US Drawing Up Plans To Sink the Russian Black Sea Fleet: Ukrainian Official

[Donald H]

The sinking of the Moskva marked the end of Naval warfare as we know it. In a heartbeat all floating Naval Assets anywhere in the world have become obsolete. The larger they are the more obsolete they are.

Ukraine's sinking of Russia's Black Sea Fleet flagship ushers in a new era of naval warfare

The sinking of the Moskva is the latest in a series of Russian setbacks and has the world's navies watching.

www.businessinsider.com

Great article!

Here's another one that speaks directly to the topic.

Taking it up an escalatory notch: US mulls sending anti-ship missiles to Zelensky

Washington only denies that it has "plans to destroy the Russian fleet." This may be seen as another distinction without a difference.

responsiblestatecraft.org

And note that the US proxy war theory is starting to get some air time.

Washington only denies that it has “plans to destroy the Russian fleet.” This may be seen as another distinction without a difference.

 

[Donald H]

Couple of points to mention. The Moskva wasn't 661 meters.
They don't mention the British ship sunk during the Falklands war. HMS Sheffield.

But basically it appears to be a fact that suface ships can't be defended. The implications are wide ranging, but may not make them obsolete.

I could be said that the crews of surface ships are obsolete. That might be said about Aircraft carriers that can deliver the offensive but will never survive to see the results.

 

[para bellum]

Denmark is sending a Harpoon coastal battery according to Austin.

I think Denmark is the only operator of the shore-based version. Taiwan is getting some, but won't be for a couple years. I would have thought NSM would be easier and faster- maybe Norway will pitch in now that Denmark has stepped up.

Harpoons could theoretically reach Sevestapol from Odesa...

 

[justoffal]

Couple of points to mention. The Moskva wasn't 661 meters.
They don't mention the British ship sunk during the Falklands war. HMS Sheffield.

But basically it appears to be a fact that suface ships can't be defended. The implications are wide ranging, but may not make them obsolete.

I could be said that the crews of surface ships are obsolete. That might be said about Aircraft carriers that can deliver the offensive but will never survive to see the results.

Air craft carriers have suddenly become the biggest liability in fact. With a crew of thousands and nearly a half square mile deck they are sitting ducks for the new generation of anti ship missiles that China is currently mass producing. The new hypersonic versions also have a 99% penetration rate which means they are almost impossible to shoot down or intercept. Now one is bad enough...but any good war tactician is going to fire three or four at the same ship from different directions.....end result? No more aircraft carriers forever frankly. If I was a naval power I would stop construction on all but Littoral vessels and put all the funding into the submarine fleet.

JO

 

[Donald H]

Denmark is sending a Harpoon coastal battery according to Austin.

I think Denmark is the only operator of the shore-based version. Taiwan is getting some, but won't be for a couple years. I would have thought NSM would be easier and faster- maybe Norway will pitch in now that Denmark has stepped up.

Harpoons could theoretically reach Sevestapol from Odesa...

Russia is severely outnumbered, if not being outclassed in it's weaponry.

Still, Russia has the nuclear weapons to end it all for humanity about 50 times over.

Swallow the 'confidence' propaganda that's meant to keep Americans brave.

 

[Donald H]

Air craft carriers have suddenly become the biggest liability in fact. With a crew of thousands and nearly a half square mile deck they are sitting ducks for the new generation of anti ship missiles that China is currently mass producing. The new hypersonic versions also have a 99% penetration rate which means they are almost impossible to shoot down or intercept. Now one is bad enough...but any good war tactician is going to fire three or four at the same ship from different directions.....end result? No more aircraft carriers forever frankly. If I was a naval power I would stop construction on all but Littoral vessels and put all the funding into the submarine fleet.

JO

From a layperson's POV, the hypersonic missiles also negate the value of watertight compartments on modern ships, due to their capability of breaking a large ship's back.

No wonder sailors are getting sick on some aircraft carriers.

 

[justoffal]

Russia is severely outnumbered, if not being outclassed in it's weaponry.

Still, Russia has the nuclear weapons to end it all for humanity about 50 times over.

Swallow the 'confidence' propaganda that's meant to keep Americans brave.

The war in UKRAINE was planned well in advance by NATO and has been NATO versus Russia from day one.
Putin made a huge tactical error if he thought otherwise which apparently he did.
This isn't going away anytime soon and I believe that China will take advantage of the " War " mood to time it's gradual takeover of Taiwan.
The west is bracing for a classic Naval Assault....but that is not coming. China can do this from their mainland just fine without so much as launching a single ship or a single war plane.

 

[justoffal]

From a layperson's POV, the hypersonic missiles also negate the value of watertight compartments on modern ships, due to their capability of breaking a large ship's back.

No wonder sailors are getting sick on some aircraft carriers.

The New Chinese Carrier Killer is an immense weapon with a weight nearly ten times that of a conventional missile. It's impact is so devastating it doesn't even need munitions....which it has many times more of than the normal ship missile btw......Now we will also have those too very soon I hear.....but the message here is clear. Naval Battles are going away forever and never to return. (except submarine warfare )

It has already overtaken us it's just a matter of when the PENTAGON will stand in front of the Public red-faced and admit that the New ACC fleet is now nothing more than a contingent of well armed cargo carriers.

 

[Donald H]

The war in UKRAINE was planned well in advance by NATO and has been NATO versus Russia from day one.
Putin made a huge tactical error if he thought otherwise which apparently he did.
This isn't going away anytime soon and I believe that China will take advantage of the " War " mood to time it's gradual takeover of Taiwan.
The west is bracing for a classic Naval Assault....but that is not coming. China can do this from their mainland just fine without so much as launching a single ship or a single war plane.

I would put down the notion that Putin made a huge tactical error as just 'confidence' propaganda.

Russia made the decision and it's not credible to say that they weren't fully aware of the power of America being brought down against Russia.

It's time to get there on that Jo!

 

[para bellum]

Still, Russia has the nuclear weapons to end it all for humanity about 50 times over.

Been that way all my life.

Here ya go. Save yourself.

 

[Donald H]

The New Chinese Carrier Killer is an immense weapon with a weight nearly ten times that of a conventional missile. It's impact is so devastating it doesn't even need munitions....which it has many times more of than the normal ship missile btw......Now we will also have those soo too.....but the message here is clear. Naval Battles are going away forever and never to return.

It has already overtaken us it's just a matter of when the PENTAGON will stand in front of the Public red-faced and admit that the New ACC fleet is now nothing more than a contingent of well armed cargo carriers.

Air craft carriers aren't obsolete due to the fact that they are necessary to take the aggression to the enemy.
The crews being expendable as in dead meat that all countries must soon expect.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? This is the equivalent for Russia.

Secondly why is our corrupt government supporting a neo-Nazi regime? Why would anyone with a brain risk nuclear war over fucking Ukraine?

And the US never invaded or attacked Cuba despite Castro's government "nationalizing" (read stealing) American owned property. When the Soviets placed nuclear armed intermediate ranged missiles in Cuba, we didn't invade, or attack Cuba in any way. All the US did was to blockade Soviet ships carrying further missiles from entering Cuban waters publicly announcing that they would be sunk if they tried to run the blockade. After the blockade succeeded, the US established an embargo on American companies trading with a hostile regime in Cuba, the rest of the world was free to trade with Castro. The problem was that he had nothing to trade except Sugar and there were other, cheaper sources so the only group willing to trade with Cuba was the Soviet bloc who did so at a loss to stick a thumb in Uncle Sam's eye.

 

[AZrailwhale]

You obviously don't know how ridiculous you sound. Russia is losing this war badly, and it's only going to get worse for them. The more they escalate, the more support the Ukraine will get. Not just from US, but the entire world. There is no excuse for what Russia has done.

That's irony, he's not serious.

 

[AZrailwhale]

War is war, either you are anti-war or you are not!

Just like the far left approved of the illegal wars of Obama.

Just funny how the far left is only anti war with an (R) next to the name..

So if this was December 8th, 1941, you'd be against going to war against Japan?

 

[AZrailwhale]

" If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia,
and if we see Russia is winning,we ought to help Germany and
that way let them kill as many as possible."
-- Harry *S. Truman { quoted in U.S. Week June 5,1941 }
It was in the Senate,not generally reported.

* The Initial " S " stands for nothing,it was added for euphony

He was recognizing the obvious fact that both Germany and the USSR were our enemies. There is an old military saying that you should never stop an enemy from making a mistake. It's exactly what we did in the Iran/Iraq war. We assisted both sides just enough to keep them fighting each other so neither could bother their neighbors.

 

[Kosh]

So if this was December 8th, 1941, you'd be against going to war against Japan?

Anti-war is anti war, even after 9/11 many were against war, but that was more politics as it was (R) in the white house. But the same anti war crowd did not care about the illegal wars of Obama.

 

[AZrailwhale]

If Finland and Estonia block passage of Russian ships, that would be an act of war. They know that and that is why Finland is trying to join NATO. Do we really want a war with Russia? Our "leaders" sure seem to be trying to get us into one. This is only happening because we have a weak president that the entire world is laughing at and walking on.

It's not an act of war to close your waters to ships owned by combatants. In fact it's required by international law. For an example, the badly damaged Graf Spee was refused sanctuary in Montevideo harbor after her battle with HMS Ajax, Achilles and Exeter. She had to either leave or be interned for the duration of the war. That's why Ludendorff scuttled her. So no, closing their waters to Russian shipping WOULDN'T be an act of war. Just like all the countries that have closed their airspace to Russian owned aircraft wasn't an act of war.

 

[AZrailwhale]

In my honest opinion gipper, this war is America's opening shot at world domination by eliminating the first superpower that stands in the way. The method of a proxy war is necessary because a direct attack would result in MAD.

Russia will not accept defeat, the war will be ongoing in some form for the foreseeable future, and China's entry into the war, if it becomes necessary, would be expected on some level.

I'm here to explore the possibilities and state the true facts as I see it. All in the interest of doing my part in the interest of a peaceful resolution.

What is the most probable way this war can end?

I think that America is demanding of the Ukraine that the Ukraine not talk peace. That has arisen in the news lately, although it's also possibly 'confidence' propaganda.

Russia hasn't been a superpower in four decades. Now it's a third world country with a third world military. The only threat it has against the rest of the world are its nukes. There is only one superpower today. China MIGHT be one is a decade or two, but even it isn't today.

 

[justoffal]

I would put down the notion that Putin made a huge tactical error as just 'confidence' propaganda.

Russia made the decision and it's not credible to say that they weren't fully aware of the power of America being brought down against Russia.

It's time to get there on that Jo!

I have to agree since I find it nearly impossible to think that he didn't see this coming. I guess I'm just not sure what the point of it is unless it's something we have not seen yet

 

[gipper]

And the US never invaded or attacked Cuba despite Castro's government "nationalizing" (read stealing) American owned property. When the Soviets placed nuclear armed intermediate ranged missiles in Cuba, we didn't invade, or attack Cuba in any way. All the US did was to blockade Soviet ships carrying further missiles from entering Cuban waters publicly announcing that they would be sunk if they tried to run the blockade. After the blockade succeeded, the US established an embargo on American companies trading with a hostile regime in Cuba, the rest of the world was free to trade with Castro. The problem was that he had nothing to trade except Sugar and there were other, cheaper sources so the only group willing to trade with Cuba was the Soviet bloc who did so at a loss to stick a thumb in Uncle Sam's eye.

Ever heard of the Bay of Pigs? Are you aware of the numerous times our government tried to kill Castro? Are you aware of the numerous efforts to overthrow Castro’s government?