US-Israel-Turkey

[ekrem]

Turkey has had several coups and is just barely containing the muslim terrorists within its own border.

Yes, that is exactly the reason why 30.900.000 foreigners come to Turkey as Tourists:
Tourism in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkey is within Top-10 Tourism spots in world. You have no clue what you are talking about.
Read what experts are saying:

Given the proactive measures being taken by Turkish authorities, coupled with a thin jihadist presence in the country (compared to other places), it is unlikely that al Qaeda poses a major threat to Turkey, though one-off attacks can never be ruled out.

Free Article for Non-Members | STRATFOR

To your other sentences:
Turks never claimed to have the most moral army in the world.
It is known what we are: Giving confidence to friends and fear to enemies.
You keep that fact better in the forefront of your brain as the Turkish State will not abracadbra go away, but come South to put a foot in everyone's comfort-zone.
What we do within our territory is none of your business, your business is what we do outside of our territory.

Turkey as regional hegemon--2014:
Strategic implications for the United States

They have industrial and procurement plans aimed at strategic autonomy. Turkey will have a mature military force structure capable of rapid and sustained intervention in the region.
Turkey’s economy will be stronger and its robust industrial base will be self-sufficient enough to compensate for western embargoes. The Turkish infrastructure will accommodate the shifting of military forces to distant borders and will permit the support of those forces. By 2014, it would only be a very short step for Turkey to
become a regional hegemon.
To use an overworked phrase, “It’s not a question of if, it’s a question of when.”
There will be an increasing risk of unilateral Turkish military or economic interventions in an unstable region that is vital to American security interests.

Turkey as regional hegemon2014: strategic implications for the United States - Turkish Studies

Decade Forecast: 2010-2020

Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran will remain issues by 2020, but not defining issues in the region. Two other countries will be more important. Turkey is emerging as a self-confident regional leader, with a strong military and economy. We expect that trend to continue, and see Turkey emerging as the dominant regional power. The growth of Turkish power and influence in the next decade is one reason we feel confident in the decline of the U.S.-jihadist war and the transformation of the Iran issue. The dynamic in the region between the Mediterranean and Iran — and even in the Caucasus and Central Asia — will be redefined by Turkey’s re-emergence. Of course, Turkey will feel tremendous internal tensions during this process, as is the case for any emerging power. For Turkey, the relationship between the Ataturkian tradition and the Islamic tradition is the deep fault line. It could falsify this forecast by plunging the country into chaos. While that is possible, we feel that the crisis will be managed over the next decade, albeit with much pain and stress.

By 2020, Egypt will be changing from the type of country it has been since the 1970s — for the past generation it has lacked the capacity to influence developments beyond its borders. Like Turkey, Egypt is caught between secularism and Islam, and that tension could continue paralyzing it. However, as Turkey rises, Ankara will need a large source of cheap labor and markets for exports. The result will be a “coattails” effect for Egypt. With this synergetic fortification we expect not only an end to Egyptian quiescence, but increased friction between Egypt and all other regional players. In particular, Israel will be searching for the means to maintain its balance between the powerful Turkey and the re-emerging Egypt. This will shape all of its foreign — and domestic — policies.

Free Article for Non-Members | STRATFOR

Turkey (...) is just barely containing the muslim terrorists within its own border.

You are the real problem for regional peace.
This assesment is State Policy of Turkey hence the degradation of relations to your "Axis of Evil" country.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said on Sunday that if the lack of trust between his country and Israel continues, it could influence agreements that were signed in the past between the two countries. Israel and its nearest Muslim ally have a history of military cooperation, but relations have been strained since Erdogan's outspoken opposition to Israel's Cast Lead counter-terror campaign in Gaza last winter.
Interviewed by the Euro News television station, Erdogan said, "Israel should give some thought to what it would be like to lose a friend like Turkey in the future."

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/179665

The only Muslim country having relations with Israel distances from Israel.
Surely the right message to your "Axis of Evil"-behaviour. Mindsets like yours deserve this approach.

 

[The Rabbi]

Im glad most Turks don't think like you. We have whackos and tools in America too. You obviously must be the Turkish variety.
You write:

To your other sentences:
Turks never claimed to have the most moral army in the world.
It is known what we are: Giving confidence to friends and fear to enemies.
You keep that fact better in the forefront of your brain as the Turkish State will not abracadbra go away, but come South to put a foot in everyone's comfort-zone.
What we do within our territory is none of your business, your business is what we do outside of our territory.

And then you quote:

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan said on Sunday that if the lack of trust between his country and Israel continues, it could influence agreements that were signed in the past between the two countries. Israel and its nearest Muslim ally have a history of military cooperation, but relations have been strained since Erdogan's outspoken opposition to Israel's Cast Lead counter-terror campaign in Gaza last winter.
Interviewed by the Euro News television station, Erdogan said, "Israel should give some thought to what it would be like to lose a friend like Turkey in the future."

So no one should say anything about what Turkey does but Turkey should be free to meddle elsewhere?
No, you are a tool of the first order.

 

[ekrem]

So no one should say anything about what Turkey does but Turkey should be free to meddle elsewhere?
No, you are a tool of the first order.

First, there are fundamental differences between Turkey and Israel.
In short, we are more important then Israel. Plus, Israel does produce tensions which are not contained to Israelian territory itself, but tensions affecting a wider audience and where the whole world has eyes on.

Second, Israel is a consumer of US security, whilst Turkey is an exporter of security and stability. From the Balkans to the Hindukush.

Third, Turkey does not phosphorize children nor does it have over 650 military checkpoints like Israel has in West-Bank. Do you want me to continue in what kind of evilish behaviour you are engaged in Palestinian territory? The whole world does know this. Only failed mindsets like yours do want to keep legitimizing this evilish behaviour, seeking advantage from status-quo.

Fifth, Turkey has the profile of internal and external problem solver. The issues we have internally we are solving. Israel has the profile of a radicalizing society bringing rascist ***** like "Avidgor Liebermann" to power. Even without Liebermann, Israel's core policy is to widen settlements, get grip on the anyway minmalist over- and underearth water ressources. Because not only the South-Arabs are desert people, you are too.

Sixth, in International Diplomacy Turkey is elected with votes of 151 countries into UN security council. You do not even comply to any UN resolutions.

Im glad most Turks don't think like you.

You have no f* clue of what majority of Turks think regarding phosphorizing Palestinians.

In Istanbul, organisers claimed as many as 700,000 people had turned out for their protest.
AFP: Demonstrations continue worldwide over Gaza violence

The Turkish state reaction to Gaza incidents goes congruent with Turkish public mood. Actually the public mood is the trigger. You can not make your life easy by trying to de-legitimize me as just a "whacko Turk" with such sentences:

Im glad most Turks don't think like you.

In fact, in consequence to the Gaza crimes you are identified as "Axis of Evil" by the average Turk.
Don't be illusional you have any good Image.

Turkish voters may well be more important to Israel than Israeli voters. Turkey is just too powerful a country for Israel to have as an enemy.

Israel, Turkey and Low Seats | STRATFOR

 

[Munin]

Ekrem I would like to know something about Turkey, you seem to be very very motivated about informing people about Turkey so I hope you ll answer my question.


Recently Turkey seems to be going a different course then before, it seems as much an internal struggle as an outside struggle (to an outsider like me). Erdogan seems to be less and less moderate Islamic the longer he is in the seat of prime minister. Turkey was since it was "born" a fiercely secular state, banning religion for every public important area (schools, ...) ...

Now there seems to be a turnaround, Erdogan is still in power despite the history of coups against traitors of Attaturks Legacy (secular Turkey). The military doesn't seem as eager to act and Erdogan is bolder in his moves against the military, now he is supported by the EU to disband the current political power of the military in Turkey and place it under government authority.

Foreign policy is more involved with neighbouring Islamic countries, this is a very intelligent move because it increases Turkeys influence in the region. But it s also a dangerous approach because of the possible harm of relations with Western countries:
* You know the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"?
* Well how about this: "What is the friend of your enemy then?" My guess is that it could become your enemy, at least it does not seem much of a friend anymore ... It is well known that the west currently has "hostile" relations with countries like Iran, Syria, ...

What can you tell me about this evolution?
- Is it negative : More radical religious influence in the government? Possibly a threat to Turkish secularity?
- Or how should we look at this?


And now on topic:

If the US has to choose: US-Turkey relations or US-Israel relations, then I m sorry for you but my honest opinion is that Israel will come first. Turkey is a friend because it isn't an enemy of Israel, if it was an enemy of israel ... then I m afraid it wouldn't be a friend of the US anymore.

The most obvious thing that proves my point was the military excersices between Israel, Turkey and the US that were canceled:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/12/world/europe/12turkey.html

The US didn't continue its excersise with Turkey (all the other participants canceled as well)

 

[Samson]

The position of Turkey as a modern yet Muslim nation is unique, and I wish more Americans paid attention to it. The constant bickering between Turkey and Greece is at most amusing.

This thread, however, is a tempest in a tea-pot.

Most Americans could give a shit one way or the other what relationship Israel has with Turkey, or any other nation. Both are difficult allies. Remember that Turkey withdrew support for the US invasion of Iraq, causing military strategists no choice but to resort to "Plan B," (Turkey was not used as a staging area) which, luckily, turned out to be pretty effective.

 

[ekrem]

(...)
The US didn't continue its excersise with Turkey (all the other participants canceled as well)

The exercise is called "Anatolian Eagle"

Anatolian Eagle is one of the largest and most complex joint air force exercises in the world, paralleled only by Red Flag, held periodically at Nevada's Nellis Air Force Base, and the annual Maple Flag exercise in Canada.

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/templateC05.php?CID=2349

The airforce exercise was not cancelled, but held without international participation.
The saying that USA and Italy cancelled the airforce exercise as a protest is just lobby-propaganda. Turkey did just "nationalize" that year's event. It is an exercise sponsored by the Turkish taxpayer. Pakistan, UAE and other non-NATO members are regularily invited to Anatolian Eagle.

That years exercise should have been held with USA, Israel and Italy.

Leave the USA aside...
Take Italy. Berlusconi was at the marriage of Erdogan's son Bilal.
Silvio Berlusconi was witness during the marriage ceremony:
ekathimerini.com | Erdogan’s wedding burlesque

Italy is Turkey's 3rd biggest trading partner within Europe. Turkey does build together with Telespazio of Italy the Göktürk-1 satellite. Turkey does build together with Finmecchanica of Italy the T-129 Attack helicopter.
Also we are heavily engaged with Italy in energy business, with latest project the Samsun-Ceyhan pipeline.

Now, why would a country like Italy having such relations with Turkey drop out of one of the most complex airforce exercises?
Because neither the USA nor Italy did "cancell" anything.
The truth is this:

from Stratfor (no Israel Lobby)

Turkey announced Oct. 9 that it will be pulling out of “Anatolian Eagle,” an annual joint air force exercise with Israel, the United States, Italy and NATO slated for Oct. 12-24. Instead of participating in this multilateral exercise, the Turkish general staff said in a statement that Turkey’s air force would conduct exercises on its own at Konya air force base without any international partners.

Free Article for Non-Members | STRATFOR

Dont't let you be fooled by lobbies.
The rest i will answer also....

 

[ekrem]

@Munin.
One thing "Westerners" swimming in the Islamophobia wave do not understand is this:
The AKP is the most pro-Western party within Turkey.

The party programme of the MHP (Nationalist Action Party) with 14,3 % election result,calls for immediate cancellation of EU accession talks.
LINK: Nationalist Movement Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Latest election polls from December 2009 indicate the MHP further rising:

If today were elections, Turkey would be ruled by a CHP-MHP coalition.
Maybe even a CHP only government. The CHP are leftist Secularists with an isolationistic mindset.
BUT: No matter who rules Turkey, the Foreign policy is defined by the State. Government is only an institution within the State. The Foreign Policy of Turkey is defined by the so-called "Red Book".
Politicians do have influence in defining this "Red Book", but they do ot with the other relevant State institutions -- mainly the Army.

The Red Book is sometimes called the "most secret" document in Turkey. It is updated once or twice a decade.

National Security Council (Turkey) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the things till 2007 stood, Turkey was described as one of the big loosers in the new regional dynamics which were triggered by the US invasion into Iraq. There was a possibility of a Kurdish State, Iran seemed to continously expand its influence.

So, what Turkey did was this:
Canalizing the capabilities into the Middle East.
First, Turkey put USA into a position to think about relations with Turkey.
The USA did surely see at that time via satellites the movements of the 2nd Army within Turkey.

In 2007 USA made a decision about relations with Turkey.
What followed was opening of Iraqi territory and Iraqi airspace for Turkish Army.
The USA now went from blockade to cooperation with Turkey.
USA gave Turkey guarantees in the question of Kirkuk. In return Turkey did scale down its military activism to a minimum.

There is a situation where USA and Turkey did already agree for the post-Iraq-war era. Coming to an agreement was painful. But November 2007 it happened with the Bush-Gul meeting. Therefore I strongly disagree of what is happening is an unilateral approach by Turkey. Maybe it is an unilateral approach, but, even if the US does not like it knows what Turkey does. The decision to canalize capabilities southwards was made by Turkish State, the USA has decided it is in its best middle- and long-term interest not to block this.

What happens now in the region with Turkish activism was predicted already in 2007 by Stratfor:

While per capita GDP lags, it is total GDP that measures weight in the international system. China, for example, China is 109th in per capita GDP. Its international power rests on it being fourth in total GDP.

Turkey is not China, but in becoming the largest Muslim economy, as well as the largest economy in the eastern Mediterranean, southeastern Europe, the Middle East, the Caucasus and east to the Hindu Kush, Turkey is moving to regain its traditional position of primacy in the region.

In the Balkans, for example, where Turkey historically has been a dominant power, the Turks have again emerged as a major influence over the region's two Muslim states -- and have managed to carve out for themselves a prominent position as regards other countries in the region as well. The country's economic dynamism has helped reorient some of the region away from Europe, toward Turkey.

As Turkey grows, an interesting imbalance has to develop. The ability of Greece, Armenia, Syria, Iraq and Iran to remain hostile to Turkey decreases as the Turkish economy grows. Ideology and history are very real things, but so is the economic power of a dynamic economy. As important, Turkey's willingness to accept its highly constrained role indefinitely, while its economic -- and therefore political -- influence grows, is limited. Turkey's economic power, coupled with its substantial regional military power, will over time change the balance of power in each of the regions Turkey faces.

Not only does Turkey interface with an extraordinary number of regions, its economy is the major one in each of those regions, while Turkish military power usually is pre-eminent as well. When Turkey develops economically, it develops militarily. It then becomes the leading power -- in many regions. That is what it means to be a pivotal power.
In 2003, the United States was cautious with Turkey, though in the final analysis it was indifferent. It no longer can be indifferent.

The rumors about Turkish action against the PKK within Iraq have much broader significance. They point to a changing role for Turkey -- and that will mean massive regional changes over time.

STRATFOR - Geopolitical intelligence, economic, political, and military strategic forecasting | STRATFOR

Just after that we did go into Iraq on a minimum-scaled surgical strike with troops, and North-Iraqi airspace is now an extension of Turkish airspace. From time to time, as need arises, we bomb the terrosists from the air. Paralell Turkey did increase economic activism in North-Iraq for the benefit of the non-terrorist population.

What Turkey then did was reaching out to regional states, which were the clear loosers of the new regional dynamics. Mainly Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. Much of the Turkish activism is directly and negatively effecting the Israeli position in the region. Afterall Israel wins if the region is fragmented. So I do not wonder that lobbies etc. are starting with Turkey-bashing.
As a by-product Turkey wins new markets and Turkish companies pop-out in those countries as investors. Also it is in US's interest when Turkey brings countries like Syria under its influence away from the Iranian influence. As a direct side-product USA is now sending ambassador Robert Ford to Syria, so USA again takes up diplomatic relations with Syria.

The Syrian-Turkish relations should be seen in bilateral context and not be made dependable on any other 3rd country for example Syria. There is no reason left for Turkey not to engage with Syria. Syria is a friendly country to Turkey, and from all the Arab countries the civil society in Syria resembles the Turkish most. We do not have any problems with Syria.
Rand corporation writes:

Turkish-Syrian relations were seriously strained in the 1980s and early 1990s, particularly because of Syrian support for the PKK. Relations reached a crisis in October 1998 when Turkey threatened to invade Syria if Syria did not cease its support for the PKK. Faced with Turkey’s overwhelming military superiority, Syria backed down, expelling PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan and closing PKK training camps on its soil. The expulsion of Öcalan and the closing of the PKK camps opened the way for a gradual improvement in Turkey’s relations with Syria, a trend that has gained increased momentum in the last several years.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2009/RAND_MG899.pdf

Not directly related to the Syria issue, but anyway a relevant assesment:

Turkey’s trade with GCC members has soared in the last few years.
(...)
Turkey’s exports to Kuwait rose 172 percent, those to Qatar rose 203 percent, and those to the United Arab Emirates increased 210 percent. For the first time, the United Arab Emirates edged out Germany as the top export destination for
Turkish goods.11

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2009/RAND_MG899.pdf



On direct US-Turkish relations, both countries have agreed to intensify the economic dimensions of relations. The German Marshall fund, monitoring transatlantic topics writes on this issue:

Turkish trade with the United States currently accounts for less than 5 percent of total Turkish trade. This is a strikingly small figure, and stands in stark contrast to the rapid growth of Turkish trade with Middle Eastern and Eurasian neighbors in recent years.

PDF download: Lesser_OnTurkey_1215_Final.pdf

As Turkey provides its security for itself, and does not rely on USA for its security this is the right step to go. If USA does not play a role in Turkish economic outreach to the world, the assumption of strong relations between USA and Turkey is shaky.
So Obama and Erdogan have initiated the process called "Framework for Strategic, Economic and Commercial Cooperation" in December 2009.

United States Trade Representative Ron Kirk and Secretary of Commerce Gary Locke met already with their Turkish counter-parts.
US Welcomes New Strategic Framework with Turkey (December 7, 2009) - U.S. Embassy Ankara, Turkey

The US ambassador to Turkey says, that the trade agreements in the pipeline will triple US-Turkish trade. But I am a bit sceptical.

Trade and investment agreements, as well as economic partnership agreements are in the pipeline, according to U.S. Ambassador to Ankara James Jeffrey (...) Trade can increase threefold(...)

Trade can increase threefold, says US envoy - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

If you ask me, there is no indication that US-Turkish relations are on a set-back.
Those set-back was in the 2002-2007 period. Now we are in the "improving era". But it is no "Golden Age". And the military to military relations between USA and Turkey will never be as they were before 2002. Because Turkey has a young population, and sequentially Turkish officers come to power who do not have a strong bond to USA from cold-war era but have a mindset shaped mainly from the 2002-2007 period.
That "Golden Age" in relations Turkey has with Russia.

As ending remarks:
It does not matter if you like me or Turkey. We are coming south, based on a self-sustained basis. Some other countries of course will be pushed aside when the interests diverge.

Also some other factors drag Turkey "East", which do not stem from Turkish activism.

Turkey is no longer the driving force behind Turkic cooperation; Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan have taken over part of this role. In fact, the AKP’s policy of paying less attention to the relations with the Turkic world has inadvertently given an impetus to the development of inter-Turkic relations. The AKP’s lack of attention to the Turkic world helped the Turkic countries realize that Turkey’s cooperation proposals were not based on hegemonic intentions.

Finally, the rise of Turkic nationalism that can be observed throughout the region has encouraged the Turkic countries to establish institutions such as the Turkish Council. The cooperation agreements that have been signed between the Turkic states are destined to eventually have far-reaching cultural, economic and political repercussions.

The relations between Turkey and the rest of the Turkic world have entered a new era with the establishment of the Assembly of Turkic-speaking parliamentarians and of the Turkic Council.

Central Asia-Caucasus Institute and Silk Road Studies Program


The Turkic Council was founded on October 2009.
As stated, Turkey was not the initiator. But it is surely in our interests.

The Turkic Council comprises the following sub-units:
* Secretary in İstanbul
* Presidents' Council
* Foreign Ministers' Council
* Senior Bureaucrats' Committee in İstanbul
* Wise Men Commission in İstanbul
* Parliamentarian Assembly (TURKPA) in Baku
* Turkic Council Academy in Astana
* Joint Administration of Turkic Arts and Culture (TURKSOY) (UNESCO like organization) in Bishkek
Turkic Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Next step will be Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan joining. This also is just the beginning initiated in October 2009. Penetration into Middle East began 2007.

* Well how about this: "What is the friend of your enemy then?" My guess is that it could become your enemy, at least it does not seem much of a friend anymore ... It is well known that the west currently has "hostile" relations with countries like Iran, Syria, ...

I think that any nation that wants to assert maximum influence in this region throughout the next decades, will co-operate with Turkey.
This "my friend enemy" game as you indicate, is no one-way highway and can be played by Turkey, too.
Turkey is most eastern part of transatlantic community, if it is pushed it can become most Western part of a rising Asian power-bloc. Also the main reason why USA supports EU membership. To make things irreversible.

 

[Munin]

...
1* As Turkey provides its security for itself, and does not rely on USA for its security this is the right step to go.
...
2 * Turkey is most eastern part of transatlantic community, if it is pushed it can become most Western part of a rising Asian power-bloc. Also the main reason why USA supports EU membership. To make things irreversible.
...

1* I know that the final goal of Turkey is to produce indigenous military equipment and to become almost completely self-sufficient in terms of military technologies, but this is still not the case: without support from the USA Turkey can not operate its military airforce, ... in the long run (parts, upgrades, ... : new more advanced planes, ...). Turkey is still dependant on NATO allies for its equipment, so no its also dependant on US security ... If this were true (Turkey providing security for itself), then Turkey could not be a part of NATO: an alliance that makes Turkey depend on other Nations for security.

2* Turkey is already part of NATO, so it is already tied to the US. Its true that the US supports Turkey for their own intrests, but its unlikely that this will have any effect on the possibility of this to happen (Turkey joining the EU). The fact is that the EU is an internal european development: the US has no say in this.

I don't see Turkey joining the EU at the moment, there are still to many reasons:

- Large independant army (that involves itself in politics and government coups: undemocratic)
- Cyprus (the Greek part is a member of the EU) => an EU member that is not recognized by Turkey
- Turkey is too big for the existing big members to accept its influence: Germany, UK, France would loose much political power to Turkey.
- Fear of an even larger immigration wave into western europe: a large part of Turkey is still economically underdevelloped and poor, maybe if the Turks didn't spend all their money in the military ...

The post-war migration of Turks to Europe began with ‘guest workers’ who arrived under the terms of a Labour Export Agreement with Germany in October 1961, followed by a similar agreement with the Netherlands, Belgium and Austria in 1964; France in 1965 and Sweden in 1967. As one Turkish observer noted, ‘it has now been over 40 years and a Turk who went to Europe at the age of 25 has nearly reached the age of 70. His children have reached the age of 45 and their children have reached the age of 20’ [4]. Due to the high rate of Turks in Europe, the Turkish language is now home to one of the largest group of pupils after the German-speakers. Especially in urban areas, it functions as a peer group vernacular for children and adolescents [5]. The increasing Turkish population of Europe can be explained by the continuation of migration through marriages and by the high birth rate of the Turkish population. This high rate has as a consequence that Turkish migrant population is very young (1/3 is under 18 years old); more than 80% of these young people have been born and schooled in Europe.

- Human rights

Torture

The widespread and systematic use of torture in torture in Turkey was first observed by Amnesty International (AI) after the 1971 Turkish coup d'état.[34] Until 2002 the organization continued to speak of systematic torture in Turkey.[35] Günter Verheugen, Commissioner for Enlargement of the European Union went to Turkey in September 2004 and maintained that torture was no longer systematic practice in Turkey.[36] The Human Rights Association (HRA) protested against this evaluation[37] and pointed at recent figures and definitions of systematic torture by the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and the UN Committee against Torture.[38]

Since 2005 incidents of torture seem to be on the rise.[39] According to an October report by the Prime Ministry's Human Rights Presidency (HRP), the number of torture and cruel treatment cases reported in the first six months of the year surpassed the number reported in the first half of 2007. The HRP reported that, in the first half of the year, 178 persons reported cruel treatment and 26 reported torture, up from 79 reports of cruel treatment and 17 reports of torture during the same period in 2007.[39] In the report on progress of November 2008 the European Commission stated, "the number of applications to NGOs in relation to cases of torture and ill-treatment has increased, in particular outside official places of detention, notably during apprehension, transfer, or in the open with no detention registered... There is a lack of prompt, impartial and independent investigation into allegations of human rights violations by members of security forces."[40] In the 2009 annual report Amnesty International stated: "Reports of torture and other ill-treatment rose during 2008, especially outside official places of detention but also in police stations and prisons."[41]

Deaths in custody

An important characteristics of the period following the 12 September 1980 military intervention was the disregard to the right to life and the increase in torture cases and deaths due to torture.[42] The HRFT published two reports on Deaths in Custody (14 and 15 years since the military take over) presenting a list of 419 deaths in custody (in 15 years) with a suspicion that torture might have been the reason. Another 15 deaths were attributed to hunger strikes while medical neglect was given as the reason for 26 deaths.[43] On the basis of this list Helmut Oberdiek compiled a revised list for 20 years (12 September 1980 to 12 September 2000) and concluded that in 428 cases torture may have been the reason for the death of prisoners.[44] In 2008 alone the Human Rights Foundation of Turkey reported of 39 deaths in prison. In some cases torture was involved.[45]

Censorship in Turkey

Human rights in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And these are only the big reasons, then you have a number of other "national rejections" from a lot of

This "my friend enemy" game as you indicate, is no one-way highway and can be played by Turkey, too.

Yes it is: but that is politics, If venezuella allies itself with Iran and Russia => relations with the US deteriorate
The further Turkey moves in one direction, the more it will distance itself from nations in the other direction of the ideological spectrum.

 

[P F Tinmore]

1830: Turkey cedes Algeria to the French
1878: Russians win war, Treaty of San Stefano establishes independent Romania and Serbia.
1881: Tunisia becomes French colony
1882: Egypt becomes British protectorate
1908: Austria Hungary annexes Bosnia
1913: First Balkan war. Turkey loses everything except mainland
1914: Ottoman Empire joins the Axis Powers.
1960: Military coup
1980: Coup
2005: EU snubs Turkey for membership.

Looks like Turkey is part of the "Not Ready For Prime Time Players."

Dude, your countries history in the Middle East begins with some other dude sitting on a desk with a pencil and a drawing ruler in its hand. Don't assume that you are in a position to judge over other people's history. Your history is not a history of indepence and self-rule.
You reinvent yourself away from other people's taxes, then I might consider your voice.

Actually our history begins with G-d speaking to Abraham. Yours begins who knows where.
The modern state of Israel has defeated 5 Arab armies continuously and maintained independence despite world wide hostility. It has maintained democratic rule through all of that and offered all its citizens equal rights. Turkey has had several coups and is just barely containing the muslim terrorists within its own border. It has suppressed its own Kurdish minority. And it has engaged in ethnic cleansing and holocaust on a scale exceeded only by the Nazis.

"The modern state of Israel has defeated 5 Arab armies..."

Those are merely side issues. Israel has yet to defeat Palestine. That is the only war that matters.

 

[Munin]

"The modern state of Israel has defeated 5 Arab armies..."

Those are merely side issues. Israel has yet to defeat Palestine. That is the only war that matters.

Interesting statement, that begs the question:

How many real wars has Turkey won so far? They ve taken a small peace of land from cyprus (that is only recognized by Turkey), but it was no "real" war: It s like taking candy from a kid, cyprus was no match for Turkey.


Maybe it s good that it has fought so few wars (peace through strength)

 

[ekrem]

1* I know that the final goal of Turkey is to produce indigenous military equipment and to become almost completely self-sufficient in terms of military technologies, but this is still not the case: without support from the USA Turkey can not operate its military airforce, ... in the long run (parts, upgrades, ... : new more advanced planes, ...). Turkey is still dependant on NATO allies for its equipment, so no its also dependant on US security ... If this were true (Turkey providing security for itself), then Turkey could not be a part of NATO: an alliance that makes Turkey depend on other Nations for security.

2* Turkey is already part of NATO, so it is already tied to the US. Its true that the US supports Turkey for their own intrests, but its unlikely that this will have any effect on the possibility of this to happen (Turkey joining the EU). The fact is that the EU is an internal european development: the US has no say in this.

Munin, it is no constraint that Turkey relies on US aviation industry, but it is a choice of the options available on the market. So your assesment that Turkey can't operate an airforce without the US in the long-run is very doubtfull. It is a matter of money to switch the equipment or go indegineous.

Turkey does produce the F-16's locally in Turkey.
From Lockheed Martin Website:

The first Turkish-built F-16 flew in 1987.
In 1996, the Turkish Air Force received Block 50 F-16s, and up to 75 percent of those aircraft were manufactured by Turkish industry.

Turkey

The F-16's for Egypt where also produced by Turkey. Look under "Peace Vector IV" --->
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_users_article4.html

Turkey does also upgrade Jordan's and Pakistan's F-16's.

Tusas Aerospace Industries advances in upgrade of Jordan F-16s
http://www.f-16.net/news_article2267.html

Tusas sign contract to modernise Pakistani F-16s
http://www.f-16.net/news_article3578.html

So the spare-parts etc. we can produce ourself.
What we currently can't produce are the latest versions of the Radars from Lockheed Martin and the Electronic Warfare Systems from BAE Systems.
So under CCIP-Agreement we currently modernize all our F-16's to the standard of US Airforce inventory in a contract with Lockeed Martin.

The F-35's we will also build locally under licence.
Turkey does not have a need based position to rethink its airforce equipment.
If such a need for rethinkng arises this will be money intensive, but there will be no situation of a chicken-wing Turkish Airforce.
We then either pump billions into another aircraft or pump money into indigenious upgrades of the existing F-16's.
Even without such a need our F-16's fly with indigenious sniper pods (targeting) and the SSM (Procurement Authority) has initiated a programme to replace the computer of the F-16's with a local one called "Özgür".
Savunma Sanayii Müste?arl???

So when i did say that Turkey does not rely on US security, this means that if a war breaks out between Turkey and any neighbour we will fight this war to the end without anyone having to interfere because we are loosing or so.
We won't loose.

Turkey, like any other nation, may have problems fighting asymetric warfare with Terrorists, but in a classical conventional war with exact defintions in Internation Law (2 official war participiants) we will bomb that other official entity like the US does. The only difference between US and Turkey is that we will have higher losses and bombing them into stone-age won't proceed in "shock and awe"-mentality.
We will bomb them into stone age slower, but steadily !

Fear of an even larger immigration wave into western europe: a large part of Turkey is still economically underdevelloped and poor, maybe if the Turks didn't spend all their money in the military ...

The only economical underveloped regions within Turkey is the South-East. This has 2 reasons:
- The South-East was ruled till 1987 under martial law (no investor confidence)
- Saddam's Iraq, that time 2nd biggest trade partner of Turkey, was UN sanctions. The South-East of Turkey borders a santioned Iraq. So no border-trade could develop.

Besides that your assumption that Turkish armament programmes are restricting Turkish economical development are false.
Here a source from the Catholic Church Conference in Germany, funded by German Ministry for Economic Cooperation and Development.
As you will see in the graphic, Military spending in Turkey does not impair economical development in Turkey:
Rüstungsexport.info - Arms embargo profile Turkey

To prove this, here are projections of Turkish economic growth over the next years:

According to OECD, Turkish econimical average annual growth will be 6.7 percent in 2011 till 2017.
Source: Turkish Industrials Association
Turkey News: November 16-22, 2009

According to Citi Bank:
2011: 5,5 % growth
2012: 5,8 % growth
2013: 6 % growth
Citi maps out rosy estimates for Turkey - Hurriyet Daily News and Economic Review

Specifically, as you mentioned "economically underdevloped" regions...
For the South-East we have the "Southeast Anatolian Project".

The total cost of the project is 36 billion TL, of which 21 billion TL of this investment was realized (end of 2005). The real investment (corrected value) was 56% for the end of 2005. The project area covers 9 provinces (Adıyaman, Batman, Diyarbakır, Gaziantep, Kilis, Siirt, Şanlıurfa, Mardin, and Şırnak) which are located in the basins of the Euphrates and Tigris and in Upper Mesopotamia.

The cost-intensive investments have nearly all been made, building dams and hydropower-plants. What now is being invested are the water-tunnels from the dams to the irrigation lands. In 2013 the project will be completed. The whole project is export-orientated and will use industrial agriculture production. Southeast Anatolia will be then "farmer's land" within Turkey, as not everyone within Turkey can be an engineer or civil servant.
Historically Anatolia was always a granary, now these activities will be outsourced to Southeast Turkey after 2013.

A real example of this is the company "Tat", which is an agriculture company.
It will establish a tomatoe processing plant ( can/tin) with an output of 1 million tonnes.
The CEO says that in the world only 4 plants exist with an output over 1 million tonnes and all 4 are located in California. The plant in Southeast Turkey will be the 5th plant.
Also he says that till today 6.500 kilometers of water tunnels have been constructed during the Southeastern Anatolian Project.
Tat, Þanlýurfa’dan ABD’deki dev salça fabrikalarýna rakip olacak / Ekonomi / Radikal Ýnternet

The are private business investments. The infrastructure is being built by the State.
Total public investment into "Southeastern Anatolia Project" is 36 Billion TL.
= 23,7 Billion $ according to current exchange rates.

So this is some real shit agriculutural development plan. Finalized in 2013. Benefits will then come. In Turkish press they say after completion, "Southeastern Anatolia Project" will reach 50% of California's agricultural exports. We will see, aynway the world climate is changing and Turkey secures with these investments to be a self-sufficient agricultural country over this century. Our neighbours can buy from us.
In this region Turkey is hyper-power in agriculture and this will add to Turkey's strategic depth with the changing climate.

Besides the "Southeastern Anatolia Project" the State Water Administration Works (DSI) will built a shit-load of new dams and hydroplants all over Turkey.
Till 2023 68 Billion $ will be invested by the state into new dams and hydroplants.
PDF-Source:
http://www.dsi.gov.tr/pdf_dosyalar/dsi_hakkinda.pdf

But investment plans till 2023 are a bit far-fetched, let's concentrate on near future.
Here the investment budget of DSI (State Water Administration)

DSI will invest about 33 Billion TL in new dams between 2010-2014.
33 Billion TL = 21 Billion $.
This is all seperate from "Southeastern Anatolian Project (SAP)" as SAP is financed by central government and DSI is subdivision of Environment Ministry with its own budget.

- Human rights

Torture

The widespread and systematic use of torture in torture in Turkey was first observed by Amnesty International (AI) after the 1971 Turkish coup d'état.[34] Until 2002 the organization continued to speak of systematic torture in Turkey.[35] Günter Verheugen, Commissioner for Enlargement of the European Union went to Turkey in September 2004 and maintained that torture was no longer systematic practice in Turkey.[36] The Human Rights Association (HRA) protested against this evaluation[37] and pointed at recent figures and definitions of systematic torture by the European Committee for the Prevention of Torture and the UN Committee against Torture.[38]

Since 2005 incidents of torture seem to be on the rise.[39] According to an October report by the Prime Ministry's Human Rights Presidency (HRP), the number of torture and cruel treatment cases reported in the first six months of the year surpassed the number reported in the first half of 2007. The HRP reported that, in the first half of the year, 178 persons reported cruel treatment and 26 reported torture, up from 79 reports of cruel treatment and 17 reports of torture during the same period in 2007.[39] In the report on progress of November 2008 the European Commission stated, "the number of applications to NGOs in relation to cases of torture and ill-treatment has increased, in particular outside official places of detention, notably during apprehension, transfer, or in the open with no detention registered... There is a lack of prompt, impartial and independent investigation into allegations of human rights violations by members of security forces."[40] In the 2009 annual report Amnesty International stated: "Reports of torture and other ill-treatment rose during 2008, especially outside official places of detention but also in police stations and prisons."[41]

Deaths in custody

An important characteristics of the period following the 12 September 1980 military intervention was the disregard to the right to life and the increase in torture cases and deaths due to torture.[42] The HRFT published two reports on Deaths in Custody (14 and 15 years since the military take over) presenting a list of 419 deaths in custody (in 15 years) with a suspicion that torture might have been the reason. Another 15 deaths were attributed to hunger strikes while medical neglect was given as the reason for 26 deaths.[43] On the basis of this list Helmut Oberdiek compiled a revised list for 20 years (12 September 1980 to 12 September 2000) and concluded that in 428 cases torture may have been the reason for the death of prisoners.[44] In 2008 alone the Human Rights Foundation of Turkey reported of 39 deaths in prison. In some cases torture was involved.[45]

Censorship in Turkey
Human rights in Turkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am not that "halelulja"-type of person, or a Mandela or so.
Personally I do not have any problems with my State Administration.
Mother State neither beats me nor tortures me. That such things occure in the "executive body" of the state (police etc.) I am clearly against.
In general Turkey is moving also in Human Rights in the right direction.
I love "Mother State" even if the Human Rights issue would not be moving in right direction.
And i do not have a problem being confronted with such issues and I also have no problem being identified as a "cruel Turk", the opposite it pleases me. Just joking.

I hope i could answer you some questions. Like in economics there are micro and macro views. I tend to view politics from the macro perspective. This matches also the stance of Turkey, which means that internal affairs are not really a question for outsiders.
I think Turkey has grown a "weight" which makes it a no option for other states to meddle or manipulate internal developments of Turkey.
But we can surely discuss these things also and I will try to answer questions about these developments also.
Goodbye.

 

[ekrem]

"The modern state of Israel has defeated 5 Arab armies..."

Those are merely side issues. Israel has yet to defeat Palestine. That is the only war that matters.

Interesting statement, that begs the question:

How many real wars has Turkey won so far? They ve taken a small peace of land from cyprus (that is only recognized by Turkey), but it was no "real" war: It s like taking candy from a kid, cyprus was no match for Turkey.


Maybe it s good that it has fought so few wars (peace through strength)

Since establishment of the Turkish Republic in 1923 we did not particpate in wars.
In WW 2 Turkey was a neutral country.
Since then, the most serious involvement of Turkish Army abroad was the Korean War.
We sent 5.554 soldiers to Korea.
This was no show or beauty particpation in Korean war, as Turkey had one of highest loss-rate:
- 721 dead soldiers
- 2,111 wounded
- 168 missing
Korean War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While the Turks were for a long time fighting against the enemy and dying, the British and Americans were withdrawing. The Turks, who were out of ammunition, affixed their bayonets and attacked the enemy and there ensued a terrible hand to hand combat.

Further reading:
Turkish Brigade

After Korean War, Turkey was a peacekeeping country.

Turkey participated in 18 UN peace operations over the last two decades and currently takes part in 10 UN peace keeping missions.
As to the civilian police contribution to UN peace keeping missions, presently, Turkey is among the first five contributing countries. Turkey ranks the first country in terms of the number of participated missions, as Turkish police officers currently serve in 9 different UN missions.

Turkish Mission to UN

As I said before, Turkey is an exporter of security through Army and Police.

 

[ekrem]

A consortium of 10 Turkish Universities and 1 German University will construct a "mini"-CERN in Ankara.
German Minister of Education and Research Ms. Schavan also participated in the signing ceremony.

Read more:
Deal signed on establishment of Turkish Accelerator Center

 

[Mike458877]

The United States would serve its self well to open its eyes and accept Turkey for what it is, a unreliable partner which we cannot count on. The Turks have historically proven that they cannot be counted on when one needs them the most.

Further, the United States needs to stop being hypocritical and demand human rights conditions change in Turkey, a vicious nation towards those they view different from themselves.

Mike

 

[ekrem]

The United States would serve its self well to open its eyes and accept Turkey for what it is, a unreliable partner
(...)

A vivid civil society that is changing, and that Change does not happen as a reactory step, but an evolutionary step to the current system in Turkey.
The average Turk is not only a tax-cow, but his views on several things have direct impact on politics.

Turkey will not be a reliable partner on issues where the domestic public opinion opposes these issues. Like in your country, Turkey does have free and fair elections too, without any irregularities. Power to the people as they say.