Zone1 USSC to hear racial discrimination in education case today

[IM2]

You teach it as History. All the history. The bad and all those who sacrificed nd risked and sometimes gave all to change the ugliest parts of the history so that the present is far better.

That Holocaust survivor told us of the Russian Army liberating them. The Russians have a horrendous history of brutal and unconscionable treatment of the Jews, but the soldiers in the Red Army in Poland gave the freed prisoners food, clean water, treated them medically as best they could and were exceedingly kind. So should Jewish children be taught only of the brutality and injustice inflicted on them by the Russians and not also be taught the sacrifice and caring and concern of those who rescued them from a more recent horror?

I urge you to read the writings of Shelby Steele, Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, and William Raspberry et al all who grew up during segregation and the Jim Crow laws and how they chose not to make that part of their past the defining component of their present. How they fully understood that those who teach and encourage people to remain angry and defensive and victims will never achieve their full potential. Those who demand or encourage people to focus on that do them a tremendous disservice.

Why do you guys tell people to read these losers? We aren't talking about the past racism exists NOW and that along with the fact that damage created by that racism has not been fixed is the problem. Nobody is teaching anybody to be angry and defensive, and there is no such thing as black victimhood. Nobody is demanding or encouraging people to do what you claim. You are exhibiting the same white pathology of denial that made Samuel Cartwright devise a medical condition called drapetomania. Go read about it then recognize how silly your opinion is in regard to blacks.

 

[IM2]

Those who teach their children to see themselves as victims of whatever and not appreciate that they no longer have to be that are setting their kids up to go through what the parents did.

I much appreciated Raspberry as an intelligent and thoughtful liberal commentator because they are so rare it seems. I've missed him since he retired. But I encourage you to balance his perspective with Steele, Sowell, Williams and a few others who have devoted their lives helping others be the best they can be.

Nobody teaches their children that. Steele, Sowell and Walter Williams have done a disservice to blacks and they enable people like you to deny the holistic effects of white racism on blacks.

 

[IM2]

Again I tried. And I did it without being petty, insulting, and ad hominem. But you gotta be you I guess. Again, do have a pleasant evening.

Except your comments were offensive petty, insulting, and they were indeed ad hominems. Get rid of the paternalism and understand that you can't tell a black person what it's like to be black, nor do you have any solutions to offer as long as you believe what you do.

 

[Coyote]

Those who teach their children to see themselves as victims of whatever and not appreciate that they no longer have to be that are setting their kids up to go through what the parents did.

But do they? There is this assumption they do.

I much appreciated Raspberry as an intelligent and thoughtful liberal commentator because they are so rare it seems. I've missed him since he retired. But I encourage you to balance his perspective with Steele, Sowell, Williams and a few others who have devoted their lives helping others be the best they can be.

.I will

 

[IM2]

No one suggests anybody should forget. We all should know the history of those who went before us and our own history, all of the history, the good and the bad. We should learn how to avoid repeating the bad part of the past and why the good parts were effective and how we might better live in our present and future.

We should recognize that history is continuous and individuals such as yourself should learn that white racism exists now, in the present. Just because you don't see no blacks allowed signs or white and colored drinking fountains doesn't mean racism is gone. You see it here every day by many of the members here.

 

[IM2]

But do they? There is this assumption they do.



.I will

I have read all of those guys. They do nothing but reinforce white racist perceptions of black people and blame blacks for how things are instead of detailing the many things the U.S. government at every level have done. These guys have only made things worse.

Raspberry might be the most realistic, but even he does far too much accomodating.

 

[IM2]

Now let me show you guys 3 examples, one from Sowell, one from Steele, and one from Williams.

“More dangerous than these highly publicized episodes over the years are innumerable organized and unprovoked physical attacks on whites by young black gangs in shopping malls, on beaches, and in other public places all across the country today. While some of these attacks make it into the media as isolated incidents, the nationwide pattern of organized black-on-white attacks by thugs remains invisible in the mainstream media, with the notable exception of Bill O’Reilly on the Fox News Channel.” -Thomas Sowell, 2013

Here you see that Sowell claimed that a race war had begun against whites by blacks. Thomas Sowell is responsible for making life more dangerous for black people in America. The racist subculture uses his irresponsible rhetoric as high-level intellectual thought. When you are black and suggest to whites how blacks are starting a race war with them, you invite problems that no one black should be facing. When you know that your audience consists of white right-wing extremists and you state how they are under attack from blacks and the media hides it, you invite and should be held criminally responsible for the hate crimes you have created. There is a very long history of violence perpetrated against blacks by whites throughout US history. Most of it came from whites feeling threatened. Sowell is a black man stoking and validating those same fears. But this is who foxfyre thinks is doing good positive work.

Then, you have Shelby Steele. Here we have another black man who lived through segregation, saying that blacks struggle now because we were “unprepared for freedom.”

Steele wrote a book titled, “White Guilt, How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era.” I have generally refused to buy books from people like Steele because I believe that giving them income is counterproductive to race and human relations in this country. The more books they sell, the more crazy stuff they write, enabling members of the racist subculture to believe what they think is true.

Consider his opinion in this example.

“Because white guilt is a vacuum of moral authority; it makes the moral authority of whites and the legitimacy of American institutions contingent upon proving a negative: that they are not racist. The great power of white guilt comes from the fact that it functions by stigma, like racism itself. Whites and American institutions are stigmatized as racist until they prove otherwise.”

Maybe it’s because I am nowhere as intelligent as Steele is supposed to be, but in my view, his words make no sense. None. Zero. Zilch. Null. Nada. What moral authority did whites lose? Does Steele even consider that a behavior enforced by a series of laws and policies from approximately 1619 until 1965 might be the reason for whatever “stigma” he claims? Would actions done due to racism be a reason to disqualify institutions that maintain a system built on white supremacy? Is holding individuals and institutions accountable to end racism creating a stigma? Does the continuing racism that we see have anything to do with society today?

“I think one of the cruelest things a society can do is to take the best and the brightest young black Americans and basically say to them you simply cannot compete with the best and brightest of other races. We won’t allow you to do that. You can’t do it. You have to depend on our paternalism.” -Shelby Steele

When a black person makes a comment like this, you must ask if they are participating in the use of crack. Steele is a man who lived his first nineteen years of life during legalized Jim Crow. His undergraduate work was done in a small, predominantly white college. Steele did his graduate study at the University of Utah. Today he opposes Affirmative Action. Did it ever cross his mind that maybe, just maybe, he was admitted into any of those schools thanks to Affirmative Action? Was Steele oblivious to everything that was going on around him? Did Steele miss how whites could not compete without rigging the system in their favor?

Whites were getting them all around him, and they didn’t seem to have any problems. It has been this type of thinking that has hindered racial progress in this country.

The late Walter Williams was another favorite black to the white racist subculture. Besides his work as an “educator,” Walter Williams denial of reality is evident in two articles he posted at Townhall.com, one dated Jun 13, 2018, and the second dated June 27, 2018. They were titled “Diversity and Inclusion Harm Part 1 and 2.”

The following quote is from part one:
“In conversations with most college officials, many CEOs, many politicians and race hustlers, it’s not long before the magical words “diversity” and “inclusiveness” drop from their lips. Racial minorities are the intended targets of this sociological largesse, but women are included, as well. This obsession with diversity and inclusion is in the process of leading the nation to decline in a number of areas.”

Williams was a black man who served as a professor at a private majority-white university. Without a diversity and inclusion program, he would not have been hired for that job.

Whites such as Foxfyre like these guys because they do not hold those responsible for the problem to account. Instead they blame blacks for problems blacks did not create and that makes people like Foxfyre feel good.

 

[Coyote]

Now let me show you guys 3 examples, one from Sowell, one from Steele, and one from Williams.

“More dangerous than these highly publicized episodes over the years are innumerable organized and unprovoked physical attacks on whites by young black gangs in shopping malls, on beaches, and in other public places all across the country today. While some of these attacks make it into the media as isolated incidents, the nationwide pattern of organized black-on-white attacks by thugs remains invisible in the mainstream media, with the notable exception of Bill O’Reilly on the Fox News Channel.” -Thomas Sowell, 2013

Here you see that Sowell claimed that a race war had begun against whites by blacks. Thomas Sowell is responsible for making life more dangerous for black people in America. The racist subculture uses his irresponsible rhetoric as high-level intellectual thought. When you are black and suggest to whites how blacks are starting a race war with them, you invite problems that no one black should be facing. When you know that your audience consists of white right-wing extremists and you state how they are under attack from blacks and the media hides it, you invite and should be held criminally responsible for the hate crimes you have created. There is a very long history of violence perpetrated against blacks by whites throughout US history. Most of it came from whites feeling threatened. Sowell is a black man stoking and validating those same fears. But this is who foxfyre thinks is doing good positive work.

Then, you have Shelby Steele. Here we have another black man who lived through segregation, saying that blacks struggle now because we were “unprepared for freedom.”

Steele wrote a book titled, “White Guilt, How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era.” I have generally refused to buy books from people like Steele because I believe that giving them income is counterproductive to race and human relations in this country. The more books they sell, the more crazy stuff they write, enabling members of the racist subculture to believe what they think is true.

Consider his opinion in this example.

“Because white guilt is a vacuum of moral authority; it makes the moral authority of whites and the legitimacy of American institutions contingent upon proving a negative: that they are not racist. The great power of white guilt comes from the fact that it functions by stigma, like racism itself. Whites and American institutions are stigmatized as racist until they prove otherwise.”

Maybe it’s because I am nowhere as intelligent as Steele is supposed to be, but in my view, his words make no sense. None. Zero. Zilch. Null. Nada. What moral authority did whites lose? Does Steele even consider that a behavior enforced by a series of laws and policies from approximately 1619 until 1965 might be the reason for whatever “stigma” he claims? Would actions done due to racism be a reason to disqualify institutions that maintain a system built on white supremacy? Is holding individuals and institutions accountable to end racism creating a stigma? Does the continuing racism that we see have anything to do with society today?

“I think one of the cruelest things a society can do is to take the best and the brightest young black Americans and basically say to them you simply cannot compete with the best and brightest of other races. We won’t allow you to do that. You can’t do it. You have to depend on our paternalism.” -Shelby Steele

When a black person makes a comment like this, you must ask if they are participating in the use of crack. Steele is a man who lived his first nineteen years of life during legalized Jim Crow. His undergraduate work was done in a small, predominantly white college. Steele did his graduate study at the University of Utah. Today he opposes Affirmative Action. Did it ever cross his mind that maybe, just maybe, he was admitted into any of those schools thanks to Affirmative Action? Was Steele oblivious to everything that was going on around him? Did Steele miss how whites could not compete without rigging the system in their favor?

Whites were getting them all around him, and they didn’t seem to have any problems. It has been this type of thinking that has hindered racial progress in this country.

The late Walter Williams was another favorite black to the white racist subculture. Besides his work as an “educator,” Walter Williams denial of reality is evident in two articles he posted at Townhall.com, one dated Jun 13, 2018, and the second dated June 27, 2018. They were titled “Diversity and Inclusion Harm Part 1 and 2.”

The following quote is from part one:
“In conversations with most college officials, many CEOs, many politicians and race hustlers, it’s not long before the magical words “diversity” and “inclusiveness” drop from their lips. Racial minorities are the intended targets of this sociological largesse, but women are included, as well. This obsession with diversity and inclusion is in the process of leading the nation to decline in a number of areas.”

Williams was a black man who served as a professor at a private majority-white university. Without a diversity and inclusion program, he would not have been hired for that job.

Whites such as Foxfyre like these guys because they do not hold those responsible for the problem to account. Instead they blame blacks for problems blacks did not create and that makes people like Foxfyre feel good.

Lots of good questions, I will need to read some of their stuff to try and understand their perspective as well. Sowell I've seen more of and I'm not crazy about him. I disagree with your assessment of Foxfyre, she genuinely kind person.

 

[IM2]

Lots of good questions, I will need to read some of their stuff to try and understand their perspective as well. Sowell I've seen more of and I'm not crazy about him. I disagree with your assessment of Foxfyre, she genuinely kind person.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that. Because Foxfyre is repeating way too many comments about blacks that she doesn't have the life experience of being black to be saying.

 

[martybegan]

I don't assume anything. I know. Money is irrelevant to this situation. Wealthy blacks face racism all the time. Ask Dr. Henry Louis Gates, a world renowned historian who got roughed up by police in his own house because a white neighbor thought he was breaking in.

Last, learn the real definition of racism and not the right wing white grievance/victimhood definition. You have a feeling, but you have never been black so your feelings don't mean jack. If that kid was driving an 88 beamer the likely chances are that he or she would have been stopped multiple times by police who assumed the car was stolen or the kid was a drug dealer. That's reality, and you want to pretend that reality does not exist to push a false narrative of white victimhood.

Are we not supposed to call people racists in zone 1?

The question is why does that mean I have to get screwed over if applying to the same school because I am white.

 

[Lisa558]

The question is why does that mean I have to get screwed over if applying to the same school because I am white.

You shouldn’t. And you won’t, beginning with the 2024-2025 school year.

My nieces and nephew have all completed grad school within the last few years, but if I had a younger one getting ready to apply to an Ivy League school in the next few months, I’d suggest they work a year and then apply in the spring of 2024. They are all very bright, but they are white (and Jewish), which has worked against them. Very soon, they will no longer have to face less qualified people get chosen ahead of them due to skin color or ethnicity.

 

[IM2]

The question is why does that mean I have to get screwed over if applying to the same school because I am white.

That's not the question because that's not happening.

 

[martybegan]

That's not the question because that's not happening.

500 open spots, A white kid has a tied score or slightly higher score than/with a minority kid, and the minority kid gets in.

That is what has to happen if 1) AA is something and 2) The schools have limits on their incoming classes.

 

[IM2]

Foxfyre,

I was taught and so have almost every other black person as well, that we have to work twice as hard as whites do to get the same opportunity. That's not teaching victimhood, or teaching people to blame somebody else for failure. And as I have lived, I find that teaching to be undisputable truth. So perhaps you need to read other blacks besides those who help your confirmation bias. Maybe some James Baldwin, Michael Eric Dyson, Michell Alexander, Dr. Carole Anderson, Shawn Rochester, Franz Fanon, Francis Cress Wesley, Dr. King, Malcolm X, or white writers like Ira Katznelson who wrote the book, "When Affirmative Action was White", "The Color of Law," by, Richard Rothstein, " Family Properties" by Beryl Satter, "The Color of Money," by Mehrsa Baradaran, "The Sum of Us, by Heather McGhee, or "The Debt" by Randall Robinson.

You need to expand from that narrow point of view you currently hold that has allowed you to deny, dismiss, or downplay the role racism in public policy has played as well as your real lack of understanding about black people.

 

[IM2]

500 open spots, A white kid has a tied score or slightly higher score than/with a minority kid, and the minority kid gets in.

That is what has to happen if 1) AA is something and 2) The schools have limits on their incoming classes.

Test scores aren't everything. 499 white kids get in, 100 on legacy with scores lower than blacks.

You ignore everything that actually happens to try this weak argument.

 

[martybegan]

Test scores aren't everything. 499 white kids get in, 100 on legacy with scores lower than blacks.

You ignore everything that actually happens to try this weak argument.

Your ignoring the fact that it's a zero sum game and the white kid gets screwed over solely because of his race in my example just shows you are not willing to argue honestly on this topic.

Legacy isn't a racial issue. anyone can be a legacy.

 

[IM2]

Your ignoring the fact that it's a zero sum game and the white kid gets screwed over solely because of his race in my example just shows you are not willing to argue honestly on this topic.

Legacy isn't a racial issue. anyone can be a legacy.

And that's the problem. It is not a zero sum game and whites are not entitled to every seat in a school or every job. Legacy is a racial issue since races were excluded while whites were admitted to create that legacy.

Whites such as yourself purposefully choose to forget that for nearly 200 years only whites could go to certain schools. You deny the history of white affirmative action. Whites are the majority of all college students. There is no racial discrimination against whites in college admissions. A black student denied admission at Howard can't whine about being racially discriminated against because a white kid was admitted. The case would be laughed out of court since Howard is majority black. But here we have whites whining about how they are being racially discriminated against in schools that are majority white.

And the mostly white supreme court is actually taking the case. Now if that's not white privilege, nothing is.

 

[martybegan]

And that's the problem. It is not a zero sum game and whites are not entitled to every seat in a school or every job. Legacy is a racial issue since races were excluded while whites were admitted to create that legacy.

Whites such as yourself purposefully choose to forget that for nearly 200 years only whites could go to certain schools. You deny the history of white affirmative action. Whites are the majority of all college students. There is no racial discrimination against whites in college admissions. A black student denied admission at Howard can't whine about being racially discriminated against because a white kid was admitted. The case would be laughed out of court since Howard is majority black. But here we have whites whining about how they are being racially discriminated against in schools that are majority white.

And the mostly white supreme court is actually taking the case. Now if that's not white privilege, nothing is.

Who said every seat? More and more legacies are minority every year, and a legacy is discrimination mostly on status, not race, and that impacts me just as much as some black kid.

200 years ago my ancestors were in Ireland or Italy.

You try to pretend that things like is adversely impact white males, but you can't ignore the fact that if someone is given a one up because of their skin color, some other person gets screwed, and it's usually a white guy or an asian guy.

 

[Lisa558]

Who said every seat? More and more legacies are minority every year, and a legacy is discrimination mostly on status, not race, and that impacts me just as much as some black kid.

200 years ago my ancestors were in Ireland or Italy.

You try to pretend that things like is adversely impact white males, but you can't ignore the fact that if someone is given a one up because of their skin color, some other person gets screwed, and it's usually a white guy or an asian guy.

Also, Marty, you should know that the difference in grades/scores between accepted blacks and rejected whites isn’t slight. It’s pretty significant: a black with a 3.3 gets in while a white with a 3.8 (and similarly higher scores) rejected.

The problem is that Harvard and most colleges determine ahead of time what percentage of the student body they think should be black. In Harvard’s case, it’s 14%. Then they lower the cut-off point until enough blacks “qualify” under the lower standards.

And that is what is illegal and at the crux of the SCOTUS case: Can Harvard, and UNC, also part of the suit, alter admissions standards with the intent to reach a specific racial outcome? The answer will be no.

 

[IM2]

Who said every seat? More and more legacies are minority every year, and a legacy is discrimination mostly on status, not race, and that impacts me just as much as some black kid.

200 years ago my ancestors were in Ireland or Italy.

You try to pretend that things like is adversely impact white males, but you can't ignore the fact that if someone is given a one up because of their skin color, some other person gets screwed, and it's usually a white guy or an asian guy.

Stop denying that 200 years of white preferences don't impact us now ago and face the reality that white males get more preferences or one ups because of their race right now than anyone else. Then learn that Asians are included in Affirmative Action and are getting accepted way above their population so they aren't getting screwed. Parents are not to be mentioned here and that sorry excuse you used to dismiss what has happened in America has no merit.