Universal Health Care

[sealybobo]

Sealybobo said:



how did employers get in the position that they are doing so?


taking things out of context make for poor arguments. did it always limit choice? gawd, you're off the rails here.

and other countries pay for health care and tax companies to death...and that pays for employee health care.

your ideological constipation is getting in the way of seeing clearly.

did you even check out the link: FRONTLINE: sick around the world: five capitalist democracies & how they do it | PBS

I bet you didn't, because your stuck on your own insane rants that are never going to be taken seriously by anyone with half a brain.

This was meant for you:

Michigan Fats argues with both sides, so maybe it is you that doesn't keep an open mind.

Taking things out of context is your MO.

We don't have to do it like those other countries do it. Every country handles every major issue differently, because you can never compare two countries as if they are apples to apples. Look at the best country that does universal health vs the worst. Why doesn't the worst just do what the best does? Because they can't, apparently, for many reasons.

For every one story you showing me why we can't, I can show you 2 on why we can. And I already know we can save money if we change the status quo. You for some reason defend the status quo.

And it isn't like you have an alternative idea. You ONLY want to cock block us on making any progress, on anything.

Why? Because the way it is now, you have the profits privatized and the losses socialized. Our way the government gets some of the profits too.

Any business that has the government taking on your losses need to share some of your profits with them. Under GOP rule, that'll never happen. And they'll lie on why it is wrong to give the government some of the profits. Meanwhile the treasury is empty and the rich have all gotten richer.

And you aren't rich, you fucking fool.

You defended staying in iraq because your companies were making money at the tax payers expense. Why leave if you are the corporations? That's why war for profit is bad you stupid idiot!!!

Maybe if you got your head out of your ass, the country wouldn't be in shambles. But when we have to argue with 30% of the population that the earth is round, the politicians know if they can just keep you chicken hawks defending them, then they can get away with anything....

and that includes invading iraq for a fucking lie. Stupid fool.

 

[michiganFats]

Sealy, no problem, we're cool.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

This was meant for you:

Michigan Fats argues with both sides, so maybe it is you that doesn't keep an open mind.

Taking things out of context is your MO.

We don't have to do it like those other countries do it.

my point has NEVER been to copy what others do. (talk about taking things out of context...geesh) The old American ingenuity our nation once possessed in great abundance would dictate we look at what others like us have done and to tweak a program for ourselves or walk away from it all and start over again.

Every country handles every major issue differently, because you can never compare two countries as if they are apples to apples. Look at the best country that does universal health vs the worst. Why doesn't the worst just do what the best does? Because they can't, apparently, for many reasons.

For every one story you showing me why we can't, I can show you 2 on why we can. And I already know we can save money if we change the status quo. You for some reason defend the status quo.

see my words above nad then take your head out of the fat guy's ass. then wipe the shit off your upper lip.

And it isn't like you have an alternative idea. You ONLY want to cock block us on making any progress, on anything.

Why? Because the way it is now, you have the profits privatized and the losses socialized. Our way the government gets some of the profits too.

what a wingnutty of a post. whoop dee doo! The alternatives I offer are many...if you read the linked material instead of shooting shit off your upper lip...shit from having your head up the fat guy's ass.

Any business that has the government taking on your losses need to share some of your profits with them. Under GOP rule, that'll never happen. And they'll lie on why it is wrong to give the government some of the profits. Meanwhile the treasury is empty and the rich have all gotten richer.

And you aren't rich, you fucking fool.

angry and bitter? do you cling to your guns and god?

You defended staying in iraq because your companies were making money at the tax payers expense. Why leave if you are the corporations? That's why war for profit is bad you stupid idiot!!!

Maybe if you got your head out of your ass, the country wouldn't be in shambles. But when we have to argue with 30% of the population that the earth is round, the politicians know if they can just keep you chicken hawks defending them, then they can get away with anything....

and that includes invading iraq for a fucking lie. Stupid fool.

take a suck pill you dope.

ltr

d.

 

[michiganFats]

Editec, sorry it took so long to reply. I'm very busy Friday night through Saturday afternoon. I'm not going to quote everything back again, I'll just wing it here. First, when you called me out on saying that economics don't matter as far as the government is concerned, you were right. What I should have said was that once the government is involved, the focus isn't so much on operating in the black as it is on mitigating the loss. Second, as far as the slippery slope is concerned, I agree with you, it is a slippery slope. However, I believe that the government will be involved in health care, so the only way to have a say in how it operates is to accept it as reality and base your arguments upon that eventuality. I've been watching a lot of C-span the last few months, and I have watched Pelosi, Reid, Daschle, Kennedy all talk about UHC,and the old Hillarycare plan from 1993 is referenced often. I think that particular plan would be a disaster for this country. Third, I do know how much it costs to be treated for serious illnesses. A mild case of cancer( minor surgery, no chemo,limited radiation), is about $180,000. A typical case( sentinel node procedure, at least one invasive surgery, Radiation, Chemotherapy, extensive drug regimen) goes about $468,000. If you suffer a relapse, go to about $750,000. You aren't the only one who has watched relatives die, my friend. Fourth, I never suggested that everyone should have to repay 100% of the cost, obviously the numbers don't bear that out as possible. That's exactly why I don't want to stick just with insurance providers. I've already outlined my problems with and solutions to the way the providers operate. In closing, and this has nothing to do with anything you have said because I think you've been honest and consistent, I think it's a shame that some people stick to arguments that are flat out wrong(such as the Limbaugh monkeys stating that everyone is already guaranteed health care, or that the Constitution doesn't give the government the right to do it. There are several problems with the second argument). If you inject garbage into a debate, your solution is bound to be garbage. Before I go, thank you for describing my proposed solution as "eccentric". If you had described it as mainstream, I would have had no choice but to start worrying about myself

 

[editec]

Did you hear SCHIP passed? Bush veto'ed it 2 times and Obama will sign it.

And I say we socialize medicine. Fuck tweeking it. And here's why. We are the only industrialized country that doesn't offer its citizens free healthcare.

That and free college education which most civilized nations offer as well. of course.

So, if FREE TRADE and open borders are the way of the future, and we have to compete with these countries, then I think it is only fair our corporations don't have to pay for healthcare when companies in other countries don't have to worry about this expense.

Sadly I don't think the gameplan is to fix America. The gameplan is to bankrupt this nation. HC is, or will become the least of our problems, I think Sealy.

I see absolutely no heroic measures to fix the real problems, like FREE TRADE, deindustrialization, the abortion that our tax policies have become.

All I see is the flight of money out of this nation..the master class is finding other places to invest, but they'll stick around just in case they need more American boys to die so that they can dominate the rest of the world.

Frankly, it's sickening what's happening.

Even more disturbing to me is that a huge percentage of the population, both liberals and conservatives, now, are enabling these crooks.

The American people have been pitted one against the other, neighbor against our neighbor, over issues what are essantially irrelevant to the survival of our nation..GOD, GUNS AND GAYS...the kind of crap that the lil'puts can easily understand and become incensed about, and while we squabble over irrelevncies, the masters rob the nation blind.

If the so called bailout cannot make these people understand what is REALLY going on, I'm not sure anything will.

How many people on this board still think the Ds or Rs have all the answers, if but only the other side didn't screw it up?

Most of them, I think.

 

[michiganFats]

Editec, those are all good points. I actually think you should start a new thread for them. I don't think they have much to do with UHC, but they definitely would draw a response on their own. I for one have been concerned about the black budget and fiscal malfeasance for years.

 

[editec]

Editec, those are all good points. I actually think you should start a new thread for them. I don't think they have much to do with UHC, but they definitely would draw a response on their own. I for one have been concerned about the black budget and fiscal malfeasance for years.

Its' all related, because money we're not spending on HC is getting spent foolishly or sent offshore, instead, Mich.

We can't really fix HC unless we fix the engine that drives our economy, first.

But I understand your point.

Topic drift is a riptide hereabouts.

Mea culpa.

 

[Chris]

Its' all related, because money we're not spending on HC is getting spent foolishly or sent offshore, instead, Mich.

We can't really fix HC unless we fix the engine that drives our economy, first.

But I understand your point.

Topic drift is a riptide hereabouts.

Mea culpa.

Our healthcare system is eating more and more of our economy. 16% of GDP.

The lack of a single payer system is also hurting our competitiveness worldwide. Companies in every other Western democracy do not have to pay for healthcare. This give them a competitive advantage over U.S. companies. Toyota just located a plant in Canada instead of the U.S. because they did not have to pay for worker's healthcare there.

 

[michiganFats]

Once again, something I brought up before. Having employers paying 80% of their workers healthcare costs is a bad idea. the Fats army grows.

 

[Chris]

Once again, something I brought up before. Having employers paying 80% of their workers healthcare costs is a bad idea. the Fats army grows.

Other countries do healthcare much better than we do.

But Americans don't read much.

 

[Zoom-boing]

We already have universal healthcare. It's called the emergency room.

And who pays for this?

 

[Chris]

And who pays for this?

We all do.

That's the point.

 

[KittenKoder]

We all do.

That's the point.

Actually no, they cannot turn you away (except in rare cases) but they do still bill the patient, even the ambulance companies bill the patient. I owed a bunch of money once ... but then they sent it to collections and we don't have to pay collection agencies (it's a funny story really).

 

[Chris]

Actually no, they cannot turn you away (except in rare cases) but they do still bill the patient, even the ambulance companies bill the patient. I owed a bunch of money once ... but then they sent it to collections and we don't have to pay collection agencies (it's a funny story really).

They bill you?

So what?

If you die, or you can't pay, or you declare bankrupcy, or you are an illegal, or if you give a false name, who do you think pays?

How is someone who earns $7 an hour ever going to pay a $100,000 hospital bill?

This is how our version of universal healthcare works. The poor don't get healthcare until they are at death's door, and need the most expensive type of healthcare.

 

[Zoom-boing]

We all do.

That's the point.

Right, so in addition to what we pay for ourselves for healtcare, we also get to foot the bill for those who 'can't' pay. And how is this fair? Health care should be more afforadable for everyone, not have people like me pay for ourselves and for the other guy.

 

[Chris]

Right, so in addition to what we pay for ourselves for healtcare, we also get to foot the bill for those who 'can't' pay. And how is this fair? Health care should be more afforadable for everyone, not have people like me pay for ourselves and for the other guy.

We don't let people bleed to death on the street in this country.

Not yet anyway....

 

[Harry Dresden]

How is someone who earns $7 an hour ever going to pay a $100,000 hospital bill?

shit...how is someone making $25 an hour going to pay that?

 

[Zoom-boing]

shit...how is someone making $25 an hour going to pay that?

They don't, the bill is footed curtesy of joe taxpayer. That's what universal health care is just on a bigger scale.

 

[Gurdari]

The government exists to serve the country as a whole... not for individual needs of every individual within the country... there IS a huge difference between the 2

Heak=lth care does serve the nation as a whole... would you stop socialized police, fire, schooling, etc?

I suppose you would since that is 'interference', no?


Look how many Canadians want to switch to the US model... or Brits, French...etc

 

[Bern80]

Our healthcare system is eating more and more of our economy. 16% of GDP.

The lack of a single payer system is also hurting our competitiveness worldwide. Companies in every other Western democracy do not have to pay for healthcare. This give them a competitive advantage over U.S. companies. Toyota just located a plant in Canada instead of the U.S. because they did not have to pay for worker's healthcare there.

There are a slew of reasons why government run healthcare is not a good idea. here is one that the afvocates of it seem to ignore and that is the governments running them. You're really getting to be a broken record on the whole "every other westernized country' crapola. To believe that what works for A will work for is incredibly naive and lacks a great deal of forsight.

Think for a second Chris. Why do you think so many of us are oppossed to such a system? Because we want more people to suffer? No, it's because we're legitamately worried that more people WILL suffer. The flaw in your 'every other westernized country' argument is that the governments running the system in every other country are NOT the U.S. government, which does pretty much nothing efficiently. In economic terms governments are inherently inefficient at spending money and there is no reason to think there is going to be this miraculous change if government gets it's hand deeper into the health care industry.

there is no accountability for money spent at the government level. No one there saying 'hey we could save some tax payer money if we did this this way' or 'is this a neccessary/wise expendeture?' Milton Friedman broadly prioritized the most efficient way to spend money from most efficient to least;

1)People spending money on themselves.

2)People spending other people's money on themselves.

and last but not least, what our government does

3) Spend other people's money on other people.