Vermont Going To Single Payer By 2017. Kicking Health Insurance Companies Out

[rdean]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

I missed the links to that. You are much too smart to rely only on hearsay. So go ahead and post the links.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Every person should have access to good care no matter what their economic standing. So if the ACA doesn't work, then present something better. Just endure that a poor person has the same exact access to the best doctors as a billionaire does. That should be a guarantee.

Why ?

Because economics is a man made entity. We invented money, some people are saying because you have more of this man made entity you deserve to life more than someone else.

The Christian Right are believing in a false god no more better than the golden calf.

Why is it right that a single stockbroker deserves life more than a guy hold two jobs supporting his family of three kids.

I am sorry but while our capitalist model has advantages don't confuse it as being perfect in a god like way.

So while you complain society can be fair and equitable, some believe that society that look after each other are more advanced than ones that don't. Look at human rights, pollution....

Universal Healthcare is a hallmark of higher functioning society.

Hhhhmmmm.....

So which is the tail and which is the dog ?

And let's address this question. If you were to look at two systems, one with equal access and one with unequal access....stay with me.....and the worst care in the unequal system was still better than the best care in the equal system.....

Which would be better ?

Just answer the question. Don't deflect.

Yeah, just answer the question, because you know that your question is biased.

The United States might have had some of the best care, but only the very rich could access that best care.....so your analogy falls flat on its face. The poor people had to settle for going to the ER in order to get help....most of the time too late, but I know, you don't care about the poor people. There's your answer.

I live in a community with a lot of Canadian snowbirds. And yeah....only the rich can avoid the best care in Canada as well.

They have a two tier health system, just like the U.S. Their basic care is like Medicaid in the States. Folks with any kind of money buy private insurance and go to different (and better) hospitals and doctors. My understanding is the same system exists in the UK.

Please don't be fooled. Universal healthcare....wherever it exists....basically sucks.

 

[Darkwind]

Under a single-payer system, there is no role for health insurance companies such as Aetna and Cigna as the government pays all the medical bills. Many hope that the United States will implement a single-payer system.

Obviously they haven't lived under a Single Payer system, as without private hospitals and insurers there is no way for people to escape waiting lists or for the government to fund private clinics (when there is not enough capacity nearby)

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

The bordering states around Vermont are going to get an influx of medical professionals.

Single payer systems always pay below the market value for services. What doctor, nurse, or other professional will willingly take a 50% or more cut in compensation?

Not true, in fact the reverse as usually there are health services unions. Also general bureaucracy and regulations add costs to the system. But all in all you don't see it as it collectively paid through income taxes, payroll taxes or levies - and no government is going to advertise government waste if I wants another term.

Not true? Have you been living in a cave?

There is a growing trend among doctors and other healthcare providers to stop accepting medicaid/medicare because they pay well below common acceptable scale.

In a state where everyone is on the single payer, a lower scale than the rest of the private sector, healthcare professionals will flee for better environments.

 

[Listening]

Every person should have access to good care no matter what their economic standing. So if the ACA doesn't work, then present something better. Just endure that a poor person has the same exact access to the best doctors as a billionaire does. That should be a guarantee.

Why ?

Because economics is a man made entity. We invented money, some people are saying because you have more of this man made entity you deserve to life more than someone else.

The Christian Right are believing in a false god no more better than the golden calf.

Why is it right that a single stockbroker deserves life more than a guy hold two jobs supporting his family of three kids.

I am sorry but while our capitalist model has advantages don't confuse it as being perfect in a god like way.

So while you complain society can be fair and equitable, some believe that society that look after each other are more advanced than ones that don't. Look at human rights, pollution....

Universal Healthcare is a hallmark of higher functioning society.

Hhhhmmmm.....

So which is the tail and which is the dog ?

And let's address this question. If you were to look at two systems, one with equal access and one with unequal access....stay with me.....and the worst care in the unequal system was still better than the best care in the equal system.....

Which would be better ?

Just answer the question. Don't deflect.

Yeah, just answer the question, because you know that your question is biased.

The United States might have had some of the best care, but only the very rich could access that best care.....so your analogy falls flat on its face. The poor people had to settle for going to the ER in order to get help....most of the time too late, but I know, you don't care about the poor people. There's your answer.

I live in a community with a lot of Canadian snowbirds. And yeah....only the rich can avoid the best care in Canada as well.

They have a two tier health system, just like the U.S. Their basic care is like Medicaid in the States. Folks with any kind of money buy private insurance and go to different (and better) hospitals and doctors. My understanding is the same system exists in the UK.

Please don't be fooled. Universal healthcare....wherever it exists....basically sucks.

Yes, well facts just don't make it with madam dumbass.

From what I've read (and heard from Canadians) most big companies offer private health insurance as a perk. So why would they need to do that if Canada was so great ?

To be fair, they'd never trade their system for ours (but then again, you should hear some of the shit they are being fed about our health care system).

Then there were the folks from B.C. that had to travel to Tacoma for medical work. Seems the hospitals in Vancouver were filling up so B.C. literally rented a couple of floors from a hospital in the states to handle the overflow. Everyone who went to that hospital were pretty impressed with the care they received (quality and attention) compared to what they got in the provinces.

I don't bash other systems. But this was somewhat telling.

 

[blackhawk]

Good for them as long as the only one's picking up the cost for that free healthcare are the taxpayers of Vermont which they will have to do when there are more covered than paying in knock yourself out Vermont.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I think it's great! Let Vermont health care collapse and no federal bail out.

 

[lutraphile]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

The 20 countries with the highest 20 life expectancies have something in common: Universal health care. The wait time thing is largely a myth. They exist, sure, but for emergency procedures it is generally not an issue.

And for all the people talking about cost, Americans pay more for health care per capita than ANY other country. EIGHTEEN percent of our GDP. The next highest is twelve.

Privatization of a health care system is inherently bad. When your life is in the hand of a company for which denying you care is in their best interest, no one ever worries about corporate tax rates. A shame that Shumlin is caving to political pressure.

 

[Listening]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

The 20 countries with the highest 20 life expectancies have something in common: Universal health care. The wait time thing is largely a myth. They exist, sure, but for emergency procedures it is generally not an issue.

And for all the people talking about cost, Americans pay more for health care per capita than ANY other country. EIGHTEEN percent of our GDP. The next highest is twelve.

Privatization of a health care system is inherently bad. When your life is in the hand of a company for which denying you care is in their best interest, no one ever worries about corporate tax rates. A shame that Shumlin is caving to political pressure.

Do they offer this as a tatoo for morons who actually believe it ?

I mean, all this bullshit has been dispelled time and time again...but somehow people have to keep spouting it.

 

[The Rabbi]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

The 20 countries with the highest 20 life expectancies have something in common: Universal health care. The wait time thing is largely a myth. They exist, sure, but for emergency procedures it is generally not an issue.

And for all the people talking about cost, Americans pay more for health care per capita than ANY other country. EIGHTEEN percent of our GDP. The next highest is twelve.

Privatization of a health care system is inherently bad. When your life is in the hand of a company for which denying you care is in their best interest, no one ever worries about corporate tax rates. A shame that Shumlin is caving to political pressure.

Do they offer this as a tatoo for morons who actually believe it ?

I mean, all this bullshit has been dispelled time and time again...but somehow people have to keep spouting it.

They're slow learners, is all I can say.
Every Euro system is overwhelmed with exploding costs from their aging populations. They aer all tryng to reform their systems before they run out of money entirely.
In any case, Europe is not the US. You cant compare the two.
VT, which is the US, tried single payer and abandoned it because it was too expensive.
Hint: Single payer is still a failure.

 

[The Rabbi]

Good for them as long as the only one's picking up the cost for that free healthcare are the taxpayers of Vermont which they will have to do when there are more covered than paying in knock yourself out Vermont.

You missed my post.
There will be no single payer in Vermont. They scrapped the idea when it became apparent it would cost too much.

 

[RKMBrown]

I think it's great! Let Vermont health care collapse and no federal bail out.

Won't happen the feds bail everything out.

 

[lutraphile]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

The 20 countries with the highest 20 life expectancies have something in common: Universal health care. The wait time thing is largely a myth. They exist, sure, but for emergency procedures it is generally not an issue.

And for all the people talking about cost, Americans pay more for health care per capita than ANY other country. EIGHTEEN percent of our GDP. The next highest is twelve.

Privatization of a health care system is inherently bad. When your life is in the hand of a company for which denying you care is in their best interest, no one ever worries about corporate tax rates. A shame that Shumlin is caving to political pressure.

Do they offer this as a tatoo for morons who actually believe it ?

I mean, all this bullshit has been dispelled time and time again...but somehow people have to keep spouting it.

They're slow learners, is all I can say.
Every Euro system is overwhelmed with exploding costs from their aging populations. They aer all tryng to reform their systems before they run out of money entirely.
In any case, Europe is not the US. You cant compare the two.
VT, which is the US, tried single payer and abandoned it because it was too expensive.
Hint: Single payer is still a failure.

Single payer has been an enormous success in Europe. For all the tales of terror about the NHS from the media, the British public loves it even after it encountered problems the last couple of years. In a Gallup poll, 72% of Americans were dissatisfied with the lack of affordable health care, compared to 41% of Canadians and 52% of Britons. Maybe taxes will have to be raised, but so what? As the American population ages, our government-controlled systems will have to do the same, and insurance costs will probably rise as well. That's not a problem with the system, that's just adjusting to people living longer, which thankfully is happening everywhere.

 

[RKMBrown]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

The 20 countries with the highest 20 life expectancies have something in common: Universal health care. The wait time thing is largely a myth. They exist, sure, but for emergency procedures it is generally not an issue.

And for all the people talking about cost, Americans pay more for health care per capita than ANY other country. EIGHTEEN percent of our GDP. The next highest is twelve.

Privatization of a health care system is inherently bad. When your life is in the hand of a company for which denying you care is in their best interest, no one ever worries about corporate tax rates. A shame that Shumlin is caving to political pressure.

Do they offer this as a tatoo for morons who actually believe it ?

I mean, all this bullshit has been dispelled time and time again...but somehow people have to keep spouting it.

They're slow learners, is all I can say.
Every Euro system is overwhelmed with exploding costs from their aging populations. They aer all tryng to reform their systems before they run out of money entirely.
In any case, Europe is not the US. You cant compare the two.
VT, which is the US, tried single payer and abandoned it because it was too expensive.
Hint: Single payer is still a failure.

Single payer has been an enormous success in Europe. For all the tales of terror about the NHS from the media, the British public loves it even after it encountered problems the last couple of years. In a Gallup poll, 72% of Americans were dissatisfied with the lack of affordable health care, compared to 41% of Canadians and 52% of Britons. Maybe taxes will have to be raised, but so what? As the American population ages, our government-controlled systems will have to do the same, and insurance costs will probably rise as well. That's not a problem with the system, that's just adjusting to people living longer, which thankfully is happening everywhere.

ROFL what a dumb ass. And in other news scum bags that don't like to work like free shit.

 

[The Rabbi]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

The 20 countries with the highest 20 life expectancies have something in common: Universal health care. The wait time thing is largely a myth. They exist, sure, but for emergency procedures it is generally not an issue.

And for all the people talking about cost, Americans pay more for health care per capita than ANY other country. EIGHTEEN percent of our GDP. The next highest is twelve.

Privatization of a health care system is inherently bad. When your life is in the hand of a company for which denying you care is in their best interest, no one ever worries about corporate tax rates. A shame that Shumlin is caving to political pressure.

Do they offer this as a tatoo for morons who actually believe it ?

I mean, all this bullshit has been dispelled time and time again...but somehow people have to keep spouting it.

They're slow learners, is all I can say.
Every Euro system is overwhelmed with exploding costs from their aging populations. They aer all tryng to reform their systems before they run out of money entirely.
In any case, Europe is not the US. You cant compare the two.
VT, which is the US, tried single payer and abandoned it because it was too expensive.
Hint: Single payer is still a failure.

Single payer has been an enormous success in Europe. For all the tales of terror about the NHS from the media, the British public loves it even after it encountered problems the last couple of years. In a Gallup poll, 72% of Americans were dissatisfied with the lack of affordable health care, compared to 41% of Canadians and 52% of Britons. Maybe taxes will have to be raised, but so what? As the American population ages, our government-controlled systems will have to do the same, and insurance costs will probably rise as well. That's not a problem with the system, that's just adjusting to people living longer, which thankfully is happening everywhere.

Single payer is dead. Deal with it.

 

[lutraphile]

You both fail to refute the figures- that these nations pay less, receive better care, live longer. Just ad hominem attacks and oblique statements.

I am sure a movement towards single payer will return, since younger voters are those who most support it. And, by the way, a plurality of Vermonters still support single payer, which makes it all the more infuriating it is being abandoned.

 

[The Rabbi]

You both fail to refute the figures- that these nations pay less, receive better care, live longer. Just ad hominem attacks and oblique statements.

I am sure a movement towards single payer will return, since younger voters are those who most support it. And, by the way, a plurality of Vermonters still support single payer, which makes it all the more infuriating it is being abandoned.

Single payer is dead. What about that do you not understand?
As for your posts, it cherry picks factoids and ignores significant differences between the populatons of Europe and the US.

 

[Katzndogz]

Most of the countries in Europe never had true single payer. Cuba has true single payer but the people live on $20.00 a month. Europe has always had a system where everyone paid into the system and still had private insurance for better care.

Up until recently Europe could do this. They had low immigration and a low poverty rate. As immigration rose and socialism robbed people of motivation supporting a single payer system is much harder and much more expensive. Government benefits and high immigration of the non skilled is threatening France, Spain, Italy and Great Britain. Sweden and Denmark are trying to bail out those sinking ships before they are swamped.

Single payer health care like socialism only works until you run out of other people's money. Then you start killing the old and the sick.

 

[asterism]

And they will experience delays in treatment and more needless deaths, just like European countries and the VA.
Why anyone thinks this is an advance is beyond me.

That is horse pucky.....the military doesn't have any problem obtaining doctors and they pay way less what a doctor makes in civilian life. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps doctors in civilian life are taking advantage of you? Of course not....but as a conservative, you love the military, don't you?

The military has had a huge problem for a long time.

Critical Shortage of Army Neurologists for U.S. Troops in Iraq and Afghanistan - ProPublica
Military MD Shortage at Home WIRED
It Is Just Not Walter Reed
Military doctor recruiting takes wartime hit - amednews.com
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1491564/pdf/cmaj00135-0013b.pdf
Military s mental-health system faces shortage of providers lack of good diagnostic tools - The Washington Post
The Palm Beach Post - Google News Archive Search
Critical Shortage Of Doctors In Military Hospitals News Get Latest News on Symptoms Causes Treatment of Critical Shortage Of Doctors In Military Hospitals Disease TheHealthSite.com

 

[Listening]

You both fail to refute the figures- that these nations pay less, receive better care, live longer. Just ad hominem attacks and oblique statements.

I am sure a movement towards single payer will return, since younger voters are those who most support it. And, by the way, a plurality of Vermonters still support single payer, which makes it all the more infuriating it is being abandoned.

That's great. Why didn't the governor go forward with it.

As many of us stated in on the other thread...it's great they are trying. We should all learn from what they find to be successful.

Other nations receive better care.....can you help us out with that one.

As soon as I pick myself up from ROTFLMAO, I'll be interested to read it.

 

[RKMBrown]

You both fail to refute the figures- that these nations pay less, receive better care, live longer. Just ad hominem attacks and oblique statements.

I am sure a movement towards single payer will return, since younger voters are those who most support it. And, by the way, a plurality of Vermonters still support single payer, which makes it all the more infuriating it is being abandoned.

You're full of shit. They pay double what we pay for half the quality and have to effing wait in line. You're idea of cheaper is what a 70% of your income in total taxes? ROFL

UK taxes: 40 per cent of their GDP. ROFL for people with a decent level of income their taxes are "crippling."