Which is why there is a hierarchy that is involved in implementing and overseeing what goes on in that capacity.

Again..there were 2 Bush holdovers involved in getting Fast and Furious up and running. They were never brought to the investigation.

And..the prosecutors refused to do their jobs.

They..were never brought before Issa.

Now why is that?

oh yep blah blah blah obama blah blah blah obama blah blah blah partisan attck blah blah blah bush did it blah blah blah blah obama.
Who's in charge of the DOJ?

 

[Ravi]

How do you come up with that?

To have no knowledge of an operation for as long as fast and the furious was being used, it's either incompetent or a lie. Take your pick.

Neither.

The ATF is a huge agency engaged in multiple operations. Which is why there is a hierarchy that is involved in implementing and overseeing what goes on in that capacity.

Again..there were 2 Bush holdovers involved in getting Fast and Furious up and running. They were never brought to the investigation.

And..the prosecutors refused to do their jobs.

They..were never brought before Issa.

Now why is that?

You're arguing with a guy that thinks Obama was born in Kenya.

 

[Sallow]

No. No one thinks that. They DO think it applies to one situation and not another.

Situations, not persons.

Oh bullshit.

It was a general example.

Bush wasn't involved in Cheney's meetings with Energy heads.

Yet, executive priviledge extended to the Vice President.

Right. Because firing someone is exactly the same SITUATION as covering up putting guns in the hands of the killers of two federal agents and never doing a thing about it.

Yup. Exactly the same situation.....to retards, it is.

The situation in question is a congressional investigation. Bush exerted executive priviledge to block the release of documents to the committee. That's what Obama did as well. There is absolutely no difference.

As to your situation..no one "put" guns into anyone's hands. That's the point. These were "legal" sales that prosecutors did nothing about.

The ATF may have done little more then inform store owners they were being watched and watched people buy guns.

This whole investigation by Issa is a case of outrageous conflation.

 

[Sallow]

To have no knowledge of an operation for as long as fast and the furious was being used, it's either incompetent or a lie. Take your pick.

Neither.

The ATF is a huge agency engaged in multiple operations. Which is why there is a hierarchy that is involved in implementing and overseeing what goes on in that capacity.

Again..there were 2 Bush holdovers involved in getting Fast and Furious up and running. They were never brought to the investigation.

And..the prosecutors refused to do their jobs.

They..were never brought before Issa.

Now why is that?

oh yep blah blah blah obama blah blah blah obama blah blah blah partisan attck blah blah blah bush did it blah blah blah blah obama.
Who's in charge of the DOJ?

I find it surprising that you worked in Law enforcement.

Do you think your police chief was privvy to everything you did?

When I worked at the NYSE, the only time top executives got involved in anything we did was:

A. To take credit.
B. To lay down smack when something went wrong.

But for the most part they were clueless about almost everything we did.

 

[Liability]

Holy shit.

All they were doing..it seems, was MONITORING gun sales.

It wasn't even like Wide Reciever..where the ATF actually had the guns to begin with.

“There was no effort to get more guns to the straw purchasers,” Eban said in an interview with host Al Sharpton, summarizing her findings. “The ATF agents in question did everything that they could to seize guns, and basically prosecutors determined that they didn’t have grounds under the laws as written to seize most of the guns that wound up flowing ultimately to criminals; that is a far cry from guns being walked.”
Fortune report complicates Fast and Furious story. Writer: 'There was no effort to get more guns to the straw purchasers' - Lean Forward

So basically..they just watched the sales..went to prosecutors in Arizona to arrest these folks..and the prosecutors refused.

THAT'S THE BIG SCANDAL?

Well it is, sorta, because it's the gun nuts that kept the ATF from stopping the gun walking.

Man, you really shouldn't lap up the bullshit like that.

It makes you look almost as silly as it makes conservaderrpiederp look stupid.

ATF Agents TESTIFIED before Congress:

"What we have here is a colossal failure of leadership," said ATF agent Pete Forcelli, a supervisor in the Phoenix office. "We weren't giving guns to people for killing bear, we were giving guns to people to kill other humans. This was a catastrophic disaster."

Forcelli and fellow agents John Dodson and Olindo Casa said they repeatedly raised concerns to their bosses about the risks associated with ATF's Operation Fast and Furious, designed to dismantle large cartel trafficking networks. But, they said, their warnings were dismissed.

"We were mandated to let these guns go," Dodson said.

-- ATF agent calls gun-tracking program a 'disaster' - USATODAY.com

ATF agent John Dodson stated that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene. He testified:[63][64]

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.

-- ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [contains hyperlinks in order to verify the always doubtable Wiki]

The POINT is, KNOWING that guns were getting walked into the hands of scumbags like the Mexican drug cartel gangs, ATF and the dipshits at DoJ chose to sit on their hands, have agents jot some ******* notes and not DO a ******* thing to interdict the gun trafficking.

And we know why they made this political choice, too. Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

We ALSO know that AG Holder KNEW about it BEFORE he claimed to have known about it.
ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

 

[Liability]

Oh bullshit.

It was a general example.

Bush wasn't involved in Cheney's meetings with Energy heads.

Yet, executive priviledge extended to the Vice President.

Right. Because firing someone is exactly the same SITUATION as covering up putting guns in the hands of the killers of two federal agents and never doing a thing about it.

Yup. Exactly the same situation.....to retards, it is.

The situation in question is a congressional investigation. Bush exerted executive priviledge to block the release of documents to the committee. That's what Obama did as well. There is absolutely no difference.

As to your situation..no one "put" guns into anyone's hands. That's the point. These were "legal" sales that prosecutors did nothing about.

The ATF may have done little more then inform store owners they were being watched and watched people buy guns.

This whole investigation by Issa is a case of outrageous conflation.

Wrong. ASSERTING a claim of Executive Privilege for log books of individuals who are meeting with the VP FOR policy discussions is NOT akin to asserting it over the documents of a department and agency not involving the Office of the President or Vice President.

 

[Sallow]

Holy shit.

All they were doing..it seems, was MONITORING gun sales.

It wasn't even like Wide Reciever..where the ATF actually had the guns to begin with.

“There was no effort to get more guns to the straw purchasers,” Eban said in an interview with host Al Sharpton, summarizing her findings. “The ATF agents in question did everything that they could to seize guns, and basically prosecutors determined that they didn’t have grounds under the laws as written to seize most of the guns that wound up flowing ultimately to criminals; that is a far cry from guns being walked.”
Fortune report complicates Fast and Furious story. Writer: 'There was no effort to get more guns to the straw purchasers' - Lean Forward

So basically..they just watched the sales..went to prosecutors in Arizona to arrest these folks..and the prosecutors refused.

THAT'S THE BIG SCANDAL?

Well it is, sorta, because it's the gun nuts that kept the ATF from stopping the gun walking.

Man, you really shouldn't lap up the bullshit like that.

It makes you look almost as silly as it makes conservaderrpiederp look stupid.

ATF Agents TESTIFIED before Congress:

"What we have here is a colossal failure of leadership," said ATF agent Pete Forcelli, a supervisor in the Phoenix office. "We weren't giving guns to people for killing bear, we were giving guns to people to kill other humans. This was a catastrophic disaster."

Forcelli and fellow agents John Dodson and Olindo Casa said they repeatedly raised concerns to their bosses about the risks associated with ATF's Operation Fast and Furious, designed to dismantle large cartel trafficking networks. But, they said, their warnings were dismissed.

"We were mandated to let these guns go," Dodson said.

-- ATF agent calls gun-tracking program a 'disaster' - USATODAY.com

ATF agent John Dodson stated that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene. He testified:[63][64]

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.

-- ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [contains hyperlinks in order to verify the always doubtable Wiki]

The POINT is, KNOWING that guns were getting walked into the hands of scumbags like the Mexican drug cartel gangs, ATF and the dipshits at DoJ chose to sit on their hands, have agents jot some ******* notes and not DO a ******* thing to interdict the gun trafficking.

And we know why they made this political choice, too. Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

We ALSO know that AG Holder KNEW about it BEFORE he claimed to have known about it.
ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Except the guns did not originate from the government..as they did with Wide Receiver.

The "Gun Walked" guns..were private sales.

This is just as specious as the argument that "Fast and Furious" guns were used to kill Terry.

That's not the case at all.

 

[GuyPinestra]

Holy shit.

All they were doing..it seems, was MONITORING gun sales.

It wasn't even like Wide Reciever..where the ATF actually had the guns to begin with.



So basically..they just watched the sales..went to prosecutors in Arizona to arrest these folks..and the prosecutors refused.

THAT'S THE BIG SCANDAL?

Well it is, sorta, because it's the gun nuts that kept the ATF from stopping the gun walking.

Man, you really shouldn't lap up the bullshit like that.

It makes you look almost as silly as it makes conservaderrpiederp look stupid.

ATF Agents TESTIFIED before Congress: -- ATF agent calls gun-tracking program a 'disaster' - USATODAY.com

ATF agent John Dodson stated that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene. He testified:[63][64]

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.

-- ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [contains hyperlinks in order to verify the always doubtable Wiki]

The POINT is, KNOWING that guns were getting walked into the hands of scumbags like the Mexican drug cartel gangs, ATF and the dipshits at DoJ chose to sit on their hands, have agents jot some ******* notes and not DO a ******* thing to interdict the gun trafficking.

And we know why they made this political choice, too. Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

We ALSO know that AG Holder KNEW about it BEFORE he claimed to have known about it.
ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Except the guns did not originate from the government..as they did with Wide Reciever.

The "Gun Walked" guns..were private sales.

This is just as specious as the argument that "Fast and Furious" guns were used to kill Terry.

That's not the case at all.

STRAWMAN ALERT!!! Nobody has claimed the the guns ORIGINATED with the government, Sallow.

In EITHER operation....

 

[Liability]

Holy shit.

All they were doing..it seems, was MONITORING gun sales.

It wasn't even like Wide Reciever..where the ATF actually had the guns to begin with.



So basically..they just watched the sales..went to prosecutors in Arizona to arrest these folks..and the prosecutors refused.

THAT'S THE BIG SCANDAL?

Well it is, sorta, because it's the gun nuts that kept the ATF from stopping the gun walking.

Man, you really shouldn't lap up the bullshit like that.

It makes you look almost as silly as it makes conservaderrpiederp look stupid.

ATF Agents TESTIFIED before Congress: -- ATF agent calls gun-tracking program a 'disaster' - USATODAY.com

ATF agent John Dodson stated that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene. He testified:[63][64]

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.

-- ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [contains hyperlinks in order to verify the always doubtable Wiki]

The POINT is, KNOWING that guns were getting walked into the hands of scumbags like the Mexican drug cartel gangs, ATF and the dipshits at DoJ chose to sit on their hands, have agents jot some ******* notes and not DO a ******* thing to interdict the gun trafficking.

And we know why they made this political choice, too. Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

We ALSO know that AG Holder KNEW about it BEFORE he claimed to have known about it.
ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Except the guns did not originate from the government..as they did with Wide Reciever.

The "Gun Walked" guns..were private sales.

This is just as specious as the argument that "Fast and Furious" guns were used to kill Terry.

That's not the case at all.

"Except" nothing.

It is not ok for the government to sit by idly and permit guns to be walked into the hands of the Mexican murderous drug cartels, especially when they should be interdicting such shit as the laws require.

And this is particularly true when they are allowing the guns to walk for such stupid political reasons.

Agent Terry is dead and lots of Mexicans are dead BECAUSE ATF enabled this imbecility.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Neither.

The ATF is a huge agency engaged in multiple operations. Which is why there is a hierarchy that is involved in implementing and overseeing what goes on in that capacity.

Again..there were 2 Bush holdovers involved in getting Fast and Furious up and running. They were never brought to the investigation.

And..the prosecutors refused to do their jobs.

They..were never brought before Issa.

Now why is that?

oh yep blah blah blah obama blah blah blah obama blah blah blah partisan attck blah blah blah bush did it blah blah blah blah obama.
Who's in charge of the DOJ?

I find it surprising that you worked in Law enforcement.

Do you think your police chief was privvy to everything you did?

When I worked at the NYSE, the only time top executives got involved in anything we did was:

A. To take credit.
B. To lay down smack when something went wrong.

But for the most part they were clueless about almost everything we did.

Do you think your police chief was privvy to everything you did?

Yes they are.

When I worked at the NYSE, the only time top executives got involved in anything we did was

You're comparing the New York Stock Exchange to law enforcement function?

 

[Si modo]

Holy shit.

All they were doing..it seems, was MONITORING gun sales.

It wasn't even like Wide Reciever..where the ATF actually had the guns to begin with.



So basically..they just watched the sales..went to prosecutors in Arizona to arrest these folks..and the prosecutors refused.

THAT'S THE BIG SCANDAL?

Well it is, sorta, because it's the gun nuts that kept the ATF from stopping the gun walking.

Man, you really shouldn't lap up the bullshit like that.

It makes you look almost as silly as it makes conservaderrpiederp look stupid.

ATF Agents TESTIFIED before Congress: -- ATF agent calls gun-tracking program a 'disaster' - USATODAY.com

ATF agent John Dodson stated that he and other agents were ordered to observe the activities of gun smugglers but not to intervene. He testified:[63][64]

Over the course of the next 10 months that I was involved in this operation, we monitored as they purchased hand guns, AK-47 variants, and .50 caliber rifles almost daily. Rather than conduct any enforcement actions, we took notes, we recorded observations, we tracked movements of these individuals for a short time after their purchases, but nothing more. Knowing all the while, just days after these purchases, the guns that we saw these individuals buy would begin turning up at crime scenes in the United States and Mexico, we still did nothing. ...
I cannot begin to think of how the risk of letting guns fall into the hands of known criminals could possibly advance any legitimate law enforcement interest.

-- ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [contains hyperlinks in order to verify the always doubtable Wiki]

The POINT is, KNOWING that guns were getting walked into the hands of scumbags like the Mexican drug cartel gangs, ATF and the dipshits at DoJ chose to sit on their hands, have agents jot some ******* notes and not DO a ******* thing to interdict the gun trafficking.

And we know why they made this political choice, too. Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

We ALSO know that AG Holder KNEW about it BEFORE he claimed to have known about it.
ATF Fast and Furious: New documents show Attorney General Eric Holder was briefed in July 2010 - CBS News Investigates - CBS News

Except the guns did not originate from the government..as they did with Wide Receiver.

The "Gun Walked" guns..were private sales.

This is just as specious as the argument that "Fast and Furious" guns were used to kill Terry.

That's not the case at all.

So the guns didn't originate from the government (in either Wide Receiver or Fast and Furious). Yeah. We all know that. And, no one has said that they originated from the government because we know they didn't.

So the **** what?

That has zero to do with the actual issue and no one, except you, has said it ever did have anything to do with the actual issue.

As far as the guns used to kill Brian Terry, we know that at least two of the guns at the scene of the crime were F and F guns. The rest of the information is in dispute between two agencies.

We also know that the second murder of a federal agent months later also involved walked guns.

Who the **** cares that the guns didn't originate from the government in either operation? It's irrelevant. It's like you're saying that you took a piss this morning thus Holder did nothing wrong.

 

[uscitizen]

One thing is certain.
All sides have muddied this up so that whatever the truth is few will believe it.
They will believe the aspects that support their political beliefs.

 

[LilOlLady]

It began iwth NRA and the Right's Right to Bear Arms law and it continuing to walk guns. It started with Operation Wide Receiver in the Bush administration and with the Good ol Boys.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

It began iwth NRA and the Right's Right to Bear Arms law and it continuing to walk guns. It started with Operation Wide Receiver in the Bush administration and with the Good ol Boys.

Repeat flip and repeat lie is still a lie.

 

[Si modo]

It began iwth NRA and the Right's Right to Bear Arms law and it continuing to walk guns. It started with Operation Wide Receiver in the Bush administration and with the Good ol Boys.

"It" what?

Antecedents are not optional.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

One thing is certain.
All sides have muddied this up so that whatever the truth is few will believe it.
They will believe the aspects that support their political beliefs.

I'm not that partisan to believe that.

 

[uscitizen]

One thing is certain.
All sides have muddied this up so that whatever the truth is few will believe it.
They will believe the aspects that support their political beliefs.

I'm not that partisan to believe that.

Now that is funny!

 

[R.D.]

It began iwth NRA and the Right's Right to Bear Arms law and it continuing to walk guns. It started with Operation Wide Receiver in the Bush administration and with the Good ol Boys.

Page 8 and you jump in with that?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

One thing is certain.
All sides have muddied this up so that whatever the truth is few will believe it.
They will believe the aspects that support their political beliefs.

I'm not that partisan to believe that.

Now that is funny!

I've beat up bush and romney as much as I have defended them.
Unlike democrats. they seem to evaded those topics on obama that make obama look bad.